Well, it would appear that what I initially thought was an annoying tut from the manifold was actually something considerably more terminal. The top end of my engine now sounds like a tin full of nuts and bolts.
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and put a 2zz in it, my question is this. I dont really want to be throwing more than the £2K or so its already going to cost at the car. I have not long since replaced my gearbox and my clutch has done a thousand miles, so im not looking to change either.
Only issue is its a five speed box and although it bolts straight up to the 2zz everything i have read says no no no no no.
Why?
The ratios are different to account for the higher revs and to help keep you in the lift-band.
So its only about the driving characteristics then? I'm not too bothered about that to be honest. There is nowhere in this country any more where you could keep it lit up in the lift band for more than two gears without risking an S59 or worse any way.
Have you the facility to remove your cam cover and see what's going on? I only ask as your present engine MAY be repairable for much less expense. And, as you say, the opportunity to use the 2ZZ performance is so limited, a repaired 1ZZ ain't so bad? Not much to loose in finding out.
Carolyn
Your keyboard might need servicing. Possibly a sticky o or a non responsive n. :-) :-) :-)
Heads for cover.
The existing engine has been a bug bear since I got the car. It's never felt right and I've come to the conclusion that one of the cams has been a tooth out from when it was rebuilt (badly) before I bought the car, and to be honest a second hand 1zz is just too much of a gamble for the expense and mither of changing the engine.
So I'm not committing any mortal sin putting the five speed back on a 2zz? Just won't be as easy to keep it on the boil? If that is the only reason then I am happy to proceed down that road I think.
Fair enough.
It'll just be like a 1zz,but you'll hit lift when you go over 6200 rpm in each gear. And then out of lift every time you switch gears s:) :) s:)
So I guess you could say that you have more fun because you get to feel lift kick in at every gear change hahaa
Like a 1zz with 50% more power! Or more likely 100% more power than the lump of ineffective pig iron I E got in the back of mine.
Right, I think that's swung it. Better prepare to give my bank account an enema and clear my evenings and weekends in my diary for a little while.
For the £250 plus fettling the 2zz gearbox costs, just do it. You can sell your 5 speed to recoup some cost.
The only reason people say the 2zz is slow is because people put the wrong gearbox on it and it dulls the performance! It's not just the six speed, it's shorter final drive across the board.
That said, get a celica one, the 6th in a corolla box is ridiculously short. Fifth-and-a-bit, really.
+1 don't do the 2zz and not put the right manifold or gearbox in it. Please please please sell your box and put a celica one in it.
Listen to the boys.
I know it's gutting you just replaced the clutch, but it's not worth it.
Having driven a 2zz without the Celica final drive, I can tell you it's a challenge to keep it in lift and the "pull" isn't what you'd hope. Hence I said, it'll be a 1zz.
Also... Isn't the clutch interchangeable? Could swap those and have a new clutch s:) :) s:)
Clutch is interchangeable.
I reused my clutch as it was new
Isn't £250 for a six speed box a bit optimistic?
The clutches are interchangeable, and its an exedy so no question marks over quality or it handling the additional power.
Nope 250 is definitely doable. Incl lsd.
Have a chat with Dean from Rutland MR2 (breaker section)
Also, I know it's a bit niche but the 5speed boxes can be popular among the track folk. So it might be easier to shift than you think if you put it up in the right place
Just thought, Dean doesn't break Celicas /Corollas so someone like Sam Nadeem or the likes would be your best bet
2zz Gearbox fitted with longer 6th, currently for sale on Celica Club for £200
Quote from: "J03"2zz Gearbox fitted with longer 6th, currently for sale on Celica Club for £200
Which club would that be? I might go for that.
Just my opinion but a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.
If you aren't going to fit the proper ratio gearbox it's pointless imho.
You don't seem to bothered about extra power anyway so why not spend the Dosh on a properly rebuilt 1zz.
Of course I'm bothered about the extra power! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: The point I was trying to make I suppose is that it seems to me that you will only feel the benefit of the six speed box when you are driving at nine tenths and above.
Anyway, I have taken the advice and am coming at it from a slightly different angle. Currently watching a couple of t-sport celicas on ebay. It will work out fat cheaper that way and at least I'll know if the engines a goodun by the time I've driven it home.
Do as much as is within your capabilities to check over and service any engine you decide to put in. There is no other time you can get to it all as easily.
It may seem like extra expense but clutch, chain tensioner, aux belt and tensioner, oil pump, water pump, camcover off and lift bolts, measure tolerances, check for cam wipe (common prob). Pull sump off, measure tolerances and check for slack.
If you can, head off and check bores.
It's all so "easy" with the engine out and it'll never be as "easy" or cheap again.
A gearbox is a torque multiplier. Look at the torque profile of a 2zz, it's almost identical to a 1zz (until 6,200 rpm). The net result.of a 2zz spinning a 5 speed gearbox is that at any given rpm, you will be putting the same torque to the road as a 1zz and have no advantage!
Calculate the fact that a 2zz has a 25% rev headline advantage and a 25% shortening of gear ratios makes complete sense: you're putting more torque to the tarmac at every point, because your higher revving, higher performance engine is being geared down more.
Your 8 second to 60 car has just become a 5 second car due to synergy of engine, gearbox and physics.
Do it right, or stick with 1zz.
Quote from: "JoeCool"A gearbox is a torque multiplier. Look at the torque profile of a 2zz, it's almost identical to a 1zz (until 6,200 rpm). The net result.of a 2zz spinning a 5 speed gearbox is that at any given rpm, you will be putting the same torque to the road as a 1zz and have no advantage!
Calculate the fact that a 2zz has a 25% rev headline advantage and a 25% shortening of gear ratios makes complete sense: you're putting more torque to the tarmac at every point, because your higher revving, higher performance engine is being geared down more.
Your 8 second to 60 car has just become a 5 second car due to synergy of engine, gearbox and physics.
Do it right, or stick with 1zz.
Beautifully put
Don't forget it is a 5 speed 'box he has now, not a 6 speed, so it is actually quite low geared already.
On the same tyres the comparative gearing (mph/1000rpm) is as follows:
1 2 3 4 5 6 gears:
1zz 6 speed: 5.6 9.3 13.6 18.4 21.9 24.5 This is not good for a 2zz.
2zz 6 speed 4.9 7.5 10.5 13.3 16.9 19 Obviously ideal but;
1zz 5 speed 5.1 8.5 11.7 15.8 20
1st, 2nd and 3rd are pretty close to the 2zz gears and that gets you all the way from 0mph up to 99mph at 8,500rpm, plus you get a slightly higher top gear too.
It's more the final drive isn't it?
Yes mainly, although some of the other ratios are lower than the 1zz too.
You could bring the gearing down a bit further if necessary by using PFL wheels and tyres.
How about using 215/40 16 tyres and getting:
4.96 8.25 11.28 15.24 19.27
That runs to 96mph at 8,500 in 3rd and still provides a slightly higher top gear than the standard 2zz 'box. I doubt you would ever notice any performance difference to the 2zz 'box below 100mph.
Not bad for a free 'box?
Quote from: "lamcote"Don't forget it is a 5 speed 'box he has now, not a 6 speed, so it is actually quite low geared already.
On the same tyres the comparative gearing (mph/1000rpm) is as follows:
1 2 3 4 5 6 gears:
1zz 6 speed: 5.6 9.3 13.6 18.4 21.9 24.5 This is not good for a 2zz.
2zz 6 speed 4.9 7.5 10.5 13.3 16.9 19 Obviously ideal but;
1zz 5 speed 5.1 8.5 11.7 15.8 20
1st, 2nd and 3rd are pretty close to the 2zz gears and that gets you all the way from 0mph up to 99mph at 8,500rpm, plus you get a slightly higher top gear too.
Not sure where you got your numbers from but the U.K. 1ZZ Roadster had the same ratios 1st to 5th in both the 5 & 6 speed boxes. 6th was more of an overdrive.
You'd better tell them:
m https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission) m
Quote from: "lamcote"You'd better tell them:
m https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission) m
Lol - trusting a WiKi to have accurate data s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Even if you are right and the ratios are the same, you still get the following with 215/40x16 and 4.312 final drive:
4.96 8.25 11.99 16.2 19.27
3rd now runs to 102mph, possibly better for some?
Which is still pretty great for a free 'box.
Im on 205/50/15 rears.
If the UK uses the 3.9 final drive then you will need to swap in the 4.3 final drive to get the benefit.
I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon. I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line. A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does. And an extra 50% poke to boot.
Quote from: "wallzaveerz"I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon. I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line. A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does. And an extra 50% poke to boot.
The lottery applies almost just as much mate. Remember that cars with 2zzs will have been absolutely ragged. Lift very obviously kicks in at 6200 so it becomes almost a sport to keep it up there.
Take my 1zz for example. Burns nothing and I am NOT nice to it. And I'm running quite aggressive timing through my emanage.
It's a pretty strong engine.
Quote from: "shnazzle"Quote from: "wallzaveerz"I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon. I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line. A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does. And an extra 50% poke to boot.
The lottery applies almost just as much mate. Remember that cars with 2zzs will have been absolutely ragged. Lift very obviously kicks in at 6200 so it becomes almost a sport to keep it up there.
Take my 1zz for example. Burns nothing and I am NOT nice to it. And I'm running quite aggressive timing through my emanage.
It's a pretty strong engine.
So true you can't do a 2ZZ swop on the cheap anymore engine will need work not just a straight bung it in
For a road car I'd say low boost turbo is a far better option and you don't have to rag the nuts off it IMO 2ZZ is more a track car option
Any used engine, 1ZZ, 2ZZ, Honda, whatever, (unless it's extremely low mileage) is a gamble until it's been opened up and examined. A fresh 1ZZ is as reliable as any other. I've rebuilt quite few of these and, while they have their design flaws (oil control mostly), once they are gone through, they are good for many miles and they will take a lot of hard use. I'm not a fan of the long single row chain or the bucket-shims on the valves, but that's common to both the 1ZZ and 2ZZ.
If you want the 'S 2000' style of high revving power, by all means do go for the 2ZZ.
Quote from: "wallzaveerz"I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon. I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line. A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does. And an extra 50% poke to boot.
I think this really depends on how you drive for the majority of the time. If you are happy driving round at 6000rpm and above then yes, you may well experience a 50% increase in power. But in reality, are you likely to drive around like this for the majority of the time? If not, then I don't believe you car will feel any more powerful.
I imagine it will be a bit thirstier though. Have you factored in having to advise your insurance company and any extra premium / hassle that might be involved?
I also think there's a fair bit more to swapping to a 2ZZ than it first seems - ECU swap, the aforementioned gearbox decisions and most donor engines should really be opened up first to check all is good inside - you can't do that until you've bought it and if it isn't a 'good un' that's more time and money that will need to be spent.
A good replacement 1ZZ should be had for around the £450 mark (there was one on here a while ago), then lots of the other issues disappear. It's cheaper and any savings could be invested in other areas, suspension for instance.
I'm not trying to put you off, just decide if that's what you really want and go in with your eyes wide open. Good luck either way.
All of which returns one to finding out what's wrong with the engine you've got. If it's not utterly terminal, a rebuild of that one is the most reliable inexpensive option. The work of dropping and replacing the engine goes with all alternatives. Once the engine is out you have nothing to lose by opening it up and finding out what the story is. That way you may not have to buy a used engine (which should be opened up before it goes in anyway...). I suppose it does depend on whether you have the tools/facilities to drop the engine yourself.
In a complete about turn Im not bothering with the 2zz. After much debating I am staying with a 1zz, I am however having a six speed fitted while its out. So basically the complete mirror opposite of what I originally set out to do.
Quote from: "wallzaveerz"In a complete about turn Im not bothering with the 2zz. After much debating I am staying with a 1zz, I am however having a six speed fitted while its out. So basically the complete mirror opposite of what I originally set out to do.
Good look luck with it.
For what it's worth, I think you've made the right decision.
I wouldn't want to drive around on public roads having to hit 6000rpm to get the most out of an engine.
Makes more sense in a track day biased Car.
Cheers, I got to thinking about when the last time was that I took it out and really wrung it's neck, and I can't remember. The 2zz is simply too highly strung for what I use my car for, certainly when you factor in the additional cost and/or mither needed to achieve putting it in there. Thanks for all the advice guys, it has undoubtedly stopped me making a costly, highly disappointing faux pas.
Got there in the end. Brain in gear!!
I feel much the same. My 1ZZ gives me all I want for the driving I realistically do.
I think you've made the right choice. Also, the world osnt exactly awash with good or cheap 2Zz's right now: I think finding (or rebuilding) a 1zz will prove much easier and cheaper.
Another one here for well done on making the right choice s:) :) s:)
I've been there. Even got a Celica breaker on the drive to do it. Luckily for me the engine was destroyed haha. That was before I drove a 2zz.
While "lift" is great and yes it is a bit faster in lift, getting there and hearing the engine screaming constantly felt a bit unnerving.
Under the lift band it didn't feel faster than my moderately modified 1zz.
So I owe the person who's car I drove a big one s:) :) s:)
Find someone who will let you drive a 2zz like it should and then you:ll know if it's for you.
As you know, tons of people love it. Tons don't
Quote from: "1979scotte"a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.
I couldn't agree less, to be honest.
1ZZ isn't a bad, unreliable engine, but it's very well documented that the 2ZZ is leagues above in the reliability stakes.
I'm not saying that you won't find a bad 2ZZ, you will. But I will guarantee that there is a lower %age of 2ZZs that are goosed, compared to 1ZZs.
Quote from: "Alex Knight"Quote from: "1979scotte"a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.
I couldn't agree less, to be honest.
1ZZ isn't a bad, unreliable engine, but it's very well documented that the 2ZZ is leagues above in the reliability stakes.
I'm not saying that you won't find a bad 2ZZ, you will. But I will guarantee that there is a lower %age of 2ZZs that are goosed, compared to 1ZZs.
Not saying I disagree, but it's a difficult comparison as there are so many more 1ZZ's around in the first place...
Quote from: "Alex Knight"Quote from: "1979scotte"a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.
I couldn't agree less, to be honest.
1ZZ isn't a bad, unreliable engine, but it's very well documented that the 2ZZ is leagues above in the reliability stakes.
I'm not saying that you won't find a bad 2ZZ, you will. But I will guarantee that there is a lower %age of 2ZZs that are goosed, compared to 1ZZs.
Most 1zz just have oil control problems.
Very few are completely FUBAR.
2zz are very reliable apart from the ones that aren't.
New Lift bolts anyone?
How many more 1zz are there than 2zz?
I think as a percentage actual blown engines I think both would be similar.
I prefer my 1mz to either. Not that it's any more reliable. They have oil issues too.
Well its in for open heart surgery as I type so fingers crossed. It's been such an underpowered dog from day 1, not even convinced it was the correct 140bhp engine to begin with, that I'm hopeful it will feel like night and day anyway.
Bit late, but Wikipedia figures are same as these:
[attachment=0:yehevg86] ia0 Ratios.jpg ia0 [/attachment:yehevg86]
and 1st to 5th are the same in five and six speed boxes for 1ZZ.
I could have sworn the final drives were different for 5 vs 6 speed... They're not.
Odd.
I guess the increased "oomph" on the 5speed must be the 15in wheel in the back?