Hi guys, where is the best place to locate the intercooler if you turbo a 2zz? I know a chargecooler would probably be better but will work out more expensive.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 6, 2018, 11:38
Hi guys, where is the best place to locate the intercooler if you turbo a 2zz? I know a chargecooler would probably be better but will work out more expensive.
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Probably the same location as mine I'd reckon. If I did it again I'd probably get a charge air cooler though.
Who's putting a turbo on a 2zz?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181106/8e927082aa7cd88c1835944db290ab5d.jpg)
For reference.
I am
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That's an unusual spot!
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Quote from: michaelb on November 6, 2018, 12:32
I am
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2zz just wasn't enough then [emoji23]
What's the plans then? I'm not fully in the know with 2zz turbo but thought it was ill advised because of huge air flow or something?
It was something I thought about myself tbh.
Personally I don't see anywhere else that an IC will work.
On the dyno I was getting 50 degrees highs on a 30 degree day. And that's probably the hottest an engine will ever get.
Normal driving it's not that bad tbh. About 40 degree temps on the same day driving down the motorway.
I'm at the early stages, just putting some thoughts together. My mate who did the 2zz swap with me, doesn't seem to think there would be any specific issues with turboing it and he's a race tuner, but I will certainly chat to him about it. I spoke to Lee at Se7en and he even sells a kit to turbo the 2zz, so it must be fairly straightforward. I may have to consider a chargecooler though
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Quote from: michaelb on November 6, 2018, 12:43
I'm at the early stages, just putting some thoughts together. My mate who did the 2zz swap with me, doesn't seem to think there would be any specific issues with turboing it and he's a race tuner, but I will certainly chat to him about it. I spoke to Lee at Se7en and he even sells a kit to turbo the 2zz, so it must be fairly straightforward. I may have to consider a chargecooler though
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It is categorically EASY to do the work.
It's just the planning. I'm sure someone here will know the crack. I think it'll take a relatively big turbo compared to the 1zz.
I had considered the supercharger but my mate reckons the engine is ripe for a turbo. He did say locating the intercooler may require some out of the box thinking though!
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Quote from: michaelb on November 6, 2018, 12:57
I had considered the supercharger but my mate reckons the engine is ripe for a turbo. He did say locating the intercooler may require some out of the box thinking though!
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Hmmm. Fair one.
I wonder what the power curve would look like on that?
Not sure yet lol I've stage 2 cams already installed so that should effect it too
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I am new to mr2 roadster ownership but i know i will need more grunt, dont really want to do an engine swap on what seems a really nice car, so a turbo beckons. Looking at it seems 3 choices, scoop on the roof funneling air down (no dont think so), a fan sucking air in from somewhere (just an extra thing to sort out) or a charge cooler..yeah..
Quote from: 105e on November 6, 2018, 13:16
I am new to mr2 roadster ownership but i know i will need more grunt, dont really want to do an engine swap on what seems a really nice car, so a turbo beckons. Looking at it seems 3 choices, scoop on the roof funneling air down (no dont think so), a fan sucking air in from somewhere (just an extra thing to sort out) or a charge cooler..yeah..
Theres no doubt charge cooler is the best choice. But now that I've put some miles in the kit I can say that an inter cooler does work pretty well.
I only really notice the heat soak affecting performance when I've been sat in traffic on a hot day.
I'll have a good think about it all!
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There's no high pressure points at the back of the car to make air>air cooling ideal. As a note, you really want as little air under the car as possible (for aerodynamics) so having an IC with air fed from the underside (this will still be a low pressure area anyway) is counterproductive.
Ideally want it to be as cold as possible.
If you're after power use a charge cooler. Water to air to at the front (where a rad is in a high pressure area) using a +12v pump (on with ignition) to pull the water back to an air to water matrix somewhere around the battery area. Colder air is more dense with more oxygen within it, increases power and reduces things like det, oil temp, exhaust temp.
This is absolutely true. A charge cooler is for the win.
But...this has just thrown up something to me.
Not do delve into the innards, a couple of my friends were building a system to monitor the air pressure at different points on an aerofoil.
The system used a raspberry pi and some coding.
Whilst I'm in this situation I think I may employ the knowledge of some instructors and knock up an arduino with the relevant hardware to monitor and record the pressure at a given point. Then use this to get actual hard facts rather than very educated guesswork.
If I do this soon I'll let ya'll know and get any requests whilst I'm at it. I'm probably going to borrow the kit so won't have very long to use it.
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2012-01-1044/
Interesting read. Not very long or in depth but gets the point across.
That is an interesting article mate.
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TTE put theres under the gearbox
I suppose you just put it where the air is coolest and avoids the heat of the engine and turbo
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Quote from: pauls0212 on November 6, 2018, 17:30
TTE put theres under the gearbox
I honestly think TTE got it wrong [emoji23]
That's not in anyway a dig at you by the way.
When Greg was tuning mine after tuning helens sp240 beast he noted the intake temps were much better. I think it's down to core size tbh.
And I'll test this area if I get the chance.
Do the job once and do it properly.
Charge cooler is the proper way.
You'll need a much bigger turbo than a 1zz one of the larger GT28xx maybe even a gt30xx.
Remember you've got much stronger internals than a 1zz but the transmission is still the week spot. That's why a rotrex works so well. You make make 350bhp and still keep the torque around the 250 mark.
Think about things carefully. You've already done a 2zz swap and found it wanting are you sure going FI is what you want or would you be better off cutting your loses and buying a Cayman S.
I could have bought a Porsche if I wanted a Porsche mate, I had an MR2 Roadster as my first car and it's a bit of a nostalgia thing with me. I always loved the wee car, but I always wanted to give it a bit more. The 2zz is great, no complaints at all but I had always envisaged turboing or supercharging it. I'm also doing a lot of work to the exterior and interior. I want to make a pretty unique beast!
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I'm chuffed someone's willing to push the envelope a bit and strap a turbo to a 2zz. Definitely been done before with epic results. Yes gearbox is an issue but can be overcome.
As for stg2 cams; thats the only part that may need to be swapped for a more turbo-friendly profile.
Keep oil temps under control as well as air (charge for sure with radiator in front) . Mishimoto coolant radiator or something with solid alloy tanks. Check crank case ventilation and make sure you're never in danger of pressurising the crank case. Oil catch can.
And.. Key.. Get a good standalone. Go for the best you can afford with as many inputs as you can find. Oil temp and pressure, WBO, EGT, IAT.
The standalone I have can do everything mate, not an issue there. I'm discussing it at the minute with my mate as to what we can do. He seems to think we can make do with an intercooler with some clever ducking.
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If you have the contact details of anyone that has already done this, I'd appreciate them! Lol
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And Lee Mabbet reckons the cams will be of benefit to the turbo
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Quote from: michaelb on November 6, 2018, 21:12
And Lee Mabbet reckons the cams will be of benefit to the turbo
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That's interesting because they make separate cams for NA and FI wonder why they bother?
You can make do with an intercooler no doubt. It will most likely be the weak point of your setup if it doesn't make the power you expect. Again.
Have you thought about injectors yet? Going to need a lot more fuel with all that extra air.
Unique is difficult expensive and generally unreliable.
I should know I've got the only 3.0L V6 Rotrex Mk3 in the country and possibly the world.
I'm confident it will be worth it in the end but that Cayman S would have cost me less and been more reliable that's for sure.
Sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do.
Hope it turns out to be what you want.
I have a really smart guy helping me here with the project, which gives me confidence! I know the money side will never add up but I'm doing it for me rather than to sell on. I love it when people stop and ask what type of car is it and say how much they like it!
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I haven't thought about the injectors yet but agree they will need to be able to meet the needs! There will be quite a few bits a pieces which will need to be modified and changed but that's the fun of it! My mate reckons the gearbox should be ok but the clutch will definitely need upgrading. He is going to take a much closer look at everything over the next week or so. He knows what he's on about as he has an 800bhp supra he built and it's as reliable as the day is long!
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The gearbox dies after 250lbf, mating 2zz to lets say garrett 2871 will do over 400 hp and at that point if you launch your car its done deal. Sort the gearbox and then think injectors and stuff. I saw a post of 500 hp 2zz on pump gas but it was in US and i tend to think that their numbers are quite a bit buffed for what is the real picture. Just something to think on.. some guy shredded his 3rd gear with just 260 hp.
So the 2zz gearbox, which I'm using, can't take more than 250flb? I'm surprised at that tbh.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 7, 2018, 09:08
So the 2zz gearbox, which I'm using, can't take more than 250flb? I'm surprised at that tbh.
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Stock 2zz is rated at 130ish torque. Where is the surprise that it will break if you double it? This is not some diesel gearbox and you can find the numbers all over the internet :) Read on m1tch's build, he is going to use Juba/Jubu gears i dont remember the name that are rated at some more. Unless you want to go through boxes every other month what you can do is:
1. Keep the torque down and dont launch the car, 1979scotte i think suggested a supercharger that would keep the torque down.
2. Go to e153 box but your wallet will not thank you for that. Also earlier boxes are prone to syncro failing i think so ideally you would need a box from the latest models.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 7, 2018, 08:32
Quote from: michaelb on November 6, 2018, 21:12
And Lee Mabbet reckons the cams will be of benefit to the turbo
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That's interesting because they make separate cams for NA and FI wonder why they bother?
You can make do with an intercooler no doubt. It will most likely be the weak point of your setup if it doesn't make the power you expect. Again.
Have you thought about injectors yet? Going to need a lot more fuel with all that extra air.
Unique is difficult expensive and generally unreliable.
I should know I've got the only 3.0L V6 Rotrex Mk3 in the country and possibly the world.
I'm confident it will be worth it in the end but that Cayman S would have cost me less and been more reliable that's for sure.
Sometimes you've got to do what you've got to do.
Hope it turns out to be what you want.
Crower do a separate cam for 1zz FI but not the 2zz, just the same stages as the NA versions.
I know because MWR have a sale on 2zz cams at the moment but not 1zz, typical...
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Torque can also be controlled by the correct boost control strategy. I'm not aiming at stupid numbers for bhp, probably the 'magic' number of 300.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 7, 2018, 10:54
Torque can also be controlled by the correct boost control strategy. I'm not aiming at stupid numbers for bhp, probably the 'magic' number of 300.
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Go Rotrex with Mahle pistons and water to air, problem solved. The magic number in our light cars is comparable to some of the super cars, talking BHP per tonne.
Your mate is a very knowledgeable guy I am sure but every engine is different.
2jz and the getrag transmissions in Supras are amazingly strong.
C series transmissions are week we know they survive 250 ish ftlb over that it will depend on how you drive and how gently the torque ramps up.
2zz is better than the 1zz in this regard being very torque light in relation to the bhp.
Quote from: dan944 on November 6, 2018, 17:32
Quote from: pauls0212 on November 6, 2018, 17:30
TTE put theres under the gearbox
I honestly think TTE got it wrong [emoji23]
Tbh Dan for the modest 180 ish that the TTE kicks out it's fine it's SP that should have found a better solution. Don't know want my intake temps were on my SP but bet they were awful.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 7, 2018, 11:26
Quote from: dan944 on November 6, 2018, 17:32
Quote from: pauls0212 on November 6, 2018, 17:30
TTE put theres under the gearbox
I honestly think TTE got it wrong [emoji23]
Tbh Dan for the modest 180 ish that the TTE kicks out it's fine it's SP that should have found a better solution. Don't know want my intake temps were on my SP but bet they were awful.
Actually I completely agree. I'll get the logger connected up next time I take the motor out and check how my temps are during these cooler days.
Out of interest what is the 'fix' for the gearbox? Swapping to a stronger one?
My guy says the gearbox should 100% without having to do anything
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Quote from: michaelb on November 9, 2018, 15:31
My guy says the gearbox should 100% without having to do anything
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Until we see you here asking for a new tranny :) Have a look its all over the internet these boxes are weak.
The 2zz box too?
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And you can control the torque with boost management
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2zz box, which is the C60, should take 175flb easily
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And I'm only looking at a max of 280-300hp. I want the engine etc to be reliable!
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280-300 at the flywheel with very sympathetic boost control and user input and the gearbox "should" be OK.
Quote from: james_ly on November 9, 2018, 15:29
Out of interest what is the 'fix' for the gearbox? Swapping to a stronger one?
A good map is the most important thing.
Jubu 3rd and 4th gears have proven to be much stronger than the 265 ftlb they're rated for.
I have an S54 on my V6 which I am hoping will be good up to 300 ftlb. Bigger and heavier than the C6X boxes we have.
E153 is massive and hugely heavy but will cope with anything you're going to throw at it in MR2. Probably.
Anybody got a good lead on a turbo? I've got a 2zz turbo manifold from turbokits with a T2 flange.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 9, 2018, 22:09
Anybody got a good lead on a turbo? I've got a 2zz turbo manifold from turbokits with a T2 flange.
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What does your GUY reckon?
GTX2860R would be my choice most probably but they ain't cheap.
To be honest, he wanted me to get a tubular manifold and fit a T3 turbo but costs have restricted me to a cast manifold.
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I don't know why you referred to him like that mate? Bit unnecessary!
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Quote from: michaelb on November 9, 2018, 22:16
To be honest, he wanted me to get a tubular manifold and fit a T3 turbo but costs have restricted me to a cast manifold.
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Cast is BETTER they very rarely crack.
T3 is larger but unnecessary with your power goals.
I was just about to recommend the BW EFR6258 but that's even more expensive.
Go for a Chinese copy off of eBay gt2871 equivalent. They cheap.
Quote from: michaelb on November 9, 2018, 22:20
I don't know why you referred to him like that mate? Bit unnecessary!
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Possibly because I think he knows about 2jz but very little about 2zz or their gearboxes.
You've already done a 2zz swap and been disappointed ( not the first to do that ) I don't want you to get burned.
Sorry.
Oh I'm not disappointed mate, it's a really nice engine and drives really well. I always had the intention of turboing it. I would be a little worried about the Chinese copies though. I've heard they aren't great quality at all and can easily go bang?
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Has anyone got any success stories using the Chinese copies?
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Quote from: michaelb on November 9, 2018, 22:55
Has anyone got any success stories using the Chinese copies?
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There was a video on it a while back that I watched. The conclusion basically was that yes they work, until they don't. And then you've spent 2x turbo and possibly fixing damage to your engine, when you could have just spent 1.5x the money on a proper turbo and have a lot less chance of issues.
The 2860R is pretty darn bulletproof.
It's more like 8x the price to be honest lol but yes, I have looked at that turbo. I'm also looking at this - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F263995804676
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 09:01
It's more like 8x the price to be honest lol but yes, I have looked at that turbo. I'm also looking at this - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F263995804676
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To be honest i think you need quite a lot of reading on all these stuff that you are asking questions on. This is diesel turbo and it needs a lot more psi to flow. There are a lot of turbo builds on the internet that will give you base idea what is going to work and how. Dont mind the us guys that are showing crazy whp numbers, these are not real but the setups are up on google. For intercooler check porsche 911 turbo setup behind the wheel and pick your turbo Chinese or not. Usually holsets are quite popular in big engine builds but are laggier than the ball bearing turbos. If you want to give 500 quids for holset id save some more cash and get garrett 2860. It will be easy to blow your gearbox with either of these...
Bottom line: builds and the engineering is done on real cars just use google. Sure we can chat and so on but your guy who is building petrol engines that were supposed to be diesel ones is not qualified to say this and that for 2zz and cXX boxes.
I'm considering a Garrett T2560
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 11:15
I'm considering a Garrett T2560
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Not big enough for a 2zz IMHO.
That is then sort of size a 1zz would be happy with.
Think about how much more air a 2zz needs to flow. It makes 50 more bhp from basically the same cubic capacity.
The smallest I would go would be a GT2860RS around £800 for a genuine one.
I have read old posts that say bigger than that but so few people go 2zz turbo on this forum I'm not sure.
From my own experience trying to do things on the cheap usually ends up costing more
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 10, 2018, 12:06
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 11:15
I'm considering a Garrett T2560
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Not big enough for a 2zz IMHO.
That is then sort of size a 1zz would be happy with.
Think about how much more air a 2zz needs to flow. It makes 50 more bhp from basically the same cubic capacity.
The smallest I would go would be a GT2860RS around £800 for a genuine one.
I have read old posts that say bigger than that but so few people go 2zz turbo on this forum I'm not sure.
From my own experience trying to do things on the cheap usually ends up costing more
I would also say 2860 as minimum. 2554 is rated at max of around 300hp but you don't really any to be running it at the limit all the time for longevity.
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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I know some one who will know the very best turbo to put on a 2zz and that would be Greg.
I just honestly think it may be too small. Purely based on air flow
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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Go to the Garrett website.
Look up GT2560.
It's a 270 bhp turbo max in ideal conditions.
Which a mid engine car with a intercooler is not.
Perhaps try looking a turbos that people fit to Honda k20 engines as they are a highly tuned 4 pots.
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 12:25
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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I know some one who will know the very best turbo to put on a 2zz and that would be Greg.
I just honestly think it may be too small. Purely based on air flow
Very good point. You need to get in touch with Greg at RRR. He's a 2zz expert
Quote from: shnazzle on November 10, 2018, 13:31
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 12:25
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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I know some one who will know the very best turbo to put on a 2zz and that would be Greg.
I just honestly think it may be too small. Purely based on air flow
Very good point. You need to get in touch with Greg at RRR. He's a 2zz expert
And he's a wizard
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 13:32
Quote from: shnazzle on November 10, 2018, 13:31
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 12:25
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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I know some one who will know the very best turbo to put on a 2zz and that would be Greg.
I just honestly think it may be too small. Purely based on air flow
Very good point. You need to get in touch with Greg at RRR. He's a 2zz expert
And he's a wizard
And generally quite a sexy guy ;) @Greg rrr (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25389)
Quote from: shnazzle on November 10, 2018, 13:39
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 13:32
Quote from: shnazzle on November 10, 2018, 13:31
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 12:25
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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I know some one who will know the very best turbo to put on a 2zz and that would be Greg.
I just honestly think it may be too small. Purely based on air flow
Very good point. You need to get in touch with Greg at RRR. He's a 2zz expert
And he's a wizard
And generally quite a sexy guy ;) @Greg rrr (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25389)
I've noticed a trend of male appreciation posts Patrick. Should Helen be concerned? [emoji23]
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 13:43
Quote from: shnazzle on November 10, 2018, 13:39
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 13:32
Quote from: shnazzle on November 10, 2018, 13:31
Quote from: dan944 on November 10, 2018, 12:25
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 12:16
T2560 is rated at 330 though
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I know some one who will know the very best turbo to put on a 2zz and that would be Greg.
I just honestly think it may be too small. Purely based on air flow
Very good point. You need to get in touch with Greg at RRR. He's a 2zz expert
And he's a wizard
And generally quite a sexy guy ;) @Greg rrr (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=25389)
I've noticed a trend of male appreciation posts Patrick. Should Helen be concerned? [emoji23]
Haha. It's most certainly not a trend!
A trend is people trying to squeeze crazy power out of an efficiency engine (not 2zz). Me actively making people feel a bit uncomfortable is just laughs all round :) haha
Ok, so I've been chatting to Lewis and he has told me that the GT2560 is actually what some people know as the T28 (depending on where you are in the community). He has told me that the GT2560, non high spool turbo will push out 340bhp, whereas the high spool runs out below 300.
This is nothing short of a minefield
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 14:01
Ok, so I've been chatting to Lewis and he has told me that the GT2560 is actually what some people know as the T28 (depending on where you are in the community). He has told me that the GT2560, non high spool turbo will push out 340bhp, whereas the high spool runs out below 300.
This is nothing short of a minefield
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Dan has a gt2554r on his 1zz and made 209 whp god knows how a gt2560 could make that sort of power even on a 2zz.
I only refer to turbos by they're manufacturer designations to avoid the whole T25 T28 confusion.
You need to talk to Seven motorsports or RRR Engineering.
For an extreme novice like myself, I find this all very confusing and difficult. I'm getting conflicting opinions from all corners. I am heavily reliant on what people are telling me (which I make no excuses for), and really don't know which way to turn. I have spoken to several of these people you referred to and they are very knowledgeable, but keep pointing me to very expensive kit such as £1200 tubular manifolds and £1500 turbo's. I know this can be done more cheaply but not 'on the cheap'. I want some help to try and get a decent amount of power without spending a small fortune.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 16:28
For an extreme novice like myself, I find this all very confusing and difficult. I'm getting conflicting opinions from all corners. I am heavily reliant on what people are telling me (which I make no excuses for), and really don't know which way to turn. I have spoken to several of these people you referred to and they are very knowledgeable, but keep pointing me to very expensive kit such as £1200 tubular manifolds and £1500 turbo's. I know this can be done more cheaply but not 'on the cheap'. I want some help to try and get a decent amount of power without spending a small fortune.
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An EFR turbo would be exceptional, but if you're budgeting (like I did) a Garret is undeniably the best option IMO. Going as cheap as a Chinese replica may be fine and last forever, but is that a risk you want to take.
I swore from the start that I'd pay out for a brand new, good quality turbo on the buy right or buy twice basis. And in reality. Once you add delivery and import tax. There wasnt a massive difference in price. Not when you're dealing with the pedigree that comes with the likes of Garrett-Honeywell.
Unless you know someone who has turbo'd a 2zz and can speak to them about it, it's all judgement and estimation.
Personally I think 2zz with gt2860r bolted on and the cooling extras we talked about would be an epic car.
But...it would still be limited by the gearbox to about 250lbft without very sympathetic driving. That's just fact.
Lots and lots to consider mate. You don't have to go to 300hp right now though. Just because the gearbox limits you. It doesn't mean you can't fit everything that will handle your goal power figures and just limit the tuning for now. Until you decide your gearbox plan.
I'm looking at a refurbished turbo from Lewis Winpenny. He is the one advising me that the GT2560 would more than meet my needs of 280-300hp. He has asked loads of questions regarding my current 2zz around my stage 2 cams and am I increasing my rev limit. He has more expensive turbo's for sale but isn't pushing them on me as he says this one will work fine.
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The turbo specs on turbodynamics day the 2560r is good for up to 270hp.
The 2860r is good up to 360
They are definitely two different turbos. The 2560 isn't much different to the 2554.
I have another car with the 2860. And it's huge in comparison.
I can get a GT2860, will that be ok for me?
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Bear in mind it's not just about top end power mate.
The 2zz flows a lot more than the 1zz but still you have to make sure you've got the turbo matched up to the flow capacity of the block to make it a pleasant drive.
You could end up in a situation where you don't see much power until you're reaching top end Rpm.
It's not easy, and you're very right to take the "I don't know what's best, so will enquire from others" approach.
The 2554r matches the 1zz very nicely but is too small for 2zz, despite what the max power figure quotes.
The 2560 is getting there. The 2860r really maximises the efficiency of the turbo vs the flow capability of the 2zz.
Helen's car (now for sale, Jack), has a smaller turbo than the 2554 in Dan's. While they make similar power, Dan's does so with much more ease, lower EGTs, lower psi and lower stress on the turbo.
The 2jz is a flowing monster. It's layout also lends itself to more flexibility around turbo selection. The 2zz (especially with lift) is a bit more fussy. Get it right and you have a weapon. Get it wrong and you're really trying your already high comp engine.
(remember, 2zz is 12:1 compression. High comp+turbo is not the best combo).
Mitch Dore on YouTube has a turbo 2zz. Maybe worth a look see?
I can get a 2860, I'll go with that then
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How much for the refurbished turbo?
Brand new GT2860RS or GT2871R are under £800
I have had issues with refurbished turbos myself Im not the only one.
If you don't have the cash why not wait until you do.
I can get a refurbished GT2860 for around 350-400
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Not sure about the RS bit at the end though. I know it's a journal bearing turbo
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 18:08
Not sure about the RS bit at the end though. I know it's a journal bearing turbo
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Turbo dynamics do ball bearing gt2860r for £650. I believe they give a much better spool. I went for the Ball bearing turbo.
Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 18:08
Not sure about the RS bit at the end though. I know it's a journal bearing turbo
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GT2860RS has the quickest spool of any 28xx turbo.
It's ball bearing and I wouldn't cut corners and go journal it's old tech.
Any Garrett turbo that ends in R is ball bearing FYI.
Take a step back.
Only you know what you can afford and how long it will take you to save.
Give yourself sometime to understand turbos and how they work so you get what you actually want.
This whole process doesn't need to be a rush. Take your time to learn. Take your time to save. Do it right first time. Many have failed to build the car they want and have spent over the odds. You can either learn the hard way or the easy way. Everyone above has done an incredible amount of research into this topic.
I also concur a minimum gt2860 for a 2ZZ.
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Unfortunately patience has never been a virtue of mine mate lol I am going to get the GT2860 and I can get it with either an A/R 0.64 or A/R 0.86. I think I'll go for the 0.86. In addition, I can get the billet upgraded, which I think I'll do to.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 19:09
Unfortunately patience has never been a virtue of mine mate lol I am going to get the GT2860 and I can get it with either an A/R 0.64 or A/R 0.86. I think I'll go for the 0.86. In addition, I can get the billet upgraded, which I think I'll do to.
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Would go with the 0.86 with the 2zz too.
What exactly is the billet upgraded?
An upgrade of the billet is lighter and provides a quicker spool, plus the blades can have the angle adjusted to be more aggressive if you want
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All this effort I'd just go buy the 2860rs.if I was to re do a turbo kit I'd spend all I can on the turbo.
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I can get all this for £400 though, so worth the effort!
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 19:16
An upgrade of the billet is lighter and provides a quicker spool, plus the blades can have the angle adjusted to be more aggressive if you want
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You're having the compressor machined to improve the turbo.
The metal used is sometimes referred to as billet.
Sounds to me just like a gt2860rs.
I can get it all done for £400 though
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Right I'm going to say it and I'm sorry if it causes offence.
I think you're having your pants pulled down.
Pretty sure I paid 300 ish for a refurbed TB2559 which is an old rubbish turbo can't see how you would get a modified gt2860 for not much more.
You a have a state of the art ECU and you're looking at cheap crap turbos it's the wrong way to go.
Hopefully you get lucky and it all works out.
Thanks for the pep talk friend lol
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My 2zz is currently running pretty much as well as any race tuned 2zz out there. Even Lee Mabbet was impressed. I may come across as a bit dippy, but Im really not stupid. I perhaps talk out loud when I should hold back, but it's often my way of figuring things out. I can assure you, when I get round to getting the turbo built, it will be a good job. However, occasionally you can find bargins, and sometimes new isn't always better than old.
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I say build it however you think is best mate. Enjoy it, learn from it, report back so we can all learn.
Build it, bring it to Ding Day...
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I will check the turbo out thoroughly before I buy but I'm not an endless pot of money! I'd love to spend a lot and put the very best in the car, but it's just not possible - or economical. I've already sent around 10k on the car! This is my 4th car in the house and I drive it maybe 600 miles a year.
If I have to put an older version of a turbo in, then so be it.
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On the upside. If you find the turbo is crap. You can always replace it with a good one as the fittings should all be the same.
I don't know why it would be crap, it's still a Garrett and the difference with journal bearing and ball bearing should be relatively little with these small turbo's.
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This turbo build is just for a bit of extra driving fun guys, I'm not sticking it on a track or anything. It will likely do a couple of hundred miles a year
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Quote from: michaelb on November 10, 2018, 21:00
I don't know why it would be crap, it's still a Garrett and the difference with journal bearing and ball bearing should be relatively little with these small turbo's.
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I was more thinking of if you got a Chinese turbo or something really. A refurbed Garret should be pretty decent. What's the warranty?
One year warranty
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I'm also looking 1050cc injectors, anyone seen any decent prices for them out there?
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 09:28
I'm also looking 1050cc injectors, anyone seen any decent prices for them out there?
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Just wondering what the reason is for going that big. Out of curiosity.
I don't know the exact figure off hand but my 670 injectors are operating at quite a low duty cycle. I'd have though 1050 may be a little big.
It's what my mechanic friend thought. Perhaps they are too big?
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 09:39
It's what my mechanic friend thought. Perhaps they are too big?
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There's calculators online that can give you an estimation.
Example.
Using my car, injector size came up at 440cc
Most people go for 470 for a turbo built so it's about spot on.
Mine were a bit too big but Greg was happy they worked well as they are Siemens Dekas so we stuck with them.
Running the figures for your aims. Estimating 300hp at a duty cycle of 0.8 (80%) your looking at 535 cc.
I'd try and get some second opinions but I think 670cc should be good. And I picked up a set for £120
Cool, thanks Dan. 1050cc does seem a bit big in that case!
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Think I got mine from fleabay. Just FYI.
Ok, cheers bud. I want to get the big bits bought first if I can - turbo, manifold, injectors and intercooler. My mechanic friend is talking about fabricating an aluminium intercooler
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 09:59
Ok, cheers bud. I want to get the big bits bought first if I can - turbo, manifold, injectors and intercooler. My mechanic friend is talking about fabricating an aluminium intercooler
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Just make sure it's as big as you can fit on.
My toyosport IC was only £50. Bought some sheet ally and bolted it on to holes that were already there and it's doing good. I think I had to put some rubber seal between the scoop and the IC though. I reckon you can get the 700mm IC on the back. Mines 550 IIRC.
Thanks for the good advice mate!
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 10:04
Thanks for the good advice mate!
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Have you seen spyderlee (YouTube) charge cooler reviews? You can get the parts for about £400. Seems a huge difference. But ultimately you can't beat a charge cooler.
A lot less effort to IC though.
Yeah, I'm having a chat with Lee later today hopefully. I've heard a few differing opinions on the charge cooler vs intercooler. Some folk believe if an intercooler is done right, it will actually be better than a charge cooler.
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 10:04
Thanks for the good advice mate!
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Anytime.
Have you seen spyderlee (YouTube) charge cooler reviews? You can get the parts for about £400. Seems a huge difference. But ultimately you can't beat a charge cooler.
A lot less effort to IC though. ;)
Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 10:11
Yeah, I'm having a chat with Lee later today hopefully. I've heard a few differing opinions on the charge cooler vs intercooler. Some folk believe if an intercooler is done right, it will actually be better than a charge cooler.
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I think there's definitely ways of doing it. Porsche have used and IC before now so it must work.
But honestly. I don't think itll be as good as the charge cooler with rad up front.
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 10, 2018, 19:27
Right I'm going to say it and I'm sorry if it causes offence.
I think you're having your pants pulled down.
Pretty sure I paid 300 ish for a refurbed TB2559 which is an old rubbish turbo can't see how you would get a modified gt2860 for not much more.
You a have a state of the art ECU and you're looking at cheap crap turbos it's the wrong way to go.
Hopefully you get lucky and it all works out.
I spoke to the chap and he told me that for a refurbished journal bearing GT2860 the price is a standard £300. The additional modification will cost approximately another £100-£120. He advised that I could go to AET as they have a great reputation, and he wouldn't be at all offended, but I would likely have to pay around another £100 for the refurbished turbo and another £50 for the modifications. He is able to source the turbo's cheaply and hasn't got many overheads, which means he can pass the savings onto his customers. He did say if it was a GT2860RS, then that would indeed be more expensive.
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So...original question. In the current location, with ambient temps of about 12degrees. I took the motor for a blast and monitored intake temps.
Under hard boost down the m271 followed by traffic and repeated a few times. Peak temps were 30degrees. Dropping to about 23 after 2 minutes or so in traffic.
This is without my lid fan running which is still driving me crazy. [emoji1751][emoji3603]
Do you think the lid fan actually helps? I'd have thought it could even stall the engine at certain road speeds as the air should natural flow upwards?
I think the biggest problem isn't getting the airflow in, it's getting the airflow out
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 14:40
Do you think the lid fan actually helps? I'd have thought it could even stall the engine at certain road speeds as the air should natural flow upwards?
I think the biggest problem isn't getting the airflow in, it's getting the airflow out
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It sucks air out of the bay and throws it outwards.
Well...it will when it works [emoji23]
Ah, that makes more sense now lol I wondered about make some vents to improve the flow of air out
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Quote from: michaelb on November 11, 2018, 14:55
Ah, that makes more sense now lol I wondered about make some vents to improve the flow of air out
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You can fit some vents in the rear corners and remove I'll of the insert plastics and replace with mesh.
It has been done.
The fan is only for static and slow speeds really. Trying to reduce heat soak a little.