Hi Guys,
The 2 has developed a problem and i'm not keen on driving it at the moment.
It was running fine a few weeks back, I was on a spirited country drive when I noticed a tapping sound coming from the engine, at a similar time i also noticed what sounded like the exhaust blowing.
When i got home I left the car in the drive way for a few hours and started it up again to see if the noise was still there. It seemed to be worst and more obvious when revving (noise follows the frequency of revs and sounds more like tappets).
I left it for a few day whilst i pondered what it could be. I started it up again and noised white 'smoke' coming out of the back. Not too sure if the head gasket had gone I took it for a short drive to see if i ended up with water in the oil or oil in the water. when i returned the white smoke was gone... phew, i think i was over sensitive and it was just condensation!
I changed the chain tensioner but that didn't solve the problem.
it's an '06 1ZZ with the newer design pistons so i really done think it's bore score, plus the frequency of the noise and location is in the head.
the noise is now worse than before and present all the time, it becomes very obvious when accelerating and it's now quite a loud metallic rattle that follows the revs.
I'm now thinking it could be oil starvation or a shot bearing.
I plan on doing the following tests:
Compression test
Spark Plug check.
if both of those test come back OK then I think i'll,
Check the OCV
preform an oil flush and replace main oil filter.
Am i missing something? could the exhaust blowing sound be a problem with the manifold gasket that causes the tapping noise?
Not being funny but this has come up a lot and a lot of the times it's the heat shields rattling. Particularly the cat
That sounds suspiciously like a loose cat heat shield.
Many have dark thoughts when hearing this but if it is the case it is aneasy fix.
Typically the shield comes loose just below the three Amigo's (The manifold to cat joint), also the fixings welds IIRC along the length of the shield break.
I removed the cat drilled the welds through and bolted the shields together and used two U shaped exhaust clamps at the joint to hold the shield.
Others have put large Jubilee type clips around the cat and/ or stuffed wire wool between cat and shield.
Hope that isthe case for you.
PS answered as above by Mr Shnazzle.
Cheers but it's definately not the heat shields, I have removed them all for testing. It's definatelty an internal noise.
I forgot to mention I also removed the aux belt momentiarly to see it it was something feed from that. Unfortunately not, definatelty something in the engine causing the sound.
You could take the cam cover off and measure the valve clearances.
So not so simple as heat shield rattle.
Maybe a result of your " spirited country drive" in which case it will likely get worse while you , or the clever ones on here, diagnose it.
Is the noise in-beat with the rpm or is it off slightly, as in 1 noise every 2 rpm?
It's not the klunk of the bottom end turning over, definitely more cam related eg 2 beats per rev. I will check the clearances after I've done the less evasive tests :)
here's a video of the problem I just recorded:
https://youtu.be/1k7DZPH160E
In the real world the tapping sound on acceleration is quite loud.
Humour me:
start her up. reach in and grab the throttle cable as it goes to the throttle body.
Use it to bring the revs up to around 2-3,000 rpm.
Does the rattle get more pronounced at those rpm?
really can't tell from Youtube sound...
Nope, the noise is not as loud when not under load. It's more pronounced when accelerating
I very much doubt it's a valve clearance that's 'gone off'.
By all means check, though. Might as well check compression too.... but it's unlikely to tell you much.
Chain tensioner failure is one possibility.
The other requires dropping the sump and inspecting rod bearings. :-\
Can't tell from that vid. Just sounds like yet another 1zz that needs a valve job. Like most of us :)
What doesn't check out is that it started suddenly.
If the chain tensioner has gone could the chain be catching the retaining channel cast in the bottom of the block?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I plugged in my good headphones to have a good listen.
If you're saying it genuinely suddenly started, then I'm afraid it sounds like you've spun a bearing. Especially as, as you say, you were on a spirited country road drive.
Was oil level nice and high or is it a bit on the med-low side?
Maybe a case of changing mains from below. Remove sump and change bearings? Quite low-impact
Quote from: shnazzle on February 26, 2019, 11:17
I plugged in my good headphones to have a good listen.
If you're saying it genuinely suddenly started, then I'm afraid it sounds like you've spun a bearing. Especially as, as you say, you were on a spirited country road drive.
Was oil level nice and high or is it a bit on the med-low side?
Maybe a case of changing mains from below. Remove sump and change bearings? Quite low-impact
That would be changing rod bearings, not mains, Patrick, but I know what you meant.
Sadly I also think ya bearing has spun. It's not too bad a job to drop the pan and find out.
Quote from: Carolyn on February 26, 2019, 11:22
Quote from: shnazzle on February 26, 2019, 11:17
I plugged in my good headphones to have a good listen.
If you're saying it genuinely suddenly started, then I'm afraid it sounds like you've spun a bearing. Especially as, as you say, you were on a spirited country road drive.
Was oil level nice and high or is it a bit on the med-low side?
Maybe a case of changing mains from below. Remove sump and change bearings? Quite low-impact
That would be changing rod bearings, not mains, Patrick, but I know what you meant.
Sadly I also think ya bearing has spun. It's not too bad a job to drop the pan and find out.
Bah! You're right. I'll get a post right at some point.
I meant the ones in the big end :)
Does it do it at full throttle? Mine's got a tappy type noise under light load, disappears when you go faster.
the noise on mine is under acceleration, part or WOT. i haven't taken it past 5000RPM in testing since the noise appeared, it's not a nice sound.
OK, i've never had the bottom end off the 2. if i take the sump off what am i likely to find if it's spun a bearing beyond metal in the oil?
BTW i really appreciate your help. I'm guttered i cant drive it, especially when i just saw someone else in their 2 driving with the top down on this sunny day :(
Quote from: Optimus prime on February 26, 2019, 13:28
the noise on mine is under acceleration, part or WOT. i haven't taken it past 5000RPM in testing since the noise appeared, it's not a nice sound.
OK, i've never had the bottom end off the 2. if i take the sump off what am i likely to find if it's spun a bearing beyond metal in the oil?
If it's the con rod bearing you'll be able to feel the play against the shaft by hand. If you take the sump off and reach up to each one in turn you should be able to "rattle" the bad one up and down ever so slightly.
If one has gone you can replace them in situ, it's fiddly but possible.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Optimus prime on February 26, 2019, 13:28
the noise on mine is under acceleration, part or WOT. i haven't taken it past 5000RPM in testing since the noise appeared, it's not a nice sound.
OK, i've never had the bottom end off the 2. if i take the sump off what am i likely to find if it's spun a bearing beyond metal in the oil?
Little flecks of white metal in the sump.
Get your self a pack of cheapo Stanley knife blades. Take all the sump bolts and the two sump nuts off. Carefully knock Blades into the sealant between the pan and block with a small hammer. Break as much of the seal as you can before prying it off.
You'll doubtless bend the pan a bit, but it'll hammer straight very easily.
It's worth taking a couple of bearing caps off. You'll need a torque wrench to put them back, but it's only 15 ft lbs, so check the wrench goes that low.
Take pics of shells and post them on here.
Odds are the crank will be fine.
I have herd this sound before on a few older examples. It turned out to be a broken downpipe flex section.
The flex section will have a little tear which is just enough to allow the sound of the valves to be amplified and it will get worse as it progresses.
Since you discovered this right after a spirited run its possible that an already weakened flex section was under extreme stress and gave way.
Well, it just so happens that I have a spare Cat! I'll swap it over to see if that cures the problem.
Sounds like a broken flexi/midpipe to me as well.
I've destroyed 3 midpipes/flexis so yeah lol... 1 from a spirited drive and 2 from scaping on big speedbumps. It's sounded like that and worried me also each and every time. You may need new gaskets if it is as mine still continued to leak and sound horrible without them.
Also, what's the oil level on now?
Quote from: Optimus prime on February 26, 2019, 17:52
Well, it just so happens that I have a spare Cat! I'll swap it over to see if that cures the problem.
If it is your cat, replacement is not enough. You also need to replace the front and rear motor mounts due to age as they are usually the cause that leads to accelerated flex section damage.
UPDATE,
I have replaced the cat and it has quieted the noise but it's clear something is not right. Obviously the previous Cat has a an air leak so that problem is fixed.
My next step is to flush the oil out, see if there are any metal flakes in it.
---If there are metal flakes i'll drop the sump and check the bearings.
---If not, i will change oil filter, refill with oil and see if the flush had magically cured it (i'm doubtful).
If the problem is still there i'll check and clean the OCV.
if the problem persists I will check valve clearance with the view of replacing valve shims.
If that fails; I think it's time to remove the head for an overhaul/thorough inspection.
....sound like a plan or can you think of anything else worth doing prior to removing the head?
My money is still on a con rod bearing, although valve lash is possibly easier to check first.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I can't wait to get this fixed!
If I find Metal in the oil from the oil change, surely this will be the tell tail sign of con rod bearing failure...?
Quote from: Optimus prime on March 9, 2019, 20:58
I can't wait to get this fixed!
If I find Metal in the oil from the oil change, surely this will be the tell tail sign of con rod bearing failure...?
Definitely a sign of something of that nature as tappety valves wouldn't normally fire off shrapnel.
I think you've answered your own question really, drop the oil, possibly through a coffee filter or similar to make it easier to check for bits.
If you find white metal then off with the sump and check the bearings, having seen a spun bearing on video before it should be fairly evident if one has gone.
You could always pull the plug leads in turn prior to that and see if one is noisier than the rest?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do you guys have used oil analysis services in the UK?
If so I would send them a sample of the oil and have it analyzed. You will quickly determine where the wear is without having to open the motor.
This noise could also be VVT actuator related. What generally happens is the VVT actuator builds up deposits and is not probably lubricated, the lock pin sheers enough to create a dieseling knocking sound. Some have flushed their engine and the sound lessened.
Miller Oils did about 4 years ago. Make of oil irrelevant. You send a litre. £20 was the cost.
Hi all,
Sorry for the late reply, I have been busy moving house and weekend car repairs took a back seat.
...that said, I've done a couple of things this weekend.
-Flushed the oil system using hydraulic lifter cleaner.
-Got excited and put new oil in (I was on auto pilot)
-Checked old oil and saw brown, crumbly bits of rusty metal (pic below). i'm not 100% sure this came out of the sump or if it flaked off the underneath of the car (I wish I was more careful). I was expecting to see shiny flecks of metal if it came from inside the sump?
-I've checked the OCV and filter, both seem fine and very clean
I previously replaced the Cat and that quietened the sound but it certainly didn't cure the problem. I think the car sounds generally louder (kind of like a blown exhaust) than it did before the problem started, that said I've been driving a Toyota Hybrid daily and that's pretty quiet.
I have been looking into replacing the con rod bearings, I never appreciated what they were... they're basically metal shims. They seem fairly inexpensive, i might as well do all 4 while i'm down there. any other suggestion on things to replace while i'm there?
Hi,
So I finally got round to doing the bearings this weekend. the ones that came out showed little wear but as I was down there I had them replaced. oil clearance for each big end was 0.050 which is well within spec (shows the car's been looked after)
I let the sump gasket set last night and filled it will oil hoping the noise would not be there today. but no luck, the noise is still there!
My next step to to replace the exhaust manifold gasket in case it's leaking. People on here and facebook suggested it a few times although i must admit, i'm not 100% sold on this concept but i'm running out of ideas.
If replacing the gasket doesn't solve it, i'll take of the cam cover and check valve clearances.
Any input gladly welcomed, i'm slowly loosing my love for 2 :(
bearing 2
bearing 3
bearing 4
That totally does not sound like valve clearances. As owner of potentially some of the loudest valves in the North East, I'd know.
It almost sounds like a resonance causing a rattle somewhere. Did you say it goes away as you rev it?
Also, sounds a bit like when I had the crack in my manifold
the noise comes when it's rev'ed. the sound doesn't get louder or quieter when the engine is running at operational temperature (scratching head)
I'd jiggle the shizzle out of everything in that engine bay and check for a noise of something hitting something else. Under and above.
It's very odd to have an internal engine noise that doesn't change with rpm isn't it?
After comparing your noise with my own tappety noise I'm more inclined to think yours is just blowing from somewhere.
Possibly something that just "gives" as the engine tilts on initial revs then sorts itself out.
As Shnazzle says possibly a cracked weld or something on the manifold? Are your O2 sensors nice and tight? Clutching at straws perhaps but does sound like air getting out, I once fired mine up forgetting to refit the O2s and they make a rattling kind of sound.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very small exhaust leaks sound like rattles. Could be the crush-rings between the cat and manifold or the doughnut between the cat and the silencer.
Thanks for the speedy replies everybody!
1) The noise is absolutely related with engine rev's. i'm certain of this, I had all heat shields off just to make sure i wasn't going nuts as it sounds like an internal noise. the sound comes when the car is under load and it sounds like it is coming from the head. I bought a stethoscope and had a prod around but it's difficult to pin point.
2) I could remove an 02 sensor and see if the (same) noise gets louder. the manifold on there is the original cast iron lump. Other than physically looking on the manifold for cracks, is there any other inventive ways to check?
3) I replaced the crush rings and doughnut when i swapped out the sports CAT for the stock one, i think that section should be fine.
My dad came round this evening and he's mechanically minded. I showed him the car and he is hearing the same as me but used different terminology.
I said to him it sound likes the engine is underwater so perhaps theirs an exhaust leak. he put his hand over the exhaust to see if we could hear anything obvious. We heard nothing strange as the additional back pressure should have made any leaks more obvious.
Moving on, I rev'ed the car and he instantly thought the sound was coming from the head. aside from the metallic tapping sound be described the car as gurgling. his thoughts were to check the timing as this may be out. I quickly replied with "it's unlikely the timing could have slipped"... but he's right, what if the old tensioner got lazy and let the cam slip a tooth, is this or something similar been known on the 1zz?
Really not possible to jump a tooth. Chain could be very stretched, though. Especially if a tensioner was not installed correctly.
Stretch can be measured just by removing the cam cover.
That's a great opportunity to measure all the clearances. Tedious but not difficult.
That's very true, there's a bit of work I can do with the cylinder head cover off. I was reading the BGB i see the cover gasket is reusable so it's a free check!
I might do this first before spending £30+ on a new manifold gasket
Quote from: Optimus prime on April 15, 2019, 18:52
That's very true, there's a bit of work I can do with the cylinder head cover off. I was reading the BGB i see the cover gasket is reusable so it's a free check!
I might do this first before spending £30+ on a new manifold gasket
If the gasket is old and stiff, best to replace.
Hi Guys,
Just to wrap this up. I replaced the manifold gasket along with the manifold as one too many bolts snapped.
Engine was much quieter and the ticking noise under acceleration has gone. Crazy how much sound escapes from a fault gasket. This really threw me!
My advice to anyone else suffering this problem. If it sounds like there's an exhaust leak, chase that down first before anything else!
Thanks for all your help!
Glad to hear you no longer hear!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk