Same subject, different angle.
Quite a lot of Mk.3 owners, here, UK, US, drop the car using after market lowering springs.
This lowers the center of mass and because the spings are markedly stiffer, decreases roll/suspension movement.
It álso alters; negatively affects, the geometry of the car. Thus affects the performance negatively.
I read hardly anything about the latter and just a handful have fitted the roll center correcting ball joints.
Same thing weight shaving. Quite a few owners lóve lightening their car.
This too álso alters; negatively affects, the geometry of the car. Thus affects the performance negatively.
I don´t know how bad the effect of lowering is but the slightly higher ride is rather scary near the sharp end of pushing things: The car properly twists it´s knickers in a knot when cornering HÁRD on real world undulating roads. Now I am used to rally classics so are not easily upset by twisted nicker but this is a modern mid engined car.
I have, sofar, read nothing about the latter.
Spirit does not go into it either in the video clips. It is obvious that he has lowered the car and he lets on to usu heavier spring setting rear but he does not mention how he sorts the geometry.
I have the suspicion that thís is why his car goes so well, so much better than most MR-S.
Thus we get to my question:
What dó you guys do to address the lightness of the car? Do you go lowering springs and ball joints or? Please share!
Would any of you happen to have access to a copy of Miliken & Miliken?
On page 683 there is an equasion which, including explanation, I would really love to stress my brain matter on.
As to multi adjustable suspensions, I hava had many of such suspensions on my racing and enduro bikes and it took like forever to arrive at settings for different circumstances. It was/is no doubt a lot better but I positively háted it.
On this car I would need to know/understand what the ride height setting doés first before I´d go that way.
Been searching the varous MX5 fora too as I am ofcourse not adressing a new issue and there are several times more MX5 owners struggling with this than MR2 owners.
As to adjustment for load with a passenger I would not bother as I simply will not nearly push the car as close to it´s limits with that added responsibility. Not to mention that the girls are sure to whack me hárd on the head the moment they have a hand free... :P
It basically is a search for understanding.
I don't have any real science to back this up, just driving impressions on track. Fitting lower and stiffer springs/dampers I found it gave me more front end grip because the front tyres weren't rolling on the sidewall as much. Also sharpened the steering and just generally gave a bit more confidence. Didn't notice any increase bump steer, tramlining etc
Thank you for the feedback James.
Quote from: Petrus on May 20, 2019, 09:29
Same subject, different angle.
Quite a lot of Mk.3 owners, here, UK, US, drop the car using after market lowering springs.
This lowers the center of mass and because the spings are markedly stiffer, decreases roll/suspension movement.
It álso alters; negatively affects, the geometry of the car. Thus affects the performance negatively.
I read hardly anything about the latter and just a handful have fitted the roll center correcting ball joints.
Same thing weight shaving. Quite a few owners lóve lightening their car.
This too álso alters; negatively affects, the geometry of the car.
Two points from my many years of experience with this car.
Most of the lowering spring options have been optimized to work with the stock struts. They are generally stiffer but that is to account for the reduction in travel however they are generally soft. This option will lower the car conservatively on a budget but not to the point where it will effect the roll center enough to degrade handling. These lowering springs are generally for looks more than actual performance.
Because the lower center of gravity you may have a little better handling but nothing as significant as you get from a proper coilover set up.
There are many Coilover options out there but very few that have been tested for this car as a finished product. Some like the KW are tested on a shaker rig which is the right way to design a proper coil over system.
Many of the other cheaper options will give you a overly stiff and harsh ride which is not optimal but unfortunately most equate stiffness with better handling which is not always the case. The dampeners valving must be properly matched with the spring rates.
Even with all these options you do not need the fancy ball joints to correct for the roll center unless you drop the car by more than
Two inches which is too low to get wheels and certain tires to fit not to mention that the slam look is for show or for drifters. Generally you don't need revised ball joints to lower this car unless you slam it for a special purpose.
In regards to weight loss it can effect the spring rates but not enough to matter unless the entire car is stripped. There is quiet a bit of forgiveness in this area.
If you want to do it right get a proper twin tube coilover system like the KW variant 3 and enjoy. Cutting springs or lowering springs is really not going to do much of anything except for looks.
I have to say I think you are over thinking the whole suspension thing on our cars. There are many options for our cars on handling and ride height and cutting springs is certainly not one if ever choose. As Dev states unless you REALLY slam it so you can't even clear a painted white line on the road you'll be fine with standard springs or progressing onto coilovers. The club boasts many cars from standard to turbo and supercharged both 1zz and 2zz....and larger engines and their cars stance / handling will be suited to their preference / requirement. What I'm trying to say is the standard suspension is pretty decent for a small road going sporty 2 seater as it is, of course there is room for improvement depending on budget and preference. Usually starting with Tein springs then onto coilover set ups. I have coilovers and some bracing and both track and fast road the car with a 2zz and I love it, never had a car that handles as good as it does and with so much feeling to the steering. Don't lose sleep on this and stick to available brand names and you'll be fine unless you 1000bhp it....then you might need some custom advice
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Thanks for sharing the information and the relativating.
Yes, I am overthinking. The reason is past experience with ´performance products´. Only a minority is actually a functional improvement and even then not always a better overall compromise.
To be able to make the choice which suits mé, I try get the most info.
I álso realise that this delightful car is a cheap runabout with constructional limits set by the mass production / parts comonality with cheap consumer cars.
The thing is, it is súch a joy to thrash over mountain roads that it is easy to get carried away and want móre instead of driving within/around the conceptual limits.
Indeed one of the most important things is that the damping and spring are matched.
As to the roll center hight I may be overly critical BUT ... the effect of shifting it is most definitely undesirable when pushing the car.
To complicate matters further still, am looking at the rear stabeliser bar too :-\
I changed out the front and rear sway / arb bars for whiteline ones along with front and mid bracing. Along with the suspension (Meister) it's awesome fun. No matter what you change out it's about getting a feel for it, that goes for suspension, tyres, engine or bracing etc. You could technically have the best set up ever for certain conditions but might not suit your driving style, or local roads. If you're mainly commuting on roads go Tein springs for a lower look and bit better handling, if you drive it hard on twisty roads or track go coilovers, just bear in mind the top mounts need changed at an average of 80k miles and that coilovers usually come with them, they're not cheap buying on their own! With either of the above you'll notice a nice difference from stock as long as you have good tyres to match....now that's a topic you'll lose sleep on [emoji23]
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Quote from: Petrus on May 20, 2019, 21:53
Thanks for sharing the information and the relativating.
Yes, I am overthinking. The reason is past experience with ´performance products´. Only a minority is actually a functional improvement and even then not always a better overall compromise.
To be able to make the choice which suits mé, I try get the most info.
I álso realise that this delightful car is a cheap runabout with constructional limits set by the mass production / parts comonality with cheap consumer cars.
The thing is, it is súch a joy to thrash over mountain roads that it is easy to get carried away and want móre instead of driving within/around the conceptual limits.
Indeed one of the most important things is that the damping and spring are matched.
As to the roll center hight I may be overly critical BUT ... the effect of shifting it is most definitely undesirable when pushing the car.
To complicate matters further still, am looking at the rear stabeliser bar too :-\
I have a deep suspicion with circumstantial evidence that the roll center height is far more optimized for this car when it is lowered but only to a certain point and then it is degraded.
The TRD Sportivo suspension kit that was made for this car included struts, sway bars and one other interesting item which was two dog bones that lower the subframe. It was initially thought it would bring the roll center back in alignment.
After much discussion was found that that the dog bones go in the opposite direction of making the roll center worse as if you were to lower the car further.
The TRD kit was just a mild lowering so it is quiet possible that the optimum roll center is lower than the engineers designed for and the car was made at a time when Toyota started making provisions for cars to be modified by future enthusiasts for their TRD line. Basically Toyota knew that their cars might be modified by enthusiasts and made some minor allowances.
Quote from: Dev on May 20, 2019, 22:25
I have a deep suspicion with circumstantial evidence that the roll center height is far more optimized for this car when it is lowered but only to a certain point and then it is degraded.
The TRD Sportivo suspension kit that was made for this car included struts, sway bars and one other interesting item which was two dog bones that lower the subframe. It was initially thought it would bring the roll center back in alignment.
After much discussion was found that that the dog bones go in the opposite direction of making the roll center worse as if you were to lower the car further.
The TRD kit was just a mild lowering so it is quiet possible that the optimum roll center is lower than the engineers designed for and the car was made at a time when Toyota started making provisions for cars to be modified by future enthusiasts for their TRD line. Basically Toyota knew that their cars might be modified by enthusiasts and made some minor allowances.
Véry interesting food for thought.
TRD only slightly lowering the car seems to me a matter of retaining both ground clearance and, possibly more importantly, wheel travel.
Lowering the subframe is an intriguing modification. I was not aware of this. It is quite a fundamental mod affecting the geometry of the rear suspension, lowering the mounting point of the lower suspension strut. Indeed doing the same as shortening the springs.
Intriguing and apparenly not making any sense.
Now if, big IF, the roll centre hight is ideally a bit lower than standard spec. it does explain why I so notice the car jacking with it a bit higher.
Quote from: Dougster7 on May 20, 2019, 22:06as long as you have good tyres to match....now that's a topic you'll lose sleep on [emoji23]
Got Enkei RPF1s with AD08R which are totally at home here in the south ;)
The awesome traction of those are part of the problem: Without this level of grip I would not háve the problem.
The TRD Sportivo kit:
2*Front shock absorber 823/559N
2*Rear shock absorber 1254/490N
2*Rear Suspension Upper Support Extra firm type
2*Front Coil Spring K=15.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
2*Rear Coil Spring K=33.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
2*Rear Suspension Member Spacer t=3.2 Material: Steel Changein roll-centre position
1*Front Stabilizer Bar (φ23 Solid type)
2*Front stabilizer bush Exclusive for above stabilizre bar Extra firm type
1*Rear Stabilizer Bar (φ17 Solid type)
2*Rear stabilizer bush Exclusive for above stabilizre bar Extra firm type
4*Front stabilizer cushion Extra firm type
The ´dog bones´ are 3.2 mm thick spacers.
A baffling lack of concrete; factual ´geometry´, info on the suspension upgrades availeble. The absense of specifications of lowering springs is symptomatic (Tein being the exception).
Neither is there much (understatement) on the TRD Sportivo spacers for the subframe.
Been measuring a bit under the car and the effect is a definite lowering of the roll center. Working form 20 mm lowered springs (as per TRD kit) the effect is in the order of 30 mm!!!
See a schematic and now imagine lowering the chassis side of the bottom strut
(http://e30sport.net/myths/Weight_Transfer/roll_center.jpg)
Note: I have chosen thís illustration as it visualises the effect BUT it is also an example of the negative effect of lowering a car too much: The distance between COM and RC has increased so this car will roll MÓRE despite lowering.
As such illustrating twó things ;)
See; ´overthinking´ is not all bad ;D
I'll take your word for it buddy [emoji1303]
I'm not that technically minded, all I know is I slapped on the Meisters, Ad08's, front and rear ARB's, front upper and lower bracing and I can really throw it around corners on both track & road. The steering feedback is very good, as I said best I've ever had from a car.
By all means maybe there's room for improvement but I think I'd need to be born again with the 100% race driver mentality before I noticed.
Hope you get what you're looking for from your 2 [emoji469]
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Still wondering about the Sportivo ´dog bones´,
(https://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/sw201111/rollcenterspacer.jpg)
but apart from that decided to order Tein springs and rear ARB.
I strongly suspect that the rear arb will be a major factor but I nééd to get the car back down.
btw. am at the moment at the coast with the 340. Need luggage space.
Driving the crap out of the thing on B-roads and highways. It is set up 5 cm. higher on the springs. It moves all over the place BUT... the Panhard rear axle is very well desegned and does not allow the rear to wallow. At the limits of adhesion/ car design the car has NO bump steer at the rear.
Ok, the speeds are higher, forget about that, but the rear of my MR inspires léss confidence in that limit area. Thát is what I want restore. Not so much higher corneing speeds but more linear response. The rear is now nót sufficiently ´planted´. When it is ´jacked´, it wallows.
The front moves even more than the rear but it is all linear; it does not wallow; is predictable; confidence inspiring. Thát is the most important aspect.
I am having more fun with the bouncy 340 than with the MR; that múst be adressed.
Quote from: Petrus on May 22, 2019, 12:13
btw. am at the moment at the coast with the 340. Need luggage space.
Driving the crap out of the thing on B-roads and highways. It is set up 5 cm. higher on the springs. It moves all over the place BUT... the Panhard rear axle is very well desegned and does not allow the rear to wallow. At the limits of adhesion/ car design the car has NO bump steer at the rear.
Ok, the speeds are higher, forget about that, but the rear of my MR inspires léss confidence in that limit area. Thát is what I want restore. Not so much higher corneing speeds but more linear response. The rear is now nót sufficiently ´planted´. When it is ´jacked´, it wallows.
The front moves even more than the rear but it is all linear; it does not wallow; is predictable; confidence inspiring. Thát is the most important aspect.
I am having more fun with the bouncy 340 than with the MR; that múst be adressed.
You might be describing what is known as mid corner float. In my experience with driving many MR-S cars and following many of the new cars as they age including many of the discussions it is a known issue that the stock struts for this car are expended at around 40k miles for any kind of serious performance driving, and it doesn't inspire confidence.
It doesn't mean the struts are bad for normal daily driving but when it comes time to punish the car it is poorly dampened very early in its life cycle unlike other cars where the struts can last twice as long for this purpose.
After changing out the struts to many of the aftermarket options including similar KYB replacements this issue becomes non existent.
Another issue that makes the car less confidence inspiring is too much air in the tires. I was asked by an owner to evaluate his terrible handling MR-S and I felt the car was down right dangerous because it lost all of its feel. It had me perplexed and as the owner was talking to me he casually mentioned that he inflates his car to 40psi for all four tires!
There was a lot of back and forth trying to explain to him why this was a bad thing and he was in strong disagreement until I persuaded him to lower the air pressure and once that happened it fixed the handling issue completly.
This car can be very sensitive to changes especially radical changes with the rear sway bar. This is why a four position Whiteline rear sway bar is invaluable to setting up the behavior at the limit.
Good to know about the shocks.
I have the specced tyre pressure with just a whiff more up front.
Had ordered a WhiteLine ;D
You'll love the whiteline arbs, we'll worthwhile [emoji1303]
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Quote from: Dougster7 on May 22, 2019, 19:07
You'll love the whiteline arbs, we'll worthwhile [emoji1303]
Íf you can get one it seems ;)
What a great read.
Heard of the sportivo but not the contents of the kit.
Some more concrete data:
The Cusco 18 mm arb has 180% of OEM stiffness at the soft (outer) hole, 260% in the hard (inside) hole. This is the bar Orido uses in the Spirit MR-S. Front standard.
The Whiteline 18 mm has foúr position; from soft to hard (out to in), quite surprising; 65%, 100%, 130% and 160%.
Now, assuming the TRD one being in the same position as the standard one, than it would be 113% stiffer.
If this shows anything first and foremostly, then it must be that one must try FIND THE SPECIFICATIONS! of any mod.
The lowering springs too are surprising in the very same way.
TRD
Front Coil Spring K=15.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
Rear Coil Spring K=33.6N/mm
Tein
Front 1.9Kgf/mm (30 mm. lowering)
Rear 2.9Kgf/mm
Notice the surprising element? It is not the stiffness but the fron/rear difference; 100% in the TRD kit, 50% in the Tein springs.
Oh, the second surprise is that TRD goes stiffer at the rear than Tein while lowering less!
I do not know what the standard springs are.
Mr.Orido suggests wayWAY harder spring setiings; road: 5, 6, 7 kg. front, 10 rear.
I want to add Orido´s summary of the front/rear setting; ´front soft ok; standard stabeliser ok; rear hard rate, hard stabeliser; easier to control.´
In numbers:
5 kilo front, standard arb
10 kilo rear, Cusco stabeliser
Basically... we are sissies :P
p.s. a stiffer arb will also have a stiffening side effect on the springing.
I can't offer anything to the discussion other than it is best when making comparisons to compare like with like.
The units used differ by a factor of around 10 as shown below that I believe may be helpful.
TRD
Front Coil Spring K=15.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
Rear Coil Spring K=33.6N/mm
Tein
Front 1.9Kgf/mm (30 mm. lowering)= 18.63N/mm
Rear 2.9Kgf/mm. = 28.44N/mm
Thank you Joesson; I assumed that all would be aware of the factor 9.8 :(
You can't base much on the Orido car without taking much into context the whole package including the purpose.
The TRD kit has sway bars that are designed around the damper and springs they provide.
The purpose of the adjustability of the sway bars is to give you flexibility in making gross adjustments since changing spring rates is not always possible and the swaybars also allow the car to be a bit more forgiving comfort wise instead of using much higher spring rates.
For a street driven car you don't want very high spring rates otherwise you will end up with a bouncing brick. You want both the damping and spring rates to match the level of grip of the tires. Overly stiff suspension is counterintuitive to grip but needed once you run tires exceed the level of grip the suspension can provide.
This is why a good researched suspension system is also comfortable.
This is also why many options for this car are not optimal but the owner will not know the difference because he will equate stiffness with better handling.
Thanks Dev.
In my experience in 23 years of roád racing is that the softest settings you can get away with stability wise, gives the most grip.
It is more unsettling than a harder stable car, but the tyres need to be able to follow the road to have traction. Hence negative wheel travelis só important for grip on real world roads.
p.s. concerning the Tein spring values, it must be taken into account that they assume standard shocks.
Quote from: Petrus on May 22, 2019, 22:10
Some more concrete data:
The Cusco 18 mm arb has 180% of OEM stiffness at the soft (outer) hole, 260% in the hard (inside) hole. This is the bar Orido uses in the Spirit MR-S. Front standard.
The Whiteline 18 mm has foúr position; from soft to hard (out to in), quite surprising; 65%, 100%, 130% and 160%.
Now, assuming the TRD one being in the same position as the standard one, than it would be 113% stiffer.
If this shows anything first and foremostly, then it must be that one must try FIND THE SPECIFICATIONS! of any mod.
The lowering springs too are surprising in the very same way.
TRD
Front Coil Spring K=15.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
Rear Coil Spring K=33.6N/mm
Tein
Front 1.9Kgf/mm (30 mm. lowering)
Rear 2.9Kgf/mm
Notice the surprising element? It is not the stiffness but the fron/rear difference; 100% in the TRD kit, 50% in the Tein springs.
Oh, the second surprise is that TRD goes stiffer at the rear than Tein while lowering less!
I do not know what the standard springs are.
Mr.Orido suggests wayWAY harder spring setiings; road: 5, 6, 7 kg. front, 10 rear.
I want to add Orido´s summary of the front/rear setting; ´front soft ok; standard stabeliser ok; rear hard rate, hard stabeliser; easier to control.´
In numbers:
5 kilo front, standard arb
10 kilo rear, Cusco stabeliser
Basically... we are sissies :P
p.s. a stiffer arb will also have a stiffening side effect on the springing.
I have Meister coils with 5kg front and i find it too soft as the car bounces all the time no matter what damping settings i have. Rear seems ok but front is a nightmare. I think ill get stiffer springs 7 front and 10 rear. Atm i have the OEM sway bars.
Also the spring types behave differently that should be taken into account.
Thus:
MeisterR Front 5 kg/mm.
Ofcourse with non standard (variable) damping.
It agaín illustrates the different specifications of aftermarket goodies.
As a matter of interest, with the TRD Sportivo kit came the advice to run front 205/45R16, rear 215/45R16 high grip tyres on 7J ET45 rims.
[quote author=Nvy
I have Meister coils with 5kg front and i find it too soft as the car bounces all the time no matter what damping settings i have. Rear seems ok but front is a nightmare. I think ill get stiffer springs 7 front and 10 rear. Atm i have the OEM sway bars.
Also the spring types behave differently that should be taken into account.
[/quote]
Nvy.... I bought them too, but not yet fitted. I know precious little about suspension, but I'd suggest if you cannot get the front end to stop bouncing you have a damper problem. Maybe you should consider going to a suspension expert. From what I've read from others who have had Meisters for some time, maximum damping is for track work.
H&R supplies lowering springs for 20 or 30mm lowering.
I have , perhaps sofar, no others apart from TRD that ´only´ go 20mm lower. The rest is 30mm with some offering 40 to 45 mm. even.
Not found, again sofar, any spring válues.
H&R also offers specially tailored springs for the (adjustable) Koni Sport coil over set.
They state 30mm lower with standard weight car. No data on spring values.
Koni does provide info on the damping; soft 125% of standard to hard >200%.
(http://www.koni.com/CorporateSite/media/itt/PageMedia/Cars/Technology/KONI_Graph_Sport.jpg)
I have a very high opinion of Koni (a Dutch firm ;-) ) and thus assuming (I know; stupid) that the spring rate will be moderate too. Nevertheless have the question sent to both them and H&R.
H&R have responded;
Front 20 N/mm. (approx 30 mm lowering)
Rear 30 N/mm.
TRD
Front Coil Spring K=15.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
Rear Coil Spring K=33.6N/mm
Tein
Front 18.63N/mm (30 mm. lowering)
Rear 28.44N/mm
Standard spring values anyone???
We are running Tein springs and Koni inserts at 3/4 turn from full soft. There is no float or bouncing or other odd behavior. You can crank up the rebound adjuster beyond about 1 1/2 turns from soft and make the car handle worse as high rebound "packs" the suspension down over a series of bumps (the suspension doesn't extend quickly with high rebound damping).
We removed the rear anti-roll and stayed with a stock front, as the rear bar tended to lift the inside wheel in tight turns and cause snap oversteer with the stiffer Tein springs. With the current setup, the basic characteristic is light understeer even when pushed hard, which is a good plan for a street car.
Quote from: Nvy on May 23, 2019, 06:40
Quote from: Petrus on May 22, 2019, 22:10
Some more concrete data:
The Cusco 18 mm arb has 180% of OEM stiffness at the soft (outer) hole, 260% in the hard (inside) hole. This is the bar Orido uses in the Spirit MR-S. Front standard.
The Whiteline 18 mm has foúr position; from soft to hard (out to in), quite surprising; 65%, 100%, 130% and 160%.
Now, assuming the TRD one being in the same position as the standard one, than it would be 113% stiffer.
If this shows anything first and foremostly, then it must be that one must try FIND THE SPECIFICATIONS! of any mod.
The lowering springs too are surprising in the very same way.
TRD
Front Coil Spring K=15.6N/mm (Ride height approx. 20mm lowering)
Rear Coil Spring K=33.6N/mm
Tein
Front 1.9Kgf/mm (30 mm. lowering)
Rear 2.9Kgf/mm
Notice the surprising element? It is not the stiffness but the fron/rear difference; 100% in the TRD kit, 50% in the Tein springs.
Oh, the second surprise is that TRD goes stiffer at the rear than Tein while lowering less!
I do not know what the standard springs are.
Mr.Orido suggests wayWAY harder spring setiings; road: 5, 6, 7 kg. front, 10 rear.
I want to add Orido´s summary of the front/rear setting; ´front soft ok; standard stabeliser ok; rear hard rate, hard stabeliser; easier to control.´
In numbers:
5 kilo front, standard arb
10 kilo rear, Cusco stabeliser
Basically... we are sissies :P
p.s. a stiffer arb will also have a stiffening side effect on the springing.
I have Meister coils with 5kg front and i find it too soft as the car bounces all the time no matter what damping settings i have. Rear seems ok but front is a nightmare. I think ill get stiffer springs 7 front and 10 rear. Atm i have the OEM sway bars.
Also the spring types behave differently that should be taken into account.
One of the problems with most monotube designed struts options for this car is being over dampened for a street application. This is a case where they assume you are going to track the car but for some unknown reason they suggest lower spring rates for comfort on the street which tend to be worse. That is why a struts damping and spring rate has to be matched.
A few more points for food for thought.
A monotube struts spring rate cannot be compared to a twin tube design with similar spring rates but most of all the kind of damping the strut provides.
Koni makes decent suspension but the option for our cars are inserts. Inserts use even less shock oil then the factory dampers. It's still not comparable to a good coilover system.
There are only a few good options if you want to do it right.
Quote from: Beachbum957 on May 23, 2019, 13:45
We are running Tein springs and Koni inserts at 3/4 turn from full soft. There is no float or bouncing or other odd behavior. You can crank up the rebound adjuster beyond about 1 1/2 turns from soft and make the car handle worse as high rebound "packs" the suspension down over a series of bumps (the suspension doesn't extend quickly with high rebound damping).
Thanks for sharing the experience.
Totally logical.
Quote
We removed the rear anti-roll and stayed with a stock front, as the rear bar tended to lift the inside wheel in tight turns and cause snap oversteer with the stiffer Tein springs. With the current setup, the basic characteristic is light understeer even when pushed hard, which is a good plan for a street car.
While I totally understand it; it is a fundamental property of the arb and the reason why they are a nono for a bit more serious offroading, it is diagonally opposed to what TRD does with a stíffer! rear spring.
@Dev (https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1962); ofcourse quality/functionality of a ´proper´ coils over system is superior to a system costing a third/half.
p.s. a biggie here is the same as in Germany; I nééd homogation papers with whichever part I mount. I can easily swap out a pair of seats for periodic inspection nor ar they going to be any probelm with a copper, strikingly painted suspension bits are a different kettle of fish.
Some good reading and information on this thread :D, i am a big fan of the Koni sport dampers on the many different cars ive used them on including my 2, they offer a nice balance between improved handling and ride comfort due to the valving they use, my current setup is Koni Sport Inserts, Tein Springs, trimmed bumpstops f&r with Camber bolts in the front and on the road with Konis set +90 to +180deg up from full soft it absorbs the bumps well (considering the travel available) and car body is well controlled, on track turned to +180 or +270 handling is further improved for the smoother circuits and while springs work ok they are both a touch soft and low for what i would like, but for an off the shelf option is was the best one for me and i looked at them all.
In future i would like to convert the stock damper casing to take an adjustable spring platform to take a conventional coilover type spring (2.25 or 2.5") and this will allow me to play with the rates and heights etc, i know the Koni damper can easily handle double to stock spring rate so keen to explore this and see how firm we can go without spoiling the ride quality too much, its always a compromise somewhere but i think raising car a touch and going up on spring rate to a sensible level will still give a nice balance of ride and handling.
In the meantime as a stop gap more than anything im going to play with uprated ARB's and have some Whiteline adjustables due this week to start fiddling with!, this is mainly to help reduce the body roll in tighter corners on track and while im not one to try and get the car flat as possible with mega stiff suspension and believe some roll is good as it aids traction but im hoping the ARB's give a sensible reduction in roll without compromising traction and ride too much, until i get chance to play around with springs etc.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 23, 2019, 15:09have some Whiteline adjustables due this week to start fiddling with!, this is mainly to help reduce the body roll in tighter corners on track and while im not one to try and get the car flat as possible with mega stiff suspension and believe some roll is good as it aids traction but im hoping the ARB's give a sensible reduction in roll without compromising traction and ride too much, until i get chance to play around with springs etc.
Will be interesting to read your feedback.
The two opposed ´views´ are both based on the driving experience and largely (to not write exclusively) based on driving style.
Note to all; an lsd fitted should be separate subject as that changes the arb traction issue fully.
Found a value for the stock spring rates on Spyderchat.
So, that makes:
Standard
Front 14.5 N/mm.
Rear 22 N/mm.
H&R (30 mm lowering)
Front 20 N/mm.
Rear 30 N/mm.
TRD (20mm lowering)
Front 15.6N/mm
Rear 33.6N/mm
Tein (30 mm. lowering)
Front 18.63N/mm
Rear 28.44N/mm
So....
Let me think out loud in print.
Taking the damping out of the equasion because asuming that is matching the spring rate, we are left with spring rate and anti roll bars bars.
It stand to reason as a lighthouse that the TRD set up leans towards mild understeer out of legal caution.
That explains the slightly beefed up front arb.
Since for the rest the front arb is thought to be sufficient, we can forget about that too; just leave it.
That leaves to the rear spring rates, arb and ... the dog bones.
Right. Those sub frame spacers. They lower the lower suspension arm mounting point thus lowering the roll centre a bit, which reduces oversteer. Most likely again a cautious move by TRD (with thanks to Beachbum).
Now thís is one we should remember as it may be a very useful one!
So; rear springs and rear arb.
Less roll is very desirable on the MacPherson/Chapman strutted MR. When the outer suspension compresses, the camber changes towards positive, gets positive even and that reduces traction.
Stiffer springs are a good way to have a flatter cornering car but the price is not just a bumpier ride, it is also less compliance, is less traction on real world bumpier roads.
That leaves us the anti roll bar.
The stiffer the arb, the less roll, but the more tendency to oversteer.
Thus we strive to a flatter car through a stiffer arb but... oversteer.
Now, íf we have not lowered the car so much that the lower suspension arm angle has not lowered the roll centre a lot already, we still have the dog bones up our sleeve to reduce the oversteer a bit while enjoying the benefits of the flatter cornering and having acceptable spring rates. What TRD did minus their light understeer through stiffer front arb.
This is FÚN!
I think I will let this ferment overnight 🙂
Here an extremely goor article with spreadheets and all.
I can not think of a better explanation of why I am so focussed on the lowering/roll center.
Anyone seriously interested or having handling issues; do read it:
https://edfishjr.com/tag/autocross-porsche-944/
Quote from: Petrus on May 24, 2019, 09:43
Here an extremely goor article with spreadheets and all.
I can not think of a better explanation of why I am so focussed on the lowering/roll center.
Anyone seriously interested or having handling issues; do read it:
https://edfishjr.com/tag/autocross-porsche-944/
Good article but I got to about 30% through and lost the will to live a bit haha.
I'll just stick to trial and error
Quote from: Petrus on May 23, 2019, 22:01
Taking the damping out of the equasion because asuming that is matching the spring rate, we are left with spring rate and anti roll bars bars.
It stand to reason as a lighthouse that the TRD set up leans towards mild understeer out of legal caution.
That explains the slightly beefed up front arb.
I don't think you can take the damping out of the equation and then compare what the springs and sway bars do on their own.
The TRD front sway bar is not unique for being beefed up. Actually, it was found out a long time ago that a much bigger front sway bar is key to putting down power and therefore there are much larger front sway bar options one in particular was so big that it was known to bend the end links.
The rear does not need to be significantly big however it needs the most amount of adjustability so you can achieve mild oversteer at the limit.
In order to do this you need to start out with suspension that is properly dampened for the roads traveled. It needs to be soft enough so it doesn't bounce. Having this set up complements sway bars and works as intended compared to having very high spring rates.
Failing to do this will have the owner do stupid things like delete the rear sway bar because the car is too tail happy. In a case like this it is clearly the fault of the struts.
This is why most suspension options are suboptimal. If you want to do it right you need to spend the majority of your budget on researched coilovers to set the foundation for what comes next like sway bars and such.
What tends to happen with poor suspension set ups is a loss of traction or unstable behavior which prompts the owner to add wider tires.
Going wide adds more unsprung weight and dulls the drive all the while the main issue with the damping is never addressed just lobotomized.
Quote from: Dev on May 24, 2019, 20:05
Going wide adds more unsprung weight and dulls the drive all the while the main issue with the damping is never addressed just lobotomized.
Hence my investment in lightweight OEM diameter rims and - size rubber fírst.
Well and shedding car weight.
The rest is pending car specifics vs my needs.
Per priciple I do not like anti roll bars, but I also want as soft as possible springs with matched damping. That makes the WhiteLine an attractive option as it offers several settings.
Oh and I do want to maintain ground clearance.
All this on a budget ;D
Btw., this afternoon had a véry satisfying drive with a gf in the passenger seat. Despite is being a bit too high on the springs and thus it is not very precise, it behaves só neutral on the well warmed up AD08s. Quite a lot of easy to control four wheel drift; the gf noticed and lóve it.
I am getting the hang of avoiding weight transfer to the outside front wheel. That is the big booboo it seems.
Second to avoid, also at the front, is pushing the front in tight corners. Once you have that, you must either ease up and go slower or really lift off to provoke oversteer and thén you can re-balance the car.
Anyway, I am having great fun so priority ONE is not to go backwards from here :)
Quote from: Petrus on May 24, 2019, 23:12
Quote from: Dev on May 24, 2019, 20:05
Going wide adds more unsprung weight and dulls the drive all the while the main issue with the damping is never addressed just lobotomized.
Hence my investment in lightweight OEM diameter rims and - size rubber fírst.
Well and shedding car weight.
The rest is pending car specifics vs my needs.
Per priciple I do not like anti roll bars, but I also want as soft as possible springs with matched damping. That makes the WhiteLine an attractive option as it offers several settings.
Oh and I do want to maintain ground clearance.
All this on a budget ;D
Btw., this afternoon had a véry satisfying drive with a gf in the passenger seat. Despite is being a bit too high on the springs and thus it is not very precise, it behaves só neutral on the well warmed up AD08s. Quite a lot of easy to control four wheel drift; the gf noticed and lóve it.
I am getting the hang of avoiding weight transfer to the outside front wheel. That is the big booboo it seems.
Second to avoid, also at the front, is pushing the front in tight corners. Once you have that, you must either ease up and go slower or really lift off to provoke oversteer and thén you can re-balance the car.
Anyway, I am having great fun so priority ONE is not to go backwards from here :)
Thats why I call the accelerator pedal the grip pedal. I work it like a seesaw transferring weight to where it needs it.
I think you should place all of your bets on the KW variant 3. Its been well designed for this car and double adjustable which will give you so much actual flexibility since you would know how to exploit the settings precisely.
Other coilovers claim adjustability but they are far away from it when you turn that dial.
Don´t want to stretch the budget that far Dev.
The Koni/H&R is at the door under 700€.
Also, crucial ´detail´, it comes with homologation docs.
Money and the law; two very real world limitations :-\
Quote from: Petrus on May 25, 2019, 00:44
Don´t want to stretch the budget that far Dev.
The Koni/H&R is at the door under 700€.
Also, crucial ´detail´, it comes with homologation docs.
Money and the law; two very real world limitations :-\
I bought a car that I parted out that had that combination of H&R with the Koni inserts.
We added the struts to a friends MR-S and tried them out for a good while and compared it to my suspension.
Its not even half the fun and still poorly done. We had to turn the damper up to full to get any good road feel but it was too hash at that level over bumps. Its still much better than the cheap Chinese budget coilovers like the BCs. Surprisingly although soft the TRD kit was much better balanced that is because it was done right. The difference between budgeted and premium is one is correct and the other is wrong, and you will be convincing yourself that its ok but will still be exploring other things to fix the main issue and you will never be able to put your finger on the fact that it is the damping which you will never be able to fix.
There comes a time when budget money is a poor value and sometimes there is no substitue for quality. I would hold off, save up to do it right the first time. The best money for this car is spent on dampers then everything else can be budgeted if need be.
KW V3 is the kit I wanted initially for this car after looking at all options out there and would like to try in future, however I wanted to see what could be done at lower budget first hence the koni/tein setup.
I know it limitations especially for track with the soft springs which drop a touch to far for best handling, but for money (£600 ) it's the best bang for buck option out there for a mainly road driven car.
I'm hoping whiteline bar's give a notable upgrade enough to rein in spending for little while and just enjoy driving car, later in year I will either convert to adjustable springs or dig deep an get the KW v3, a lot depends on direction I take with car.
Quote from: Dev on May 25, 2019, 01:37
There comes a time when budget money is a poor value and sometimes there is no substitue for quality. I would hold off, save up to do it right the first time. The best money for this car is spent on dampers then everything else can be budgeted if need be.
I agree, no difference of opinion.
If the KV would come with ABE (EU homologation) then I would go for it in two months; it is only twice the money.
A huge advantage for me is that I can set the springs to give not all that much lowering.
Secondly, the adjustability means I most likely will not need a stiffer rear arb, which makes them ´cheaper´.
As it is, I cannot get it road legal all that easily.
To have it road leal, it must be added to the vehicle doc. For that it must come with at least a homologation on the parts ánd I need a certified workshop declaration of correct fitment.
I have the question about any EU certification outstanding with a German seller.
Unless there is a homologation possible, it will háve to be Koni/H&R with either 20/20 or 30/30 springs, again depending on the ABE availeble.
I thought KW V3 was EU/TUV certified like most of their kits ? there is a link to a certificate on KW webshop linked below but not sure if this is what you need for your country ?
KW Link - https://www.kwsuspensions.co.uk/shop/TOYOTA_MR_2_III__ZZW3_____10_1999-06_2007__ZZW3__1.8_16V_VT-i__ZZW30__Petrol_103KW_1794ccm_s7U1ELCBsFBccvS0ugBwIg../56/Street_Performance/35256005
Only possible issue for me with the KW kit after speaking to them directly was they expressly said not for track use with premium semi-slick or better tyres, this is due to the amount of lateral load these tyres can generate and they don't feel the internal damper rod bushing that has to deal with these is robust enough to cope longterm when running very sticky tyres on track!, strange they would design it this way but after lengthy discussed with my contact at KW we came to conclusion they should be ok for what I had in mind (road and light track/sprint use with Federal RSR rubber currently), however its a niggle in back of my mind though as they are not cheap things to have break, rebuilding isn't a problem but wouldn't want to have to worry too much about that, I might propose they let me have a set to test/document but don't think that's going to work :D
Quote from: thetyrant on May 25, 2019, 09:20
I thought KW V3 was EU/TUV certified like most of their kits ? there is a link to a certificate on KW webshop linked below but not sure if this is what you need for your country ?
http://docs.kwsuspension.de/ga-KWGFw-2004-ktvpzw-ex-1250_1K.pdf
is the one!! :D
Looking at the best offers, the price difference is 1000€ though. Yes, I know, it ís better. Thát much better even.
Just had another spin with a(nother) gf and the car goes éver so nicely. I am already wáy illegal highway speeds through B-road corners :P Not sure how much better I wánt it to be ;D
Surfing German car fora found only good reviews about the KAW set.
They have two versions for the ZZW30, neither adjustable:
25/20mm lower, with apparently Kayaba shocks.
45/40mm lower with Bilstein shocks.
Bummer: H&R strongly advises to use the 30/30 combi on the Konis.
So, basically there is only óne choice for me.
..and fit a 10mm spacer on the rear springs.
Suspended the bucket seats for the suspension upgrade.
First the belly brace though; should be about to arrive.
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 19:55
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
I don't have any personal experience however there were a few owners that do and say they like them.
I called the company, spoke with a representative and they said they are properly researched and have made further improvements over there previous Zero 2 offerings. They also have adjustments that are more realistic (only 5 damping setting) unlike the stupid 32 adjustable coilovers that are junk.
The only downside is they are more expensive than the KW. With the KW you get double adjustable which is worth it in terms of real flexibility.
Dev you have a lot of hate for the BC coilovers it seems.
I've been rather pleased with mine for going on 3 years now. And as they're used in race championships etc they can't be all bad! Granted, yes, I am running the budget variant (BR-RA).
But still, I rate them quite highly (for what you pay, especially)
Quote from: shnazzle on May 29, 2019, 20:27
Dev you have a lot of hate for the BC coilovers it seems.
I've been rather pleased with mine for going on 3 years now. And as they're used in race championships etc they can't be all bad! Granted, yes, I am running the budget variant (BR-RA).
But still, I rate them quite highly (for what you pay, especially)
Everyones experience or range of experience is different. Most of the time you get use to what you have and make it work or adjust around it.
I have helped three owners fit BC coilovers sets, have evaluated them and also have driven many MR-S cars with various suspension systems.
BC is on top of my list of terrible for ride comfort and uneasy handling on paved road surfaces which are not perfect where I have witnessed them literally bouncing in front of me. The owners didn't really complain until a few have test driven my car and realized their system was holding them back in terms of confidence.
If you drive a car with a properly researched system you will notice the difference right away. The first thing you notice is the comfort.
Sadly out of the three sets I helped installed and followed, all three had failures and needed new cartridges and one needed new studs. Its just a poor quality product.
I can't even disagree with regards to the ride comfort and unsettled behavior on bumpy roads... But on normal day to day roads... All good
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 20:06
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 19:55
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
I don't have any personal experience however there were a few owners that do and say they like them.
I called the company, spoke with a representative and they said they are properly researched and have made further improvements over there previous Zero 2 offerings. They are also have adjustments that are more realistic (only 5 damping setting) unlike the stupid 32 adjustable coilovers that are junk.
The only downside is they are more expensive than the KW. With the KW you get double adjustable which is worth it in terms of real flexibility.
But.. but... I NEED 32 levels of damping adjustment to get my settings just perfect...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: shnazzle on May 29, 2019, 20:44
I can't even disagree with regards to the ride comfort and unsettled behavior on bumpy roads... But on normal day to day roads... All good
If you are driving from point A to point B just about everything available including blown suspension will feel fine. Its when the road demands more and the car is unsettled is when the difference becomes most apparent.
A properly researched suspension for the street will be apparent because comfort goes hand in hand with the correct damping.
The best way to describe good suspension is similar to the ride you get from a new BMW, firm and pleasant.
After I bought my car I saved up all of my pennies for quality dampers because it is one of those things that you can only get right with more expensive options due to the extensive R&D that goes into them. Other options work out some paper calculations that are wrong and there is no room for error.
A suspension system like the TRD kit can be softer in feel than what most enthusiast would like however it will perform predictably well if you were to push it.
Bottom line is, good suspension will not have you bitting your nails worrying if you are going to snap like it might have done causing you to have PSD that holds you back.
If only sportivo sets were still available.. I'd buy in a heartbeat
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 29, 2019, 21:15
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 20:06
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 19:55
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
I don't have any personal experience however there were a few owners that do and say they like them.
I called the company, spoke with a representative and they said they are properly researched and have made further improvements over there previous Zero 2 offerings. They are also have adjustments that are more realistic (only 5 damping setting) unlike the stupid 32 adjustable coilovers that are junk.
The only downside is they are more expensive than the KW. With the KW you get double adjustable which is worth it in terms of real flexibility.
But.. but... I NEED 32 levels of damping adjustment to get my settings just perfect...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The advertising is great though. More settings for how I feel during the day.
You can clearly see that Cusco is the real deal when you only get five and out of that only one or two is probably correct.
For my TEIN SSP I would have to send my shocks to them for a re-valve If I decided to use harder springs because that is the correct way to do it.
Not flip some springs and turn the adjuster to where I like it.
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 21:34
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 29, 2019, 21:15
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 20:06
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 19:55
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
I don't have any personal experience however there were a few owners that do and say they like them.
I called the company, spoke with a representative and they said they are properly researched and have made further improvements over there previous Zero 2 offerings. They are also have adjustments that are more realistic (only 5 damping setting) unlike the stupid 32 adjustable coilovers that are junk.
The only downside is they are more expensive than the KW. With the KW you get double adjustable which is worth it in terms of real flexibility.
But.. but... I NEED 32 levels of damping adjustment to get my settings just perfect...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The advertising is great though. More settings for how I feel during the day.
You can clearly see that Cusco is the real deal when you only get five and out of that only one or two is probably correct.
For my TEIN SSP I would have send my shocks to them for a re-valve If I decided to use harder springs because that is the correct way to do it.
Not flip some springs and turn the adjuster to where I like it.
I've got Meisters, they were a good price through a group buy on here when I bought the car with tired suspension.
I found a setting that suits my haphazard driving style and haven't really changed them since.
Although I finally fitted your door bushings today so that might change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 21:29
If only sportivo sets were still available.. I'd buy in a heartbeat
I like them a lot having test driven two cars with them. Its just a little softer than I would like but otherwise it was balanced well.
Set it and forget it, homework done by the experts.
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 21:21
A suspension system like the TRD kit can be softer in feel than what most enthusiast would like however it will perform predictably well if you were to push it.
Predictable, linear and complicance is what you want on B-roads and insprires confidence.
We are having a French exchange student over and she has developed absolute confidence in my driving especially the jacked up 340. We went into the mountains to the climbing park and on the way back she requested I drift as much as possible over the caminos.
The thing moves a lót but it is all ´good natured´, linear, nothing violent or jerky and for me predictable so I can anticipate, don´t have to briskly correct. The occupants feel that and are not surprised by sudden changes.
I like the suspension to be predictable and the roads to be a bit unpredictable.
It keeps things interesting.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 29, 2019, 21:37
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 21:34
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 29, 2019, 21:15
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 20:06
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 19:55
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
I don't have any personal experience however there were a few owners that do and say they like them.
I called the company, spoke with a representative and they said they are properly researched and have made further improvements over there previous Zero 2 offerings. They are also have adjustments that are more realistic (only 5 damping setting) unlike the stupid 32 adjustable coilovers that are junk.
The only downside is they are more expensive than the KW. With the KW you get double adjustable which is worth it in terms of real flexibility.
But.. but... I NEED 32 levels of damping adjustment to get my settings just perfect...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The advertising is great though. More settings for how I feel during the day.
You can clearly see that Cusco is the real deal when you only get five and out of that only one or two is probably correct.
For my TEIN SSP I would have send my shocks to them for a re-valve If I decided to use harder springs because that is the correct way to do it.
Not flip some springs and turn the adjuster to where I like it.
I've got Meisters, they were a good price through a group buy on here when I bought the car with tired suspension.
I found a setting that suits my haphazard driving style and haven't really changed them since.
Although I finally fitted your door bushings today so that might change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Let me know how you like them. First impressions are always interesting.
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 21:53
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 29, 2019, 21:37
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 21:34
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 29, 2019, 21:15
Quote from: Dev on May 29, 2019, 20:06
Quote from: Snelbaard on May 29, 2019, 19:55
Does anyone here have any experience with Cusco coilovers? In terms of price they're right in the middle of BC and KW. Are they too in terms of quality?
I don't have any personal experience however there were a few owners that do and say they like them.
I called the company, spoke with a representative and they said they are properly researched and have made further improvements over there previous Zero 2 offerings. They are also have adjustments that are more realistic (only 5 damping setting) unlike the stupid 32 adjustable coilovers that are junk.
The only downside is they are more expensive than the KW. With the KW you get double adjustable which is worth it in terms of real flexibility.
But.. but... I NEED 32 levels of damping adjustment to get my settings just perfect...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The advertising is great though. More settings for how I feel during the day.
You can clearly see that Cusco is the real deal when you only get five and out of that only one or two is probably correct.
For my TEIN SSP I would have send my shocks to them for a re-valve If I decided to use harder springs because that is the correct way to do it.
Not flip some springs and turn the adjuster to where I like it.
I've got Meisters, they were a good price through a group buy on here when I bought the car with tired suspension.
I found a setting that suits my haphazard driving style and haven't really changed them since.
Although I finally fitted your door bushings today so that might change.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Let me know how you like them. First impressions are always interesting.
Will do, I possibly didn't spend as much time getting the sweet spot as I should but I'll see how they go.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thing is though, with the price point of the MR2 there's not many people that would consider spending over 1k on suspension... ultimately the car for me is a cheap bit of fun, so the more budget end of coilovers is acceptable.
Also I guess top end suspension is like expensive wine, once you get a taste...
Quote from: james_ly on May 30, 2019, 09:06
Thing is though, with the price point of the MR2 there's not many people that would consider spending over 1k on suspension... ultimately the car for me is a cheap bit of fun, so the more budget end of coilovers is acceptable.
Also I guess top end suspension is like expensive wine, once you get a taste...
That's it.
1600 for a set of KWv3,while I'm sure they're beautiful... No.
That's where you get into the territory of fresh KYB shocks and tein springs for 700 and a very compliant, fresh, comfortable ride and 1600 for a little more handling prowess when you're hoofing it on the B roads or on the track...
If I had a dedicated track car... Absolutely no doubt. KW or Ohlin or something
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 09:42
That's where you get into the territory of fresh KYB shocks and tein springs for 700
For a bit less even, come the Koni/H&R. That is going to be my next stop if I can´t sort my issue by cutting the OEM springs.
Cutting some off to restore ride height, also increases the stiffness; 5% off = 5% stiffer. Together with lowering RC, COM and reduce jacking, it should be very noticeble.
Im with Dev the BC and other similar/same brands are too much of a compromise for most, sure people rave about them but they often havent driven same car with good suspension to compare, also they are often replacing worn out oe stuff so the coilovers feel better than they are, at least intially.
To be fair to BC i ran them on my old Supercharged MX5 trackcar and they were ok for that as most tracks are smooth but back then they were onyl £400 as well, however on roads i have around here in lake district not so great no matter what setting they were on, they were manageable but far from good on road and springs and damping just wouldnt work together, either too firm or too soft depending on setting.
I swapped that kit for OHlins DFV kit which i got at good price to give feedback to OHlins on MX fitment, damping on that kit was superb and a totally different level to the BC (so it should be at 4 times the rrp) and the way it absorbed the bumps especially at the front of car was amazing!, however due to design issues and lack of travel at the rear ( a common problem with MX rear coilovers) i wasnt happy enough to keep it even at discounted rate and returned it, went back to a BC kit before then returning to stock and selling car, bet there isnt many people that have gone BC - OHLins - BC on same car :D ...also running car for a few weeks before sale on the oe bilsteins was a joy on the road :D
Also to add to this on my old GT86 it came with low end Tein coilovers which while ok never felt as good as i would of liked even with the EDFC tricks, changed those to OE with eibach springs which made much nicer road car but not so good on track, then fitted Ohlins DFV to that as well which while a more road based kit on that car made a very nice setup for road and light track, really needed spring upgrade for track if getting serious but for most usage it was very good indeed!
Koni Sports are my go to damper if on low budget, shame its a bit of a faff to fit these on MR2 due to needing to cut strut to fit inserts but its not a massive job really once you started, also being an insert that has to fit inside the original strut case this make a smaller damper piston etc than oe which limits performance when pushing car hard and things get hot, however for most users not an issue and a set of these with good springs makes a very nice road/light track use, ive also just added Whiteline ARB front and rear which has firmed things up nicely as the Tein springs i have are a bit soft and low really imo, its now a very capable road setup with comfort and body control, lookig forward to trying on track soon!
Each to there own of course and suspension is a very subjective thing so what works for one doesnt feel so good to another :D if your happy stick with what you have just have an open mind there is often a lot better out there!
The Koni inserts is indeed a very nice option. Springs is the part I'm never sure about with that setup.
I don't like the Teins. I don't like the Eibach/TTEs, so what's next?
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 10:26
The Koni inserts is indeed a very nice option. Springs is the part I'm never sure about with that setup.
I don't like the Teins. I don't like the Eibach/TTEs, so what's next?
SPAX
;D ;D
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 10:26
The Koni inserts is indeed a very nice option. Springs is the part I'm never sure about with that setup.
I don't like the Teins. I don't like the Eibach/TTEs, so what's next?
Why dont you like the Tein springs out of interest ? I find them ok for what they are just a touch lower than i would like (~10mm maybe) and a bit on soft side for track, not so bad on road though as long as you shorten bumpstops accordingly.
Im looking at further options of either converting stock strut case to adjustable spring perch so i can pick and choose standard coilover spring rates and heights, or possibly get some custom stock fitment springs made like ive recently had done for my old Celica GT4 a as there was no decent options out there, i wanted to drop that 20mm max and uprate rates accordingly so got custom springs made by a company in sheffield, i would like to do same on MR2 but also like the possibility of making them adjustable as well so kind of torn, or i will just by the KW v3 kit :D
Too low and too soft.
Just spend all your time bottoming out on compressions. Nein danke
Any opinions on the TTE springs? I think these are from Eibach but not sure? Btw you got me seriously thinking of selling my coilovers and other parts and to get KW and stick to KYB/Koni + TTE springs until then.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 10:55
Too low and too soft.
Just spend all your time bottoming out on compressions. Nein danke
They are a bit low but not terrible and highest option out there i could find, also when i initally had them on stock dampers they were a bit underdamped which didnt help especially if bumpstop isnt shortened to suit, you should try my car now withe Koni Sports, Tein Springs (shorter bumpstops) and Whiteline ARB's its very good especially for the cost so far :D
:D
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 10:55
Too low and too soft.
Just spend all your time bottoming out on compressions. Nein danke
Can imagine the bottoming out issue with 30mm less travel.
I am aiming for just a bit, maybe 10mm, lower and that will result in around 8% more spring rate. With the lighter car I should have léss risc of bumping the stops than standard.
It will not be much of a difference but then I am in general very content with the car and basiacally only looking to correct the change I made by adding lightness. Using the slight lowering this allows is a bonus, as is a slight increase in stiffness.
I hoping that I will not need a stiffer arb as I can do without the extra unloading of the inner rear wheel that gives.
If I would need to go to the Konis, I will most definitely fit spacers on the springs to maintain a bit of wheel travel/ ground clearance.
Got the bridge Tuesday.
Will fit the belly brace too which may mask the overall feeling a bit but it will not affect the beviour in two specific corners on the local B-road from the neighboring village. They are a great comparative yard stick. Both are with warmed up AD08r just on the sliding edge, roughly 120 km/h corners with the apex about in the lowest point between two rises.
The first one has a more accute depression and a slight camber. The second is flatter and has a bump just befor straightening out.
FGrob set mine up with 20mm drop and the EDFC controller makes quite a difference between hard and soft settings
Now changing front tyres to AD08Rs with factory sizes so 55 profile over the 45 on the old Goodyear Eagle F1's looking forward to seeing how more rubber on the front affects the ride
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Teins definitely bottom out. And how.
I've bottomed out the TTE on a few occasions.
Mind, I mean bottom out in the "how low can you go bro" way. I.e.. The sump or nappy hits the floor on compressions, not the end of shock travel and hitting the bump stop
Im not 100% but are you saying you have bottomed out the sump/nappy when running Tein springs ? you need to slow down! or find better roads lol :D
Ive not had an issue with touching any under carriage down while out playing on the roads with my Teins, to be honest im surprised its even possible to be honest unless bumpstops are totally removed!.... but even then its a long way down from sump to the road and im going to have a measure up to see how much rooms there is, my car is pretty low in the middle due to the extra cross bracing and there are a couple of large speedhumps in my town i have go very steady over to prevent that scraping but ive never had it contact while out on the roads that i can recall, i did get quite a large jolt as it slammed into bumpstop on the Alston to Middleton in Teesdale road where there are a couple of big dips in the road on what is otherwise a very nice/smooth section, but that same in any car ive been down there a touch too quick in.
Ive had some very low cars in the past so im maybe over cautious when i see a big dip/compression etc and back it off, i do find i often end up travelling a lot faster than i realise in the MR2 which is strange, normally in low cars speed is enhanced but i guess its so quiet and compliant speed creeps up on me, i had same in the Mazda when i had the Ohlins on there as suspension was so good it begged you to go flat out everywhere! :D
Northumberland roads for you. Lots of little hills, so coming off the crest at speed and then going down the hill, by the time you get to the bottom... *sccrraappee*.
Not once. Lots of times. That was on TTEs and stock (sub 25k miles) suspension.
Teins are even worse as they're lower.
Crikey you must be flying :D
Car looks well on the Teins but from a function point of view I would like approx 10mm higher so -20mm lower than stock and near double the rate of the Tein, at least on front, i think that would work very well with the Koni's turned up a notch.
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 12:45
Northumberland roads for you. Lots of little hills, so coming off the crest at speed and then going down the hill, by the time you get to the bottom... *sccrraappee*.
Not once. Lots of times. That was on TTEs and stock (sub 25k miles) suspension.
Teins are even worse as they're lower.
I must be driving like Miss Daisy! :o :o
Cant remember bottoming out while driving, but like thetyrant, I back off when I see a nasty compression.
I have scraped the mid brace numerous times when going over speed bumps / uneven ground even when going slowly though!
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 12:45
Northumberland roads for you. Lots of little hills, so coming off the crest at speed and then going down the hill, by the time you get to the bottom... *sccrraappee*.
Quite; like the big bloke in the sky pushes down on you!
Now imagine próper mountains and well maintained tarmac. Add a slight crown to the country road and I have scraped the rear nappy of the lightened hígher car ;)
To the northwest of our village tte trucks from the stone quarry take short cut to the highway, avoiding the next village. It is officially a campo track with 40 km/h max but the quarry has managed to get it sorted with tarmac. Most corners have ´ruts´ which you oblong cross when pushing it. Managed to toutch the metal seam under the door sill under my bum. Ever so lightly but with the top and windows down, the sound was a proper scare.
To me if your bottoming/grounding out an MR2 on regular basis you need to ask if its the car for you as maybe your asking it to do something it never going to be good at, or just accept its compromised in this area and put up with it, after all they are a cheap, low slung nimble little sportscars not a rally car able to cope with big bumps and jumps and to make them do that well would spoil what its all about imo, it maybe just a different driving style on bad sections of road is needed or probably more likely a different car is the real answer.
Ive owned nearly 40 cars over the years and all too often ive bought something to try and do everything well and nearly always disappointed in some areas often leading to selling the car again, i bought the MR2 as cheap mid engine/rwd fun car for fast road blasts and trackday/sprint events, trying to keep budget sensible is the hard part as i love to try different things especially suspension. However if i wanted to be able to attack bumpy back roads in anger i would buy another Evo as they just deal with it, but ive been there done that 5 times already and like to try new things :D
Mine doesn't ground at all... It's on BCs :)
Quote from: shnazzle on May 30, 2019, 15:39
Mine doesn't ground at all... It's on BCs :)
:P yeah it just shakes your teeth out when it gets bumpy lol :D
Quote from: thetyrant on May 30, 2019, 15:28
To me if your bottoming/grounding out an MR2 on regular basis you need to ask if its the car for you as maybe your asking it to do something it never going to be good at, or just accept its compromised in this area and put up with it, after all they are a cheap, low slung nimble little sportscars not a rally car able to cope with big bumps and jumps and to make them do that well would spoil what its all about imo, it maybe just a different driving style on bad sections of road is needed or probably more likely a different car is the real answer.
Ive owned nearly 40 cars over the years and all too often ive bought something to try and do everything well and nearly always disappointed in some areas often leading to selling the car again, i bought the MR2 as cheap mid engine/rwd fun car for fast road blasts and trackday/sprint events, trying to keep budget sensible is the hard part as i love to try different things especially suspension. However if i wanted to be able to attack bumpy back roads in anger i would buy another Evo as they just deal with it, but ive been there done that 5 times already and like to try new things :D
Hear, hear.
As I wrote my MR is really quite good enough* and restoring the consquences of me upsetting the ride height will be the ticket. Thát is after all the subject of the thread ;)
As I also wrote I expect to still have the ´float´ issue through undulating highway corners at highly illegal speeds but hey, I can live with that.
I want the full cabrio experience, so the MX5 and MR2 are the only realistic options.
As I wrote in my intro on the forum, I had to sort out my access path to the farm to be able to get home. Now the green is in full bloom and só pretty that I don´t dare cut it down, mearing the bottom of the MR gets properly brushed. Again not the cár´s issue but it is a a mý real world factor that makes I don´t want the lower, just back to standard.
* Again as I wrote, só nicely balanced that I am véry cautious not to spoil that. I (very) occasionally ground it and that is hardly the car´s fault :-[ , more a testimony of how good it handles.
I had the float issue with my car also, changed springs and sorted alignment this helped a lot but changing dampers sorted it totally.
Im sorry to sound like a broken record but I must emphasize that subjectivity only comes after you have the correct damping.
Bottoming out, harshness of the drive and so forth are all products of poor damping due to incorrect design of the damper, valving and not enough shock oil in the case of the Koni inserts. I know this is a budgeted car however buying correct suspension is the price of admission, after that you can add whatever you like and use whatever tires you like. Paying double for these options will not get you double the performance, it will get you the right performance that only a researched option will give you.
This is the same with poly bushings, they have to be researched otherwise you will have odd and sometimes dangerous behavior.
Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2019, 17:45Paying double for these options will not get you double the performance,
That is the law of deminishing returms.
The rule of thumb is that departing from an average ´good´(in this case new OEM shocks/springs), every new level in quality/performance/finish will cost as much as the accumulated steps befor.
The MR2 being an affordable, at least 15 year old, runabout is a complicating perspective.
The age is imo more of a complication than the price. The latter depends on how much value one sees in the experience.
The age is a hárd isue as all of the car will be suboptimal. You mention bushes, let´s add engine mounts, all steering joints, wheel bearings, etcetera.
That gives the perspective of the chain being onsly so strong as the weakest link.
The topic opener is a good example. My issue is the ride height.
That takes us to lowering springs which puts the damping into question which puts replacement dampers into question and down that rabbit hole we find top notch coil overs shining embarassing light on all moving bits/bushings/rubbers/bearings of the chassis.
Quite a neat interesting thread this has turned out to be with a plethora of different, informed, opinions and experiences!!
The seat mounts have arrived in the post office. I´ll try pick them up tomorrow and have a look. Hoping they need only minor mods for the Luso seats.
Looking forward to fit those. If the gf´s refuse to come along, I will go on a road trip with my dog instead. Guaranteed to be less complicated :P
p.s. any rc model airplane enthusiasts on here? Not my field of expertise and trying to help my son avoid going down thát rabbit hole/ money pit ::)
Quote from: Petrus on May 30, 2019, 18:15
Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2019, 17:45Paying double for these options will not get you double the performance,
That is the law of deminishing returms.
The rule of thumb is that departing from an average ´good´(in this case new OEM shocks/springs), every new level in quality/performance/finish will cost as much as the accumulated steps befor.
The MR2 being an affordable, at least 15 year old, runabout is a complicating perspective.
The age is imo more of a complication than the price. The latter depends on how much value one sees in the experience.
The age is a hárd isue as all of the car will be suboptimal. You mention bushes, let´s add engine mounts, all steering joints, wheel bearings, etcetera.
That gives the perspective of the chain being onsly so strong as the weakest link.
The topic opener is a good example. My issue is the ride height.
That takes us to lowering springs which puts the damping into question which puts replacement dampers into question and down that rabbit hole we find top notch coil overs shining embarassing light on all moving bits/bushings/rubbers/bearings of the chassis.
Quite a neat interesting thread this has turned out to be with a plethora of different, informed, opinions and experiences!!
The seat mounts have arrived in the post office. I´ll try pick them up tomorrow and have a look. Hoping they need only minor mods for the Luso seats.
Looking forward to fit those. If the gf´s refuse to come along, I will go on a road trip with my dog instead. Guaranteed to be less complicated :P
p.s. any rc model airplane enthusiasts on here? Not my field of expertise and trying to help my son avoid going down thát rabbit hole/ money pit ::)
Actually what I was implying is that in this case there is no diminishing returns. There is only one right way to dampen and that is determined by extensive research, either by probs on real cars with computers gathering data or the shaker rig that KW uses.
If you look at three of the researched options you will notice a few things that stand out and that is they are twin tube designed and they use spring rates that are very close to each other. I remember looking at a dyno graph for the KW and Tein SSP long ago and the damping was very similar.
I imagine if we look at the Cusco shock dyno I bet its similar also.
You don't buy the more expensive street coilover to race. These options were made primarily for street duty and mild track use where they will perform upto a minimum standard that can be far more punishing and where durability is a concern. Just about everything else unless it is researched will be substandard and not a compromise. You will have stiff suspension giving you the illusion of more responsive feedback like a brace or sway bars but it's not the same thing as good damping soaking up the irregularities on the road and literally hugging the road maximizing traction.
What the Chinese copy cats should have done is replicate a researched set but for what ever reason, probably cost they didn't because its much easier to use the same strut body and add difference mounts for a wide range of applications to save costs.
Some people have taken apart the BC coilovers and have modified the valving which might be an option to make them a little better but I really don't know if its even worth doing.
Those Superpro bushings that were developed by an Australian company for our car were made with research. I know the guy that sent brand new Toyota bushings to the factory and the engineers were able to replicate them in poly.
That is how its supposed to be done and if its off it can be disastrous and mistakes have happened with other poly bushing manufactures.
Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2019, 22:13
Actually what I was implying is that in this case there is no diminishing returns. There is only one right way to dampen and that is determined by extensive research, either by probs on real cars with computers gathering data or the shaker rig that KW uses.
Implying that the car as Toyota sold it was substandard?
I get what you imply Dev, but we differ in opinion.
Btw. You yourself wrote that a set costing twice the money does not buy you twice as good a product. That ís deminishing returns ;)
Oh, and I remain that in a 15+ years old car, a top notch set of coil overs will highlight several other weak links. In effect resulting in the coils overs not being used to their full potential. This too apllies to the driver skills; not all will use the potential. I would go as far as to state that the average driver is the weakest link and the potential of an average good suspension already beyond their driving.
All in all, a set of quality coil overs will be overkill for many a car/driver and as such an unneccessary expense.
The resident female here in the mountains p.e. needs abs and good tyres with shocks keeping those on the tarmac at below legal speeds. For the rest a large SUV with good bumpers/bull bars and a reverse camera :D
Quote from: Petrus on May 31, 2019, 06:00
Quote from: Dev on May 30, 2019, 22:13
Actually what I was implying is that in this case there is no diminishing returns. There is only one right way to dampen and that is determined by extensive research, either by probs on real cars with computers gathering data or the shaker rig that KW uses.
Implying that the car as Toyota sold it was substandard?
Btw. You yourself wrote that a set costing twice the money does not buy you twice as good a product. That ís deminishing returns ;)
Let me break down these two sentences.
Toyota as well as almost all cars manufactured have done extensive research and development on the damping. They use shaker rigs, gather data with sensors hooked up to dampers, shock dynos and computer modeling. After that the cars are extensively road tested by experts until they get it right. A subcontractor like KYB makes the dampers to specification with the right shock body, valving and spring rates.
I would argue that the stock shocks for most road going vehicles are the ultimate standard however they are built with practicality, safety and budget in mind, not ultimate handling however they got the damper settings right.
As to the next sentence and you have to excuse my dry wit. What I meant is, most people think when you buy budgeted you get the maximum amount of value compared to the more expensive product where it becomes diminishing returns and not double the effect.
Although it might be true for a lot of items it is certainly not true if the budget option is wrong.
It would be better to compare like items like the TRD to the TEIN SSP, TEIN SSP to the KW and so forth then an argument can be made as to how much of a difference you are getting with a more expensive option.
Unfortunately we don't have cheaper options that are manufactured and designed close to how Toyota as developed the damping for this car but for a more performance effect with some compromises.
It would have been nice if Koni were to have made an actual budgeted strut replacement that uses their own tested springs. That would have been a great option but they only offer inserts. Some other platforms have them and they are reasonably priced but unfortunately because of the limited aftermarket for our cars we only have expensive choices to choose from.
These are the coilovers I have had on my cars:
List from most street comfortable to least ( spring rates listed)
Koni (custom housing, helper springs)
Koni (stock struts/springs)
KW (4/5kg)
Ohlins (5/7kg)
Tein monosport (4/5kg)
Tein ssp (3/6kg)
Tein HA (3/6kg)
Stance/power Trix/buddy club (5/7)
BC (5/7)
D2 (5/7)
I have s shock dyno in my garage and keep a library of spyder shock dyno charts. It interesting to see the different tuning philosophy between the companies. Some are too conservatives, others just plain lazy, some are strictly tuned for track use. Most of the coilovers developed in the 90s and early 2000s used linear pistons. Even some of the twintubes used on the spyder are barely digressive. They have to use stiffer springs to try to make up for lack of low speed damping.
A newer shock such as monosport, KW, or custom koni with more digressive pistons works magic on this car.
Also you can replace the pistons in the BC with double digressive bilstein pistons. They are the same size. You can get s fantastic adjustable digressive monotube setup that is hard to beat for the price. I have built a couple of these.
Quote from: silversprint on June 3, 2019, 18:13
These are the coilovers I have had on my cars:
List from most street comfortable to least ( spring rates listed)
Koni (custom housing, helper springs)
Koni (stock struts/springs)
KW (4/5kg)
Ohlins (5/7kg)
Tein monosport (4/5kg)
Tein ssp (3/6kg)
Tein HA (3/6kg)
Stance/power Trix/buddy club (5/7)
BC (5/7)
D2 (5/7)
I have s shock dyno in my garage and keep a library of spyder shock dyno charts. It interesting to see the different tuning philosophy between the companies. Some are too conservatives, others just plain lazy, some are strictly tuned for track use. Most of the coilovers developed in the 90s and early 2000s used linear pistons. Even some of the twintubes used on the spyder are barely digressive. They have to use stiffer springs to try to make up for lack of low speed damping.
A newer shock such as monosport, KW, or custom koni with more digressive pistons works magic on this car.
Also you can replace the pistons in the BC with double digressive bilstein pistons. They are the same size. You can get s fantastic adjustable digressive monotube setup that is hard to beat for the price. I have built a couple of these.
Tell me more about the BC mod... :)
Quote from: silversprint on June 3, 2019, 18:13
These are the coilovers I have had on my cars:
List from most street comfortable to least ( spring rates listed)
Koni (custom housing, helper springs)
Koni (stock struts/springs)
KW (4/5kg)
Ohlins (5/7kg)
Tein monosport (4/5kg)
Tein ssp (3/6kg)
Tein HA (3/6kg)
Stance/power Trix/buddy club (5/7)
BC (5/7)
D2 (5/7)
I have s shock dyno in my garage and keep a library of spyder shock dyno charts. It interesting to see the different tuning philosophy between the companies. Some are too conservatives, others just plain lazy, some are strictly tuned for track use. Most of the coilovers developed in the 90s and early 2000s used linear pistons. Even some of the twintubes used on the spyder are barely digressive. They have to use stiffer springs to try to make up for lack of low speed damping.
A newer shock such as monosport, KW, or custom koni with more digressive pistons works magic on this car.
Also you can replace the pistons in the BC with double digressive bilstein pistons. They are the same size. You can get s fantastic adjustable digressive monotube setup that is hard to beat for the price. I have built a couple of these.
Any experience with MeisterR? I find the springs to be rly unmatched to the dampers and have no idea if i should go stiffer or softer. Any idea what test i can perform so i find this out?
Quote from: silversprint on June 3, 2019, 18:13
These are the coilovers I have had on my cars:
Thank you for sharing the wealth of personal first hand experience.
btw, off thís topic but; could you please, please pretty please share aphoto of the large wing ;D
Quote from: silversprint on June 3, 2019, 18:13
These are the coilovers I have had on my cars:
List from most street comfortable to least ( spring rates listed)
Koni (custom housing, helper springs)
Koni (stock struts/springs)
KW (4/5kg)
Ohlins (5/7kg)
Tein monosport (4/5kg)
Tein ssp (3/6kg)
Tein HA (3/6kg)
Stance/power Trix/buddy club (5/7)
BC (5/7)
D2 (5/7)
I have s shock dyno in my garage and keep a library of spyder shock dyno charts. It interesting to see the different tuning philosophy between the companies. Some are too conservatives, others just plain lazy, some are strictly tuned for track use. Most of the coilovers developed in the 90s and early 2000s used linear pistons. Even some of the twintubes used on the spyder are barely digressive. They have to use stiffer springs to try to make up for lack of low speed damping.
A newer shock such as monosport, KW, or custom koni with more digressive pistons works magic on this car.
Also you can replace the pistons in the BC with double digressive bilstein pistons. They are the same size. You can get s fantastic adjustable digressive monotube setup that is hard to beat for the price. I have built a couple of these.
Interesting do you have dyno comparisons of Koni Sport vs KW V3 vs Tein Monosports vs BC as those are the main choices we have over here in the UK ?
Im currently on Koni Sport, Tein springs and Whiteline Arb to try and make a reasonable road/track compromise but of course its more road based with the soft springs, would be good to see the shock dyno differences with above to compare things for future setups as im torn between coilover spring conversion to increase rates on Konis or just change it all for Kw V3 or Tein MS im not sure.
My spring adventure postponed:
Emergency vehicle on the bridge yersterday/this morning ánd a death in the IoM that struck close to home has upset me, stirring up old trauma.
Will try tomorrow.
Fínally :P
Was a bit of a faff because the front spring is rather soft and I thus initially was too cautious.
Did a short spin so all it settled and the front now is 10mm below spec, the rear some 5.
The shortening will have a minute effect in stiffening; I doubt I´ll notice.
I will do a larger spin this afternoon and will be travelling the provincial road Antequera - Jerez to and fro on Sunday. This latter will be a serious proof of the puddin´.
What springs have you fitted ? or did you cut stock spring ?
Quote from: thetyrant on June 7, 2019, 15:29
What springs have you fitted ? or did you cut stock spring ?
Cut stock springs
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=66586.msg798907#msg798907
I used to think that I'd never be able to find a TRD Sportivo set. However, here is one on the Japanese Yahoo auction site:
http://auc.aleado.com/yahoo/lot?auctionID=c747223378
Admittedly they look bit worse for wear, which of course is to be expected after 16 years of service. What do you reckon? Is there still life in these? at 189 dollars it's quite tempting, although shipment will be quite a lot more than that.
Quote from: Snelbaard on June 12, 2019, 18:58at 189 dollars it's quite tempting, although shipment will be quite a lot more than that.
Add duties, shipping plus BTW plus clearing costs.
Say 100 shipping + 5% duties, so 115 rounded off.
Now add 22% BTW over the total.
Also add clearing costs incl. BTW.
No way it will stay under 400€
Oh absolutely, but that's still less than half of the most cheapskate coilovers. But would there still be life left in them? It'll be a gamble.
Quote from: Snelbaard on June 12, 2019, 18:58I used to think that I'd never be able to find a TRD Sportivo set. However, here is one on the Japanese Yahoo auction site:
http://auc.aleado.com/yahoo/lot?auctionID=c747223378
Admittedly they look bit worse for wear, which of course is to be expected after 16 years of service. What do you reckon? Is there still life in these? at 189 dollars it's quite tempting, although shipment will be quite a lot more than that.
Being from Japan there is a chance they could be very low mileage.
The sportivo was very well regarded by those that have experienced it.
I must add though that they are at least 12 years old and i wouldn't want to pay much for them.
Quote from: Snelbaard on June 12, 2019, 19:37Oh absolutely, but that's still less than half of the most cheapskate coilovers. But would there still be life left in them? It'll be a gamble.
They will most likely be ok. Yes a gamble but not a large one.
Also, it is a kit that actually adds value to the car because it is ´official´ TRD.