I have oil weeping on oil stem seals so they need changing if i keep this engine, anyone done them keeping the 1zz in the car before ?
Was doing some searching and found below thread and info on SC which is good and got me hopeful i could do it in situ using the valvemaster type tool, but it would have to come over from states, page 2 shows the guy using rope in cylinder method so you can do without removing head which is a neat trick ive not heard of for years!
https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/replacing-the-valve-oil-seals.38510/
I've personally removed and checked valve springs and replaced buckets on one cylinder using the in situ method with a length of string etc but it's quite a leap of faith/educated guesswork that you've got enough to stop the valves falling into the cylinder.
Bearing in mind you need to pull the original seals and tap the new ones home quite firmly I'd be inclined to pull the head off and do them on the bench.
You'll need a new head gasket obviously and probably some head bolts but depends how confident you are you won't drop a valve 😂
Could you not just set cylinder 1 and 4 at TDC change them then same on cylinders 3 and 4?
I've done all four cylinders. The string method was one recommended by myself, though I did mine by introducing compressed air via the spark plug hole. The string method works fine, though.
You do need a special tool to compress the springs - especially on the inlet side, as the space above the valve is limited. I made one and lent it to a couple of members, 'Midlife' being one of them.
Quote from: Call the midlife! on April 12, 2020, 18:51I've personally removed and checked valve springs and replaced buckets on one cylinder using the in situ method with a length of string etc but it's quite a leap of faith/educated guesswork that you've got enough to stop the valves falling into the cylinder.
Bearing in mind you need to pull the original seals and tap the new ones home quite firmly I'd be inclined to pull the head off and do them on the bench.
You'll need a new head gasket obviously and probably some head bolts but depends how confident you are you won't drop a valve 😂
Thanks for the insight much appreciated, as you say bit of a risk trying the rope in cylinder method as you cant see if you have enough in there to hold the valve up but might be only way for me, if i have to pull the head then i will pull the whole engine and fit a 2zz lol getting the head off with engine in car looks practicall impossible ?
Quote from: JB21 on April 12, 2020, 19:07Could you not just set cylinder 1 and 4 at TDC change them then same on cylinders 3 and 4?
Yes thats it you have piston about half way down its stroke then fill cylinder with rope and bring piston back up so rope holds valves in....hopefully! change all 4 guide seals on that cylinder and move onto next.
Quote from: Carolyn on April 12, 2020, 19:25I've done all four cylinders. The string method was one recommended by myself, though I did mine by introducing compressed air via the spark plug hole. The string method works fine, though.
You do need a special tool to compress the springs - especially on the inlet side, as the space above the valve is limited. I made one and lent it to a couple of members, 'Midlife' being one of them.
Good to hear you have done it this way thanks for info, i might be in touch for a loan/hire of that tool if still available ? :)
For those that havent seen pics on my turbo thread below is the pics of each set of exhaust valves...
cyl1.fromleft.jpg
cyl2-fromleft.jpg
cyl3-fromleft.jpg
cyl4-fromleft.jpg
Carolyn sort of took the wind out of my sails when she mentioned "introducing air" into the cylinders, this was an old indian trick from way back. Compressed air is introduced into the cylinder head by means of an adapter through the plug hole with the piston being positioned TDC, valves being held closed by the compressed
air, thus enabling the seals to be replaced. particularly with engines in the right place where access is restricted. Go for it Tyrant!
Quote from: kwnelson on April 16, 2020, 02:29Carolyn sort of took the wind out of my sails when she mentioned "introducing air" into the cylinders, this was an old indian trick from way back. Compressed air is introduced into the cylinder head by means of an adapter through the plug hole with the piston being positioned TDC, valves being held closed by the compressed
air, thus enabling the seals to be replaced. particularly with engines in the right place where access is restricted. Go for it Tyrant!
Yes ive thought about the air in cylinder method which ive seen used before, however i dont have a compressor and while i can borrow a small one from work i wouldnt trust it for this job, i will probably tackle the job but use the rope in cylinder method if i do just need to find some suitable material!, looking like another 3weeks off work for me so will have to find something to fill my time!
Just on the suitable material front - I've heard of some folk using silicone vacuum hose instead of rope to save time.
Might be worth a shot.
Quote from: Jay on April 16, 2020, 09:20Just on the suitable material front - I've heard of some folk using silicone vacuum hose instead of rope to save time.
Might be worth a shot.
Yes ive heard that as well, might get a plug out and see what i can feed most of in there :)
OK tackling this job today using guide i linked on 1st post in thread... got a new Toyota valve cover gasket from Steve @ GT4play, new seals and custom spring compressor from Carolyn (donation on way to club later today now ive been paid :D) and a set of valve seal removal pliers from Ebay so time to get cracking.
Few pictures of progress so far for those that havent seen inside the valve cover on a 1zz...
1- Before i started :)
head1.jpg
2- External parts like coils removed.
head2.jpg
3- Cover removed
head3.jpg
4- Cam Caps removed in correct order
head4.jpg
5- Time to get brave! cams removed, chain supported on Bungee although ive read it cant come off crank due to casing ? im being extra safe though!
head5.jpg
6- Buckets removed..
head6.jpg
Time for lunch and work out how well i can get rope into cylinder, so far tried 2 different types and thicker one seems better, got around 2 metres into bore when at bottom of stroke then rotated crank to lift piston to quish it into head chamber/valves etc, can still move valve a little so maybe redo it again to be sure, lunch first then back to it!
I'm sure you've already done this but I taped the end inch or so of rope up to stop fibres coming off and I could "feel" it touch the piston.
If I'd known you were going to be doing it I could've sent you my pliers and seal seating kit to borrow, rather than having to buy new.
Although the return postage costs would probably have been the same as the price of the tools and at least you've got them now, for next time...
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 1, 2020, 13:31I'm sure you've already done this but I taped the end inch or so of rope up to stop fibres coming off and I could "feel" it touch the piston.
If I'd known you were going to be doing it I could've sent you my pliers and seal seating kit to borrow, rather than having to buy new.
Although the return postage costs would probably have been the same as the price of the tools and at least you've got them now, for next time...
Yes i melted the ends of the rope to stop fraying and tied a knot in other end just to be sure, i just need to get brave now and get springs off so i can change seals! yes postage would probably have cost more than tools but thanks for considering it :)
I think we've already covered this but grease on the end of your collet removal pick is good, they're specialists for escaping.
When it comes to pulling the stem seals wear decent gloves and pad the underside of the engine lid and DON'T hit yourself in the face with the pliers everytime they pull off 😆
Best of luck...👍🏻
Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 1, 2020, 14:01I think we've already covered this but grease on the end of your collet removal pick is good, they're specialists for escaping.
When it comes to pulling the stem seals wear decent gloves and pad the underside of the engine lid and DON'T hit yourself in the face with the pliers everytime they pull off 😆
Best of luck...👍🏻
Using magnet and grease etc but refitting 1st one i lost 1 keeper!, they came out ok with magnet but going back in pinged off and went down into sump, which in schoolboy error i hadnt covered :( got a spare coming from C and i will drop oil and try and fish it out with magnet, dont really want to remove my sump as just fitted a new one but will if i have to.
2nd exh one went ok with different technique so hopefully rest do as well!
2 exh seals done came off quite easy and hole is well stretched compared to new ones!...onto 2 inlets on that cylinder now which is as far as i can go till keeper arrives
Quote from: thetyrant on May 1, 2020, 15:01Quote from: Call the midlife! on May 1, 2020, 14:01I think we've already covered this but grease on the end of your collet removal pick is good, they're specialists for escaping.
When it comes to pulling the stem seals wear decent gloves and pad the underside of the engine lid and DON'T hit yourself in the face with the pliers everytime they pull off 😆
Best of luck...👍🏻
Using magnet and grease etc but refitting 1st one i lost 1 keeper!, they came out ok with magnet but going back in pinged off and went down into sump, which in schoolboy error i hadnt covered :( got a spare coming from C and i will drop oil and try and fish it out with magnet, dont really want to remove my sump as just fitted a new one but will if i have to.
2nd exh one went ok with different technique so hopefully rest do as well!
2 exh seals done came off quite easy and hole is well stretched compared to new ones!...onto 2 inlets on that cylinder now which is as far as i can go till keeper arrives
Two collets in the post. I wouldn't worry about one sitting in the bottom of the sump. It's pretty safe where it is. Not likely to cause a problem there. Neat little tool isn't it?
Quote from: Carolyn on May 1, 2020, 15:15Two collets in the post. I wouldn't worry about one sitting in the bottom of the sump. It's pretty safe where it is. Not likely to cause a problem there. Neat little tool isn't it?
Thanks again you have been brilliant with all this :D
Tool is excellent invention :)
Ok 1 Cylinder all seals completed and 3 out of the 4 springs back on, just waiting on the collet keeper from C then i can get that final spring on and move along to next cylinder, happy enough with progress today and refined my technique by the last one and took very little time to complete :D
Interestingly both the exhaust seals pulled off really easily, inlet were a LOT more stubborn and off course access/angle isnt as good either which makes it worse, but they were much tighter onto valve guide than exh which needed very little force to pull off! no doubt the extra heat on exhaust side has degraded the rubber inside the cup.
Few more pics...
Carolyns special spring compressor in action!...nice bit of kit :D
head7.jpg
1st spring off and you can see the valve seal now.
head8.jpg
New and old Exhaust side valve stems seals, look at that slack alice on left!...no wonder we have leakage.
head9.jpg
All done for today back at it once i have the parts.
All good stuff! If you stick a strong magnet on the sump plug you might find it on your next oil change but as Carolynne says as long as it's in the sump it won't get past the pickup strainer anyway.
Quote from: thetyrant on May 1, 2020, 16:14Ok 1 Cylinder all seals completed and 3 out of the 4 springs back on, just waiting on the collet keeper from C then i can get that final spring on and move along to next cylinder, happy enough with progress today and refined my technique by the last one and took very little time to complete :D
Interestingly both the exhaust seals pulled off really easily, inlet were a LOT more stubborn and off course access/angle isnt as good either which makes it worse, but they were much tighter onto valve guide than exh which needed very little force to pull off! no doubt the extra heat on exhaust side has degraded the rubber inside the cup.
Few more pics...
Carolyns special spring compressor in action!...nice bit of kit :D
head7.jpg
1st spring off and you can see the valve seal now.
head8.jpg
New and old Exhaust side valve stems seals, look at that slack alice on left!...no wonder we have leakage.
head9.jpg
All done for today back at it once i have the parts.
Great pics and reporting. Thanks!
Also,.. Wow.. The slack on those seals.. That's unreal.
Want to do mine now
@thetyrant out of interest, what miles on that engine?
Quote from: Ardent on May 1, 2020, 21:33@thetyrant
out of interest, what miles on that engine?
I'm sure it says 105k on another thread?
@Call the midlife! appreciated.
Ok for a bit then if that's the case
Quote from: Ardent on May 1, 2020, 23:38@Call the midlife!
appreciated.
Ok for a bit then if that's the case
I reckon they'll let you know when they're ready 👍🏻
Quote from: Ardent on May 1, 2020, 21:33@thetyrant
out of interest, what miles on that engine?
105k and looks quite good inside apart from seals, no real wear on cam lobes or journals and valve clearances I checked measured in spec, only checked a couple but will do all once back together however its always run pretty quiet.
I thought it looked clean.
I imagine quiet satisfying knowing its done.
I hate you.
I've now got valve seals on the brain. The gaps calling me from outside
Quote from: shnazzle on May 2, 2020, 13:20I hate you.
I've now got valve seals on the brain. The gaps calling me from outside
Not sure if I've got a spare set left, can't remember if I sent a set to Spit or not with the spring compressor...
Quote from: shnazzle on May 2, 2020, 13:20I hate you.
I've now got valve seals on the brain. The gaps calling me from outside
If it ain't broke.... Is she using oil?
Quote from: Carolyn on May 2, 2020, 13:59Quote from: shnazzle on May 2, 2020, 13:20I hate you.
I've now got valve seals on the brain. The gaps calling me from outside
If it ain't broke.... Is she using oil?
Besides the point! It's knowing those gaps are there
Quote from: shnazzle on May 2, 2020, 14:40Quote from: Carolyn on May 2, 2020, 13:59Quote from: shnazzle on May 2, 2020, 13:20I hate you.
I've now got valve seals on the brain. The gaps calling me from outside
If it ain't broke.... Is she using oil?
Besides the point! It's knowing those gaps are there
I wouldn't worry if not using oil as C says, even on my car with those slack seals the was no gap visible when on the valve just not as much tension as the new ones, if you worried take manifold off and have a look in ports for any seepage like I had.
Just to add to this, below is picture of the port side of valves from cylinder1 that seal pic came from, looks probably best out of the 4 with no obvious oil on valve itself, be interest to see what seals look like on cylinder 2 which was worst for visible oil.
cyl4-fromleft.jpg
Still on with this, was delayed by loosing the collet/keeper and also im now back at work so less time to work on car, i have another keeper (huge thanks to kind members on here :)) so last night finished cylinder1 seals and springs/buckets all back on :)
Will get on with other cylinders this week so hopefully back up and running by the weekend, iv sorned the car now so no panic.
My 1zz burns oil, whats the best way to check if its valve stem seals? This looks like a job I could do to be honest!
Quote from: Akayfortyseven on May 12, 2020, 15:04My 1zz burns oil, whats the best way to check if its valve stem seals? This looks like a job I could do to be honest!
There are a few ways to test for stem seal wear but no simple 1 test that says for sure they are worn, mine was a visual check when i removed the exhaust manifold as you can see the exhaust valves and mine had oil seeping down them as per my pics on 1st page of this thread
Does your car smoke ? and if so when does it do it ? stem seal wear usually gives smoking after coasting off throttle then hitting accelerator but its not a definite test, the piston oil control rings are more common cause of oil usage/smoke on these and many think im wasting my time with stem seals, however its cheap enough to do (especially if you can do it yourself like me) so im giving it a go as they are certainly leaking oil.
Thanks for the reply. Cars on 90k, smokes when you blip the accelerator. Changed PCV for new genuine and also using a thicker oil, but still burning. Im aware its most likely the piston rings but if I replace them in the future I may as well do the stem seals. I have done the valve cover gasket in the past, so i just continue dissassmbling until I get to the point where I can insert the rope and remove the old seals?
My main concern would be the cam chain and getting that back properly!
If the tools are still 'in the group' when I get round to it it would be definately something I could do.
Quote from: Akayfortyseven on May 12, 2020, 15:04My 1zz burns oil, whats the best way to check if its valve stem seals? This looks like a job I could do to be honest!
Tyrant is right.
There's no sure way to tell if it's seals, or rings, or both. Have someone follow you while you change down fairly hard and use engine braking ('on the over-run'). If there's blue smoke - that's oil going past the valve seals.
Unfortunately, most oil burning in our engines is down to stuck oil control rings, which is an engine rebuild job to fix.
If you're taking the engine out and apart to fix oil control problems, the best time to do the seals is when you have the head off the engine and on the bench.
The special tool, btw., is not club property!
Quote from: Carolyn on May 12, 2020, 15:32Quote from: Akayfortyseven on May 12, 2020, 15:04My 1zz burns oil, whats the best way to check if its valve stem seals? This looks like a job I could do to be honest!
Tyrant is right.
There's no sure way to tell if it's seals, or rings, or both. Have someone follow you while you change down fairly hard and use engine braking ('on the over-run'). If there's blue smoke - that's oil going past the valve seals.
Unfortunately, most oil burning in our engines is down to stuck oil control rings, which is an engine rebuild job to fix.
If you're taking the engine out and apart to fix oil control problems, the best time to do the seals is when you have the head off the engine and on the bench.
The special tool, btw., is not club property!
Yeah, its just if I ever did the pistons, id most likely to the seals as well, so it makes sense to at least try this if its easier to do.
Ah, sorry, I thought it was something that members could use! No worries. By the way Carolyn, I think I met you a couple of years ago at Rutland MR2, I was getting a replacement bumper and bonnet, you had a silver MRS with a snazzy kit on it I think?
Quote from: Akayfortyseven on May 12, 2020, 15:35Quote from: Carolyn on May 12, 2020, 15:32Quote from: Akayfortyseven on May 12, 2020, 15:04My 1zz burns oil, whats the best way to check if its valve stem seals? This looks like a job I could do to be honest!
Tyrant is right.
There's no sure way to tell if it's seals, or rings, or both. Have someone follow you while you change down fairly hard and use engine braking ('on the over-run'). If there's blue smoke - that's oil going past the valve seals.
Unfortunately, most oil burning in our engines is down to stuck oil control rings, which is an engine rebuild job to fix.
If you're taking the engine out and apart to fix oil control problems, the best time to do the seals is when you have the head off the engine and on the bench.
The special tool, btw., is not club property!
Yeah, its just if I ever did the pistons, id most likely to the seals as well, so it makes sense to at least try this if its easier to do.
Ah, sorry, I thought it was something that members could use! No worries. By the way Carolyn, I think I met you a couple of years ago at Rutland MR2, I was getting a replacement bumper and bonnet, you had a silver MRS with a snazzy kit on it I think?
Yes -that was me. I do lend the tool out, but it's a one-off specially made tool, so it's quite precious. I just don't want it being sent from one person to another without it being returned to me first.
Next time I have it back, I will copy it, so it's not the only one in existence.
Quote from: Akayfortyseven on May 12, 2020, 15:29Thanks for the reply. Cars on 90k, smokes when you blip the accelerator. Changed PCV for new genuine and also using a thicker oil, but still burning. Im aware its most likely the piston rings but if I replace them in the future I may as well do the stem seals. I have done the valve cover gasket in the past, so i just continue dissassmbling until I get to the point where I can insert the rope and remove the old seals?
My main concern would be the cam chain and getting that back properly!
If the tools are still 'in the group' when I get round to it it would be definately something I could do.
Its a MUCH bigger job than doing valve cover gasket, have a look at my pics earlier in the thread but its basically valve cover off, cam chain off, cams out then you can get cam buckets out to access the valves, not particularly difficult as long as your mechanically minded and have all the relevant tools, but as you can quite literally ruin the engine doing this job you need to be confident you have the ability before starting.
Ive fully rebuilt a cylinder head (off the engine) for another car i had so its all pretty familiar to me, biggest concern was doing this without removing head using the rope method etc but slow and steady it seems to be working... so far, that said ive only done 5 seals out of the 16 so not counting my chickens yet!
Im sure on mine its going to help reduce smoking as i can see its been leaking into ports, but whether it cures it completely we will have to wait and see, im not holding my breath but if it does i will be over the moon and even if it just reduces it to acceptable levels it will give me time to ponder next plan of action.
Good luck anyway! I recall when I changed my exhaust mani that there was oil there actually.
Got rest of cyl2 seals changed and all back together tonight after work so im half way now :D
If you had oil in the exhaust ports then good chance it was coming down valve seals, but as above might not just be that, below is picture of my worst leak which is cyl3 and next one im going to tackle.
cyl2-fromleft.jpg
Last 4 seals changed tonight and all ready to drop cams back in but thats tomorrows job...... hope it all times up ok and then runs as sweet as before... but with less/no smoke!
:D
OK update from today, got cams back in and all timed up which was a bit of a bugger about! but i got there in the end :) turned it over a few times with coils disconnected to get some oil up into cams then once connected she fired up and ran sweetly :D
Car is sorn'd so cant really test it fully but it does seem to of stopped smoking from minimal tesing ive done so far, fingers crossed once i get chance to test it more its fixed... or at least improved enough to not warrant an engine change just yet.
Couldnt wait until next month so taxed it today and took to work this morning, stopped in layby on way there after it was nicely warmed up to give it a good rev and watch exhaust, no smoke visible which is a result! but i will run it as daily for rest of week keeping an eye on things and see how oil level goes but so far so good :)
Quote from: thetyrant on May 19, 2020, 09:40Couldnt wait until next month so taxed it today and took to work this morning, stopped in layby on way there after it was nicely warmed up to give it a good rev and watch exhaust, no smoke visible which is a result! but i will run it as daily for rest of week keeping an eye on things and see how oil level goes but so far so good :)
Encouraging news!
OK another update now ive got some more miles on there and also had chance to work engine a bit harder, normal driving and in town etc no signs of blue smoke at all which is great, however if you really work the engine hard at high revs there is some blue smoke coming out which increases the harder you rev, not terrible but its there and shouldnt be any so a partial result as i expected really, i didnt expect the stem seals to cure it completely as after all this is 105k mile engine which has a known weakness in piston design!
Where do we go from here, well im going to run it around for awhile see what oil consumption is like now, if it doesnt really use it when not thrashing it (which i rarley do on road) i will try to just not think about it and keep a close eye on levels until my next trackday and then see what its like there.
Also made enquires with Mr Sloan about a good used 1zz he did have available but its probably gone now, also pondering a 2zz swap but no real panic to do anything at moment and car runs nicely enough so just going to enjoy it :D
@thetyrant Do you know what your oil consumption was before?
Mls/mile
Quote from: Ardent on May 20, 2020, 16:27@thetyrant
Do you know what your oil consumption was before?
Mls/mile
I havent monitored it that closely really its just previously i never really had to put oil in and then i started noticing it needed some recently, at Croft track earlier this year when still turbo'd it used probably a litre over the duration of he day which was only maybe 100 track miles, of course track miles are much harder than road miles though with lots of full throttle, ive done maybe 80miles this week so since i did stem seals and its moved down a little on dipstick but as you know its not the easiest thing to read accurately! will keep a close eye over next few days and see what happens.
I bow to your far superior tech/mech knowledge than mine.
But Just to bring things back to basics and the vanilla which I understand. Anything less than one liter per 621 miles or 1000kms is deemed within spec.
From the F mark on the stick. Each 1mm below is equivalent to 50ml of oil.
Indeed but i think im using a lot more than that, i could just potter about and keep it topped up but blue smoke at high revs is not acceptable to me and not good for cat etc either, however i am monitoring everyday to see how it goes but more work or changing engine is inevitable i think.
Im going to see an engine Dick Sloan has available at weekend which is in a car so can hear it running and inspect etc, meant to be a good one but will see.
So ive done about 200 miles now and while its only visibly smoking at high revs now (not on overrun like before) its still got a thirst for oil, dipstick level has gone from 3/4 full to 1/4 full in that mileage and its mostly steady driving, no real thrashing of it.
Its such a shame as this engine runs so well otherwise however i cant be having that much oil consumption, also its not doing the cat and 02 sensors etc any good so i went to view/listen to a 76k mile engine Dick Sloan was breaking on saturday, it was a bit grubby on outside as valvecover gasket and tensioner oring were typical leaking but it ran really nice and quiet with no signs of smoking, 02 sensors and precats all nice and clean and popped valvecover off to inspect cams etc, they looked good and while inside of cover was a bit brown its not terrible and all main bits decent enough so i got him to drop it down last night, ive now cleaned off all the crud built up from leaks mentioned above and just need to get a clutch for it then i can work out when i can get it swapped in. Its going to be tight in my little garage but will get it done im sure.
Once this smoking engine is out will be stripping to inspect the pistons and bores, if its just gummed up rings and all rest is good will probably get new rings etc for it, may even go back in if this other engine gives issues.
Any merit in swapping heads given the work you have just done?
Quote from: Ardent on May 26, 2020, 15:49Any merit in swapping heads given the work you have just done?
Ive thought about it but no visual leaks down valve stems on new engine in exh ports at least so not going to bother, also to change head engine really needs to come out anyhows as its a mega mission due to access etc with it in place.
Once my engine is out i will get head off and pistons out so i can see what these old oil rings are like, its a shame its not easier to get head off with engine in car as wanted to just do that and take sump off so i could pull pistons out, on further advice getting head off without dropping engine isnt for me :)