Ok following on from my other thread about fitting a used engine which didnt work out :( ive decided to pull my original 105k mile engine apart and assess it for possible rebuild as one of my options going forward.
Last night got the head off and so far it looks reasonable in there, i need to inspect/measure the timing chain and slippers etc to see if they are ok to reuse but i suspect so.
Bores look ok visually with no obvious wear and cross hatching still visible, will see if i can borrow a bore gauge to measure them for ovality and general size but dont see any obvious issues.
Next job is sump off and pistons out to see what state bigends are in and how bad the oil ring/holes etc look, im hoping nicely gummed up which explains the oil usage.
Parts that so far will definitely need replacing below....
Headgasket
Head Bolts
Intake Manifold to head seal
Crankshaft seal in timing case
Waterpump (signs of seepage on shaft)
Will be adding to this as i go, pistons not sure whether to just clean up/mod and refit or fit some of the 8 hole ones from Mag engine, will see what they look like once removed.
Oil pump not sure if worth changing this or not ?
Any tips welcome and few pics of progress so far below...
headoff.jpg
head1.jpg
Bore1
bore1.jpg
Bore2
bore2.jpg
Bore3
bore3.jpg
Bore4
bore4.jpg
Get a service manual, there are specs of what to replace at what point, might have a few spare parts for you such as timing chains, oil pumps and various gaskets - have quite a lot spare in the garage!
Will be interesting to see what the pistons are like.
From memory you can do a complete soft rebuild with around £300 of parts. New timing chain kit, water pump etc.. new pistons will obviously cost a fair bit.
Those bores definitely need honing.
You might as well put in a new thermostat while you've got it on the stand.
Pistons can generally be re-used, we enlarge the oil holes with a slight overlap on the bottom land and add a third one to each side.
Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 09:01Those bores definitely need honing.
You might as well put in a new thermostat while you've got it on the stand.
Pistons can generally be re-used, we enlarge the oil holes with a slight overlap on the bottom land and add a third one to each side.
Yes i will dig out my honing tool for the bores they are a bit smooth but generally in good order from what i can see.
New thermostat went in not long before i pulled motor so that is one less thing to buy!.
Im curious to see what pistons are like and tempted to reuse if they clean up and maybe send to you for your mods, that said these 8 hole Mag pistons (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PISTON-RING-SET-TOYOTA-1ZZ-FE-0-50-FOR-COROLLA-AVENSIS-CELICA-1-8-LTR-PETROL/183263355018?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D866055b7456c4d4293ca5aa19d35d010%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D392749202991%26itm%3D183263355018%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DAftermarket+Products&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad110b15b-b529-11ea-a8f5-74dbd180ed1c%7Cparentrq%3Ae03fd5661720a4cc0a4157b7fff46df4%7Ciid%3A1) are not a lot of money but they only listing .5 oversize at moment, ive asked if they have any in stock bore size.
What have you see oil pump wise on these? is it worth me removing to inspect/replace etc ?
Also tempted to throw some uprated rods in so i dont need to worry about stock ones if i boost it again, thing is i dont know if im going too do that so would be a bit of a waste for N/A motor, also if i do boost it i dont think i would go much over 220hp/trq so stock ones should be fine, however i can probably get a good discount on these ... https://www.part-box.com/4-br-028-02-bw-bridgeway-billet-4340-connecting-rods-h-beam-toyota-1zz-fe
I think if i was going to go down this route a complete strip and build would be best, i need to remind myself this is meant to be a low budget fun car....not a fire breathing monster....hmmm :D
I've got MAGs in my MR S. They are excellent quality. We'd be happy to modify yours, though - we've done it on a few and they've all worked out fine. A good long soak in diesel/kero makes it a lot easier to clean them up.
The oil pumps are pretty bullet proof. I've never heard of a failure. (Now I've said that, doubtless someone will have a tale about a failure!)
You're right about the stock rods.
You can go mad on upgrades!!
Haha yes its hard to draw the line sometime with mods :D Good info on oil pump think i will leave it alone providing bearings look ok, certainly top end does so dont think we are lacking oil pressure.
Got sump off this morning before work so will have pistons/rods out tonight... if i can find my multipoint sockets for bigend caps! used to have nothing else but they have nearly all been replaced with 6 sided now and typical i need them again lol
Interested to see what big ends are like, im thinking if no signs of wear
Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 09:19Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 09:01Those bores definitely need honing.
You might as well put in a new thermostat while you've got it on the stand.
Pistons can generally be re-used, we enlarge the oil holes with a slight overlap on the bottom land and add a third one to each side.
Yes i will dig out my honing tool for the bores they are a bit smooth but generally in good order from what i can see.
New thermostat went in not long before i pulled motor so that is one less thing to buy!.
Im curious to see what pistons are like and tempted to reuse if they clean up and maybe send to you for your mods, that said these 8 hole Mag pistons (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PISTON-RING-SET-TOYOTA-1ZZ-FE-0-50-FOR-COROLLA-AVENSIS-CELICA-1-8-LTR-PETROL/183263355018?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D866055b7456c4d4293ca5aa19d35d010%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D392749202991%26itm%3D183263355018%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DAftermarket+Products&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad110b15b-b529-11ea-a8f5-74dbd180ed1c%7Cparentrq%3Ae03fd5661720a4cc0a4157b7fff46df4%7Ciid%3A1) are not a lot of money but they only listing .5 oversize at moment, ive asked if they have any in stock bore size.
What have you see oil pump wise on these? is it worth me removing to inspect/replace etc ?
I have a 79.5mm taper piston ring compressor if you need it :)
Quote from: m1tch on June 23, 2020, 10:55Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 09:19Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 09:01Those bores definitely need honing.
You might as well put in a new thermostat while you've got it on the stand.
Pistons can generally be re-used, we enlarge the oil holes with a slight overlap on the bottom land and add a third one to each side.
Yes i will dig out my honing tool for the bores they are a bit smooth but generally in good order from what i can see.
New thermostat went in not long before i pulled motor so that is one less thing to buy!.
Im curious to see what pistons are like and tempted to reuse if they clean up and maybe send to you for your mods, that said these 8 hole Mag pistons (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PISTON-RING-SET-TOYOTA-1ZZ-FE-0-50-FOR-COROLLA-AVENSIS-CELICA-1-8-LTR-PETROL/183263355018?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D866055b7456c4d4293ca5aa19d35d010%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D392749202991%26itm%3D183263355018%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DAftermarket+Products&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad110b15b-b529-11ea-a8f5-74dbd180ed1c%7Cparentrq%3Ae03fd5661720a4cc0a4157b7fff46df4%7Ciid%3A1) are not a lot of money but they only listing .5 oversize at moment, ive asked if they have any in stock bore size.
What have you see oil pump wise on these? is it worth me removing to inspect/replace etc ?
I have a 79.5mm taper piston ring compressor if you need it :)
I'll remember you have one as well when my time comes :)
I've got the clamp type but don't like the look of it
Remember 79.5mm is only good if your overboring to suit ;) , these taper compressors need to be bang on from what ive seen at work so you cant use the 79.5mm one on a stock 79mm bore despite being very close.
I pulled a couple of the pistons out at lunchtime and much to my dismay them and rings all look pretty decent considering the mileage, at least on initial visual inspection as all rings are not gummed up, free to rotate and move as they should, i havent removed the rings yet to check the oil holes yet though will do that later when i get rest out, is it typical for rings to seem ok but oil holes blocked still ?
Bearings and crank look nearly new so think i will run them all again, unless some have found that a bad move on these ? ive done it before on other engines and always worked ok even when torn down again for other issues in future.
Pic of pistons out of bore 1 below..
mr2-piston1.jpg
Quote from: shnazzle on June 23, 2020, 13:06Quote from: m1tch on June 23, 2020, 10:55Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 09:19Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 09:01Those bores definitely need honing.
You might as well put in a new thermostat while you've got it on the stand.
Pistons can generally be re-used, we enlarge the oil holes with a slight overlap on the bottom land and add a third one to each side.
Yes i will dig out my honing tool for the bores they are a bit smooth but generally in good order from what i can see.
New thermostat went in not long before i pulled motor so that is one less thing to buy!.
Im curious to see what pistons are like and tempted to reuse if they clean up and maybe send to you for your mods, that said these 8 hole Mag pistons (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PISTON-RING-SET-TOYOTA-1ZZ-FE-0-50-FOR-COROLLA-AVENSIS-CELICA-1-8-LTR-PETROL/183263355018?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D866055b7456c4d4293ca5aa19d35d010%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D392749202991%26itm%3D183263355018%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DAftermarket+Products&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ad110b15b-b529-11ea-a8f5-74dbd180ed1c%7Cparentrq%3Ae03fd5661720a4cc0a4157b7fff46df4%7Ciid%3A1) are not a lot of money but they only listing .5 oversize at moment, ive asked if they have any in stock bore size.
What have you see oil pump wise on these? is it worth me removing to inspect/replace etc ?
I have a 79.5mm taper piston ring compressor if you need it :)
I'll remember you have one as well when my time comes :)
I've got the clamp type but don't like the look of it
I had the clamp type but it worked out cheaper for me to buy a taper piston ring compressor than to snap or damage a ring putting them in the block!
Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 14:30Remember 79.5mm is only good if your overboring to suit ;) , these taper compressors need to be bang on from what ive seen at work so you cant use the 79.5mm one on a stock 79mm bore despite being very close.
I pulled a couple of the pistons out at lunchtime and much to my dismay them and rings all look pretty decent considering the mileage, at least on initial visual inspection as all rings are not gummed up, free to rotate and move as they should, i havent removed the rings yet to check the oil holes yet though will do that later when i get rest out, is it typical for rings to seem ok but oil holes blocked still ?
Bearings and crank look nearly new so think i will run them all again, unless some have found that a bad move on these ? ive done it before on other engines and always worked ok even when torn down again for other issues in future.
Pic of pistons out of bore 1 below..
mr2-piston1.jpg
With regards to bearings, OEM makes are Taiho and Daido, they are very cheap for a full set so might be worth swapping them out whilst its apart.
Quote from: m1tch on June 23, 2020, 14:33With regards to bearings, OEM makes are Taiho and Daido, they are very cheap for a full set so might be worth swapping them out whilst its apart.
Noted thanks and I will see what the rest look like, its not so much about cost on this one for me but more about sizing as these are obviously well matched to the crank with oil film keeping them apart with no contact obvious so far, switching to new getting the sizing can be a bit of a fiddle in my experience but we will see.
The original bearings are sized to the rods, with four graded thicknesses of the 'standard' shells. That's Toyota being OCD. If they look ok and clean, I'd use them again, as the graded ones are from Toyota and they ain't cheap.
You could put in a fresh set of 'standard' - one-size-fits all, shells and they'll be within tolerance for oil clearance. Unless you have a rod with a 'four' stamped on it, which might be worth checking with plasti-gauge.
Early oil control rings weren't too great, so fresh rings and a good honing will make a big difference.
You're right, that piston looks pretty good.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 14:50Quote from: m1tch on June 23, 2020, 14:33With regards to bearings, OEM makes are Taiho and Daido, they are very cheap for a full set so might be worth swapping them out whilst its apart.
Noted thanks and I will see what the rest look like, its not so much about cost on this one for me but more about sizing as these are obviously well matched to the crank with oil film keeping them apart with no contact obvious so far, switching to new getting the sizing can be a bit of a fiddle in my experience but we will see.
I will check my stock of parts, might have a spare oil pump, head gasket, timing chain etc if needed.
Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 14:53The original bearings are sized to the rods, with four graded thicknesses of the 'standard' shells. That's Toyota being OCD. If they look ok and clean, I'd use them again, as the graded ones are from Toyota and they ain't cheap.
You could put in a fresh set of 'standard' - one-size-fits all, shells and they'll be within tolerance for oil clearance. Unless you have a rod with a 'four' stamped on it, which might be worth checking with plasti-gauge.
Early oil control rings weren't too great, so fresh rings and a good honing will make a big difference.
You're right, that piston looks pretty good.
OK thanks for the info on bearing sounds like same as Mitsubishi with at least 4 sizes for stock size! if all bearings are good as ive seen so far will refit.
Ive pulled the rings off 1 piston this afternoon and its not terrible but not what i would call clean either! 2 oil holes i could see light through shining torch underside of piston, 2 on other side i couldnt but it was only oil really in there when prodded with a small drill and not badly gummed up but not ideal either, there is some crud in bottom of oil ring groove as you can see on pics below so not good.
Need to work out if i clean up/mod these pistons with new rings or go for the Mag engine 8hole design pistons and rings, tempted to go that way as not going to be a lot more than doing just rings and modding pistons etc by time ive shipped them about etc.
piston1exh.jpg
piston1intake.jpg
Quote from: m1tch on June 23, 2020, 15:20I will check my stock of parts, might have a spare oil pump, head gasket, timing chain etc if needed.
Cool let me know thanks, certainly headgasket would be of interest :D
Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 15:59Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 14:53The original bearings are sized to the rods, with four graded thicknesses of the 'standard' shells. That's Toyota being OCD. If they look ok and clean, I'd use them again, as the graded ones are from Toyota and they ain't cheap.
You could put in a fresh set of 'standard' - one-size-fits all, shells and they'll be within tolerance for oil clearance. Unless you have a rod with a 'four' stamped on it, which might be worth checking with plasti-gauge.
Early oil control rings weren't too great, so fresh rings and a good honing will make a big difference.
You're right, that piston looks pretty good.
OK thanks for the info on bearing sounds like same as Mitsubishi with at least 4 sizes for stock size! if all bearings are good as ive seen so far will refit.
Ive pulled the rings off 1 piston this afternoon and its not terrible but not what i would call clean either! 2 oil holes i could see light through shining torch underside of piston, 2 on other side i couldnt but it was only oil really in there when prodded with a small drill and not badly gummed up but not ideal either, there is some crud in bottom of oil ring groove as you can see on pics below so not good.
Need to work out if i clean up/mod these pistons with new rings or go for the Mag engine 8hole design pistons and rings, tempted to go that way as not going to be a lot more than doing just rings and modding pistons etc by time ive shipped them about etc.
piston1exh.jpg
piston1intake.jpg
Those are the later 'revised' pistons. The earlier ones had no overlap. What year is the car? Remember to add in for shipping and import duty....
Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 16:23Those are the later 'revised' pistons. The earlier ones had no overlap. What year is the car? Remember to add in for shipping and import duty....
Ahh i did wonder when i saw the slight hole overlap on bottom of ring grooves, its on 05 plate so early 2005 car.
Based on this would say a good clean up then new rings and fire them back in ?
Quote from: thetyrant on June 23, 2020, 16:50Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 16:23Those are the later 'revised' pistons. The earlier ones had no overlap. What year is the car? Remember to add in for shipping and import duty....
Ahh i did wonder when i saw the slight hole overlap on bottom of ring grooves, its on 05 plate so early 2005 car.
Based on this would say a good clean up then new rings and fire them back in ?
If it were me (having the mill and a jig available) I'd still enlarge the existing holes and add two more.
If you have needle files available, you could well do it by hand. They don't have to be perfectly round, just free of burrs. Hone the bores until the surfaces are uniform with a hood cross hatch and you'll be fine.
Quote from: Carolyn on June 23, 2020, 17:17If it were me (having the mill and a jig available) I'd still enlarge the existing holes and add two more.
If you have needle files available, you could well do it by hand. They don't have to be perfectly round, just free of burrs. Hone the bores until the surfaces are uniform with a hood cross hatch and you'll be fine.
Ok thanks i will have a think and maybe send you these down to mod as while i have a milling machine at work its always setup for something else!
Any recommendation on ring kits ?
Been doing some research on the various piston used on these 1zz motors over the years, this info i found on here but thought i would bring it into this thread for easy reference, if ive got any of this wrong let me know i will amend.
So 3 different pistons as below with difference in oil holes obvious thing, amount of holes is per face so x 2 for all holeson the piston, as in 2 hole pistons have 2 on each face so 4 in total on piston.
1999/12-2001/12 - PISTON - 1310122030 - Original - 2 small oil holes no overlap -
2001/12-2002/08 - PISTON - 1310122031 - 1st Revison 2 holes (larger?) BUT overlap on bottom of ring groove
2002/08-2005/05 - PISTON - 1310122031 - as above
2005/05-2005/09 - PISTON - 1310122032 - 2nd Revison 4 holes (larger?) overlap on bottom of ring groove
This 2nd revison is very rare in an MR2 i believe as it was introduced very late in production.
Rings seems to be 2 types as below
1999/12-2001/11 RING SET, 1301122090 - Original
2001/11-2002/08 RING SET, - 1301122150 - Revised
2002/08-2005/09 RING SET, - 1301122150 - Same as above
Ive been looking for good clear pictures of new pistons but only found 1 of 2nd revised 1310122032 as below..
piston22032.jpg
And piston out of my 2005 - edit to confirm its 1st revision 1310122031
piston1exh.jpg
pistonnumber.jpg
Brilliant post Ian!
I had an argument with someone on YouTube of all places about latest pistons in MR2s. He worked for a Toyota garage and was trying to a)educate me on the Toyota factory line process and b) convince me that there is no way the latest pistons won't be in all 1zz after they were made.
I gave up arguing with the idiot but as we all know, those rev1 and original pistons are the ones you're likely to see in any mr2 block.
As for the rings, it'd be good to get a pic of the differences between them. I've only seen descriptions of the differences
Quote from: shnazzle on June 24, 2020, 08:17Brilliant post Ian!
I had an argument with someone on YouTube of all places about latest pistons in MR2s. He worked for a Toyota garage and was trying to a)educate me on the Toyota factory line process and b) convince me that there is no way the latest pistons won't be in all 1zz after they were made.
I gave up arguing with the idiot but as we all know, those rev1 and original pistons are the ones you're likely to see in any mr2 block.
As for the rings, it'd be good to get a pic of the differences between them. I've only seen descriptions of the differences
Thanks, i pulled the info from deep in another thread on here but it wasnt laid out as clear as i have done above, makes it more obvious which years etc, of course late registered cars could have early pistons as well, im sure Dick Sloan mentioned there was a list of engine numbers which dictated piston fitted but ive not found it yet.
Most people that work in dealerships have no clue as you found out, ive come across a mere handful in my many years who actually had decent knowledge of what they were selling, its brilliant when you done find such a place/person though.
I dont think there would be much to see on rings as difference is probably very small as believe they are all interchangeable, could just be the grade of metal or slight difference on edge profile etc, however would be interesting to find out for sure.
Quote from: thetyrant on June 24, 2020, 16:33Quote from: shnazzle on June 24, 2020, 08:17Brilliant post Ian!
I had an argument with someone on YouTube of all places about latest pistons in MR2s. He worked for a Toyota garage and was trying to a)educate me on the Toyota factory line process and b) convince me that there is no way the latest pistons won't be in all 1zz after they were made.
I gave up arguing with the idiot but as we all know, those rev1 and original pistons are the ones you're likely to see in any mr2 block.
As for the rings, it'd be good to get a pic of the differences between them. I've only seen descriptions of the differences
Thanks, i pulled the info from deep in another thread on here but it wasnt laid out as clear as i have done above, makes it more obvious which years etc, of course late registered cars could have early pistons as well, im sure Dick Sloan mentioned there was a list of engine numbers which dictated piston fitted but ive not found it yet.
Most people that work in dealerships have no clue as you found out, ive come across a mere handful in my many years who actually had decent knowledge of what they were selling, its brilliant when you done find such a place/person though.
I dont think there would be much to see on rings as difference is probably very small as believe they are all interchangeable, could just be the grade of metal or slight difference on edge profile etc, however would be interesting to find out for sure.
I thought it was the scraper rings that were changed. The compression rings stayed the same right?
Still, I guess it'll be minor.
Quote from: shnazzle on June 24, 2020, 16:42Quote from: thetyrant on June 24, 2020, 16:33Quote from: shnazzle on June 24, 2020, 08:17Brilliant post Ian!
I had an argument with someone on YouTube of all places about latest pistons in MR2s. He worked for a Toyota garage and was trying to a)educate me on the Toyota factory line process and b) convince me that there is no way the latest pistons won't be in all 1zz after they were made.
I gave up arguing with the idiot but as we all know, those rev1 and original pistons are the ones you're likely to see in any mr2 block.
As for the rings, it'd be good to get a pic of the differences between them. I've only seen descriptions of the differences
Thanks, i pulled the info from deep in another thread on here but it wasnt laid out as clear as i have done above, makes it more obvious which years etc, of course late registered cars could have early pistons as well, im sure Dick Sloan mentioned there was a list of engine numbers which dictated piston fitted but ive not found it yet.
Most people that work in dealerships have no clue as you found out, ive come across a mere handful in my many years who actually had decent knowledge of what they were selling, its brilliant when you done find such a place/person though.
I dont think there would be much to see on rings as difference is probably very small as believe they are all interchangeable, could just be the grade of metal or slight difference on edge profile etc, however would be interesting to find out for sure.
I thought it was the scraper rings that were changed. The compression rings stayed the same right?
Still, I guess it'll be minor.
It was in the metallurgy. The earliest ones lost their resilience over time.
Cleaned up the pistons today ready to send off for modification and found some interesting exhaust valve witness marks on number 4 piston, picture below of this and number 1 for reference, they were not visible until i cleaned the carbon off and dont look recent but its a harsh enviroment so hard to tell for sure so bit of a mystery, will be checking valves for marks as well.
Piston 4 top with the marks...
piston4top.jpg
Piston 1 top without the marks!
piston1top.jpg
Just found a pic of piston4 before i removed and cleaned it see below, you can actually see the marks but i didnt spot them until cleaned.....weird!
piston4top-before.jpg
Wow. Rough past indeed.
Don't spend any more on that engine until I've had a good look at them.
Would you, please, you go a petrol-tight test on the valves?
Quote from: Carolyn on June 24, 2020, 17:42Don't spend any more on that engine until I've had a good look at them.
Would you, please, you go a petrol-tight test on the valves?
Will do, inspected and cleaned up valves tonight and no sign of any piston contact from what I can see. Will get plugs in and see if they are petrol tight later or tomorrow.
Ok while my food was cooking nipped back into garage and did the petrol test on the head 8) , seems we have some slight leakage on inlets but exhaust seem dry, cylinder 2 is worst see below for details, its not bad really for 105k if its never been touched, i guess i should be re-lapping these inlets?.
Filled with petrol @ 18:38
head18-38.jpg
Status after 5mins @ 18:43
head18-46.jpg
Status after 26mins @ 19:04
head19-04.jpg
Quote from: thetyrant on June 24, 2020, 19:49Ok while my food was cooking nipped back into garage and did the petrol test on the head 8) , seems we have some slight leakage on inlets but exhaust seem dry, cylinder 2 is worst see below for details, its not bad really for 105k if its never been touched, i guess i should be re-lapping these inlets?.
Filled with petrol @ 18:38
head18-38.jpg
Status after 5mins @ 18:43
head18-46.jpg
Status after 26mins @ 19:04
head19-04.jpg
I'd lap the lot.
Yes i think will get all valves out for inspection, clean up and lapping in.
I must say ive found a few surprises on this engine now its open, not only the 1 piston with marks as above but also spotted a what looked like silicone sealant in water chamber on head last night, see below for what i pulled out! there is mention on service history of water pump weeping and found lots of black silicone sealing it when i removed! guessing its been off/replaced to sort that in past with too much silicone used or old stuff not cleaned out but gone inside!, see below.
siliconesuprise.jpg
Another one was when i pulled crank angle sensor out there was a large piece of metal debris and also a few small ones stuck to it!...see below
cranksensor.jpg
Amazing what you find once you start pulling apart what you think is a good engine other than smoking issue.
That's almost identical to one of the pieces of metal I pulled out of the 2zz when I had it.
Fingers crossed the crank is in a good state
Also highlights the level of care "professional" shops sometimes take.
That's why it's so damn hard to find an outfit you can trust.
Bit of a slog for you but if you were looking to have work done properly, AK Automotive near Gateshead do all of this.
They charge a flat fee of 1000 for a drive-in/drive-out engine swap excluding parts and machining.
They have a dedicated engine build room. How many garages have you seen with this? I've seen a mechanic rebuild a BMW engine about 10ft from an open garage door at a local dealership on a windy day.
Doesn't mean it's crap work perse, but chances are slim that no foreign matter made it in right?
The water pump should not have sealant on it at all. Just the O ring.
The water pump cavity (sealed by the timing cover), does need good sealant, properly applied. Not silicone, however. Dirko Elhring grey is the stuff.
I'm only adding all this stuff to your thread in an effort to assist others, as this will be a very useful thread.
Great work!
Indeed there are some proper cowboys/corner cutters out there and after many years finding this out trying different places i now do as much as i can myself, then i can be sure its done right or if not its only me to blame :)
I know the guys at AK and they seem a decent bunch but would rather do it myself, any proper garage will have an engine build room and if they dont walk away if wanting engine work done, although just having the room doesnt always mean they know what they are doing and ive seen some dusty manky engine rooms as well!, many places just rely on oil pickup strainer and filter to catch any crap that gets in but that is of course not the attitude to be taking especially if your charging a customer for the work!
Crank looks perfect at least on the conrod big ends so dont expect mains to look any different, im not pulling the crank out to check though and happy enough looking at big ends and cam journals that nothing has got in the pressurised oil side.
So summary so far.
Engine stripped and ready to hone the bores
Pistons shipped off today for inspection/modification.
Valves to remove and inspect/lap in for better seal.
Cam chain to inspect/measure
Cam chain guides etc inspected and no noticable wear.
TPR ring set ordered
VICTOR REINZ Top End gasket set with Head bolts ordered.
Water pump still to order and probably a few other bits yet! :)
I'd be tempted to add skimming the head to that list.
Quote from: Carolyn on June 25, 2020, 09:16I'd be tempted to add skimming the head to that list.
It is in my mind to do it but im going to give it a good inspection with straight edge etc first, ive nobody local i would trust to skim it either which doesnt help or i would just drop it in.
Spoken to only local machine shop i trust today and he is going to tickle/skim head for me :) will get valves and things sorted this weekend and drop it down to him next week :D
Worth noting that 1ZZ2335488 is the engine number you want or newer - its the first engine with the revised pistons.
Quote from: m1tch on June 25, 2020, 12:57Worth noting that 1ZZ2335488 is the engine number you want or newer - its the first engine with the revised pistons.
Is that the 1st revison like mine ? or the 2nd revison with the extra/larger holes ?
The last revision is so rare in an MR2 that it is non-existent for all practical purposes.
I, and others who have had a few of these apart, can attest to the fact that the revision that WAS done, had little or no effect. The oil holes still were too small and too few.
The biggest factor in gumming up is regular oil changes, preferably at least annually and at a lot less than 10,000 miles.
I am fixing my engine with these lol
(https://i.imgur.com/VG9N9WY.jpg)
Quote from: Carolyn on June 25, 2020, 13:35The last revision is so rare in an MR2 that it is non-existent for all practical purposes.
I, and others who have had a few of these apart, can attest to the fact that the revision that WAS done, had little or no effect. The oil holes still were too small and too few.
The biggest factor in gumming up is regular oil changes, preferably at least annually and at a lot less than 10,000 miles.
Agreed these longer service intervals i think are killing a lot of engines these days, that said service history on this car on paper at least is excellent and one of reasons i bought it, i will double check but from memory at least once a year at Toyota dealer with less than 10k between stamps in book iirc, makes you wonder if oil was always done and of what quality, i have the service sheets of what was done to back up stamps in book so might see if oils was done each time.
Lack of thrashing i think is another factor as lots of these cars just potter about so less pressure in the cylinders to help keep things flowing as they should :)
Quote from: m1tch on June 25, 2020, 14:32I am fixing my engine with these lol
(https://i.imgur.com/VG9N9WY.jpg)
Show off :D What are the oil ring holes like on those ?
Been looking back through the history folder that came with this car, its not been short on servicing or at least going into toyota for its stamp! there are service sheets for most of visits which have oil and filter on so probably lack of a good regular thrashing thats caused it to clog up!
Service history
Date - Mileage
28-3-06 @ 6487
26-3-07 @ 12114
13-6-08 @ 17411
13-7-09 @ 20600
6-4-10 @ 29518
4-4-11 @ 41473
13-3-12 @ 52316
5-6-13 @ 65811
8-5-14 @ 77773
30-4-15 @ 85291
25-4-16 @ 93241
23-6-17 @ 96310
27-10-18 @ 96736
OK little more progress as below.
Pistons modified and heading back to me next week
New Piston ring kit arrived
Gasket kit due anyday
Honing tool finally located (my brother had borrowed it for his vespa and i had forgotten)
This weekends jobs are get valves out of head to inspect/lap back in, clean and hone the bores and maybe tidy up a few other bits as well, also need to get a water pump ordered but will maybe just pop down local factors for that.
Todays progress was a good clean on outside of the head then valves stripped out, decoked and lapped back in, some didnt need much to get a nice visible band and others needed a bit more work but not bad all in all.
Few pics below.
Valve before lapping.
valvebeforelap.jpg
Valve after lapping
valveafterlap.jpg
Valve seats before and after, left side lapped in and right side still to do.
valveseat1.jpg
That's quite a difference on the seats. Again... Another picture that makes me want to rip my engine to bits
Indeed and was interesting how bad the exhaust valves and seats looked (pic is of an intake didnt get a good one of exh) but they didnt leak on petrol test, intake by comparison looked reasonable but they were leaking, hopefully now they will all seal.
Hoping to get head dropped off for skimming next few days then i can get it back and pop valves back in.
Yesterday i didnt do massive amount on it, honed out cylinders which went ok once i got back into the knack of speed of drill rotation and movement in and out the bores, got a decent enough 30-40degree crosshatch but will probably give them another quick hone before pistons go in.
Cleaned up the timing chain cover inside and out and looks lot better, need to get some sealant ordered any tips on good one for this ?
Quote from: thetyrant on June 29, 2020, 08:02Indeed and was interesting how bad the exhaust valves and seats looked (pic is of an intake didnt get a good one of exh) but they didnt leak on petrol test, intake by comparison looked reasonable but they were leaking, hopefully now they will all seal.
Hoping to get head dropped off for skimming next few days then i can get it back and pop valves back in.
Yesterday i didnt do massive amount on it, honed out cylinders which went ok once i got back into the knack of speed of drill rotation and movement in and out the bores, got a decent enough 30-40degree crosshatch but will probably give them another quick hone before pistons go in.
Cleaned up the timing chain cover inside and out and looks lot better, need to get some sealant ordered any tips on good one for this ?
Dirko Elring grey.
Lots arrived today :) Pistons back from modification (thanks C) and the gasket kit with head bolts...ive also got a new Toyota head gasket and few other bits coming from M1tch on here :D
Dropped the head off last night so should have that back by weekend so time to start putting things back together :D
Head collected last night freshly skimmed :) i just need to give it a good clean down and its ready to start building back up, guy that did the job said it was very good and didnt really need doing but until you start the machine you dont know, no matter im just happy its bob on now.
New Toyota head gasket and few others bits including Dirko sealant turned up yesterday so i have everything now to start the build, busy weekend ahead i think!
Pic of skimmed head below...
headskimmed.jpg
Busy morning cleaning out the bores and getting new rings on modded pistons, got everything sorted and pistons back in the engine and torqued up :D cleaned up sump face and block so that is ready to go back on but going to leave it until after head is on i think.
Time for some food now then im back at this afternoon to wash out head and get valves back in etc, might get it on the block tomorrow and i can start checking valve clearances, im hoping the little amount of lapping ive done will of got them into spec as was very slightly noisy before so couple must of been out of spec, i check a couple when i was doing stem seals but not all so will do that this time, may need some from bucket bank yet!
Pic below of pistons before and after mods...
Oil holes before..
pistonstock.jpg
Oil holes after...
pistonmodded.jpg
It's a lot easier to do the clearances while the head is on the bench. A couple of wood blocks, so the valves don't foul on the bench, put the cams in and rotate and measure to your heart's content. All without having to position pistons.
I can get buckets to you in fairly short order. I'd be surprised if lapping takes up the slop!
Quote from: Carolyn on July 4, 2020, 13:47It's a lot easier to do the clearances while the head is on the bench. A couple of wood blocks, so the valves don't foul on the bench, put the cams in and rotate and measure to your heart's content. All without having to position pistons.
I can get buckets to you in fairly short order. I'd be surprised if lapping takes up the slop!
OK thanks :), im a bit short of suitable bench space so probably do it once bolted on the block but without chains on and pistons all in mid stroke so plenty of room and easier to hold everything for me.
Got the Head all built up this afternoon and ready to fit so that is tomorrows job, along with checking valve clearances which if they turn out to be ok will continue bolting it all together :D
Head on and torqued down, had a small panic moment as came to use my new spline bit to start tightening head bolts and being a short version (goes into a 12mm to 1/2" drive adaptor) it wouldnt fit down in the space on the head for central bolts!, one i borrowed to remove head was a long spline bit so had no issues with that!, quick look in sockets and had a slimmer 12mm socket that did fit in space available thankfully, also lucky it was on first 2 bolts where access is tight and not part way through the torque sequence.
Cams in and valve clearances checked and they are all within spec thankfully so no need to change any buckets, will see how it sounds once running as im sure it was slightly louder topend wise compared to used engine ive fitted on cold starts, i guess clearances could be too tight on that one though which isnt good either.
Time to get cam chain on then i can torque down cam caps and get the chain cover on and sealed, hopefully by end of today engine will be all sealed up and ready to swap it back in car!
Thats it all buttoned up and ready to go in car :D been a busy but productive day and managed to find homes for all the bolts and brackets i had in my plastic tubs which is a bonus! Still need to pick up a new water pump and swap it with old one i refitted for now so i could get chain cover clamped down and sealed.
Fitted new inlet manifold gasket from the kit i got before refitting and it was long overdue! one that came off car was flush with manifold and looks to of been leaking so glad to get that changed as well as other seals in that area from the kit.
Now i just need to motivate myself to get car back in garage and start stripping it down ready to swap motors over... again!
Ok after a long day i got all bits swapped over onto the rebuilt engine then mated to gearbox and lifted into car, wound her over quite a bit with coils and injectors disconnected to get some oil circulating around before starting it, once i reconnected everything she fired right up and is running like a dream so far with no blue smoke! :D.....took an age to burp the cooling system but finally just got it burped then called it a day as im starving!
Tomorrow i just need to refit bumper and lights etc then i can get out and click a few miles on there to get it nicely run in :D
Quote from: thetyrant on July 11, 2020, 19:57Ok after a long day i got all bits swapped over onto the rebuilt engine then mated to gearbox and lifted into car, wound her over quite a bit with coils and injectors disconnected to get some oil circulating around before starting it, once i reconnected everything she fired right up and is running like a dream so far with no blue smoke! :D.....took an age to burp the cooling system but finally just got it burped then called it a day as im starving!
Tomorrow i just need to refit bumper and lights etc then i can get out and click a few miles on there to get it nicely run in :D
Great job! Well done, Ian.
Well done dude!
30 miles on it this morning round the back lanes, plenty of rev variation and engine braking to help bed the rings using most of the rev range but no hard loads and as little idling as possible, i must say that so far its a peach running nice/ quiet/smooth and power feels good although not given it a full throttle blast yet, will wait till ive a few more miles and i change oil again before caning it too much. No signs of blue smoke or any other colour either which is main thing :D
Burped coolant again when i got back to do spanner check and little more air came out so will keep an eye on that, temp was sitting around 90-92c most of time i was out once warmed up but was "using the revs" and its a hot day so probably about right.
Spanner check completed with nothing falling off or leaking, front tub and spare wheel refitted now just having a brew before heading out for some more miles :)
So Ian, Are You going to keep the engine stock, flog this 2, and get a 2zz to modify? Don't think you're going just stand still. Give us an insite to the future, but whatever keep up the good work and excellent updates.
Really enjoyed following your progress Ian.
I know where to go locally to help with my engine rebuild in the future ;)
Quote from: kwnelson on July 12, 2020, 15:11So Ian, Are You going to keep the engine stock, flog this 2, and get a 2zz to modify? Don't think you're going just stand still. Give us an insite to the future, but whatever keep up the good work and excellent updates.
Probably leave it stock for rest of year and just enjoy not having to worry about it so much!, i will try and get my stainless rear silencer fitted to make it sound a bit more sporty and hopefully its not too loud, it was pretty quiet on the turbo as you heard at Croft but could be very different without the snail in the gas stream. I would like to explore another turbo or maybe supercharger over winter but we will see :D
Quote from: shnazzle on July 12, 2020, 15:30Really enjoyed following your progress Ian.
I know where to go locally to help with my engine rebuild in the future ;)
Glad you enjoyed it fella :D im no expert but happy to assist if i can when you get to the rebuild :)
Had a good few hours in car today and now just over 110 miles and still running like a dream with no smoke :D will get oil changed in next couple of days and then get some more miles on ready for my next event which is the Javelin sprint at 3sisters in Wigan on 1st of August, should be nicely run in by then :)
Clicked up 189 miles now since rebuild so dropped the oil and changed filter, old oil was still nice and golden and pulled a magnet through it but nothing stuck on it so all good :D fresh same spec semi synth oil in and will start working the car a bit harder, rings will probably be as bedded as they are gona get but few more revs wont hurt :D
Just clocked up 500 miles since the rebuild and still running sweetly with no oil usage so far :), this weekend i will drop the oil/filter again and get the proper fully synth in there with a new filter then we are ready for track outing weekend after :D
Dropped the oil again today after further 385 miles since 1st change (575 total) same amount came out as went in and lovely golden colour with no debris in there :D, i had enough left of the semi synth for another change so used that again and will switch to fully synth next time.
Im on track next saturday for my 1st sprint of the year with Javelin at 3sisters in Wigan, i was going to put fully synth in for it but as its a short track and just a sprint so maybe 8-10 laps all day i think the semi will cope ok.
If that all goes ok will be starting to piece together a turbo setup :D
Just over 900 miles on it now including a brisk few hundred motorways miles to and from a short sprint event at 3sisters track, all good with oil still full and golden also no smoking :D
Time to switch to fully synthetic ready for next track outing which is probably Croft at end of September, this will be a harder on car than 3sisters which is only a short twisty 2nd/3rd gear circuit.
Quote from: thetyrant on August 7, 2020, 09:53Just over 900 miles on it now including a brisk few hundred motorways miles to and from a short sprint event at 3sisters track, all good with oil still full and golden also no smoking :D
Time to switch to fully synthetic ready for next track outing which is probably Croft at end of September, this will be a harder on car than 3sisters which is only a short twisty 2nd/3rd gear circuit.
I must say with my rebuilt engine so far, its really nice to know that the oil stays in the engine rather than being burnt!
Quote from: m1tch on August 7, 2020, 14:20I must say with my rebuilt engine so far, its really nice to know that the oil stays in the engine rather than being burnt!
Absolutely its a pleasant change than im not having to keep checking/topping it up :D roll on turbo power for both of us :)
Quote from: thetyrant on August 7, 2020, 14:41Quote from: m1tch on August 7, 2020, 14:20I must say with my rebuilt engine so far, its really nice to know that the oil stays in the engine rather than being burnt!
Absolutely its a pleasant change than im not having to keep checking/topping it up :D roll on turbo power for both of us :)
I am currently only losing oil from the Moroso sump lol
Will let you know when I add boost, although with the JUBU 3rd and 4th it already sounds like a whipple supercharger!
Quote from: m1tch on August 7, 2020, 15:55I am currently only losing oil from the Moroso sump lol
Will let you know when I add boost, although with the JUBU 3rd and 4th it already sounds like a whipple supercharger!
Standard problem it seems getting those Moroso sumps to seal which is bit annoying considering what they cost, hopefully its a simple fix for you as they latest version is meant to be a lot more oil tight than earlier ones!
Ok now at 1075 miles since rebuild and another 500 miles on since last oil change so ive just dropped the oil and removed filter, again oil still golden and same amount came out as went in so im calling this a success now :)
Refilled with my more usual Castrol Edge 5w30 Fully synth and a new filter so ready for rest of the years motoring i hope :)
All in all happy with where im at and total cost of the rebuild came to approx £300, this includes getting pistons modded, new rings, new top end gaskets, new head bolts, skimmed the head and also brand new clutch and water pump, + a fair few hours of my time of course but i wont bill myself for that :D
I still have the 76k mile used engine i bought from DS and it owes me £150 (partial refund) so if anyone wants it let me know, otherwise i will get it stripped down and look to rebuild it as a spare or to sell.
Let see how she goes on the more slippy fully synthetic oil, ive had bikes in past that used a little oil on fully synth but not on semi synth so will be interesting to see if this is the same, hopefully not and i can stop worrying about checking the oil so often with the nasty to read dipstick! :D
Ok thought i would strip down this spare engine ive got to see what it needs, got it all apart today and bearings and bores look good and serviceable, pistons in pretty good shape as well just oil rings gummed but other than that all good and fit for a rebuild :)
Will order some parts and get it all built back up, if anyone is looking for a freshend up 1zz get in touch :D
Pic of todays progress :D
2ndengine1.jpg
Sounds like a good job well done! Interested to hear how you get on with the full synth, I've always used it in engines designed for semi with no issues, so hope you find the same.
Quote from: AdamR28 on August 23, 2020, 14:05Sounds like a good job well done! Interested to hear how you get on with the full synth, I've always used it in engines designed for semi with no issues, so hope you find the same.
So far so good on the fully synth, runs even smoother quieter and no signs of oil smoke or usage at the moment :)
Over 2000 miles on the rebuilt unit in my car now (last 1000 on fully synth oil) including 2 sprint events on track, still no oil used :D
Need to get on with sorting this spare engine which has been on hold as DPD lost the package with pistons/rods on the return journey to me after Carolyn had modded the oil holes etc :( ive been holding out in hope they turn up in lost property but looks like they are gone for ever!
Carolyn very kindly supplied me a replacement set so i can now get on with the build, as promised donation to the club made for helping me out :D
Ive got the head skimmed and just need to remove valves to clean those up and lap in before fitting new stem seals, once thats done i can move onto bottom end but ive just got to get some new big end shells as originals were lost with DPD, once i have those its time fit/measure then clean up everything and get it bolted back together so i can get it out the garage and start on turbo setup on my car :D
Look forward to hearing about the progress!
J11 next year for you then Ian?
Quote from: AdamR28 on October 12, 2020, 09:42Look forward to hearing about the progress!
J11 next year for you then Ian?
J7 i would think if turbo goes to plan, adding turbo puts capacity up 40% with Javelin so will be in the over 2litre class/sub 250hp class which will be a challenge! but at least i can do more mods if i wish :)
Great read thanyou for a great effort! Is the 2nd 1zz engine still available? Mine is consuming oil like crazy :(
Quote from: FredyCro on December 13, 2020, 20:27Great read thanyou for a great effort! Is the 2nd 1zz engine still available? Mine is consuming oil like crazy :(
Ive not finished building up the 2nd engine but hoping to get it done when im off over christmas, reminds me i need to order some new head bolts as think thats last thing i need for the build :)
Great Post, I wish I had the ability to do the same. I have seen plenty of engines for sale but would rather see this level of care applied to any engine I fit in mine.
Just the thread I needed to read! Thanks! Hoping to build a 'fresh' motor for my incoming Crower cams. Might as well make the most of them.
Quick question on the head skim - I thought this wasn't advisable due to the chain and getting it all timed up, but saw you did it - I'm guessing it wasn't much of a skim but how far could one go in theory? Any extra compression helps 😁
Quote from: moca2cv on February 15, 2021, 00:45Just the thread I needed to read! Thanks! Hoping to build a 'fresh' motor for my incoming Crower cams. Might as well make the most of them.
Quick question on the head skim - I thought this wasn't advisable due to the chain and getting it all timed up, but saw you did it - I'm guessing it wasn't much of a skim but how far could one go in theory? Any extra compression helps 😁
Skimming head isnt an issue as chain tensioner has plenty of scope for a minimal drop in head position due to skim, we only just kissed it with the skimming to clean up face and i think 2-3 thou was all he took off thickness so practically nothing :D
Hopefully weather is going to warm up a bit now then i can get back in garage and finish assembly on this 2nd engine so someone else can enjoy a non-burning motor :D
Just dropped the oil again in prep for trackday next week, starting to look a bit darker but has done approx 3000 since last change and just over 4000 since rebuild, same amount came out as went in so all good :D