Picked up a set in the last group buy, I've dithered over them ever since.
Use car for: Driving round Warwickshire, occasionally Wales and Scotland, has never seen a track, might at some point but certainly not regularly.
Favourite thing about car: Agility, fluidity and poise when wrestled down a back road, civility and compliance.
My fear: I'm going to wreck this with coilovers.
I've devoured just about every post on the forum even vaguely relating to the topic and sure they're apparently remarkably compliant... for coilovers, but with springs rates that high they're inevitably going to be a lot less civilised.
Equally there are days where I'd love the extra precision and control...
Then I remember that actually that control will be reduced in the world in which I actually drive my car; rural, muddy, gnarly, HS2 trashed Warwickshire etc etc...
I have flip flopped between "just whack them on" and "you'll wreck your car" on a pretty much monthly and sometimes daily basis, but I think I'm finally settling on don't put them on.
Probably worth mentioning I've done this before with a Renaultsport Clio 172 Cup - put some Bilstein B14 coilovers on it and whilst it was properly awesome in the right setting, sure enough when asked to tackle genuine Welsh Gnar or anything with really "interesting" topography it did become clear I'd taken things a step backwards.
In truth I don't really know what I'm hoping to gain with this post - I've read everyone's opinions on the matter to death already, I've got my own hard won experience of wrecking things with coilovers, and I think I'm in the "it's pretty much perfect out of the factory" camp.
I guess to spread to pain of my head scratching out a bit!
So here's my request for everyone's two pence:
I love the way my car rides and handles as it is, should I really go down the route of refreshing all the bushes and one of the less extreme suspension options rather than putting coilovers on it, and pass these on to someone who will actually take them to a racetrack occasionally, and enjoy them very much, for all the reasons I will curse them as my wheels are flung clear of the tarmac yet again?
A suspension refresh by all means.
Coilovers, nah, track use only. On our roads you need compliance, not defiance.
You'd regret it as soon as it's done.
Plus point, you should have no trouble selling them, there's always someone looking for them, each to their own I guess.
Thank you, the more of this I hear the better I will feel!
I agree for our roads a suspension refresh maybe with added lowering springs eibach / teins.
You need a perfectly flat roads for me to enjoy coilovers, I must admit I like the stance that can be achieved by coilovers but I guess you have to choose between looks vs comfort
Fresh shocks, lowering springs, polybushes, good alignment. Perfect set up for UK roads 👍🏻
My two-pennneth:
KYB shocks and new OEM springs all round.
The way to go for the real world of our rubbish roads.
I have meisters on and am currently getting all the bits together to go back to kybs with tein lowering springs at some stage.
This will give me a drop as keeping at standard height is not an option for me for aesthetic reasons if nothing else.
I know lowering springs will take up the first bit of compliance of the shocks but that is something I am prepared to give up.
The meisters are of course great on a smooth road but I like the B roads/ off road tracks lol and find them less than helpful/scary on a bouncy and twisty road.
If the meisters have never been fitted then it will be very easy to sell them I am sure.
The key to this is being honest about what you want from the car. The fact that you havent fitted them probably answers your question. If you havent refreshed your suspension since the car was new, then that will probably be all you want to get the car where you want it to be (either with loweing or standard springs).
I have them fitted and they are fine for the road IMO, they are firm but have very good damping so dont rattle your filling out.
Mine is fully braced, and has a 6 point roll cage so will be stiffer still. I bet without these the meisters on there own would be fantastic.
I'd swap mine for a refresh with Teins tomorrow if I could be bothered, the Meisters are great at the money but with everything else I've done to ruin my car I think I'd be more comfortable with a bit more compliance in the suspension.
Similar to Simon though, I prefer the aesthetics of the lowered ride.
If you do fit them, judging by what you've said you'll hate them for at least 500 miles.
I had them all-round. I saw an ad' for a set of new Koni's. THEY'RE what I want, I thought. My partner also has a 2 & likes firm suspension...so she'd get the Meister.
I put the Koni on the rear some time ago, 'life' got in the way of changing the fronts. And the Meister on the front seem fine now.
There are a couple of Americans who contribute on here & have dabbled with different shock-makes with a few cars & significant mileages. One of them suggested to me to put the 5kg fronts on the rears, & fit 3kg on the front.
The Koni on the rear haven't been of significant benefit, particularly into road holes, - seems crashy.
I've had coilovers on all 3 of my MR2s. They've all been meister R.
I was firmly in the coilovers are better camp now I think I've gone the other way. They're certainly better on my heavier V6 than a stock roadster although the V6 has polybushes and refurbed wishbones.
If in doubt go with stock or koni inserts which I would like to try.
Quote from: Gaz mr-s on November 30, 2020, 14:23If you do fit them, judging by what you've said you'll hate them for at least 500 miles.
I had them all-round. I saw an ad' for a set of new Koni's. THEY'RE what I want, I thought. My partner also has a 2 & likes firm suspension...so she'd get the Meister.
I put the Koni on the rear some time ago, 'life' got in the way of changing the fronts. And the Meister on the front seem fine now.
There are a couple of Americans who contribute on here & have dabbled with different shock-makes with a few cars & significant mileages. One of them suggested to me to put the 5kg fronts on the rears, & fit 3kg on the front.
The Koni on the rear haven't been of significant benefit, particularly into road holes, - seems crashy.
Am I reading this correctly?
You have a completely different make of shocks and springs front to rear?
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 30, 2020, 14:34Am I reading this correctly?
You have a completely different make of shocks and springs front to rear?
At the moment, - not staying that way. ;-)
Quote from: 1979scotte on November 30, 2020, 14:34Am I reading this correctly?
You have a completely different make of shocks and springs front to rear?
My jaw was lowered. Don´t like the stance one bit. Hope he corrects it soon ;-)
Read 3 and 5 kg mentioned for road too. Imo underlying the usefulness of a suspension reference table as this is more than TRD ráce spring rate.
Considering the ride hight there is more to it; suspension geometry. The calculation links shared by Adam28 illustrated that TRD knew a thing or two with their Sportivo kit.
I like my Meisters. I don't drive my MR2 all that often so when I do it's to enjoy the experience. I wouldn't want this suspension for the school run but for occasional fun drives it makes it more of an event.
It feels good to me and certainly not crashy. Particularly after the ware-in period and with good bracing. Whether it has actually improved performance with regard to cornering speeds etc I have no idea and don't really care.
KYB with stock springs work well, but lowering springs are stiffer than stock and the KYB damping doesn't match up very well. We ran Tein springs with KYB and switched to Koni inserts which work much better.
The biggest issue with lowering springs is ground clearance, which can be a big issue depending on where you drive.
The most comfortable setup (in my opinion only) is stock springs and Koni inserts.
TL:DR: Flog the Meister, fit some Koni Sports.
Long answer...
Spring rates aren't the whole part of the puzzle - damping plays a huge part too.
The super long answer involves a lot of maths and graphs and stuff, the shortish answer is that a car with hard springs and nice digressive compression damping can 'ride' better than a car with soft springs and OE type damping curves. BUT it has to be set up right.
Some background: Compression damping slows the damper movement when the wheel is going up into the arch, when the damper is getting shorter. Compression damping also 'props up' the car on transitions when you load that side of the car up (eg. the left dampers are in low speed compression when you turn the car into a right hand bend).
Rebound damping is what slows the wheel down as it extends away from the car - either dropping into a pothole, rolling dip, or the right hand side of that car as you're turning it into the right hand corner.
Damping can be split into low and high speed - approximately 0"-3" and 3"-10" of wheel movement per second respectively.
Important note: The dampers only affect things when the car is in a transition - when the wheels are (trying to!) moving up and down. The springs are acting all the time, just they provide more extension force when they have had more compression force added to them.
What I find with the OE setup is that it has soft springs, relatively nice low speed compression and rebound damping, but way too much high speed compression, and not enough high speed rebound.
As you can imagine from the above, low speed compression and rebound damping are what you 'feel' immediately after adding an input - steering, braking - especially on smooth roads.
High speed compression is when you hit a 'sharp' bump, and the car crashes and bangs and feels horrible. The OE damper, at 10" per second, might produce 100kg of instantaneous force at this point. You feel that because the amount of load it transfers to the car is massively higher than the spring rate (low single figures of kg/mm). As soon as the damper starts to move, the load drops off, but if the damper is basic (not very sensitive) it will take a little while for the circuits to open up. This is when a higher quality damper gives you a benefit - you can have less high speed damping so it tackles bumps better, this high speed damping drops off more quickly when you do clatter into said obstacle, and they can be built to give more low speed damping so the car feels more taught to the driver. This is called digressive damping. Result? A better ride AND better feel.
Rebound helps keep the car settled on transitions and when coming out of larger bumps. If the rebound damping is higher, the car will roll over more slowly as you turn into a corner (but it won't affect the AMOUNT of body roll), making it feel more controlled. If you hit a big compression on the road, the spring is then fully compressed and has a lot of energy ready to recoil - the damper has to resist this. I find the OE dampers too soft in high speed rebound, if you really hustle the car it feels uncontrolled.
The Meister dampers I've used and fitted have been fine, and they do ride pretty ok, but they use the springs to prop up the car rather than proper damping curves. The curves are the same as OE - flat lines, basically. (The GT1s have better curves, but at the 'slack' end of the range they are regressive rather than digressive, which is generally not desirable, so you have to wind them right up to get them to work properly.)
So, in all - I agree with the above. Stock components are great, and if you want a bit of extra body control and less crashy-ness, fit some Koni Sports.
"Then I remember that actually that control will be reduced in the world in which I actually drive my car; rural, muddy, gnarly, HS2 trashed Warwickshire etc etc..."
Don't fit them. Sell them and fix up your current setup.
@Adam28 What you describe about high speed damping reflects the most striking difference with the Sportivo shocks: potholes, ridges at all are soaked up a lót smoother belying the springs being stiffer.
So a firmer, more stable ride combined with increased comfort.
Must be noted though that although the spring rate given for the Sportivo springs is not the whole story as unlike the OEM ones they are somewhat progressively wound.
Although that undoubtly helps the comfort, it does not resist the initial load transfer following of turning the wheels. With linear springs that is relatively less.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts, and largely reinforcing the conclusion I'd come to - I was hoping for a friendly echo chamber!
Adam that's the kind of in depth break down I'd have paid someone to give me!
Sounds as though I should be looking for a set of KYBs and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.
I did entertain pipe dreams of a v6, at which point the coilovers would make perfect sense...
Meanwhile, back out here in the real world we're all so keen on I should probably flogging them shamelessly!
Quote from: Petrus on November 30, 2020, 17:36@Adam28 What you describe about high speed damping reflects the most striking difference with the Sportivo shocks: potholes, ridges at all are soaked up a lót smoother belying the springs being stiffer.
So a firmer, more stable ride combined with increased comfort.
Exactly! A shiny, blingy set of shocks made by some random CNC factory in China, or some boring looking, dull painted ones from a suspension specialist made in Europe, Japan, etc? No contest.
As for the condition, the closest they've been to a vehicle is the passenger seat of mine, and they have been out of the box a few times for me to oggle/ponder furiously over but are otherwise pristine!
Quote from: R.Sointment on November 30, 2020, 17:41Thanks everyone for your thoughts, and largely reinforcing the conclusion I'd come to - I was hoping for a friendly echo chamber!
Adam that's the kind of in depth break down I'd have paid someone to give me!
Sounds as though I should be looking for a set of KYBs and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.
I did entertain pipe dreams of a v6, at which point the coilovers would make perfect sense...
Meanwhile, back out here in the real world we're all so keen on I should probably flogging them shamelessly!
Put the V6 out of your mind prices of boxsters make V6 swaps economically farcical.
Quote from: R.Sointment on November 30, 2020, 17:41and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.
Not much of that around.
The available options are 30 - 40 lower and firmer to match.
The Eibach Pro-Kit springs were the ones sold under the TTE monniker I think. From what I can find they are the softest lowering springs availeble.
Now, dare I say as it is a much slagged NoNo, there is also the option of cutting down OEM springs ever so slightly. As Carolyn pointed out that makes them automatically a bit stiffer as well. It máy be what you want.
Quote from: Petrus on November 30, 2020, 18:11Quote from: R.Sointment on November 30, 2020, 17:41and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.
Not much of that around.
The available options are 30 - 40 lower and firmer to match.
The Eibach Pro-Kit springs were the ones sold under the TTE monniker I think. From what I can find they are the softest lowering springs availeble.
Now, dare I say as it is a much slagged NoNo, there is also the option of cutting down OEM springs ever so slightly. As Carolyn pointed out that makes them automatically a bit stiffer as well. It máy be what you want.
Come to think of it, I did take 1/2 coil off my fronts. Everyone who's driven my car recently has remarked on how nicely it drives.
Quote from: Carolyn on November 30, 2020, 18:18Come to think of it, I did take 1/2 coil off my fronts. Everyone who's driven my car recently has remarked on how nicely it drives.
Adding just a wee bit of rake too; win-win.
While waiting for enlightenment about the subject, cut off 1/1 front and just over 1/2 rear of mine to compensate for added lightness ánd a bit of rake.
Okay, so KYBs and stock springs with half a coil out sounds ideal!
Quote from: R.Sointment on November 30, 2020, 22:05Okay, so KYBs and stock springs with half a coil out sounds ideal!
Maybe a bit more even as new springs will raíse your rear and 1/2 off at the front is most likely the same as 15 years old ones.
I´d measure them when they are off.
Keep in mind that the new ones will be a bit stiffer.
Think about the ride hight you´d like.
Then decide.
A whisker under stock probably. I'm not hugely bothered aesthetically, I can't see the arch gap from the driver's seat!
Quote from: R.Sointment on December 1, 2020, 00:17A whisker under stock probably. I'm not hugely bothered aesthetically, I can't see the arch gap from the driver's seat!
True. You will notice it though. Same thing some rake.
Coilovers first become a fad and then they get the boot on many car forums for the same reasons and what they all have in common is the cheap budget Taiwanese coilovers. People usually equate stiffness with better handling and its not the case at all. I have mentioned this before and its not coilovers, its the amount you are willing to spend for a properly researched set which is firmer than OEM but soft in comparison. There are only two companies that sell street coilovers that are worth your consideration. Designing a coilover system is not something you throw together, there is a lot more sophistication that goes into it that requires them to be designed and tested on the car with some like KW that use a shaker rig.
These systems cost double that of a cheap kit but there is no equal or diminishing returns. Its either right or wrong.
Quote from: Dev on December 1, 2020, 17:54These systems cost double that of a cheap kit but there is no equal or diminishing returns. Its either right or wrong.
There is also budget.
Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 17:57Quote from: Dev on December 1, 2020, 17:54These systems cost double that of a cheap kit but there is no equal or diminishing returns. Its either right or wrong.
There is also budget.
Except for the Koni inserts being the exception only because it is right but still not great. There are a lot of things that are advertised as budget options but it doesn't mean you should buy it because they can make things worse.
Marketing has a way of convince others that one product is a better value because its almost the same but cheaper. You get fake reviewers or some that have no bases of comparison that think stiff is better and recommend them to others until one day someone complains and then everyone else realizes maybe this was not a good idea.
Sometimes the product that is bench mark of comparison is the better value.
Not really all that simple is it?
It's not yes/no.
The BC BR-RA series are cheap as chips in the coilovers market but they're still much used on track in serious fashion. Same for MeisterR. In certain situations they can meet the needs of the buyer perfectly well.
They don't offer the flexibility and compliance of "better" coilovers but then you're not paying for flexibility and compliance.
It was my opinion that Adam should leave the coilovers off and stick to stock or stock-like, based on my experience with mine as a daily over uneven roads. But, it's not fact. Others find the BCs and MeisterRs perfectly fine over the roads I drive.
Need to make sure we don't confuse opinion with fact.
So, in my opinion; BC BR-RA and MeisterR CRD+ are absolutely fantastic for the money but simply do not offer the most mechanical grip on bumpy b-roads of the UK.
Whether its just my driving or whether there's science to my observations I have no clue.
Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 20:19Not really all that simple is it?
Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.
Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 20:40Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 20:19Not really all that simple is it?
Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.
Spending ceiling what is such a thing?
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 1, 2020, 20:41Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 20:40Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 20:19Not really all that simple is it?
Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.
Spending ceiling what is such a thing?
Ceiling on the spending, really.... Well, tant pis.
Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 20:48Quote from: 1979scotte on December 1, 2020, 20:41Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 20:40Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 20:19Not really all that simple is it?
Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.
Spending ceiling what is such a thing?
Ceiling on the spending, really.... Well, tant pis.
Ceiling=universe :)
Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 21:49Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 20:48Quote from: 1979scotte on December 1, 2020, 20:41Quote from: Petrus on December 1, 2020, 20:40Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 20:19Not really all that simple is it?
Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.
Spending ceiling what is such a thing?
Ceiling on the spending, really.... Well, tant pis.
Ceiling=universe :)
Cars are cheap buy a newfie now that's expensive.
Quote from: shnazzle on December 1, 2020, 20:19Not really all that simple is it?
It's not yes/no.
The BC BR-RA series are cheap as chips in the coilovers market but they're still much used on track in serious fashion. Same for MeisterR. In certain situations they can meet the needs of the buyer perfectly well.
They don't offer the flexibility and compliance of "better" coilovers but then you're not paying for flexibility and compliance.
It was my opinion that Adam should leave the coilovers off and stick to stock or stock-like, based on my experience with mine as a daily over uneven roads. But, it's not fact. Others find the BCs and MeisterRs perfectly fine over the roads I drive.
Need to make sure we don't confuse opinion with fact.
So, in my opinion; BC BR-RA and MeisterR CRD+ are absolutely fantastic for the money but simply do not offer the most mechanical grip on bumpy b-roads of the UK.
Whether its just my driving or whether there's science to my observations I have no clue.
Very well put
Suspension as always been referred to as "the black art" in the motorbike world, the correct set up of a sports car or bike for fast, compliant, driving or riding is a specialist job, the problem is, there are so many opinions out there by folks who know basically fook all but have a good google search history and, their piloting skills couldn't tell the difference between a good and poor set up, lets face it, most wont bother checking the tyre pressures so what do that tell you
Standard suspension, damper inserts, coilovers, all have a place, you pays your money and make your choice, hopefully its the right one for you
Rob
Quote from: Zxrob on December 1, 2020, 22:22Suspension as always been referred to as "the black art" in the motorbike world, the correct set up of a sports car or bike for fast, compliant, driving or riding is a specialist job, the problem is, there are so many opinions out there by folks who know basically fook all but have a good google search history and, their piloting skills couldn't tell the difference between a good and poor set up, lets face it, most wont bother checking the tyre pressures so what do that tell you
So funny because its true.
The thing is, suspension isn't black art. Its maths and physics. Yes, there is a human element to the system, hence the range of preference, but there is a theoretical optimum for every car and that can be calculated.
I wrote a pretty simple spreadsheet when speccing some Penske 3 ways for my kit car, which calculated ideal spring rates and damper curves. The specialist I bought the dampers from did the same. The numbers agreed and the car drives brilliantly. Its not that hard...
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 1, 2020, 21:51Ceiling=universe :)
a maximum limit; vertical boundary... and perception is reality.
Good point about the tyres and tyre pressure btw. It´s where it all is limited; thé contact with the road.
Ah, but AdamR28, math, crunching numbers is a black art for most. Even non numbers crunching, allignment of the car is none to easy to get done correctly.
In this age of superficial browsing and instant gratification, doing the legwork, putting in some concentrated éffort is no longer the norm. ´Nespresso.´ Need I say more?
Anyway,
@R.Sointment, how are you doing? ;D
Quote from: Petrus on December 2, 2020, 08:14Ah, but AdamR28, math, crunching numbers is a black art for most. Even non numbers crunching, allignment of the car is none to easy to get done correctly.
In this age of superficial browsing and instant gratification, doing the legwork, putting in some concentrated éffort is no longer the norm. ´Nespresso.´ Need I say more?
I agree - but - my beef (issue) is that its the specialists telling us it's black art, and then charging through the nose for it.
Car alignment is easy if you can hold the right end of a spanner and give half a sh1t about attention to detail. Its just people have been put off by 'specialists' telling us it's impossible and black magic and you'd better leave it to them.
I actually run a small side company which specialises in alignment and suspension setup (and driver tuition). I encourage my customers to stick around while I'm working on their cars, and explain what's happening as I go. Nearly everyone then has the confidence to take their car away, make changes themselves in the future, and correlate those to what they feel in the car - because they understand, rather than just being told they can't.
But yes, the age of instant gratification... it's a big part of what's wrong with world right now.
Quote from: AdamR28 on December 2, 2020, 12:46I agree - but - my beef (issue) is that its the specialists telling us it's black art, and then charging through the nose for it.
Car alignment is easy if you can hold the right end of a spanner and give half a sh1t about attention to detail. Its just people have been put off by 'specialists' telling us it's impossible and black magic and you'd better leave it to them.
Adam
You obviously know your stuff, reading you posts and comments proves that, attention to detail and problem solving as you will know is a must, what I was trying to get over is that the majority will not be in your position and probably not want to put the effort in to get there and be relying on stuff they read or hear about, its an old saying but a very true one "a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous"
Rob
I getcha - and in that case, I guess, choose someone to consult who does know their stuff and charges a fair price :D
Which also leads to 'a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous'... as that's often what you get on forums.. and 'you get what you pay for'.
Quote from: AdamR28 on December 2, 2020, 07:16Quote from: Zxrob on December 1, 2020, 22:22Suspension as always been referred to as "the black art" in the motorbike world, the correct set up of a sports car or bike for fast, compliant, driving or riding is a specialist job, the problem is, there are so many opinions out there by folks who know basically fook all but have a good google search history and, their piloting skills couldn't tell the difference between a good and poor set up, lets face it, most wont bother checking the tyre pressures so what do that tell you
So funny because its true.
The thing is, suspension isn't black art. Its maths and physics. Yes, there is a human element to the system, hence the range of preference, but there is a theoretical optimum for every car and that can be calculated.
I wrote a pretty simple spreadsheet when speccing some Penske 3 ways for my kit car, which calculated ideal spring rates and damper curves. The specialist I bought the dampers from did the same. The numbers agreed and the car drives brilliantly. Its not that hard...
I wholeheartedly agree. What most people do not realize is that it seems like a black art because so many with Taiwanese coilovers believe they are roughly the same as other systems. Without any bases of comparison they lump in all coilovers as being equal when it comes to comfort and performance.
Any company like BR that allows you to change spring rates dramatically without changing the damping curves in a coilover system needs to be avoided. They convince their buyers that their system has a lot of flexibility with changing spring rates to suit bad roads when they complain about it. The BR coilovers are so bad that you will actually lose traction and it can be unpredictable even for a track application with people fighting with the rest of their suspension settings to get them to work. This isn't just for our car its a problem with the industry as a whole.
What they don't also realize is that black art math has already been done by real suspension experts from the USA, Europe and Japan where they make an actual quality product that has been tested specifically for that car. Bottom line is to buy quality dampers made for the car and then stuff like alignment and other things are easily tuned because they will work in harmony.
I have seen too many people fighting with their suspension until they realized the problem is with the dampers.
RaceCar.jpg
Thoroughly swamped! All the detail I could ask for which is great.
All this has solidly confirmed I don't want them on my car, I'll try and sell them eventually, if I ever reach the post count to get into the parts for sale section...
... which as a professional lurker is likely to be a while! 😂
And maybe at some point even get round to actually getting the work done!
Expect an update any time within the next decade or so 👍🏻
Quote from: R.Sointment on December 14, 2020, 12:36Thoroughly swamped! All the detail I could ask for which is great.
All this has solidly confirmed I don't want them on my car, I'll try and sell them eventually, if I ever reach the post count to get into the parts for sale section...
... which as a professional lurker is likely to be a while! 😂
And maybe at some point even get round to actually getting the work done!
Expect an update any time within the next decade or so 👍🏻
You are only 4 posts away from the sales section so hopefully by spring you will have enough posts (note I didnt say which spring!).
What I take from all the posts above is that the move to coilovers is one you should do when you are sure they are what you want for your car and driving style/plans and not as an alternative for a cheaper suspension refresh than replacing everything with oem.
The lowering springs vs standard springs is a whole different debate but not as contentious possibly as most manufacturers do offer lowering springs as an option which validates them a little. If you dont want the look of lowering springs then you are probably safest with the standard ones.
A suspension refresh is something that every 2 needs though if it hasnt been done!
Let us know how you get on.
Quote from: Topdownman on December 14, 2020, 13:53Quote from: R.Sointment on December 14, 2020, 12:36Thoroughly swamped! All the detail I could ask for which is great.
All this has solidly confirmed I don't want them on my car, I'll try and sell them eventually, if I ever reach the post count to get into the parts for sale section...
... which as a professional lurker is likely to be a while! 😂
And maybe at some point even get round to actually getting the work done!
Expect an update any time within the next decade or so 👍🏻
You are only 4 posts away from the sales section so hopefully by spring you will have enough posts (note I didnt say which spring!).
What I take from all the posts above is that the move to coilovers is one you should do when you are sure they are what you want for your car and driving style/plans and not as an alternative for a cheaper suspension refresh than replacing everything with oem.
The lowering springs vs standard springs is a whole different debate but not as contentious possibly as most manufacturers do offer lowering springs as an option which validates them a little. If you dont want the look of lowering springs then you are probably safest with the standard ones.
A suspension refresh is something that every 2 needs though if it hasnt been done!
Let us know how you get on.
I can only speak for what I have written but I have asserted that we should not lump in all coilovers in the same basket. It is the cheap Taiwanese coiloves that give other coilovers choices a bad name particularly ones that are specifically made for the track.
There are also those that lump in race/track coilovers which are monotube design in the mix which do not make for a good street ride for obvious reasons that they are way too stiff.
If you look at the street coilovers options for this car they are not too different to the OEM being that they are twin tube designed which are far more durable and were made to be comfortable for a street driven application on real roads. They will be firmer then OEM obviously but the way they dampen the road will be like they are soaking up the bumps and stabilizing the car better than OEM. They also inspire confidence making the drive that much more enjoyable.
It might seem expensive but if you are looking for real value nothing beats a proper street coilover from the manufactures that have actual experience in knowing what the customer will be satisfied with. Ones like mine had three independent from each other testers during its development that rate them for street comfort before they are sold.
Not disagreeing with any of the arguments you provide persé Dev.
As several have observed on several threads, the price of a set ot really good coil overs has also has anóther perspective; the value of the MR2 Spyder and that of say a Boxster.
In the UK especially, the ZZW30 is particularly cheap to buy; on average between a third to half of here in Spain per example. Just look at what Carolyn sold her well sorted Eaton compressor car for! That does change choices even though the argument persé is the same.
Quote from: Petrus on December 14, 2020, 18:31Not disagreeing with any of the arguments you provide persé Dev.
As several have observed on several threads, the price of a set ot really good coil overs has also has anóther perspective; the value of the MR2 Spyder and that of say a Boxster.
In the UK especially, the ZZW30 is particularly cheap to buy; on average between a third to half of here in Spain per example. Just look at what Carolyn sold her well sorted Eaton compressor car for! That does change choices even though the argument persé is the same.
Spain is silly expensive for secondhand cars.
Things we would scrap here are still worth 1000 euro.
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 14, 2020, 19:03Spain is silly expensive for secondhand cars.
Things we would scrap here are still worth 1000 euro.
Silly is basically caused by a price cartel by the breakers:
The average age of the car on Spanish roads is well over 13 years so the breakers a more used source than OEM.
In general used parts from the breakers are half the new price.
Thus the bottom value of an old car is in the parts.
This automatically works upwards.
Quote from: Petrus on December 14, 2020, 18:31Not disagreeing with any of the arguments you provide persé Dev.
As several have observed on several threads, the price of a set ot really good coil overs has also has anóther perspective; the value of the MR2 Spyder and that of say a Boxster.
In the UK especially, the ZZW30 is particularly cheap to buy; on average between a third to half of here in Spain per example. Just look at what Carolyn sold her well sorted Eaton compressor car for! That does change choices even though the argument persé is the same.
I do not see spending $2k on a proper set of street coilovers that have been researched for the road as an expensive option when the alternatives is an incorrect budget option that is worse than OEM. There is no in between in this regard and therefore no compromises. It would be nice if these Taiwanese companies would copy a proper street coilover but it seems like to me they have a number of tubes to choose from which they apply to many other applications by welding the mounts for each car and compromising the valving.
In regards to this car it is cheap to buy now but it's certainly not a cheap car. It requires high quality parts and tires. Nothing has changed just because the car is old, only the owners that want to cheap out and make it worse in a downwards spiral. I have seen many that do and it is depressing seeing these cars falling apart but at the same time I see many restorations where the owner is spending a good amount of money to keep this car timeless in their custodianship.
The only real budget option is the Koni inserts. They fall way short because they have to have less shock oil than the OEM making them limited in many respects of not being a great option for the money.
It would be better to wait and save up for great set of dampers.
A good set of dampers for this car is the single best modification over all modifications. Sure power is good also but it gets old once you get use to it. With proper suspension the fun to drive factor is many folds better once the bottle neck of the OEM suspension is removed. This is where the true potentials can be exploited and the car is transformed to one that you only find in sports cars costing many times this one. For the price it is excellent value with great returns.
Ideal and real at odds Dev.
A bit like what Johann Wolfgang von Goethe wrote about love and marriage ;D
@Dev So what do you consider to be the quality options?
We know bc and Meister R they're both cheap.
Tein are dearer.
KW make some I believe which are quite pricey.
Who else currently makes after market suspension for our cars?
Quote from: 1979scotte on December 14, 2020, 21:41@Dev
So what do you consider to be the quality options?
We know bc and Meister R they're both cheap.
Tein are dearer.
KW make some I believe which are quite pricey.
Who else currently makes after market suspension for our cars?
At one time there was four properly researched street coilovers available.
1. JIC Magic
2. Tein Super Street
3. Cusco zero two
4. KW varient 3
Now we have
1. KW varient 3
2. Cusco Zero two new version. It appears they have revamped to make them better
3. Fortune. Im a little mixed about this set being mono tube design but apparently they got the valving right and people say they are comfortable for the street. They also have issues with camber adjustment being restricted compared to others.
The KWs have the advantage of being double adjustable but because of some European restrictions they do not come with pillow mounts for the fronts. No worries as you can get aftermarket pillow mounts with camber adjustments from Cusco and they work great together.
The Cusco Zero two new version have the pillow mounts and have been updated to be better. Its quiet interesting that they are only five position adjustable which is true to actual settings. All of those cheap coilovers with 22 or 35 points of adjustment is a gimmick. Generally speaking the correct adjustment for these cheaper street coilovers like the Teins are usually within three if the damper is tuned for the car. The Tein is a great set but their marketing is not so good.
I had a chat with Boris a few days ago and he reported that he is liking his Cusco Zero 2. If I was in the market today I would probably go for the KWs for their double adjustability and the research that went into them. There is a tuner that I respect that deals primarily with our cars and has commented on how comfortable KWs are compared to everything else.
I would like to provide a little more information.
You cant do much if the design of the damper is flawed from its foundation even if you change the valving. As I mentioned before cartridge options are not ideal because they will have less shock oil since they have to fit in the limited space of the body. One of the many reasons why the Taiwanese options are not good is primarily because they are cartridge struts. This is why OEM KYB is a better strut although Koni cartages are not bad but still not ideal.
Normally I would like to post an independent source for information but I believe these two articles by Tein are correct. If I was a manufacture I would also point out the differences between my product and my competitors which is easy to understand.
https://www.tein.com/classroom/cartridge/index.html
To summarize shock oil volume is key to a street coilovers comfort and its performance. When you spend more you get both and when you spend less you get choppy performance. Cheap coilovers might feel good because its stiff but stiff does not make a car handle better and in many cases it can handle worse.
https://www.tein.co.jp/e/special/ni_toryu/
Here we see that stroke is important which is the advantage of a twin tube design in regards to comfort. The manufactures I mentioned use twin tube overwhelmingly for its street applications because they are durable for real roads like the OEM. They might not have the best shock dynos because its a trade off for longevity which is fine because we are not on a race track trying to win trophies.
What I often find are those that race will look at features that make a race coilover not understanding that the street is a completely different animal which requires an entirely different approach.
I keep balancing the "investment in mr2 vs price of a Boxster" equation in my head.
Whilst it probably is a bit more civilised, and does have that lovely flat six, it's also a chunk heavier and if you're going to abuse and or modify it you're quickly going to run into the territory of "why not buy marginally more expensive car x in the first place".
I don't know what a rebuild of one of those lovely engines runs to, but I bet it hurts when you have find out unexpectedly.
I guess this is the nature of the habit ultimately - I always tell people it would be cheaper to have a crack habit, just before their eyes glaze over.
A really well sorted mr2 with a 6 cylinder engine note, not to mention characteristics, is inherently more appealing than anything short of one of the fancier, much newer Boxsters (and with their endlessly long gear ratios and even greater size and heft probably still not).
If I think of it as two thirds of an Exige for a fraction of the price, a modern convertible Stratos after a few beers and kebabs, or just the perfect recipe for a sports car which I'm not sure I'd ever tire of it starts to look a bit like reasonable investment....
Back to suspension, if I could stretch to a set of KWs it'd be a no brainer. Unfortunately and for the foreseeable future - no chance.
I am ever so ever so slowly creeping my way up to the post count for entry into the for sale section - not only am I a seasoned forum lurker, but I wouldn't want to look like some profiteering capitalist scumbag now, would I.
So watch that space, coilovers for sale... one day 😂 might have to get the earth round the sun a few more times first.
If you go for a V6 you must have some sort of height adjustable suspension stock suspension grounds out on a spirited drive.
I'm pretty confident I should have bought a boxster S.
With hindsight I should of known I wouldn't of been happy with a 200bhp motor and going forced induction was going to be trouble.
I suppose I paint a bleak picture for people thinking about mods and swaps. I feel that everyone shouts really loudly when it's all going well and then quietly disappears off the face of the planet when something goes wrong.
Quote from: R.Sointment on January 4, 2021, 10:56I keep balancing the "investment in mr2 vs price of a Boxster" equation in my head.
Whilst it probably is a bit more civilised, and does have that lovely flat six, it's also a chunk heavier and if you're going to abuse and or modify it you're quickly going to run into the territory of "why not buy marginally more expensive car x in the first place".
I don't know what a rebuild of one of those lovely engines runs to, but I bet it hurts when you have find out unexpectedly.
I guess this is the nature of the habit ultimately - I always tell people it would be cheaper to have a crack habit, just before their eyes glaze over.
A really well sorted mr2 with a 6 cylinder engine note, not to mention characteristics, is inherently more appealing than anything short of one of the fancier, much newer Boxsters (and with their endlessly long gear ratios and even greater size and heft probably still not).
If I think of it as two thirds of an Exige for a fraction of the price, a modern convertible Stratos after a few beers and kebabs, or just the perfect recipe for a sports car which I'm not sure I'd ever tire of it starts to look a bit like reasonable investment....
Back to suspension, if I could stretch to a set of KWs it'd be a no brainer. Unfortunately and for the foreseeable future - no chance.
I am ever so ever so slowly creeping my way up to the post count for entry into the for sale section - not only am I a seasoned forum lurker, but I wouldn't want to look like some profiteering capitalist scumbag now, would I.
So watch that space, coilovers for sale... one day 😂 might have to get the earth round the sun a few more times first.
I was in the same position a very long time ago willing to compromise on a set of Koni inserts. I just saved over a period of time and got exactly what I wanted because as I mentioned it is the single best modification for this car. I have driven many miles on these struts and then had them rebuilt for a very low cost with great customer support. Once you buy into a good coilover system it can be with you for a very long time as an investment. It depends on how long you plan on keeping your car.
This car is in the sweet spot of ownership being that older cars prior to this generation require more maintenance and less reliability. The new cars having far too much complexity, weight and ownership costs. With inflation expected to go though the roof this year these cars will exponentially go up in value because it's a car that would never be sold today so I consider it a way of circumventing the rules especially with the flexibility of of cheap engine swaps.
I would really like to try some KW V3 on mine next, all depends how this year pans out with track time etc before i make that investment, also KW did tell me the V3 internal bushings are not durable for heavy track use with sticky rubber but its not a biig issue rebuilding as long as they last a decent amount of time, i dont run mega sticky rubber so hopefully wouldnt be an issue for me.
In the meantime the Konis i have on at moment do a sterling job for what they are, maybe some custom firmer springs next or just convert housing to take a coilover spring which was my original plan if i get around to it!, i just keep getting tempted by the bolt on aspect of the KW kit :D
Quote from: thetyrant on January 5, 2021, 11:47I would really like to try some KW V3 on mine next, all depends how this year pans out with track time etc before i make that investment, also KW did tell me the V3 internal bushings are not durable for heavy track use with sticky rubber but its not a biig issue rebuilding as long as they last a decent amount of time, i dont run mega sticky rubber so hopefully wouldnt be an issue for me.
In the meantime the Konis i have on at moment do a sterling job for what they are, maybe some custom firmer springs next or just convert housing to take a coilover spring which was my original plan if i get around to it!, i just keep getting tempted by the bolt on aspect of the KW kit :D
I think the Tein Monoflex might be a better fit for you. Although they don't have some of the advantages of being a twin tube design for the street they are reported to be steetable and much better comfort than the BC. This will work well for the tack.
The KWs might be too soft for track use out of the box. There have been a few that have changed the spring rates with success since they are double adjustable and I remember hearing the valving can be upgraded by KW.
I know for my Teins they have a valving and spring option which the rebuilder advised against unless I track the car. It was nice to speak personally by phone to Japanese technician who was rebuilding my coilovers.
Has anyone any experience of the BC ER's - Just read through the thread and did wonder
I'm working 50 yds from BC Racing and twice a day I wonder whether to shout through the window and ask
Quote from: tets on January 5, 2021, 20:04Has anyone any experience of the BC ER's - Just read through the thread and did wonder
I'm working 50 yds from BC Racing and twice a day I wonder whether to shout through the window and ask
Interesting new option. I like what I see. double adjustable, external oil reservoir which means more shock oil and no cartridge type cheapness. These have the potential to be good for both street and track.
What I don't like is the price for being competitive to the Japanese and European brands which are extensively researched and have a reputation. You should ask them what kind of testing they used to determine the valving and spring rates.
Quote from: Dev on January 5, 2021, 18:25I think the Tein Monoflex might be a better fit for you. Although they don't have some of the advantages of being a twin tube design for the street they are reported to be steetable and much better comfort than the BC. This will work well for the tack.
The KWs might be too soft for track use out of the box. There have been a few that have changed the spring rates with success since they are double adjustable and I remember hearing the valving can be upgraded by KW.
I know for my Teins they have a valving and spring option which the rebuilder advised against unless I track the car. It was nice to speak personally by phone to Japanese technician who was rebuilding my coilovers.
Ive looked at the Tein Monosport a few times but for our bumpy UK roads which i still do a lot of with the car i think they will be too uncomfortable due to valving being more track focused, much like the cheaper far east coilovers the damping just isnt compliant enough from those ive spoken to with them.
Agreed KW will be a touch soft for outright track use out the box although better than what i have now and im not one for running a firm setup even on track, however the bushing issue is another concern which for the money they cost is one of main reasons ive not already tried them, i tried to blag a set from KW uk as i work with them on there brakes but no freebies as they were to build up, i did get some discount offered but still to much for me at moment, i think some firmer springs on Konis will do the job for now as there just isnt a good enough option off the shelf over here at least.
BC ER is one that ive pondered as well, i was at my Ohlins tech centre a few years ago getting some setup done and they had some BC ER on the dyno, the intention was to strip internals and fit Ohlins parts just reusing the BC casing, but the tech guy was quite impressed with the ER valving on dyno at least so decided to run as they were to see how they held up on the car, this was a different car though but i found it interesting all the same.
Suspension is such a personal thing its hard to know what works for you until you try it yourself, ive learnt the hard way to only take what other users say with a pinch of salt, especially if they have recently purchased and still in the honeymoon period lol :)
Quote from: thetyrant on January 6, 2021, 09:41Quote from: Dev on January 5, 2021, 18:25I think the Tein Monoflex might be a better fit for you. Although they don't have some of the advantages of being a twin tube design for the street they are reported to be steetable and much better comfort than the BC. This will work well for the tack.
The KWs might be too soft for track use out of the box. There have been a few that have changed the spring rates with success since they are double adjustable and I remember hearing the valving can be upgraded by KW.
I know for my Teins they have a valving and spring option which the rebuilder advised against unless I track the car. It was nice to speak personally by phone to Japanese technician who was rebuilding my coilovers.
Ive looked at the Tein Monosport a few times but for our bumpy UK roads which i still do a lot of with the car i think they will be too uncomfortable due to valving being more track focused, much like the cheaper far east coilovers the damping just isnt compliant enough from those ive spoken to with them.
Agreed KW will be a touch soft for outright track use out the box although better than what i have now and im not one for running a firm setup even on track, however the bushing issue is another concern which for the money they cost is one of main reasons ive not already tried them, i tried to blag a set from KW uk as i work with them on there brakes but no freebies as they were to build up, i did get some discount offered but still to much for me at moment, i think some firmer springs on Konis will do the job for now as there just isnt a good enough option off the shelf over here at least.
BC ER is one that ive pondered as well, i was at my Ohlins tech centre a few years ago getting some setup done and they had some BC ER on the dyno, the intention was to strip internals and fit Ohlins parts just reusing the BC casing, but the tech guy was quite impressed with the ER valving on dyno at least so decided to run as they were to see how they held up on the car, this was a different car though but i found it interesting all the same.
Suspension is such a personal thing its hard to know what works for you until you try it yourself, ive learnt the hard way to only take what other users say with a pinch of salt, especially if they have recently purchased and still in the honeymoon period lol :)
If there is any chance of a discount on KW I would be interested.
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 6, 2021, 11:48If there is any chance of a discount on KW I would be interested.
It was a personal discount i was offered being in the trade and helping out with brakes for their track cars sorry, even then it was still well north of a grand and not enough to make me jump at it :(
There might be scope in doing a bulk/group buy to get discount but i doubt there is enough people on here willing to stump up over £1000 on suspension to make it worthwhile exercise :(
Quote from: thetyrant on January 6, 2021, 09:41Quote from: Dev on January 5, 2021, 18:25I think the Tein Monoflex might be a better fit for you. Although they don't have some of the advantages of being a twin tube design for the street they are reported to be steetable and much better comfort than the BC. This will work well for the tack.
The KWs might be too soft for track use out of the box. There have been a few that have changed the spring rates with success since they are double adjustable and I remember hearing the valving can be upgraded by KW.
I know for my Teins they have a valving and spring option which the rebuilder advised against unless I track the car. It was nice to speak personally by phone to Japanese technician who was rebuilding my coilovers.
Ive looked at the Tein Monosport a few times but for our bumpy UK roads which i still do a lot of with the car i think they will be too uncomfortable due to valving being more track focused, much like the cheaper far east coilovers the damping just isnt compliant enough from those ive spoken to with them.
Agreed KW will be a touch soft for outright track use out the box although better than what i have now and im not one for running a firm setup even on track, however the bushing issue is another concern which for the money they cost is one of main reasons ive not already tried them, i tried to blag a set from KW uk as i work with them on there brakes but no freebies as they were to build up, i did get some discount offered but still to much for me at moment, i think some firmer springs on Konis will do the job for now as there just isnt a good enough option off the shelf over here at least.
BC ER is one that ive pondered as well, i was at my Ohlins tech centre a few years ago getting some setup done and they had some BC ER on the dyno, the intention was to strip internals and fit Ohlins parts just reusing the BC casing, but the tech guy was quite impressed with the ER valving on dyno at least so decided to run as they were to see how they held up on the car, this was a different car though but i found it interesting all the same.
Suspension is such a personal thing its hard to know what works for you until you try it yourself, ive learnt the hard way to only take what other users say with a pinch of salt, especially if they have recently purchased and still in the honeymoon period lol :)
If I could get any discount from KW I would be all over them also. Interesting about the BC ER but I think its too early to know unless we have a few take a chance on them and even then what is their bases of comparison.
I also take things with a pinch of salt as there is a lot of deceptive information out there with track guys going on endlessly with shock dynos to judge suspension. The dynos don't paint the whole picture unless its done on the car. Also although street designed coilovers generally have poor crosstalk and other things compared to track suspension what they don't tell you is there is a tradeoff with good dyno graphs as the internal seals don't last as long and need frequent rebuilds. A street coilover needs to fit a different criteria like longevity, road comfort and corrosion protection.
This is definitely a insightful and interesting read for anyone thinking of installing a set of aftermarket coilovers. Has there been any long term reviews from forum members in regards to the Meister r zeta crd's or any of the bc racing options for example? Cheers team!
Quote from: Hammond on January 7, 2021, 16:28This is definitely a insightful and interesting read for anyone thinking of installing a set of aftermarket coilovers. Has there been any long term reviews from forum members in regards to the Meister r zeta crd's or any of the bc racing options for example? Cheers team!
Can give a long term review of the BCs if required. Might be worth its own topic
Quote from: shnazzle on January 7, 2021, 22:04Quote from: Hammond on January 7, 2021, 16:28This is definitely a insightful and interesting read for anyone thinking of installing a set of aftermarket coilovers. Has there been any long term reviews from forum members in regards to the Meister r zeta crd's or any of the bc racing options for example? Cheers team!
Can give a long term review of the BCs if required. Might be worth its own topic
That would be greatly appreciated if not too much trouble! 8)
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 4, 2021, 11:59If you go for a V6 you must have some sort of height adjustable suspension stock suspension grounds out on a spirited drive.
I'm pretty confident I should have bought a boxster S.
With hindsight I should of known I wouldn't of been happy with a 200bhp motor and going forced induction was going to be trouble.
I suppose I paint a bleak picture for people thinking about mods and swaps. I feel that everyone shouts really loudly when it's all going well and then quietly disappears off the face of the planet when something goes wrong.
This is probably one of the most helpful, grounding things I've ever read - because I will absolutely find myself in the same position!
Slowly creeping up on the realisation less just my be more for my MR2, and that I really ought to keep it relatively close to the way god/mr T intended it to be.
Predictably still no progress on either a suspension refresh, or in fact any coil over Flogging!
Quote from: R.Sointment on January 24, 2021, 10:33Quote from: 1979scotte on January 4, 2021, 11:59If you go for a V6 you must have some sort of height adjustable suspension stock suspension grounds out on a spirited drive.
I'm pretty confident I should have bought a boxster S.
With hindsight I should of known I wouldn't of been happy with a 200bhp motor and going forced induction was going to be trouble.
I suppose I paint a bleak picture for people thinking about mods and swaps. I feel that everyone shouts really loudly when it's all going well and then quietly disappears off the face of the planet when something goes wrong.
This is probably one of the most helpful, grounding things I've ever read - because I will absolutely find myself in the same position!
Slowly creeping up on the realisation less just my be more for my MR2, and that I really ought to keep it relatively close to the way god/mr T intended it to be.
Predictably still no progress on either a suspension refresh, or in fact any coil over Flogging!
Thanks
Just want people to be forewarned and forearmed.
If you want more grunt then I personally think a gentle turbo is financially the best way to go.
Wise words.
If I was doing it again, it would be low power turbo that would be what I looked at.
Quote from: Topdownman on January 24, 2021, 16:33Wise words.
If I was doing it again, it would be low power turbo that would be what I looked at.
Let's assume that young Josh also agrees as he sold his V6 only months after getting it done.
Bleak indeed.
They are serious fun and pretty quick up there with a 2.7 boxster I reckon.
When they work.
Not sure why anybody wants to try and improve the handling on these cars. Sure they sit a bit high, and lowering them is fine but in the real world, on real roads, 90% of the time, Mr T got it spot on.
Even had mine on track, and i will track it again.
I had all the plans in mind when i bought it, stiffen this, change that, coilovers etc. By the end of my first track day all this had gone. The car was exactly what i wanted when i bought it, cheap fun.
Quote from: Iain on January 24, 2021, 22:15Not sure why anybody wants to try and improve the handling on these cars. Sure they sit a bit high, and lowering them is fine but in the real world, on real roads, 90% of the time, Mr T got it spot on.
Even had mine on track, and i will track it again.
I had all the plans in mind when i bought it, stiffen this, change that, coilovers etc. By the end of my first track day all this had gone. The car was exactly what i wanted when i bought it, cheap fun.
I would always like to improve the car.
Problem is its not easy to better it out of the box.
Apart from bracing which improves the car immensely especially if you have an early model.
Coilovers.
Everyone has different opinions.
I like my MeisterR but would prefer more compliance on the worst roads.
I agree that good fresh stock suspension is hard to beat especially on an otherwise unmodified car.
I'm surprised you don't want it a bit stiffer for track tbh.
Maybe in the future if i really get into the track days i would look further into making it stiffer, for now its fine for what i want.
Like you mention, hard to beat out of the box.
I noticed a post on Faceache today about D2 coilovers for the Mk3. It mentioned custom spring rates, so I enquired as to whether they tune the valving to suit changes in spring rates. The answer... "The valving is altered on the coilover itself, they're fully adjustable." :facepalm:
Not the sort of people I want to buy suspension from.
Quote from: Roj on February 16, 2021, 20:31I noticed a post on Faceache today about D2 coilovers for the Mk3. It mentioned custom spring rates, so I enquired as to whether they tune the valving to suit changes in spring rates. The answer... "The valving is altered on the coilover itself, they're fully adjustable." :facepalm:
Not the sort of people I want to buy suspension from.
From what I understand the D2 might be a better version but the same body as the BC. Some say they are worse.
There are a lot of manufactures that use the BC Coilovers as a base and then add their own flair and marketing to sell close to the same product. There are others that modify the internals to make them better for street use.
If they advertise something like 32 point of adjustment it is a giveaway that its not worthy of your time, stay with stock or just save up for quality suspension where the body of the shock contains the shock oil without the use of cartridges.
Quote from: Dev on February 16, 2021, 21:26Quote from: Roj on February 16, 2021, 20:31I noticed a post on Faceache today about D2 coilovers for the Mk3. It mentioned custom spring rates, so I enquired as to whether they tune the valving to suit changes in spring rates. The answer... "The valving is altered on the coilover itself, they're fully adjustable." :facepalm:
Not the sort of people I want to buy suspension from.
From what I understand the D2 might be a better version but the same body as the BC. Some say they are worse.
There are a lot of manufactures that use the BC Coilovers as a base and then add their own flair and marketing to sell close to the same product. There are others that modify the internals to make them better for street use.
If they advertise something like 32 point of adjustment it is a giveaway that its not worthy of your time, stay with stock or just save up for quality suspension where the body of the shock contains the shock oil without the use of cartridges.
Tbh I anticipated the response that they wouldn't tune the damper to suit changes in spring rates. I wanted to see if they would offer it as an additional cost service or if they could even just give the impression they knew what they were talking about. They're just a store though, it wasn't actually D2 themselves so perhaps their HQ would have more knowledge.
Interesting re: the use of similar/same components. Makes sense, they're all similarly priced and spec'd.
I agree mostly with 'clicks don't equal quality', however, I've noticed some of the quality manufacturers are also offering similar features on their units lately. It's possible they don't have the same range of adjustment but I wonder if they're having to pander to the crowd as buyers who don't know better equate clicks to likes.
Has anyone seen this previously? Prices for the lower end kit are obviously higher than the typical BC/MeisterR kits but not too far away from KW or Tein: www.raceshocks.uk Coilovers Buyer's Guide (https://www.raceshocks.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Coil-Over-Buyers-Guide-October-2020.pdf)
Quote from: Roj on February 17, 2021, 08:41Quote from: Dev on February 16, 2021, 21:26Quote from: Roj on February 16, 2021, 20:31I noticed a post on Faceache today about D2 coilovers for the Mk3. It mentioned custom spring rates, so I enquired as to whether they tune the valving to suit changes in spring rates. The answer... "The valving is altered on the coilover itself, they're fully adjustable." :facepalm:
Not the sort of people I want to buy suspension from.
From what I understand the D2 might be a better version but the same body as the BC. Some say they are worse.
There are a lot of manufactures that use the BC Coilovers as a base and then add their own flair and marketing to sell close to the same product. There are others that modify the internals to make them better for street use.
If they advertise something like 32 point of adjustment it is a giveaway that its not worthy of your time, stay with stock or just save up for quality suspension where the body of the shock contains the shock oil without the use of cartridges.
Tbh I anticipated the response that they wouldn't tune the damper to suit changes in spring rates. I wanted to see if they would offer it as an additional cost service or if they could even just give the impression they knew what they were talking about. They're just a store though, it wasn't actually D2 themselves so perhaps their HQ would have more knowledge.
Interesting re: the use of similar/same components. Makes sense, they're all similarly priced and spec'd.
I agree mostly with 'clicks don't equal quality', however, I've noticed some of the quality manufacturers are also offering similar features on their units lately. It's possible they don't have the same range of adjustment but I wonder if they're having to pander to the crowd as buyers who don't know better equate clicks to likes.
Has anyone seen this previously? Prices for the lower end kit are obviously higher than the typical BC/MeisterR kits but not too far away from KW or Tein: www.raceshocks.uk Coilovers Buyer's Guide (https://www.raceshocks.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Coil-Over-Buyers-Guide-October-2020.pdf)
I checked out the PDF. It was well written and its interesting to see active options now other than what has been offered by TEIN.
There are some areas of distinction that was left out that I think are important. There is no consideration into what makes an ideal coilovers for the street and researched sets. This is where Tein, KW and the like becoming distinctly different particularly the sets they make for primarily street use. Im sure they can manufacture a great set by trial and error though road testing and subjective interpretation but nothing beats having engineers use sophisticated equipment like the OEM designing suspension where the body of the shock is custom made for the application than throwing together available parts.
The article makes some good points regarding some of the goals of suspension.
QuoteGood suspension setup will provide confidence in the car which will always lead to performance gain.
One of the things I often read about regarding stiffness and track use is often misguided.
There is
1. stiff but well dampened. think Ohlins
2. stiff not well dampened. BC
3. Firm well dampened KW V3, Cusco Zero 2
4. Soft un-dampened. tired OEM suspension.
5. Soft dampened. KYB replacements
This has a lot to do with low speed damping as far as comfort but even for a set of race suspension they will be far more comfortable on the road than the cheap Taiwanese coilovers for one simple reason and that is more shock oil. When they say BCs are more track oriented that is the furthest thing from the truth as they don't do anything particularly well.
It would be nice if they made a fixed researched set for our car for street use. Its too bad KYB did not make a performance version of their damper or a company like Bilstein that makes them for other makes. It would have sold very well and would have been the right product and cost for 90% of us.
I have emailed raceshocks.uk asking for clarification on their pricing structure, yet to hear back.