MR2 Roadster Owners Club

Hi all. Since i joined this forum and after buying my first 2, ive read so much about doing a suspension refresh and the difference it makes.

Can anyone clarify what this difference is exactly? More grip/better handling? Comfort?

My car is an 03 and only 73k on the clock.

The suspension seems totally fine. No knocks, rattles, or anything else related with tired suspension.

I will be using it on track, and having done my first track day i was very happy with the way it handled for a stock car on mis-match tyres.

I want to lower the car mainly for looks, and was wondering about replacing the shocks at the same time. But is it really going to be worth the £300 or so to do the shocks when all seems fine?

Would love any input, thanks in advance.

If you are just refreshing or replacing like for like, then at the age of the car it will just generally feel a bit more taught and responsive.

The 'upgrades' path is a big can of worms. Some dive straight in as soon as the car sees a sniff of track work, but I would dissuade from doing this - the standard car is pretty capable, a lot of fun on track, and will teach you a lot.

I'm only down in Bamber Bridge btw if you ever fancy a car-natter / mini meet!

Quote from: AdamR28 on December 20, 2020, 19:32If you are just refreshing or replacing like for like, then at the age of the car it will just generally feel a bit more taught and responsive.

The 'upgrades' path is a big can of worms. Some dive straight in as soon as the car sees a sniff of track work, but I would dissuade from doing this - the standard car is pretty capable, a lot of fun on track, and will teach you a lot.

I'm only down in Bamber Bridge btw if you ever fancy a car-natter / mini meet!

So no major difference with new, just feel a tad fresher.

Id like to keep the car pretty standard, it performs perfectly well for me.  Wont be going to coilovers or anything like that.

Yes, when the world is normal again i would be up for a meet.

Quote from: Iain on December 20, 2020, 20:39Yes, when the world is normal again i would be up for a meet.

Looks like that will be august/september nex year; better take the first more relaxed opportunity ;-)

Quote from: Iain on December 20, 2020, 20:39

Quote from: AdamR28 on December 20, 2020, 19:32If you are just refreshing or replacing like for like, then at the age of the car it will just generally feel a bit more taught and responsive.

The 'upgrades' path is a big can of worms. Some dive straight in as soon as the car sees a sniff of track work, but I would dissuade from doing this - the standard car is pretty capable, a lot of fun on track, and will teach you a lot.

I'm only down in Bamber Bridge btw if you ever fancy a car-natter / mini meet!

So no major difference with new, just feel a tad fresher.

Id like to keep the car pretty standard, it performs perfectly well for me.  Wont be going to coilovers or anything like that.

Yes, when the world is normal again i would be up for a meet.

"a tad fresher" can be a massive understatement depending on the state of your existing springs/dampers. 

Over time the suspension becomes "soft", bouncy, and crashy.
Replace with fresh and it becomes taught, comfortable and controlled. 
If your car has done 45k,maybe not as noticeable,but noticeable. If it has done closer to 100k I'd dare say you're entering "night/day" territory

I thought there wasn't much wrong with my original shocks and springs, until one started to leak a little at around 88,000 miles.  So I decided to go overboard and treat her to new KYB shocks and stock springs all round.

It was a revelation. "So THIS is how good they were fresh out of the factory then!"

Obviously budget is always a consideration but I would change any shocks and springs at 50k and would look at all the bushes too.
Again it depends on whether the car is a keeper or not. If intending to sell on perhaps just enjoy as it is.

If you are happy with the car at present, no need to change anything.

If you are going to fit lowering springs (especially if you are paying someone rather than doing it yourself) it makes sense to do the shocks at the same time rather than have to do again later.

Do you know how long you are likely to keep the car? You are unlikely to have to do 2 suspension refreshs on it but if you plan to keep it a few years, you will almost certainly have to do it at some point. To my mind, why put it off when it could transform the car? You may as well have all the years of your ownership on good suspension rather than just some.

The kybs sometimes fall under deals of 15-20% off from certain suppliers on ebay so its worth watching the cheapest ones you can find and hoping a deal comes up and you may get a set for under £250.

Quote from: Carolyn on December 21, 2020, 08:52I thought there wasn't much wrong with my original shocks and springs, until one started to leak a little at around 88,000 miles.  So I decided to go overboard and treat her to new KYB shocks and stock springs all round.

It was a revelation. "So THIS is how good they were fresh out of the factory then!"

Carolyn is spot on (you'll notice that a lot). Mine is an 04 and had similar miles to yours (OP). There was nothing 'wrong' with the car but given the age and number of previous owners I opted for new kyb's and the tein springs, with a proper alignment too.

I went down this route as the car is mostly used on B roads and needs a bit of compliance. Definitely inspires more confidence when pushing on compared to the old, slightly bouncy suspension. No doubt fresh OEM parts would have a similar impact.

Tellingly, the tein springs are in a box that says 'dress up master' or something similar so they aren't massively stiff for track use.

Thanks for all the input, seems its definately worth spending the money and getting it done.

I always have in my head the old saying of 'if it aint broke dont fix it' but in this case if the difference is so noticable then that kinda doesnt fit.

Im planning on keeping the car for a while so as mentioned above its worth doing sooner rather than later, then can be used an enjoyed as intended.

Thanks all

To echo others, I'm another who refreshed the stock suspension at 65k miles.

Felt like a new car. Spend the money, drive it & reflect on a wise investment.

Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

Quote from: 1979scotte on December 21, 2020, 11:03Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

Well, actually........

We have a 2003 and replaced the struts (probably originals with a lot of miles) with new KYB. With stock springs, the difference was "not much". But the change was still worthwhile as original front struts showed wear on the shock shaft.

Lowering springs are always stiffer to prevent bottoming.  New KYB work pretty well with springs like Tein, but are bit under damped. Koni inserts made a noticeable difference and work much better. 

We have also used Koni's with stock springs and while better than the KYB, the difference isn't that great and may not justify the cost difference.

And another question will my roadster always have stock power?

Again if considering turbo, 2zz swap etc a suspension refresh is a good idea.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in to ask but is there a standard height spring recommended other than Toyota.
I've just broken one of the rear springs and so will refresh the suspension with a full set of KYB dampers but I can only see Toyota springs if I don't want to lower the car.

Thanks. Dave

Quote from: dm1 on December 21, 2020, 13:28Hope you don't mind me jumping in to ask but is there a standard height spring recommended other than Toyota.
I've just broken one of the rear springs and so will refresh the suspension with a full set of KYB dampers but I can only see Toyota springs if I don't want to lower the car.

Thanks. Dave

Welcome!

You can give TCB a ring to see if there are any other options as they are very knowledgeable about such things.

http://www.tcbparts.co.uk/suspension.htm#Mr2(Suspension)

Quote from: 1979scotte on December 21, 2020, 11:03Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

 Most people who have bought a used example will not know that their suspension is expired because they have no bases of comparison.

 The signs of bad suspension is not a rough ride or excessive sway as it usually never gets to that point unless the car has seen extensive neglect. The car will feel mostly fine for daily driving. Where the suspension unveils its self is when the car is performance driven to where there is a sensation of mid corner float. The driver will tend to slow down thinking the limits have been reached because they have virtually no feedback. 
  I have driven many examples of used cars that the new owner thought the suspension was just fine and it clearly wasn't. A new set of KYBs made them understand how bad it was. 

wrong link sorry

Quote from: Topdownman on December 21, 2020, 14:23You can give TCB a ring to see if there are any other options as they are very knowledgeable about such things.

http://www.tcbparts.co.uk/suspension.htm#Mr2(Suspension)

Thanks for the recommendation. There are KYB and Japanparts springs available in standard height so I have placed an order with Paul.

As well as springs and shocks would you also recommend replacing top mounts front and rear?

Its usually a case of seeing what they look like when you dismantle the old ones.

The rears fare much better than the fronts generally so chances are they will be ok with just a de-rust and paint.

You may only need to replace some of the parts of the front ones rather than everything.

They usually look really bad with rust to start with but I would say a lot get saved and re-used?

I've got 2x MR2 although neither are running at the moment.

One started off as a fast 2ZZ road car and has escalated to a track focused car. Its on BCs, Whileline ARBs, semi slick tyres, camber bolts, poly bushed etc and has had a good refresh from top to bottom.
The second is a standard ish setup 1ZZ but DIY turbo'd. As much as it pains me on the roads around my house the standard KYB with Apexi springs is much less stressful to drive and probably quicker.

My advice would be if you are using it on the road for any sort of "Fun" driving then stick with KYBs and lowered springs, but if you spend time chasing 1/10th of a second and drive on uber smooth roads then pick coilovers.

Remember it takes time and some expertise to property setup any car on coilovers. 

Quote from: Topdownman on February 17, 2021, 13:53Its usually a case of seeing what they look like when you dismantle the old ones.

The rears fare much better than the fronts generally so chances are they will be ok with just a de-rust and paint.

You may only need to replace some of the parts of the front ones rather than everything.

They usually look really bad with rust to start with but I would say a lot get saved and re-used?

Ok thanks for that. thats really helpful

It's recently been confirmed the Celica front mounts are the same. And the KYB now come with sealed bearings, rather than the originals which didn't.  Japan Parts/Akisha also have sealed bearings. 

A length of 6mm fuel line fitted & glued on the underside of the top mount should stop road grit getting up to the bearing.

How odd this thread got commented on today, last night i ordered a full set of new shocks an springs, all OEM.  ;D

Quote from: Iain on February 17, 2021, 18:23How odd this thread got commented on today, last night i ordered a full set of new shocks an springs, all OEM.  ;D

Couldn't agree more. Greatchoice.

Quote from: Iain on February 17, 2021, 18:23How odd this thread got commented on today, last night i ordered a full set of new shocks an springs, all OEM.  ;D

Well played.

Sorry off track but has anybody across the pond "Cough" Dev tried the S3 coilovers?

Quote from: Mark A on February 18, 2021, 11:51Sorry off track but has anybody across the pond "Cough" Dev tried the S3 coilovers?

He's here as well you know :) both sides of the pond

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on February 17, 2021, 16:11It's recently been confirmed the Celica front mounts are the same. And the KYB now come with sealed bearings, rather than the originals which didn't.  Japan Parts/Akisha also have sealed bearings. 

A length of 6mm fuel line fitted & glued on the underside of the top mount should stop road grit getting up to the bearing.

Thanks Gaz. i'm just about to order Toyota Celica 1.8 16v 1999-2005 Front Suspension Strut Top Mounts & Bearings
from ebay.

Buy known quality top mounts like KYB.  I bought a set of cheap off brand mounts off eBay and the top bearings failed in under 20,000 miles.

Quote from: Mark A on February 18, 2021, 11:51S3 coilovers

I never heard of them. Do you have a link.

Quote from: Dev on February 18, 2021, 14:52

Quote from: Mark A on February 18, 2021, 11:51S3 coilovers

I never heard of them. Do you have a link.

I don't think they have a website however they have a instagram account; s3suspension. They do look fairly generic and come with swift springs as standard which may or may not just be a marketing strategy. The company is run by Kevin Meacham aka "kmeachy" who is quite present in the US mr2 scene if I'm not mistaken?

"Togue Time" was gifted a set and he gives quite an honest review and I believe he still runs them;

Quote from: Hammond on February 18, 2021, 15:02

Quote from: Dev on February 18, 2021, 14:52

Quote from: Mark A on February 18, 2021, 11:51S3 coilovers

I never heard of them. Do you have a link.

I don't think they have a website however they have a instagram account; s3suspension. They do look fairly generic and come with swift springs as standard which may or may not just be a marketing strategy. The company is run by Kevin Meacham aka "kmeachy" who is quite present in the US mr2 scene if I'm not mistaken?

 There have been a few start ups in the past from some performance shops that claimed to make their own sets. They claimed they researched them and would have a testimonial from a member in the group that was getting a free set if they set up a group buy going on their behalf. They often avoid where they are made until pressed. 
When probed with questions like where are they made and so forth we find out they are the same Taiwanese coilover bodies. It may have been revamped with different springs and other things but they are all crippled because they use the same cartridge inserts.

 What I would do is start asking questions
 1. Where are they made? If they don't know its surely Taiwan or Korea.
 2. What is the range of adjustment. If its more than 24 its a give away.
 3. Spring rates. Can they be changed. If they say yes its a give away they are the same old.
 4. Where to get them rebuilt. If they mentioned cartridges you know for sure they are the same old.
 
  If they say the coilovers are somewhat fixed and have limited adjustment range then they pass the first round. If you take a coilover and open up the valve all the way open it can damaged the strut, most do not know this, that is why the range is limited.

   Its very hard to beat the name brand manufactures. This includes KYB, Koni and the others that are made in-house by multimillion dollar reputable companies that have an engineering staff. That is what is required to get it right.
 I have heard that the Tiwanese coilovers are wholesaled for as low as $300 a set, just imagine the margins and the incentive to rebrand and sell them.

They seem to be only on FB and IG, mainly a Honda specialist. If you search FB it will come up as https://www.facebook.com/S3Suspension. They seem to use IG as the main selling forum,  they are supporting a number of track MR2s

I finished watching the video and I actually like the guy from his previous videos. It seems like a modified version of the same Taiwanese coilovers with 32 adjustment points. The springs are too stiff for road use.
I would pass on these and instead buy a proper street coilover that has a twin tube construction or just purchase a new set of KYBs.  For racing anything goes so maybe its modified to be good I don't know but I would rather have a set of Ohlins or Tein Monoflex. 

Ohlins rarer than hens teeth!

Quote from: Mark A on February 18, 2021, 15:58Ohlins rarer than hens teeth!

  There is a guy that did really well on a set of KW V3 with modified springs.
 Generally a set of street coilovers that are made for comfort on real roads are not suppose to be this good for a purely race application especially going against cars well above its class. The owner told me that they worked really well.

https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/ultimate-street-car-challenge.134753/ (https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/ultimate-street-car-challenge.134753/)

 There are plenty of people that have done well on Koni or even a completely stock car as far track times go but its not exactly the goals of street suspension.
 For the street its not so much about speed or even ultimate grip, its more about feel especially for the inexperienced driver that is looking for a better drive to put a smile on his or her face. A better drive starts with with a balanced forgiving  car near the limits for a rewarding drive or if the car goes over the limit for accident avoidance.  When we use all out race suspension on the street it can be very unforgiving on a knifes edge if it gets unsettled which is what you don't want. Very different goals.

 For most people a street coilover can also be exceptional on a track for a weekend racer before you would want to explore race options. 
 

I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Quote from: Benlake on March  8, 2021, 22:55I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Quote from: Iain on March  9, 2021, 12:53

Quote from: Benlake on March  8, 2021, 22:55I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Have you been in a mk3 with coilovers?
They're not for everyone certainly but I've had MeisterR on all 3 of mine and it's never driven me insane.
However with an unmodified engine stock is probably best.

Quote from: 1979scotte on March  9, 2021, 15:17

Quote from: Iain on March  9, 2021, 12:53

Quote from: Benlake on March  8, 2021, 22:55I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Have you been in a mk3 with coilovers?
They're not for everyone certainly but I've had MeisterR on all 3 of mine and it's never driven me insane.
However with an unmodified engine stock is probably best.

Not been in a mk3 but been in other cars with them and the ride is too harsh for my liking.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much
[/quote]

With the worn suspension on track it felt like we had max'ed out the performance after a few hours and the suspension / tyres were the limiting factor. With the mods it now feels like the driver is the limiting factor, but if any thing it feels more controllable just at higher speeds.

On the road the coilovers on softest setting aren't too bad, I think the engine mounts and semi slicks made a bigger difference.

By the time you replace dampers / springs / top mounts / rubber gaiters etc it probably doesn't work much more expensive.

Quote from: Iain on March  9, 2021, 15:59

Quote from: 1979scotte on March  9, 2021, 15:17

Quote from: Iain on March  9, 2021, 12:53

Quote from: Benlake on March  8, 2021, 22:55I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Have you been in a mk3 with coilovers?
They're not for everyone certainly but I've had MeisterR on all 3 of mine and it's never driven me insane.
However with an unmodified engine stock is probably best.

Not been in a mk3 but been in other cars with them and the ride is too harsh for my liking.

See if you can try someone's car out they can be good fun in the right circumstances.
Although a decent set of koni are pretty good too.

[quote/]

See if you can try someone's car out they can be good fun in the right circumstances.
Although a decent set of koni are pretty good too.
[/quote]

As is the standard car 😜

Dont get me wrong, coilovers have definately crossed my mind more than once, but all i kept thinking was im going to ruin something that is pretty hard to beat as standard.

Hence my reason to stay stock. When i replace it for OEM, i know i'll be happy.

This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

Quote from: almitch1 on March 11, 2021, 18:05This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

I changed to coilovers in a pub car park its not rocket science.

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 11, 2021, 18:07

Quote from: almitch1 on March 11, 2021, 18:05This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

I changed to coilovers in a pub car park its not rocket science.

That sounds amazing.... jack up the car, grab a few pints do the work few more pints.... Collect the car in morning.

WALLOP

Quote from: almitch1 on March 11, 2021, 18:17

Quote from: 1979scotte on March 11, 2021, 18:07

Quote from: almitch1 on March 11, 2021, 18:05This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

I changed to coilovers in a pub car park its not rocket science.

That sounds amazing.... jack up the car, grab a few pints do the work few more pints.... Collect the car in morning.

WALLOP

The pub was closed down.
It was a former members house/storage unit.

Don't drink and play with heavy duty springs.

Quote from: Beachbum957 on December 21, 2020, 12:07

Quote from: 1979scotte on December 21, 2020, 11:03Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

Well, actually........

We have a 2003 and replaced the struts (probably originals with a lot of miles) with new KYB. With stock springs, the difference was "not much".

Have to wonder what tyres you were running......

Fitted new KYBs and Teins to my 2003 (sitting on 65k) and the driving fun factor went from 30% (pretty awful) to nigh on 100%.

I'd just had 4 new AD08Rs fitted a few weeks before......

The previous tyres had been old and worn, but had worked so much better with old, worn suspension !

The stiff Yokos provided much sharper steering / much more immediate initial turn in to a corner than the tyres they replaced (presumably) leading to much more immediate transfer of cornering forces into the worn suspension.....The car sometimes settling into a corner more or less ok.....sometimes wobbling fairly alarmingly..... and you could never predict which  >:(

It could also be pretty floaty in a straight line (backroads especially).

Switched to the new KYBs and Teins and it was utterly transformed.

New Yokos + old suspension?

Felt like a worn out and borderline dangerous little 'fun' car with most of the fun oddly missing.

New Yokos + new suspension? 

Felt like a taut, supple and FUN thoroughbred sports car, with fabulous handling and grip.

Old tyres + old suspension?

The driving experience was (to some extent) somewhere in the middle between the two extremes on Yokos.

So like I said at the start have to wonder what tyres you were running  :) 

Quote from: K T M Rider on April 20, 2021, 17:07

Quote from: Beachbum957 on December 21, 2020, 12:07

Quote from: 1979scotte on December 21, 2020, 11:03Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

Well, actually........

We have a 2003 and replaced the struts (probably originals with a lot of miles) with new KYB. With stock springs, the difference was "not much".

Have to wonder what tyres you were running......

Fitted new KYBs and Teins to my 2003 (sitting on 65k) and the driving fun factor went from 30% (pretty awful) to nigh on 100%.

Almost new Yoko S-Drives.  But that was using the stock springs.  If you change springs from OEM to Tein, that should have a significant difference. If the original struts are worn, or lost their gas pressure, new struts will seem a bit stiffer, at least initially. We have run the following setups, all using S-Drives:

• OEM with stock springs - OK for a daily driver
• New KYB with stock springs - No real change after a couple hundred miles.
• Koni inserts with stock springs - Less compression damping, so a better ride, but with more control - not a huge change, but worth it
• New KYB with Tein - Much stiffer than stock, more responsive handling, but the damping was mismatched with insufficient rebound
• Koni inserts with Tein - A very noticeable difference and a big improvement as we could match damping to springs
• Koni inserts with H&R springs - Handling about the same as Tein, but slightly less lowering, seems slightly stiffer with less bottoming, more linear springs in the front

Conclusions:  The KYB work about the same as OEM (no surprise as they made the OEM), but would be an improvement over old worn struts.  Koni inserts work nicely with stock springs and give a slightly better ride. KYB struts work OK with stiffer springs, but the damping is mismatched so on certain roads you can get a sort of porpoising in the front, and some lack of suspension control on rough roads.  Koni's work very well with Tein or H&R springs. 

But the sweet spots for us have been the Koni's and H&R for handling, and Koni's and stock springs for a nice daily driver compromise.

Quote from: K T M Rider on April 20, 2021, 17:07I'd just had 4 new AD08Rs fitted a few weeks before......

For mé they are thé ´norm´ tyre.

Stiff enough for precise steering yet comfortable enough on real world tarmac and the grip...; regardsless of whether they grip a lot or whatever, they have such a wide spread between the optimals grip slip angles. They simply do not bréak away. They start giving and keep on giving till they give too much in a linear way.

I am thé one for trying things but I am sticking with these. They are a good measure of things for me.

Quote from: Petrus on April 24, 2021, 12:46

Quote from: K T M Rider on April 20, 2021, 17:07I'd just had 4 new AD08Rs fitted a few weeks before......

For mé they are thé ´norm´ tyre.

Stiff enough for precise steering yet comfortable enough on real world tarmac and the grip...; regardsless of whether they grip a lot or whatever, they have such a wide spread between the optimals grip slip angles. They simply do not bréak away. They start giving and keep on giving till they give too much in a linear way.

I am thé one for trying things but I am sticking with these. They are a good measure of things for me.

Most people don't realize that the tires and the seats are part of the suspension system.
I like stiff sidewall tires which are rare because the industry shifted towards making soft sidewall tires for factory cars that plus size so they dont have a harsh ride or bend wheels. When you find a tire that has a stiff sidewall construction that can still maintain its contact patch at the right tire pressures its heaven because you do not have to be dangerous to enjoy the feel of driving at reasonable speeds with plenty of safety margin. The car came with very stiff sidewalls from the factory and now its hard to find a good equivalent.

Quote from: Dev on April 24, 2021, 14:52Most people don't realize that the tires and the seats are part of the suspension system.

A slomo shot of an F1 tyre bouncing over a curb should solve that ;-)

Quote from: Beachbum957 on April 24, 2021, 11:46We have run the following setups, all using S-Drives:

• OEM with stock springs - OK for a daily driver
• New KYB with stock springs - No real change after a couple hundred miles.
• Koni inserts with stock springs - Less compression damping, so a better ride, but with more control - not a huge change, but worth it
• New KYB with Tein - Much stiffer than stock, more responsive handling, but the damping was mismatched with insufficient rebound
• Koni inserts with Tein - A very noticeable difference and a big improvement as we could match damping to springs
• Koni inserts with H&R springs - Handling about the same as Tein, but slightly less lowering, seems slightly stiffer with less bottoming, more linear springs in the front

Conclusions:  The KYB work about the same as OEM (no surprise as they made the OEM), but would be an improvement over old worn struts.  Koni inserts work nicely with stock springs and give a slightly better ride. KYB struts work OK with stiffer springs, but the damping is mismatched so on certain roads you can get a sort of porpoising in the front, and some lack of suspension control on rough roads.  Koni's work very well with Tein or H&R springs. 

But the sweet spots for us have been the Koni's and H&R for handling, and Koni's and stock springs for a nice daily driver compromise.

That's an impressive level of spring / damper experimentation for sure.

A little of my MK3 history.....

I joined this forum in 2010. At the time the Toyo T1R was a regularly recommended tyre choice on here and I don't remember much talk about the value of regular suspension refreshes.......

I suspect many owners were ok with running T1Rs on 60/70/80,000 mile old dampers because the soft sidewalls they were renowned for would have to some extent made any tailing off in damper performance less obvious to those owners than a stiffer sidewalled tyre.

One reason I suspect this is I ran my 2nd MK3 from 64k to 75k on Kumho KU31s, a tyre also known for their soft sidewalls. At the time (2011/2012) the car felt superb to me, but any MR2 will when you've been used to 1 1/2 tonnes of FWD diesel.

When I came back on here in 2017, you could say things had moved on a little. The most recommended tyre on the forum was now the Yokohama AD08R and there was alot more talk about the value of regular suspension refreshes......

(Ok so Scotte had joined the forum 😀)

In my experience the AD08R (with its steel reinforced sidewalls) is like a huge spotlight on spring / damper performance to an extent that many other tyres simply wouldn't be.

One of the key takeaways for me of running a car on 65k dampers and new AD08Rs was the car's ride and handling became unpredictable. On a UK backroad you couldn't even be sure how the car was going to behave in a straightline (floaty or reasonably composed?) let alone a sharp curve!

I appreciate that my fitment of Teins alongside the new KYBs confuses the issue, however given the straight-line floatiness and cornering unpredictability I'm pretty convinced that Teins or no Teins I would have seen a very significant improvement.....

Maybe my OEM dampers were more shot than yours? 🙂

Quote from: K T M Rider on May  7, 2021, 13:46I suspect many owners were ok with running T1Rs on 60/70/80,000 mile old dampers because the soft sidewalls they were renowned for would have to some extent made any tailing off in damper performance less obvious to those owners than a stiffer sidewalled tyre.

In my experience the AD08R (with its steel reinforced sidewalls) is like a huge spotlight on spring / damper performance to an extent that many other tyres simply wouldn't be.
One of the key takeaways for me of running a car on 65k dampers and new AD08Rs was the car's ride and handling became unpredictable. On a UK backroad you couldn't even be sure how the car was going to behave in a straightline (floaty or reasonably composed?) let alone a sharp curve!

That Sir, is a pérfect summary of tyres being a crucial and integral part of suspension.

The backdrop is that the OEM fitted tyres had quíte a stiff sidewall.

Quote from: K T M Rider on May  7, 2021, 13:46

Quote from: Beachbum957 on April 24, 2021, 11:46We have run the following setups, all using S-Drives:

• OEM with stock springs - OK for a daily driver
• New KYB with stock springs - No real change after a couple hundred miles.
• Koni inserts with stock springs - Less compression damping, so a better ride, but with more control - not a huge change, but worth it
• New KYB with Tein - Much stiffer than stock, more responsive handling, but the damping was mismatched with insufficient rebound
• Koni inserts with Tein - A very noticeable difference and a big improvement as we could match damping to springs
• Koni inserts with H&R springs - Handling about the same as Tein, but slightly less lowering, seems slightly stiffer with less bottoming, more linear springs in the front

Conclusions:  The KYB work about the same as OEM (no surprise as they made the OEM), but would be an improvement over old worn struts.  Koni inserts work nicely with stock springs and give a slightly better ride. KYB struts work OK with stiffer springs, but the damping is mismatched so on certain roads you can get a sort of porpoising in the front, and some lack of suspension control on rough roads.  Koni's work very well with Tein or H&R springs. 

But the sweet spots for us have been the Koni's and H&R for handling, and Koni's and stock springs for a nice daily driver compromise.

That's an impressive level of spring / damper experimentation for sure.

Maybe my OEM dampers were more shot than yours? 🙂

We have 2 MR2, a 2002 and a 2003, so we could try different things on each.  We ran the Tein-S springs with new KYB on the 2002 for about 20,000 miles.  Initially, the combination seemed great, but when we ran on some rather rough back roads, it became obvious the damping couldn't quite keep up with the stiffer springs. The 2002 has a lot of bracing and has a stiffer chassis, so the suspension gets worked a bit harder. So we went to the Koni's and they really made a difference.

With stock springs on the 2003, new KYB and even new Koni's made a difference, just not as much.

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 17:22Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 17:22Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 18:59

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 17:22Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Tyres?
Tyre pressures?
Have you had a full 4 wheel alignment?

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  8, 2021, 19:02

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 18:59

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 17:22Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Tyres?
Tyre pressures?
Have you had a full 4 wheel alignment?

Brand new Michelin PS3s. Oem pressures.
No alignment done as yet, but it will be done.

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 19:30

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  8, 2021, 19:02

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 18:59

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 17:22Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Tyres?
Tyre pressures?
Have you had a full 4 wheel alignment?

Brand new Michelin PS3s. Oem pressures.
No alignment done as yet, but it will be done.

Alignment makes a big difference.
Never used the PS3 what sizes?

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  8, 2021, 20:50

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

Quote from: mr2noob on May  8, 2021, 21:08

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  8, 2021, 20:50On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

Is it possible to refresh struts or is total replacement the only option? Cause on my bike I had the front forks taken apart, replaced seals, replaced oil and they work splendidly since then.

No reason you cant just replace the shockers. Only reason ive replaced the springs is the oem kybs are cheap, £60 all round so makes sense when its all in bits.

Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

Quote from: mr2noob on May  8, 2021, 22:11

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 21:45No reason you cant just replace the shockers.

Getting all new would cost me over 500 eur, with 400 being just dampers/shock absorbers. Unless I go for JapKO or Ashika which would be 200 eur.

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 21:45Only reason ive replaced the springs is the oem kybs are cheap, £60 all round so makes sense when its all in bits.

60 quid for 4 springs? Where did you get them? OEM height or lowered?

PC: did springs change from 2004 to 2005 model? Cause I'm looking on autodoc and some brands say the springs are for Mk.3 to 2004 year.

They were OEM height springs i got from a seller on ebay. Was lucky and got them under a package deal with 15% off. Got my shockers at the same time so the whole lot came to £350 or so.

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 21:42Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

My car had 70K miles of none too spirited yse on it.
Great ride, no reason to swap the shocks and I do really, réally push the limits.
Just a bit of floaty lack of feeling in fast long corners and the chicane like corners... well ´not exact´ is the best description. Mind, that is changing direction from grip limit to grip limit at the rear with the front desperate to find the extra traction to manhandle the car.
Still, quite a good ride.

Now, there is óne highway stretch, three lanes, sweeping bends, some 4-5% climb up a pass. The tarmac angled manage the run off of water and the crux... undulated.
At 130 km/h things became worrying. The float was making the car difficult to steer accurately. It simply did not stay on line. With 3 wide lanes not an issue but navigating instead of precisely tracking??

Went better shocks and well, not much of a change untill flógging the thing. It now stays on ány line I steer it on.
Can do the above mentioned highway incline at 150-160 and don´t go faser because it is public road with other cars.

Bottom line is unless shock have lost the oil, they will keep doing a satisfactory enough job untill you ask more than satisfactory from them. Beyond that new ones show the difference.
With the better shocks the grip the AD08Rs have is jaw dropping. Again something you will only notice if you úse that  grip.

Same with all. Take sway bars. Make no sense at all going adjustable, ´tune´ the set up if you have no issue with the OEM  balance and Whitelines will only be a massive disappointment.

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 22:12Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

And wont be the last

Problem being, I will get shot down for this, is, a lot of folks (generalization here) cant tell if a cars suspension is shot or not and do not realize that other things make up the handling package

Rob

Quote from: Zxrob on May  8, 2021, 22:42

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 22:12Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

And wont be the last

Problem being, I will get shot down for this, is, a lot of folks (generalization here) cant tell if a cars suspension is shot or not and do not realize that other things make up the handling package

Rob

Very true. I drove around with a snapped spring for months years ago. Wasn't until my wife was driving the car, the bit of spring dislodged and sent the car on a slide that we noticed.


Not much I don't feel on the 2, but then I've been with 2 for like 9 years.

Quote from: mr2noob on May  8, 2021, 22:42Omg, it's INSANE the prices for KYB 333320 gas strut reach in Europe!!! I've found two sellers in US, one on Amazon for $58 and another website offers them for $22, while otoh in Europe they go up to 150 eur per one strut.

Quote from: mr2noob on May  8, 2021, 22:31

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 22:30They were OEM height springs i got from a seller on ebay. Was lucky and got them under a package deal with 15% off. Got my shockers at the same time so the whole lot came to £350 or so.

Same seller for shockers as well? Do you by chance have the name of the ebay seller - is he a vendor or a regular person?

Yes same seller. It was 'parts in motion'. They have a website aswell. The deals come up now and again so if you can wait it out theres a decent saving to be had.

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 22:45

Quote from: Zxrob on May  8, 2021, 22:42

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 22:12Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

And wont be the last

Problem being, I will get shot down for this, is, a lot of folks (generalization here) cant tell if a cars suspension is shot or not and do not realize that other things make up the handling package

Rob

Very true. I drove around with a snapped spring for months years ago. Wasn't until my wife was driving the car, the bit of spring dislodged and sent the car on a slide that we noticed.

Not much I don't feel on the 2, but then I've been with 2 for like 9 years.

We all "fall fowl" at times

I used to run very expensive Ohlins suspension on my track bikes and had them professionally serviced every year, because, well, "thats the thing folks say is best to do", well I missed a season spending more money on my suspension, did I notice a difference in performance, hmm, nope

Rob

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 21:42

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  8, 2021, 20:50

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

Bigger than I would fit but perfectly fine.

Hopefully you'll be more impressed after an alignment.

I went back and read all of the posts. I don't see how you were miss led in some way to fuel your disappointment. Everyone's statement added context to the overall state of the suspension which was pretty much a depends situation.
My own suspension was shot at around 70k miles.  It was fine for most things but when I pushed it around a corner It was exhibiting mid corner float that felt uneasy. It was fixed with a good upgrade.

Quote from: Dev on May  9, 2021, 00:40I went back and read all of the posts. I don't see how you were miss led in some way to fuel your disappointment. Everyone's statement added context to the overall state of the suspension which was pretty much a depends situation.
My own suspension was shot at around 70k miles.  It was fine for most things but when I pushed it around a corner It was exhibiting mid corner float that felt uneasy. It was fixed with a good upgrade.

So the words 'revalation' 'entering night and day' 'transform the car' 'felt like brand new' 'you'll notice alot' isnt misleading. Ok.

Would just like to add that i feel im coming across as very ungrateful for peoples comments, which im not at all.

I do realise that many of the replies come from there own personal experience and many years on the forum witnessing others.

Unfortunately in my case it didnt work out as said. Majority have been very impressed with a refresh, guess im in the minority.

Quote from: Iain on May  9, 2021, 07:51Would just like to add that i feel im coming across as very ungrateful for peoples comments, which im not at all.

I do realise that many of the replies come from there own personal experience and many years on the forum witnessing others.

Unfortunately in my case it didnt work out as said. Majority have been very impressed with a refresh, guess im in the minority.

You are yet to have an alignment so let's wait until after that.

I take you at face value. You didn't find any improvement fair enough. Sorry you're disappointed.

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed so far but as said, you need an alignment before you will feel the end result. Hopefully that will improve things for you.

If your old units were OK, you should be able to sell them on which will reduce the cost of the new ones and at least you know they are all good now and wont need doing for years.

Is there any chance that the suspension had been done in the past but you have no record of it? Bit of a long shot but you never know!

My fingers are crossed for you.

Quote from: Topdownman on May  9, 2021, 08:42Sorry to hear that you are disappointed so far but as said, you need an alignment before you will feel the end result. Hopefully that will improve things for you.

If your old units were OK, you should be able to sell them on which will reduce the cost of the new ones and at least you know they are all good now and wont need doing for years.

Is there any chance that the suspension had been done in the past but you have no record of it? Bit of a long shot but you never know!

My fingers are crossed for you.

That's a good point.
If somebody else has already had the work done 25k miles ago they won't feel that knackered.

Quote from: Topdownman on May  9, 2021, 08:42Sorry to hear that you are disappointed so far but as said, you need an alignment before you will feel the end result. Hopefully that will improve things for you.

If your old units were OK, you should be able to sell them on which will reduce the cost of the new ones and at least you know they are all good now and wont need doing for years.

Is there any chance that the suspension had been done in the past but you have no record of it? Bit of a long shot but you never know!

My fingers are crossed for you.

Will hopefully get it booked in for alignment this week.

I think im gonna keep the old units for the future if i decide to go down the koni route, one never knows what they'll want to do next 😃

The peace of mind knowing all is new and well is a good feeling so its definately not a waste of effort and money.

The car came with a full service history so i doubt it has had new suspension in the past.

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  9, 2021, 08:15

Quote from: Iain on May  9, 2021, 07:51Would just like to add that i feel im coming across as very ungrateful for peoples comments, which im not at all.

I do realise that many of the replies come from there own personal experience and many years on the forum witnessing others.

Unfortunately in my case it didnt work out as said. Majority have been very impressed with a refresh, guess im in the minority.

You are yet to have an alignment so let's wait until after that.

I take you at face value. You didn't find any improvement fair enough. Sorry you're disappointed.

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

The Michelins - i wanted a top quality tyre that would work in all situations/weathers and would be able to cope with the odd track day i do. I couldnt find much else that fitted the bill, especially in oem (or close to) sizes.

Quote from: Iain on May  9, 2021, 07:28

Quote from: Dev on May  9, 2021, 00:40I went back and read all of the posts. I don't see how you were miss led in some way to fuel your disappointment. Everyone's statement added context to the overall state of the suspension which was pretty much a depends situation.
My own suspension was shot at around 70k miles.  It was fine for most things but when I pushed it around a corner It was exhibiting mid corner float that felt uneasy. It was fixed with a good upgrade.

So the words 'revalation' 'entering night and day' 'transform the car' 'felt like brand new' 'you'll notice alot' isnt misleading. Ok.

For some people who've performed the various refreshes then for them the differences have been as described above in one way or another.

I don't believe anybody here sets out to deliberately mislead with the things they post but at the end of the day it's down to the end user to weigh up the pros and cons relative to their own individual research/methodology and decide what's best for them.
In the main part it's the people who've refreshed theirs when they've recognised failings in the performance that have noticed the bigger improvements, as you say you didn't think there was anything really "wrong" with yours beforehand then maybe that's where the root of your "disappointment" lies?

Shocks wear out over time, making it difficult to determine when they need to be replaced, unless there is an obvious sign of failure, such as a leak.  A common recommendation is to replace on mileage.  But that is only a general gauge of how much wear exists.  Sometimes, they only way to know if a strut is worn is to replace them.

KYB made the OEM struts, so they should feel about the same as OEM. If you replace with them and the ones on the car are OEM or KYB and are still pretty good, you may not notice much difference. On the other hand, changing to a different strut brand or inserts like Koni, you may notice a distinct difference even if the struts being replaced are relatively new and in very good condition.

Different brands may have different damping curves or different gas pressures (which effects spring rate slightly) For example, Koni's have less compression damping and less gas pressure than KYB, but adjustable rebound.  So they may seem slightly softer on hitting a bump, but have more control over overall suspension movement.

One thing we did notice is new KYB struts (and others) seem a bit stiffer than struts with even a few hundred miles.  This could be because of tight clearances or even seal friction.  But after that initial "break-in", they stay very consistent for many miles.  So new struts may feel much stiffer, but the real test is how they work after a few hundred miles.

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  9, 2021, 08:15I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May  9, 2021, 19:10

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  9, 2021, 08:15I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

I only look at pfl sizes anyway.
Don't like the way the cars drive on wider rubber.

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May  9, 2021, 19:10

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  9, 2021, 08:15I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

What else is on your short list?

I almost pressed the button on some toyos tr1 but no stock rear size put me off

So far im very impressed with the ps3s. Grip is far improved from the oem bridgestones that were on previous.

Quote from: Iain on May  9, 2021, 19:47

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May  9, 2021, 19:10

Quote from: 1979scotte on May  9, 2021, 08:15I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

What else is on your short list?

I almost pressed the button on some toyos tr1 but no stock rear size put me off

So far im very impressed with the ps3s. Grip is far improved from the oem bridgestones that were on previous.

I had a car with Falken ZE310. I sold it, bought another, & would have gone 310's again, but one size was unavailable, so looked up Tyre tests & the standout tyre (apart from ADO8's) was Hankook K125. In most tests where both have been used, the Hankook beats the Falken.

But with Covid/Brexit the prices have shot up.  Before Brexit there were loads of ad's on ebay, & I bought the last 4 sets from Germany. No more, I suspect.....
I will also probably buy 195 front as my new rims are 7".    The standard 185 don't look good on them.

Quote from: mr2noob on May  9, 2021, 20:48

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  9, 2021, 12:23On the other hand, changing to a different strut brand or inserts like Koni,

KYB also make inserts. Are inserts just plug&play with OEM struts, I mean is it a simple job or possible to just take the old shocks out and replacing them with inserts?

The Koni are valved for the MR2.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI

Quote from: mr2noob on May  9, 2021, 21:28

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on May  9, 2021, 21:20

Quote from: mr2noob on May  9, 2021, 20:48

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  9, 2021, 12:23On the other hand, changing to a different strut brand or inserts like Koni,

KYB also make inserts. Are inserts just plug&play with OEM struts, I mean is it a simple job or possible to just take the old shocks out and replacing them with inserts?

The Koni are valved for the MR2.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI

Yup, but I was asking about the KYB inserts. ;)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kyb-363045/make/toyota/model/mr2
Or did KYB make inserts only for older models of MR2s?
Also, why do every year of Mk3 have different parts number for KYB struts? Did they seriously change the design every single year?

I'm puzzled.
Doesn't each corner have a different number, but the numbers are the same for each year - as per the table you posted?

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 21:42

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  8, 2021, 20:50

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

You're disappointed because (inspired by the many enthusiastic comments of other ROC members) you've taken your car in a particular direction, spent circa £400 in the process and the imagined great improvement failed to materialise.

Been there, done that.

In my case it was £423 spent on four tyres that INITIALLY made the car overall much less pleasant to drive.

(So I spent another circa £400 on the KYBs and Teins.......)

"theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc)"

Don't entirely agree there. If your struts are fairly good and you have no basis of comparison (such as back to back drives in a known 'good' MR2) then yes it is probably going to be fairly hard for most mere mortals to tell just how good.

But if they are bad it CAN be pretty obvious (as I have already mentioned earlier in this thread).

What have you gained so far?

1) Your suspension is now 'known good'

2) It will have improved, you just aren't feeling the benefit much yet.

So what (apart from an Alignment) might help you better feel the benefit?

Different tyres might.

(maybe on a second set of wheels / maybe next year ...)

PS3s are bound to be decent (no such thing as a truly bad Michelin) but it seems they aren't that stiff on the sidewall from reading around t'internet.

As Petrus and Dev have pointed out, this car was designed around a tyre with fairly stiff sidewalls. You now KNOW your dampers are good (which my experience with AD08Rs tells me is what stiff sidewall tyres seem to especially need).

Something stiffer than the PS3 could then take it more in line to how Toyota originally intended.

Found this an interesting read......

My bro and I had a track day @ Silverstone last Tuesday, we run nr. Identical Astra-G's Z22se with similar chassis mods - were a competitive family!!!

I have 2 sets of tyres, Michelin PS3 on standard rims & Dunlop DZ03G Semi-slicks on Supertourings.
My bro has only Yokohama AD08R on standard rims.
All tyres are nearly new in size 205/50R16.

Conditions were appox 7C, with a constant fine rain nearly all day.

I started with the Michelin's – thinking a proper road tyre with wet rating A will probably be quicker than the AD08 with wet rating B. WRONG!!! Yokohama's were quicker with much better turn-in and steering feel.


https://z22se.co.uk/threads/ad08r-vs-dz03g-vs-pilot-sport-3-moist-silverstone-gp.28841

@K T M Rider.
I said there was an improvement, just less than i expected from some of the comments posted. Overall it was worth doing, now knowing its all new and happy.

The turn in on the ps3s is far more responsive than the oem bridgestones i took off, so they are pretty good to me.

Also, its not exactly a shock that a track focused tyre was better in some 'light rain' than a road tyre. Wonder what it would have been like if it was really cold and heavy rain? The yoko would have been nowhere. Like i said previously, i got the ps3s because i know they will cope in all conditions (obviously not snow), and will manage a few laps on track now and again.

You have a better tyre in mind?

I did consider the new ad08rs, which has terrible reviews, so decided against that.

Might just keep my opinions to myself in future, much less hassle

Quote from: Iain on May 10, 2021, 19:20I said there was an improvement, just less than i expected from some of the comments posted. Overall it was worth doing.

The turn in on the ps3s is far more responsive than the oem bridgestones i took off, so they are pretty good to me.

You have a better tyre in mind?

The only other that came close was the new ad08rs, which has terrible reviews, so decided against that.

/quote]

You said previously that the PS3 feel ok to you, so that's good, & I hope nothing changes your mind, but I can't agree with your last line.

I looked again at tests & reports on the PS3, wondering if I should consider them. They aren't rated highly (passage of time I suppose) & they are still considerably more expensive than tyres rated above them.


Just as a by-the-by for anyone following this, The Kuhmo Ecsta HS51 has had a re-vamp (without any fanfare seemingly) & was rated very highly in a test, but only one test so far that I've read, & not as good in the wet as the Hankook K125.

Quote from: K T M Rider on May 10, 2021, 18:43

Quote from: Iain on May  8, 2021, 21:42

Quote from: Beachbum957 on May  8, 2021, 20:50

Quote from: shnazzle on May  8, 2021, 18:06Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

You're disappointed because (inspired by the many enthusiastic comments of other ROC members) you've taken your car in a particular direction, spent circa £400 in the process and the imagined great improvement failed to materialise.

Been there, done that.

In my case it was £423 spent on four tyres that INITIALLY made the car overall much less pleasant to drive.

(So I spent another circa £400 on the KYBs and Teins.......)

"theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc)"

Don't entirely agree there. If your struts are fairly good and you have no basis of comparison (such as back to back drives in a known 'good' MR2) then yes it is probably going to be fairly hard for most mere mortals to tell just how good.

But if they are bad it CAN be pretty obvious (as I have already mentioned earlier in this thread).

What have you gained so far?

1) Your suspension is now 'known good'

2) It will have improved, you just aren't feeling the benefit much yet.

So what (apart from an Alignment) might help you better feel the benefit?

Different tyres might.

(maybe on a second set of wheels / maybe next year ...)

PS3s are bound to be decent (no such thing as a truly bad Michelin) but it seems they aren't that stiff on the sidewall from reading around t'internet.

As Petrus and Dev have pointed out, this car was designed around a tyre with fairly stiff sidewalls. You now KNOW your dampers are good (which my experience with AD08Rs tells me is what stiff sidewall tyres seem to especially need).

Something stiffer than the PS3 could then take it more in line to how Toyota originally intended.

Found this an interesting read......

My bro and I had a track day @ Silverstone last Tuesday, we run nr. Identical Astra-G's Z22se with similar chassis mods - were a competitive family!!!

I have 2 sets of tyres, Michelin PS3 on standard rims & Dunlop DZ03G Semi-slicks on Supertourings.
My bro has only Yokohama AD08R on standard rims.
All tyres are nearly new in size 205/50R16.

Conditions were appox 7C, with a constant fine rain nearly all day.

I started with the Michelin's – thinking a proper road tyre with wet rating A will probably be quicker than the AD08 with wet rating B. WRONG!!! Yokohama's were quicker with much better turn-in and steering feel.


https://z22se.co.uk/threads/ad08r-vs-dz03g-vs-pilot-sport-3-moist-silverstone-gp.28841

I have found Bridgestones and Yokohama to be a better brand because they respect the sidewall stiffness in a good number of their products. Nothing against Michelin tires as I have used them before on other cars because they came new with them or used but if you ever wondered why they are not as popular in the enthusiast car communities its because they have a reputation of being overpriced for what they are when there are better cheaper options out there. It doesn't mean they are not good tires but they tend to not be very competitive and generally sold new with certain cars. 

As for the 2nd tier cheaper tiers they have made some very good advancements in being a very good value but what you get from a top tier tire is better feel at the limits even though it might not have ultimate grip.
They also seem to not heat cycle out as fast during its life.

/quote]

You said previously that the PS3 feel ok to you, so that's good, & I hope nothing changes your mind, but I can't agree with your last line.

I looked again at tests & reports on the PS3, wondering if I should consider them. They aren't rated highly (passage of time I suppose) & they are still considerably more expensive than tyres rated above them.


Just as a by-the-by for anyone following this, The Kuhmo Ecsta HS51 has had a re-vamp (without any fanfare seemingly) & was rated very highly in a test, but only one test so far that I've read, & not as good in the wet as the Hankook K125.
[/quote]

Ive had the likes of kuhmo, hankooks in the past, what id call mid range tyres. They're ok, but not for me.

I like Michelin tyres, ive have them on our 120d m sport and they are brilliant. Took off pirelli p zeros and they are miles in front of them, in my opinion of course.

Yes they are expensive, but you get what you pay for. In my experience (not just cars) that is very rarely wrong.

I dont read tyre reviews, (or car reviews for that matter). Its one persons opinion against another. I much prefer going off what ive had or learnt in the past, or what my local tyre dealer reccommends. They are very close friends, have been in the business for 35+ years and know the difference between an average and quality tyre.

Quote from: mr2noob on May 10, 2021, 20:03

Quote from: Iain on May 10, 2021, 19:20You have a better tyre in mind?

I did consider the new ad08rs, which has terrible reviews, so decided against that.

Personally, if I could go non-OEM sizes I would go for Nankang NS-2R, I've heard good things about it, Car Throttle even put them on their BMW 330d that they tuned to make through their track faster than an M3. Then again, I didn't have it myself, so can't give any personal experience info.

The OEM sizes is a whole other battle with tyres, and for me keeping stock rear was important. I went 195 up front to help make the balance just slighty more neutral and reduce understeer when on track.

I think the discussion has probably come to a natural end.
What's important here is to take into consideration all aspects of suspension and that diving into replacement of parts can lead to disappointment.

This applies to anything on here; it's all to help inform a decision but we should probably aim to stay away from cries like "night and day", "transformation". I've been guilty of this.