Hi all,
I've had a set of new front discs in stock for some time. They are good quality standard type discs -no holes or grooves, which is how I like them for the road.
I'm putting this query in this section, rather than 'Performance related', 'cos my MR s is not a track car and will probably never go anywhere near a track.
What I'm after is good, positive , yet progressive, braking, suitable for 'spirited' driving but not needing a bunch of heat to get them switched on.
I know it's asking for trouble asking a bunch of blokes for opinions.
This thread could go on awhile!
Thanks in advance.
@CarolynI believe one of our Members is in the business of brake pads and so may be able to offer some inside info.
The Member maybe
@Bossworld but it may not be!
They get a lot of hate but I really like the bite of the EBC yellows. Maybe they're not great for track but on road/fast road I've found them much better than Pagid, mtec, mintex or brembo.
Not cheap but they're not stupid money either.
.. If you can live with the brake dust... Which is other-worldly.
Quote from: Joesson on January 5, 2021, 16:25@Carolyn
I believe one of our Members is in the business of brake pads and so may be able to offer some inside info.
The Member maybe @Bossworld but it may not be!
@tommyzoom99
Quote from: shnazzle on January 5, 2021, 16:28@Carolyn
I believe one of our Members is in the business of brake pads and so may be able to offer some inside info.
@tommyzoom99
Then we have at least 2, - I know of someone else who hands-on makes them. He can contribute if he wishes.
Quote from: shnazzle on January 5, 2021, 16:28They get a lot of hate but I really like the bite of the EBC yellows. Maybe they're not great for track but on road/fast road I've found them much better than Pagid, mtec, mintex or brembo.
Not cheap but they're not stupid money either.
.. If you can live with the brake dust... Which is other-worldly.
Got yellows on mine and had no problems, work straight from cold and i had no issues on track either.
Totally agree about the brake dust, theres alot!
Quote from: Joesson on January 5, 2021, 16:25@Carolyn
I believe one of our Members is in the business of brake pads and so may be able to offer some inside info.
The Member maybe @Bossworld but it may not be!
Not me, I work in Training, but I absolutely love Brembo pads and they're not expensive.
Had Brembo front pads and Borg and Beck discs all around on my MR2 and they had superb bite. Have just bought the same combo for the Golf for circa £140 all around.
(https://i.ibb.co/PGmDWCb/896-E095-D-17-F1-457-B-B802-3-BF87953-EEF1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RTvj6HM)
Appreciate the juxtaposition in my combination based on that info graphic, but there's a marked difference between those listed brands and the real cheap crap like Comline and Quinton Hazel.
First time I changed mine, I went for standard EBC pads and plain discs and was very happy. Second time, I went for the much more expensive EBC yellowstuff pads with plain discs and I was very happy!
The yellowstuf pads come with a coating on that means that rather than having to bed them in, they feel phenomenal on the first drive. I put them on the 86 too and they were better than the previous ones on there too.
Never noticed any fade with any car I have owned (I dont like to brake!) and I would say they are worth trying to see what you think. There were about double the price of the standard EBC pads from memory.
One thing I will say on EBCs is to expect squeal,and it can last a good few hundred miles. But it has always gone away for me. 3rd set now and each time the same
Anyone tried Greenstuff?
Quote from: Carolyn on January 5, 2021, 18:43Anyone tried Greenstuff?
Not as good as yellow.
I think I would rather have Brembo or paggid than green.
Buy the yellow if you don't like them I'll have them.
Quote from: 1979scotte on January 5, 2021, 19:08Quote from: Carolyn on January 5, 2021, 18:43Anyone tried Greenstuff?
Not as good as yellow.
I think I would rather have Brembo or paggid than green.
Buy the yellow if you don't like them I'll have them.
Agree re green. I didn't like them on an Mx5. I don't think I've ever seen anybody praise them.
The Yellows have bite.
If you do consider Yellow Carolyn, wait for a 15 or 20% off on ebay, unless someone knows a cheaper source.
However it might be worth a read of newbie Adam Read's posts. I think I saw him mentioning Apec being good enough for track use.....
I've bought yellowstuff for the hillclimb car - mainly because they work from cold but I also bought standard new discs as opposed to the scored and / or drilled type - 100% pad on disc seems better in my tiny mind than disc, hole, score, disc, hole, score....... on these lightweight cars
Quote from: tets on January 5, 2021, 19:37I've bought yellowstuff for the hillclimb car - mainly because they work from cold but I also bought standard new discs as opposed to the scored and / or drilled type - 100% pad on disc seems better in my tiny mind than disc, hole, score, disc, hole, score....... on these lightweight cars
I prefer solid discs grooved drilled etc too noisy and more dusty imho.
Quote from: Gaz mr-s on January 5, 2021, 19:23Quote from: 1979scotte on January 5, 2021, 19:08Quote from: Carolyn on January 5, 2021, 18:43Anyone tried Greenstuff?
Not as good as yellow.
I think I would rather have Brembo or paggid than green.
Buy the yellow if you don't like them I'll have them.
Agree re green. I didn't like them on an Mx5. I don't think I've ever seen anybody praise them.
The Yellows have bite.
If you do consider Yellow Carolyn, wait for a 15 or 20% off on ebay, unless someone knows a cheaper source.
However it might be worth a read of newbie Adam Read's posts. I think I saw him mentioning Apec being good enough for track use.....
Second that on the greens, not sure what exactly is wrong with them but i also have never seen much or any praise for them.
EBC bluestuff are a bargain at £70 for fronts, much better than yellows, but in all honesty a set of OE Pagid pads would do the job for your needs.
Quote from: JB21 on January 5, 2021, 21:23EBC bluestuff are a bargain at £70 for fronts, much better than yellows, but in all honesty a set of OE Pagid pads would do the job for your needs.
Last year I paid under £47 for Yellows
Quote from: JB21 on January 5, 2021, 21:23EBC bluestuff are a bargain at £70 for fronts, much better than yellows, but in all honesty a set of OE Pagid pads would do the job for your needs.
I have Pagid discs and pads and they work fine for spirited road driving
Rob
I expect this will be ignored like on every forum I mention it, but I'll say it anyway... Try some Apec.
No, really. I've found them better than EBC Yellows and Mintex 1144s (have also used both) at less than half the price. Had some EBC Greens and they were awful, fell off the backings. Yellows don't work any better than a good road pad, and wear very fast once you get them above 600 degrees.
Have won sprint and 12 hour endurance races on the Apec pads (Mk1 MX5), done loads of track days, but still fit them to all my road cars too as they work from cold, last well, have good feel, don't squeal, are R90 approved, and very cheap. A little bit dusty but no worse than 'performance' pads.
Other pads used: Ferodo DS2500, 1.11s, DS.Uno, Carbone Lorraine RC5, RC6, Mintex 1155, Wilwood Poly A - still keep fitting the Apecs.
Quote from: AdamR28 on January 5, 2021, 22:29I expect this will be ignored like on every forum I mention it, but I'll say it anyway... Try some Apec.
No, really. Better than EBC Yellows and Mintex 1144s at less than half the price.
Have won 12 hour endurance races on these pads, done loads of track days, they work from cold, last pretty well, good feel, don't squeal, R90 approved, very cheap. A little bit dusty but no worse than 'performance' pads.
Too late for me since I have 2 sets of Yellows, but is there a model no' for them
@AdamR28
Not sure sure if I'm not driving hard enough.
But I'm happy as Larry with stock pagid discs n pads.
I press the middle pedal and I stop.
Just a B road boy, not a track monster.
Quote from: AdamR28 on January 5, 2021, 22:29I expect this will be ignored like on every forum I mention it, but I'll say it anyway... Try some Apec.
A little bit dusty but no worse than 'performance' pads.
How dusty in comparison to Yellows?
Quote from: Ardent on January 5, 2021, 22:36Not sure sure if I'm not driving hard enough.
But I'm happy as Larry with stock pagid discs n pads.
I press the middle pedal and I stop.
Just a B road boy, not a track monster.
I also like the stock pads and blank rotors when I had it this way. They give you great modulation for the street with minimum dust. The dust from some of the more exotic pads is highly corrosive to the finish on the wheels. I used the TRD pads once and didn't like them because they had too much bite that it would go from 60% to full ABS lock up.
Now that I run a four piston calipers up front I use a low dust street pad that feels great like the stock pads but with better feel through the range without tripping abruptly into ABS.
Apec part no
Screenshot_20210106-072734_Chrome.jpg
Full set delivered from eBay under £50
Quote from: AdamR28 on January 5, 2021, 22:29I expect this will be ignored like on every forum I mention it, but I'll say it anyway... Try some Apec.
No, really. I've found them better than EBC Yellows and Mintex 1144s (have also used both) at less than half the price. Had some EBC Greens and they were awful, fell off the backings. Yellows don't work any better than a good road pad, and wear very fast once you get them above 600 degrees.
Have won sprint and 12 hour endurance races on the Apec pads (Mk1 MX5), done loads of track days, but still fit them to all my road cars too as they work from cold, last well, have good feel, don't squeal, are R90 approved, and very cheap. A little bit dusty but no worse than 'performance' pads.
Other pads used: Ferodo DS2500, 1.11s, DS.Uno, Carbone Lorraine RC5, RC6, Mintex 1155, Wilwood Poly A - still keep fitting the Apecs.
I'll give the Apec a go I think, should be good in the colder months on road tyres I reckon. Not sure how they'll hold up using AR1's/slicks in summer but for the price they're 100% worth a try.
I've also tried all the above pads, inc DS3000, XP8's and every OE pad going. I found the DS1.11 the best all-rounder in terms of performance but they are very expensive. The worst pad I've used is OE Brembo, absolute garbage.
Quote from: JB21 on January 6, 2021, 08:07I'll give the Apec a go I think, should be good in the colder months on road tyres I reckon. Not sure how they'll hold up using AR1's/slicks in summer but for the price they're 100% worth a try.
I think you'll be just about ok under those conditions, my experiences are with standard power and weight.
Quote from: Gaz mr-s on January 5, 2021, 22:49How dusty in comparison to Yellows?
About the same IME.
I opted for Brembos.
Don´t want initial bit on the road, nor overkill braking power making tricky slippery real world road conditions more tricky still.
After all OEM pads are quite powerful enough to challenge the abs.
I dó want the brakes to be linear for max. modulation.
So, start the car, press the brake a few times and no more worries.
They are wonderfully linear and dump very little dust on rims/calipers.
Quote from: Petrus on January 6, 2021, 09:16I opted for Brembos.
Don´t want initial bit on the road, nor overkill braking power making tricky slippery real world road conditions more tricky still.
After all OEM pads are quite powerful enough to challenge the abs.
I dó want the brakes to be linear for max. modulation.
So, start the car, press the brake a few times and no more worries.
They are wonderfully linear and dump very little dust on rims/calipers.
Those are the qualities I'm after.
No idea if it is true or not, but I have read online that brembo do not manufacture their own brake pads.
If this is the case then they are rebranded from someone else which doesnt mean they will not work, just that you will be paying more for them than buying from the manufacturer direct. Of course, you have to know who the manufacturer is that they use if you want the qualities of the brembo!
If you can get the apecs for £50 though, that seems like a great price for pads recommended by someone who has tried a lot of other ones?
Quote from: Topdownman on January 6, 2021, 11:04No idea if it is true or not, but I have read online that brembo do not manufacture their own brake pads.
If this is the case then they are rebranded from someone else which doesnt mean they will not work, just that you will be paying more for them than buying from the manufacturer direct. Of course, you have to know who the manufacturer is that they use if you want the qualities of the brembo!
If you can get the apecs for £50 though, that seems like a great price for pads recommended by someone who has tried a lot of other ones?
Yes but, no but: Adam's recommendation is based on track use and I'm not really interested in what works well on track.(Though I'm sure he know swhat he's talking about).
I don't want 'bite' or 'grab' I want progressive linear but good braking performance. These pads will be strictly for road use.
Fair enough! I am sure any standard pad will be fine then. I think having the calipers working properly (as I am sure yours do) is the key.
When I dropped my car off for the engine conversion it had new plain discs, standard EBC pads, reconditioned rear calipers and rebuilt fronts (and braided lines) recently fitted and the garage asked what sort of brakes I had fitted as they were so good!
Quote from: Carolyn on January 6, 2021, 11:25I don't want 'bite' or 'grab' I want progressive linear but good braking performance. These pads will be strictly for road use.
That sounds like the pagid combo to me.
I'm sure ive got a spare front set of used yellowstuff pads you can have if you want to try them out. I really find them poor though. No bite when cold and really poor coefficient. You can actually feel them compressing under your foot when hard on the brakes.
Quote from: JB21 on January 6, 2021, 13:10I'm sure ive got a spare front set of used yellowstuff pads you can have if you want to try them out. I really find them poor though. No bite when cold and really poor coefficient. You can actually feel them compressing under your foot when hard on the brakes.
That's very kind of you, but I'm well convinced that Yellowstuff are not the ones for me already!
Quote from: Carolyn on January 6, 2021, 13:25Quote from: JB21 on January 6, 2021, 13:10I'm sure ive got a spare front set of used yellowstuff pads you can have if you want to try them out. I really find them poor though. No bite when cold and really poor coefficient. You can actually feel them compressing under your foot when hard on the brakes.
That's very kind of you, but I'm well convinced that Yellowstuff are not the ones for me already!
Haha, good choice.
Fit any road based pad in that case, I would say. Defo not EBC Yellows.
I just like the Apec because they also work on track (proving they are up to the job of 'spirited' driving too) and are cheap as chips.
Any good quality oem spec will be fine just pick the brand you like the sound or name of they are all much of a muchness R90 approval dictates they need to be :D avoid EBC greenstuff they are often worse than normal oem spec pads! pretty colour though :)
The Apec pads Adam mentions are just that normal oem spec road pads and UK made so worth a go :), they are not track pads but i can see how comments above make you think that, its just Adams driving style means he can make them work for him on track :D
A problem with initial bite, regardsless which use, lies with the front tyres only.
Load transfer to the front under braking gives those front tyres extra grip.
Because of the flexible nature of suspension, this is not instantanious.
Initial bite occurs before the weight transfer has loaded the front springs.
The tyre can easily be over the traction curve and it can seriously mess up corner entry if not enough traction is left or steering.
On motorbikes this is THÉ cause of losing the front end under braking/corner entry; too much braking before the front end had loaded.
That is a bit easier to understand hence the example but is it exactly the same in cars.
I just ask my local motor factors for pads or whatever n have never had any bother or wrong parts etc. Just changed pads n find they are apex and are fine for my use so I can't see the reason for specifying some expensive brand.
They stop when I want, activate abs when needed ( not that it is) so are fine. Although this is for general road use. If out on the street and you rely on expensive brake pads to stop you when hammering into a corner or junction, then please don't come my way ! As said many times before, the std brakes are fine for the car.
Quote from: Mr2paul on January 6, 2021, 18:42activate abs when needed ( not that it is)
The abs can be (a)bused to increase active understanding of better braking by using load transfer.
Although it cán be used to enter a corner from higher speed it, better braking, is about sáfer driving regardless of the speed and circumstances.
The brakes are quite powerfull enough to lock up the front, activating the ABS but when it does, the tyres are over their traction limits.
Second fact is that with more load, the front tyres get more max. traction availeble.
Let´s test it.
Driving say 40 - 50 km/h on average dry tarmac EMPTY! road, slam the brakes quickly.
Repeat same speed, same spot, now actuate the brake in a controlled manner, building up the force.
Typically in the first situation the brakes are full on before any load shift forward and the abs clearly needs to assist stopping the car and this limits the load transfer.
In the second instance the extra load transferring to the front allows for wáy more grip thus decelleration without the abs stepping in.
The Spyder has véry good brakes and using the load transfer to your (and other road users´) advantage allows áwesomely short stopping distances while maintaining safe control.
Although I agree that race pads are not required for the street there are differences with many normal pads choices.
A good street pad is very different and its not about braking force. Most pads will lock up the wheels just fine unless you are running very sticky rubber.
Many race pads (not all) require some heat in them before they perform which will consistently get cooled on the street before the next braking event. Along with the dust, noise and other quirky behavior of needing to be re-bed no thanks. These pads were made for endurance and high coefficient of friction that is not seen on the street, same with upgrading the brake fluid which is also not a good idea.
In the normal pad category semi-metialic are nice but they are not as progressive as regular organic pads for this car and can be too aggressive.
Avoid ceramic pads as they were made for general passenger use to last a long time. They do not have a good braking feel because they are too hard.
Toyota organic pads have in my opinion have the right coefficient of friction and characteristics for street use. They are soft and have consistent linear braking feel that allows you to scrub off speed precisely.
For the street its about braking feel, not how fast the brakes lock up the tires. As with the suspension a positive feeling in the brakes like the rest of the handling control adds to enjoyment of driving even if you are going slow.
As said, why this has got side tracked into racing pads I do not no.
My point being that I don't scream into corners on our streets and APEC perform fine so I can't see the need for Carolyn to want different as she is not racing or a mad driver. If somebody on the street wants to pay double or more to say I have X , that is their choice n no dis respect to them. It is their wallet after all.
It beggars the question that if people want silly expensiv pads to stop them in time, why don't we see twin pot calipers mentioned ?? It's a honest genuine question to all that feel that Oem is not adequate for the road is it not ?
I think Carolyn will be laughing her socks off by now. It was a loaded question n Carolyn knows the pads she wants unless she's just gone bonkers ! 😊
Quote from: Mr2paul on January 6, 2021, 20:30As said, why this has got side tracked into racing pads I do not no.
My point being that I don't scream into corners on our streets and APEC perform fine so I can't see the need for Carolyn to want different as she is not racing or a mad driver. If somebody on the street wants to pay double or more to say I have X , that is their choice n no dis respect to them. It is their wallet after all.
It beggars the question that if people want silly expensiv pads to stop them in time, why don't we see twin pot calipers mentioned ?? It's a honest genuine question to all that feel that Oem is not adequate for the road is it not ?
I use a four pot for the street. The brake swept area is the same as the OEM calipers. There is no real difference in the clamping force between my calipers and the OEM which is important to maintain the same brake bias. The reason why I went though the trouble is for less unsprung weight and to have four smaller pistons instead of one big floating piston for consistent even pressure on the brake pad. This increases the brake modulation and overall feel which I enjoy.
I don't drive unsafe but even driving at low speeds coming to an intersection and slowing down the brakes feel phenomenal all the time. I would say I enjoy the brakes just as much as I enjoy the accelerator which I also modified
That's good for you then. You found the stock brakes inadequate for your braking needs Hence the 4 pots ? I obviously don't no yr driving style but over here it's got to be steady away. Safety is paramount which is why we have mot tests.
Half my combo for the Golf has arrived, just waiting on the discs to come back into stock. As above ran the same on the MR2 with good feel through the pedal.
(https://i.ibb.co/MSxWqqn/27-BE9-FBC-2974-4522-A2-AD-4175-E63-A49-FD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/54gtqqT)
Anyone actually done the research on prices/brands direct from Toyota? The front discs are the same as the Yaris Verso so presumably cheaper if not limited to just MR2s
Details n price would be good as well as your experience with these would be very interesting. I take it is for the awesome gti ?
Quote from: Mr2paul on January 6, 2021, 20:30It beggars the question that if people want silly expensiv pads to stop them in time, why don't we see twin pot calipers mentioned ?? It's a honest genuine question to all that feel that Oem is not adequate for the road is it not ?
The OEM brakes are quite good. Even for silly driving.
I would neverthelees lóve to go twin pots for two reasons:
- less play; both on the sliding caliper and the piston
- unsprung weight
Homologations rules prevent me.
So keep enjoying the simple véry good OEM brakes.
Fitted four braided lines because ... well, simply because and found that this is superfluous as the OEM lines are simply véry good.
Anyway, the red thread is clear.
Just óne thing to: Íf you can, try stick with a match of manufacturer of disc and pad. Thus OEM disc, OEM pads, Pagid discs then ditto pads etc. It´s not a must but it does ensure a good match.
Quote from: Mr2paul on January 6, 2021, 21:31That's good for you then. You found the stock brakes inadequate for your braking needs Hence the 4 pots ? I obviously don't no yr driving style but over here it's got to be steady away. Safety is paramount which is why we have mot tests.
The stock brakes are more than adequate and I have maintained the opinion against racing pads for the street. I have four pots for better braking feel on the street even at low speed driving but that is not the primary reason for doing it. I was after reducing the unsprung weight by 9lbs which is significant.
Quote from: Petrus on January 6, 2021, 21:53Quote from: Mr2paul on January 6, 2021, 20:30It beggars the question that if people want silly expensiv pads to stop them in time, why don't we see twin pot calipers mentioned ?? It's a honest genuine question to all that feel that Oem is not adequate for the road is it not ?
The OEM brakes are quite good. Even for silly driving.
I would neverthelees lóve to go twin pots for two reasons:
- less play; both on the sliding caliper and the piston
- unsprung weight
Homologations rules prevent me.
Thats too bad. You would really love them because its something you feel all the time not just performance driving. The refinement in the pedal is just superb.
Braking feel is one of the first things I observe when I test drive any car. Some cars are just lousy.
... She only asked what pads to get :)
Next time I think I'll just reply "OEM" and lock the thread.
It's an MR2 for crying out loud with old Yaris parts bin brakes.
I only said Yellowstuff because I like the bite of them. OEM are absolutely fine.
I swore by ebay specials for 165gbp for discs and pads for all 4 corners for years. Absolutely peachy.