Well, I've finally found a moment to lift the rear and take a butchers at the underside of the engine bay/Subframe area. I'll try and post a picture or to later, for you to critique 😉.
What is the usual treatment recommended to preserve an original sub frame to prolong its life as much as possible? My first thoughts were to rub her down treat any rust with a neutraliser and paint with maybe red oxide primer then black waxoyl underseal, any thoughts on this please?
@Carolyn will be along shortly to offer advice but it needs filling.
They rot from the inside.
As Scotte insists:
I did a lot of research on this. One thing I discovered is that our American Cousins don't have so much of a rust problem as we do. Even the Canadians, with their severe winters get off better than us. They use white road salt. (bear with me...).
The subframes rot because road filth, including our very corrosive red phosphate-laden salt, gets in through the open top corners. So does water. That powerful electrolytic mixture sits in the bottom of the subframe,. Now we put a 'Bunsen burner' underneath in the form of the exhaust. If you remember high school chemistry, heat speeds up chemical reactions.
The result is a hole in the subframe.
My solution is to remove some of the rubber bungs and wash it out with plenty of water. Let it dry and pour in a good dollop of Waxyoil (taking care to first replace bungs under the bottom and to tape over the little drain holes that are hidden under the suspension attachment points So the Waxyoil doesn't run straight out. Take a good quality sealant and seal up the four open corners.
Rust requires oxygen and water. Keep those out and it can't rust.
I prefer to do the exterior by removing and treating any rust, painting with zinc primer and then a good hard top coat. I'm not a fan of sticky goopy stuff all over the bottom of the car. but that's only a personal preference.
I was going to say exactly the same.
;)
Quote from: Ardent on July 18, 2021, 17:49I was going to say exactly the same.
;)
Me too. Word for word.
I will attempt to upload some photos here. Bear with me as these are my first attempts..
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51320242338_189ea8d71b_m.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51320038781_12bee6f20f_m.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51320039046_0f98b16faf_m.jpg
Ok so could someone please advise how I get them to show in message straight away?
How does the condition of this subframe look to members please, I thought it wasn't too bad but I cant guage it really?
The displaying is basically taking your links and wrapping them in the img tags
When posting. Get your link that ends jpeg, click the insert pic icon and paste the link.
Easy to show not so to type.
Re the sub.
Looks good from here.
If not the full Carolyn option. You could opt for some bilt hamber dynax S50.
Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
Quote from: Bossworld on July 18, 2021, 23:16Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
Thanks, ill take a look again tomorrow.
Quote from: Bossworld on July 18, 2021, 23:16Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
That's what I was going to say, it's the bit there that's the major issue, the rest may look fine.
Mine looked very similar to that. I had the hole above the cat, but not too difficult to cut out and weld a patch in. Thats if you have a welder, they come in very handy and the hobby ones are not too expensive.
Cleaned, rust treated and painted mine on the outside, and i have a can of the bilt hamber stuff waiting to go on the inside.
Quote from: Bossworld on July 18, 2021, 23:16Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on July 18, 2021, 23:32Quote from: Bossworld on July 18, 2021, 23:16Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
Thanks, ill take a look again tomorrow.
Here's a couple of pictures showing subframe just behind the main cat, is this the weak spot? IMG_20210719_084612.jpgIMG_20210719_084551.jpgIMG_20210719_084532.jpg
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on July 19, 2021, 08:56Quote from: Bossworld on July 18, 2021, 23:16Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on July 18, 2021, 23:32Quote from: Bossworld on July 18, 2021, 23:16Doesn't look bad at all, what's it like directly above the catalytic converter?
Thanks, ill take a look again tomorrow.
Here's a couple of pictures showing subframe just behind the main cat, is this the weak spot? IMG_20210719_084612.jpgIMG_20210719_084551.jpgIMG_20210719_084532.jpg
That's the nearside (passenger side) one it's the off-side one that has the bother, where the cat passes under the subframe.
Am I any "warmer"? IMG_20210719_093143.jpgIMG_20210719_093205.jpgIMG_20210719_093228.jpg
I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
About time!
I was wondering why no one ever comes up with an aftermarket one...alu or steel!
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on July 19, 2021, 09:41Am I any "warmer"?
Pic 1 is the one....strangely unmarked...not sure I've ever seen one as good. It doesn't look pretty elsewhere, but looks just surface.
I used Bilt Hamber Dynax on the inside & painted external with black Por15. Some folk paint it with a 'louder' colour, - can work...
Some advocate spraying a rust converter inside. Take your pick.
Could anyone in the know give me a quick rundown on the differences between the pre- and post facelift ones? Would an aftermarket subframe based on the post-facelift one work on all cars?
Trouble with waxoil is that it only works on new and unpolluted surfaces. On rust it dries out to a wax which is waterproof and traps any salt and residual water underneath causing a big problem. Best solution is to spray with hot soapy water inside and out after removing all the bungs then dry out with a good hot engine and run. Next put the bottom bungs in and fill with gear oil. Then spray the outside with gear oil. Drain and dry off as much as possible with a fluffy towel. Oil does not dry out and keeps all those little corrosion holes in the metal filled. Leave the bungs out. I've been fighting rust since about 1960. Ought to be a law against it. Saved the rusty brake pipes and sills on my 1995 Land Cruiser with above method. No new corrosion for years now.
My MR2 cross member is very rusty outside but clean on the inside.
Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 09:45I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
I remember seeing a "one off" on Spyderchat. As I see it Insurers may be reluctant to accept such an element. More fundamental is the cost and availability, currently around £350 the UK with availability unknown.
Quote from: Frank Rabbets on July 19, 2021, 10:51Trouble with waxoil is that it only works on new and unpolluted surfaces. On rust it dries out to a wax which is waterproof and traps any salt and residual water underneath causing a big problem. Best solution is to spray with hot soapy water inside and out after removing all the bungs then dry out with a good hot engine and run. Next put the bottom bungs in and fill with gear oil. Then spray the outside with gear oil. Drain and dry off as much as possible with a fluffy towel. Oil does not dry out and keeps all those little corrosion holes in the metal filled. Leave the bungs out. I've been fighting rust since about 1960. Ought to be a law against it. Saved the rusty brake pipes and sills on my 1995 Land Cruiser with above method. No new corrosion for years now.
My MR2 cross member is very rusty outside but clean on the inside.
The other" problem" with Waxoyl is that itneed s to be warmed up for application and consequently when the weather is warm it softens and can drip.
Spraying the underside of cars with various oils, preused and otherwise, for underbody protection was something offered in the days of leaf springs. Gear oil would not be my choice of a travelling companion in these days of more advanced chemistry.
As others have mentioned, Bilt Hamber is a Company that has specialised in combating corrosion with seemingly good reviews and was my choice.
As with all things though, preparation is key and sloshing what ever onto visibly loose corrosion and flakey paint is not the way to do it.
Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 09:45I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
I think while replacements are still available from Toyota it's unlikely to be cost effective. The other unknown is how long the replacement Toyota items last - presumably if the stock one has managed 15+ years on most cars, another 15 years will see the bulk of the cars into the breakers' yards anyway?
Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 09:45I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
I think thats a great idea. I reckon a great many owners would be interested and, at some point, we may all need a replacement.
Quote from: Bossworld on July 19, 2021, 12:41Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 09:45I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
I think while replacements are still available from Toyota it's unlikely to be cost effective. The other unknown is how long the replacement Toyota items last - presumably if the stock one has managed 15+ years on most cars, another 15 years will see the bulk of the cars into the breakers' yards anyway?
My 06 that I bought in 2014 needed welding so if you get an uncared for example they don't last long.
Quote from: Bossworld on July 19, 2021, 12:41Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 09:45I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
I think while replacements are still available from Toyota it's unlikely to be cost effective. The other unknown is how long the replacement Toyota items last - presumably if the stock one has managed 15+ years on most cars, another 15 years will see the bulk of the cars into the breakers' yards anyway?
Succinct!
Maybe a little longer as there is now an increasing awareness of this problem area and perhaps a willingness to preserve the model.
Quote from: Joesson on July 19, 2021, 11:40Quote from: Frank Rabbets on July 19, 2021, 10:51Trouble with waxoil is that it only works on new and unpolluted surfaces. On rust it dries out to a wax which is waterproof and traps any salt and residual water underneath causing a big problem. Best solution is to spray with hot soapy water inside and out after removing all the bungs then dry out with a good hot engine and run. Next put the bottom bungs in and fill with gear oil. Then spray the outside with gear oil. Drain and dry off as much as possible with a fluffy towel. Oil does not dry out and keeps all those little corrosion holes in the metal filled. Leave the bungs out. I've been fighting rust since about 1960. Ought to be a law against it. Saved the rusty brake pipes and sills on my 1995 Land Cruiser with above method. No new corrosion for years now.
My MR2 cross member is very rusty outside but clean on the inside.
The other" problem" with Waxoyl is that itneed s to be warmed up for application and consequently when the weather is warm it softens and can drip.
Spraying the underside of cars with various oils, preused and otherwise, for underbody protection was something offered in the days of leaf springs. Gear oil would not be my choice of a travelling companion in these days of more advanced chemistry.
As others have mentioned, Bilt Hamber is a Company that has specialised in combating corrosion with seemingly good reviews and was my choice.
As with all things though, preparation is key and sloshing what ever onto visibly loose corrosion and flakey paint is not the way to do it.
From experience if you use waxoyl on a turbo 2 you soon won't have any waxoyl left.
Quote from: 1979scotte on July 19, 2021, 13:46Quote from: Bossworld on July 19, 2021, 12:41Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 09:45I have an idea: Perhaps I could make aftermarket tubular steel rear subframes, seeing as the OEM ones are prone to rust out. Would any of you be interested in those? It would take a bit to develop, but might be worth a try.
I think while replacements are still available from Toyota it's unlikely to be cost effective. The other unknown is how long the replacement Toyota items last - presumably if the stock one has managed 15+ years on most cars, another 15 years will see the bulk of the cars into the breakers' yards anyway?
My 06 that I bought in 2014 needed welding so if you get an uncared for example they don't last long.
I guess my point being mate that if you're going to the effort of changing it for a new one, you're likely to do the preservation techniques listed here at the same time.
To your point though, whether many cars should still be on their original subframe at this moment in time, is a scary thought.
Quote from: Snelbaard on July 19, 2021, 10:02Could anyone in the know give me a quick rundown on the differences between the pre- and post facelift ones? Would an aftermarket subframe based on the post-facelift one work on all cars?
An FL Sub will fit/work on a PFL car, but not the reverse.
Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll give it a think.
https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/mr2-roadster-rear-subframe-genuine-toyota
Saw this just now, is this a good price,£323, for a brand new subframe?
I'd say that price is spot on.
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 10, 2021, 22:04https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/mr2-roadster-rear-subframe-genuine-toyota
Saw this just now, is this a good price,£323, for a brand new subframe?
I'd call Paul at TCB and see what price he can do.
Quote from: 1979scotte on August 10, 2021, 22:16Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 10, 2021, 22:04https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/mr2-roadster-rear-subframe-genuine-toyota
Saw this just now, is this a good price,£323, for a brand new subframe?
I'd call Paul at TCB and see what price he can do.
Thank you , I will.
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 10, 2021, 22:04https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/mr2-roadster-rear-subframe-genuine-toyota
Saw this just now, is this a good price,£323, for a brand new subframe?
I bought one from Paul Pridham in June for £263. He's a forum sponsor too.
For a new one? That's a good price.
Quote from: Chilli Girl on August 11, 2021, 10:52For a new one? That's a good price.
Brand new and shiny :D
Came next day too.
I bought one off eBay a couple weeks ago - brand new £199 + £26 postage. I think seller had more than one as well.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BTFNFWVyPT7zGMxpEXAbG_ZDLWYgM0Rewyn1siePKHUdhM-CEkUypdzMqVlS5tpNTNXwZGKWxXdUDPY64fm4mo2esZgQNklhpAMF2Sf98cpA6gi8NdsPJ1LPUohbsufM2CQia2aU7A=w2400)
Just tucked away for now!
Quote from: The Other Stu on August 11, 2021, 09:37Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 10, 2021, 22:04https://gt4-play.co.uk/shop/mr2-roadster-rear-subframe-genuine-toyota
Saw this just now, is this a good price,£323, for a brand new subframe?
I bought one from Paul Pridham in June for £263. He's a forum sponsor too.
Just ordered one from Paul, might fit it over the winter, but might acquire new arbs and new bushes first... 😎
If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 11:57If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
It's the inside you need to worry about
Quote from: 1979scotte on August 25, 2021, 12:38Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 11:57If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
It's the inside you need to worry about
Absolutely, Bilt Hamber stuff will be going inside, just not sure if its worth getting the subframe powder coated or would a thorough paint job be the better option?
Quote from: ManInDandism on August 11, 2021, 21:42I bought one off eBay a couple weeks ago - brand new £199 + £26 postage. I think seller had more than one as well.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BTFNFWVyPT7zGMxpEXAbG_ZDLWYgM0Rewyn1siePKHUdhM-CEkUypdzMqVlS5tpNTNXwZGKWxXdUDPY64fm4mo2esZgQNklhpAMF2Sf98cpA6gi8NdsPJ1LPUohbsufM2CQia2aU7A=w2400)
Just tucked away for now!
That's a very good price!
Do you have the seller's name?
Cheers.
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 17:05Quote from: 1979scotte on August 25, 2021, 12:38Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 11:57If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
It's the inside you need to worry about
Absolutely, Bilt Hamber stuff will be going inside, just not sure if its worth getting the subframe powder coated or would a thorough paint job be the better option?
I think the latter is still worth doing. I put two coats of Hammerite smooth black on both cars I've had a replacement subframe on, the factory powdercoat didn't seem particularly great
Quote from: Bossworld on August 26, 2021, 09:01Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 17:05Quote from: 1979scotte on August 25, 2021, 12:38Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 11:57If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
Thanks, I was thinking about using hammerite. Did you seal up the 4 Corner holes as well or leave them to allow any inside moisture to dry naturally?
It's the inside you need to worry about
Absolutely, Bilt Hamber stuff will be going inside, just not sure if its worth getting the subframe powder coated or would a thorough paint job be the better option?
I think the latter is still worth doing. I put two coats of Hammerite smooth black on both cars I've had a replacement subframe on, the factory powdercoat didn't seem particularly great
Thanks, I'll probably hammerite too. Did you seal the subframe holes in the corners or leave them as vents to dry any moisture that might occur inside?
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 26, 2021, 09:08Quote from: Bossworld on August 26, 2021, 09:01Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 17:05Quote from: 1979scotte on August 25, 2021, 12:38Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 11:57If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
Thanks, I was thinking about using hammerite. Did you seal up the 4 Corner holes as well or leave them to allow any inside moisture to dry naturally?
It's the inside you need to worry about
Absolutely, Bilt Hamber stuff will be going inside, just not sure if its worth getting the subframe powder coated or would a thorough paint job be the better option?
I think the latter is still worth doing. I put two coats of Hammerite smooth black on both cars I've had a replacement subframe on, the factory powdercoat didn't seem particularly great
Thanks, I'll probably hammerite too. Did you seal the subframe holes in the corners or leave them as vents to dry any moisture that might occur inside?
I didn't seal it, I have seen the various posts afterwards (and get the logic) but I had a mechanic fit my subframe after I'd painted it up (I sprayed cavity wax over it and into it too; whether that will have made any long term difference once up to temp, I'm unsure).
At the time I wasn't as mechanically minded (and I got taken to the cleaners as a result) but I'd go back to my other point about longevity of the car itself, I reckon a replacement subframe will probably outlive most MR2s.
Quote from: J88TEO on August 25, 2021, 21:51Quote from: ManInDandism on August 11, 2021, 21:42I bought one off eBay a couple weeks ago - brand new £199 + £26 postage. I think seller had more than one as well.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BTFNFWVyPT7zGMxpEXAbG_ZDLWYgM0Rewyn1siePKHUdhM-CEkUypdzMqVlS5tpNTNXwZGKWxXdUDPY64fm4mo2esZgQNklhpAMF2Sf98cpA6gi8NdsPJ1LPUohbsufM2CQia2aU7A=w2400)
Just tucked away for now!
That's a very good price!
Do you have the seller's name?
Cheers.
mr.blue-skies (https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/blueskiestrading)
Just seems to sell an assortment of car parts for loads of different marques and models.
Thanks.
Quote from: Bossworld on August 26, 2021, 09:01Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 17:05Quote from: 1979scotte on August 25, 2021, 12:38Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on August 25, 2021, 11:57If replacing a subframe with a new one would members recommend pre painting or powder coating before fitting? Powder coating sounds better but then I guess not easily repaired if scratched or damaged, any thoughts?
It's the inside you need to worry about
Absolutely, Bilt Hamber stuff will be going inside, just not sure if its worth getting the subframe powder coated or would a thorough paint job be the better option?
I think the latter is still worth doing. I put two coats of Hammerite smooth black on both cars I've had a replacement subframe on, the factory powdercoat didn't seem particularly great
Just starting to think about the upcoming subframe replacement I have planned and was wondering if you sprayed or brushed the hammerite please? I think I'll be painting before fitting, brushing will no doubt give a thicker coat but spray will be neater, any preferences?
I brushed mine. 2 coats.
@BARNPOT2000 I would certainly paint before fitting. If you have yet to buy the paint I suggest you consider Rustoleum products, these are available to brush / roller or spray and claim to kill rust. I rolled and brushed two coats on our South facing garden railings, after careful preparation, in the summer of 2019,no brush marks and no signs of deterioration.
(Ancient posts of mine will indicate my dislike for Hammerite products).
Also brushed on two coats.
Recently wire brushed down and spray painted (Hammerite) some brake shields for the Golf. Car lives in the garage but they look worse than before, the spray paint version just doesn't apply as well as the tin
Quote from: Bossworld on November 15, 2021, 19:55Also brushed on two coats.
Recently wire brushed down and spray painted (Hammerite) some brake shields for the Golf. Car lives in the garage but they look worse than before, the spray paint version just doesn't apply as well as the tin
So interesting, I've been sceptical about hamerite generally but didn't realise brush painted was so dentramental.
Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on November 15, 2021, 21:27Quote from: Bossworld on November 15, 2021, 19:55Also brushed on two coats.
Recently wire brushed down and spray painted (Hammerite) some brake shields for the Golf. Car lives in the garage but they look worse than before, the spray paint version just doesn't apply as well as the tin
So interesting, I've been sceptical about hamerite generally but didn't realise brush painted was so dentramental.
Just for clarity mate I've no issues with two MR2 subframes I hand applied two coats with a brush.
It was some brake disc backing plates that I spray painted (with Hammeritr spray) that look worse for wear
Quote from: Bossworld on November 15, 2021, 21:53Quote from: BARNPOT2000 on November 15, 2021, 21:27Quote from: Bossworld on November 15, 2021, 19:55Also brushed on two coats.
Recently wire brushed down and spray painted (Hammerite) some brake shields for the Golf. Car lives in the garage but they look worse than before, the spray paint version just doesn't apply as well as the tin
So interesting, I've been sceptical about hamerite generally but didn't realise brush painted was so dentramental.
Just for clarity mate I've no issues with two MR2 subframes I hand applied two coats with a brush.
It was some brake disc backing plates that I spray painted (with Hammeritr spray) that look worse for wear
Aah! Sorry my mistake, so brushing is probably the way to go, thanks.