MR2 Roadster Owners Club

I seen this yesterday. Im not saying that the dyno is correct or the information is correct but it is interesting that someone did this. 
 When we say that intakes do not matter and the stock one is best that is true only because most of the aftermarket intakes are not calibrated and will under report the amount if air making the car run lean.
 
 For my 2ZZ I have a calibrated MAF tube with vanes that fixes many of the issues with cheaper intakes especially at part throttle and the power was noticeable. 
 The reason why the OEM intake for the 1ZZ works well is primarily because of the vanes. If someone designed a proper calibrated intake there would be benefits.
 
I know of some members that tried to make their own 3D printed intakes with vanes after I brought it to their attention but I warned them that you cant simply eye ball it and add vanes. The tube must be precisely calibrated otherwise it will not work which it didn't although they reported it was better than what they had. 

What I found interesting here is the best intake that worked for the 1ZZ in this video was the OEM 2ZZ Celica intake tube that was cut out of its box. I think it offered a little more air flow however the MAF may have been  reporting the correct amount of air or close to it  allowing the ECU to increase the injector duty cycle and timing to take advantage of more power.

 I was planing to run my own experiment with fitting my Cobb 2ZZ intake on a locals car to see if there was any advantage but unfortunately the local member just had shoulder surgery and his car is in storage. If someone would like I can find a used Cobb intake on eBay and send it over there for someone that would like to test and see how it works for the 1ZZ. The costs including shipping will have to be covered by the tester otherwise someone could do what this guy did and find a used Celica intake and cut out the MAF tube.

Anyway here is the video.

I'm using a Rouge motorsports custom intake on my 2zz that seems to work well. It consists of a custom maf pipe, BCM CDA with cold air ducting all the way to the NS air vent.

Never tried anything else for comparison, but seems to pick up nicely and the spark plugs all have a nice even burn pattern indicating its not running rich/lean.

Going to get it on a dyno soon to see what it puts out and what the AFR's are saying.

Quote from: JB21 on July 29, 2021, 14:25I'm using a Rouge motorsports custom intake on my 2zz that seems to work well. It consists of a custom maf pipe, BCM CDA with cold air ducting all the way to the NS air vent.

Never tried anything else for comparison, but seems to pick up nicely and the spark plugs all have a nice even burn pattern indicating its not running rich/lean.

Going to get it on a dyno soon to see what it puts out and what the AFR's are saying.

Are you using an aftermarket ECU?
 When I had my own custom hacked up EBay intake my car ran well except for a little bogging when the car was cold. The 02 sensors will see that the car is running lean due to the under reporting MAF and add fuel to keep it Stoichiometric but it will not increase timing or even the VVT for power, it will just keep the engine from running lean. It will not be obvious that its losing power but after you add a calibrated intake it will then be obvious with more torque at part throttle and generally just a more OEM kind of drive that feels right with smooth power.
 
That increase in fuel will be a genuine result of less restriction and not compensation if the ECU is able to read exactly how much air has entered so it can do its fuel and timing calculations for given RPMs.

Quote from: JB21 on July 29, 2021, 14:25I'm using a Rouge motorsports custom intake on my 2zz that seems to work well. It consists of a custom maf pipe, BCM CDA with cold air ducting all the way to the NS air vent.

Never tried anything else for comparison, but seems to pick up nicely and the spark plugs all have a nice even burn pattern indicating its not running rich/lean.

Going to get it on a dyno soon to see what it puts out and what the AFR's are saying.

I have the same setup. Like you, need to get dyno'd.

Quote from: Dev on July 29, 2021, 14:02I seen this yesterday. Im not saying that the dyno is correct or the information is correct but it is interesting that someone did this. 
 When we say that intakes do not matter and the stock one is best that is true only because most of the aftermarket intakes are not calibrated and will under report the amount if air making the car run lean.
 
 For my 2ZZ I have a calibrated MAF tube with vanes that fixes many of the issues with cheaper intakes especially at part throttle and the power was noticeable. 
 The reason why the OEM intake for the 1ZZ works well is primarily because of the vanes. If someone designed a proper calibrated intake there would be benefits.
 
I know of some members that tried to make their own 3D printed intakes with vanes after I brought it to their attention but I warned them that you cant simply eye ball it and add vanes. The tube must be precisely calibrated otherwise it will not work which it didn't although they reported it was better than what they had. 

What I found interesting here is the best intake that worked for the 1ZZ in this video was the OEM 2ZZ Celica intake tube that was cut out of its box. I think it offered a little more air flow however the MAF may have been  reporting the correct amount of air or close to it  allowing the ECU to increase the injector duty cycle and timing to take advantage of more power.

 I was planing to run my own experiment with fitting my Cobb 2ZZ intake on a locals car to see if there was any advantage but unfortunately the local member just had shoulder surgery and his car is in storage. If someone would like I can find a used Cobb intake on eBay and send it over there for someone that would like to test and see how it works for the 1ZZ. The costs including shipping will have to be covered by the tester otherwise someone could do what this guy did and find a used Celica intake and cut out the MAF tube.

Anyway here is the video.

Send it to Danny from the video.

I believe the chap that said to me he is getting power is doing something similar. Obviously Danny's car is set up for racing within restrictions but he is already getting a nice little increase over stock from his other tweaks. I assume most of, if not all of the championship racers are doing something similar as it's very competitive. 

I see the apexi intake is not cheap, but doing it with the 2zz would be, as long as it's not detrimental to the engine. Do you think there would be any side effects to the car?

Quote from: Zspeed on July 30, 2021, 06:43I see the apexi intake is not cheap, but doing it with the 2zz would be, as long as it's not detrimental to the engine. Do you think there would be any side effects to the car?

The Apexi intake is interesting because it is trying to do what Toyota does with the vanes. Injen is another intake company that tried to calibrate their intakes by narrowing the tube at the point just before the MAF.
These are relatively new developments from intake manufactures because they understand the need to build intakes to match the OEM calibration.  This is something that cannot be guessed and approximated, it requires a flow bench and equipment to measure the MAF signal with the correct scaling.

  I have debated other enthusiasts for years on the purpose of the vanes in the intake. They have made wild assumptions that its for turbulence which it is not. The purpose of the vanes is to speed up the airflow against the MAF hot wire and by doing so it cools it down which creates a value that can be read by the ECU so it knows precisely how much air has entered the engine. With out the vanes the ECU will under report the amount of air which makes it actually lose power especially at part throttle and midrange torque.

As far as detrimental effects of running aftermarket intakes of any kind it shouldn't harm the engine because the O2 sensors rules all of the fueling. If it reports that it is lean it will add fuel and if it reports rich it will subtract fuel. However aftermarket intakes that use the foam or oil/gauze type of filtration is bad for the car as they have shown though oil analysis to let in too much particulate that can harm the engine over time.  The solution is to use a dry flow filter.

 As far as using the 2ZZ intake tube I have a feeling that as long as its calibrated for the MAF it will report the volume of air entering the engine regardless if the intake is slightly larger than the 1ZZ. Both the 1ZZ and 2ZZ use the same MAF. The only thing that would invalidate my assumption is if the ECUs scale differently. 

 This might be a good way to gain 3-5 whp depending on what exhaust is being used so that it acts synergistically with less restrictions.

Would honeycomb air straighteners not do the same thing as veins?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cold+air+intake+air+straightener&sxsrf=ALeKk00B0Xcfn1sQCz4burUcmyF2B2CKrA%3A1627662833128&source=hp&ei=8SkEYcDmBc6X8gLHzb3IDA&oq=air+intake+air+str&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBggAEBYQHjIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIECCEQFTIICCEQFhAdEB4yCAghEBYQHRAeMggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQNQphBYkDhgzUFoAXAAeACAAdICiAG1EJIBBzkuNy4wLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=R8hSy_Iwd2-RXM&scso=_-ykEYeOKH4TBgQa_xbyYAg3:487.75 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cold+air+intake+air+straightener&sxsrf=ALeKk00B0Xcfn1sQCz4burUcmyF2B2CKrA%3A1627662833128&source=hp&ei=8SkEYcDmBc6X8gLHzb3IDA&oq=air+intake+air+str&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBggAEBYQHjIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIECCEQFTIICCEQFhAdEB4yCAghEBYQHRAeMggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQNQphBYkDhgzUFoAXAAeACAAdICiAG1EJIBBzkuNy4wLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=R8hSy_Iwd2-RXM&scso=_-ykEYeOKH4TBgQa_xbyYAg3:487.75)

Quote from: JB21 on July 30, 2021, 17:39Would honeycomb air straighteners not do the same thing as veins?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cold+air+intake+air+straightener&sxsrf=ALeKk00B0Xcfn1sQCz4burUcmyF2B2CKrA%3A1627662833128&source=hp&ei=8SkEYcDmBc6X8gLHzb3IDA&oq=air+intake+air+str&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBggAEBYQHjIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIECCEQFTIICCEQFhAdEB4yCAghEBYQHRAeMggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQNQphBYkDhgzUFoAXAAeACAAdICiAG1EJIBBzkuNy4wLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=R8hSy_Iwd2-RXM&scso=_-ykEYeOKH4TBgQa_xbyYAg3:487.75 (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cold+air+intake+air+straightener&sxsrf=ALeKk00B0Xcfn1sQCz4burUcmyF2B2CKrA%3A1627662833128&source=hp&ei=8SkEYcDmBc6X8gLHzb3IDA&oq=air+intake+air+str&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBggAEBYQHjIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIECCEQFTIICCEQFhAdEB4yCAghEBYQHRAeMggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQNQphBYkDhgzUFoAXAAeACAAdICiAG1EJIBBzkuNy4wLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=R8hSy_Iwd2-RXM&scso=_-ykEYeOKH4TBgQa_xbyYAg3:487.75)

No unfortunately they wont. The honeycomb will help with laminar flow which was what they used on older intake designs from the 90s. Those intakes had the MAF wire along the length of the intake tube. 

 The vanes do straighten the air but that is not its primary function.  What is does is simulate a smaller tube in the intake so that air velocity speeds up.  The reason why they do it this way is to give the MAF sensor the smallest foot print in the intake so it doesn't become an obstruction.  Also it makes the MAF reading more consistent with this kind of design.

 There have been a few intake makers that tried to make vane inserts  before the MAF to mimic what they think it does which is straighten the air and it actually lost power on the dyno.

When making the vanes it has to be design precisely and the tube needs to be flow tested. That is why inserts and 3D printed designs from enthusiast did not work. The Cobb MAF tube I have was flow tested and calibrated to OEM specs with exactly the right size tube down to the mm. There is no room for error. 

It is possible that the vanes ahead of the MAF are for flow straightening. In the standard setup, the MAF is very close to the airbox and the flow paths are not straight. For almost all insertion type flowmeters (which the MAF is) there is usually a minimum straight length of pipe requirements upstream and downstream to let the flow sort itself out in the pipe (usually measured in pipe-diameters for example 3xD upstream and 5xD downstream). If you can't manage this then you can insert flow "conditioning" devices in that nudge the flow into the required profile for the sensing element.

The "honeycomb" devices are type of flow conditioner typically used (well, in the circumstances I've come across) as vortex/swirl breakers. Swirling flow can be generated from rotating elements (i.e spinning pumps, fans etc.) or from static bends which cause the flow to "wrap" on itself. Flow measurements tend to be aligned with the flow but swirl introduces errors because it no longer aligns with the pipe. The honeycomb breaks up swirl into a series of smaller, shorter swirls (or vortices) and gives the flow a chance to stabilise. Nothing is free so the cost is a pressure drop across the element. If you have a pump then you can "adjust" parameters (i.e. pump speed, impeller diameter etc.) to offset and maintain the flow. If you rely on a static pressure different (i.e. N/A engine intake) then that dP could be a detrimental flow restriction.

I am running the 2zz maf housing with a dastek unichip and a ram air enclosed air filter and it feels wonderful. Its all anecdotal as I have not had it on a rolling road but it feels aggressive and spritely.

Quote from: onenastyviper on August  4, 2021, 07:28It is possible that the vanes ahead of the MAF are for flow straightening. In the standard setup, the MAF is very close to the airbox and the flow paths are not straight. For almost all insertion type flowmeters (which the MAF is) there is usually a minimum straight length of pipe requirements upstream and downstream to let the flow sort itself out in the pipe (usually measured in pipe-diameters for example 3xD upstream and 5xD downstream). If you can't manage this then you can insert flow "conditioning" devices in that nudge the flow into the required profile for the sensing element.

The "honeycomb" devices are type of flow conditioner typically used (well, in the circumstances I've come across) as vortex/swirl breakers. Swirling flow can be generated from rotating elements (i.e spinning pumps, fans etc.) or from static bends which cause the flow to "wrap" on itself. Flow measurements tend to be aligned with the flow but swirl introduces errors because it no longer aligns with the pipe. The honeycomb breaks up swirl into a series of smaller, shorter swirls (or vortices) and gives the flow a chance to stabilise. Nothing is free so the cost is a pressure drop across the element. If you have a pump then you can "adjust" parameters (i.e. pump speed, impeller diameter etc.) to offset and maintain the flow. If you rely on a static pressure different (i.e. N/A engine intake) then that dP could be a detrimental flow restriction.

It is a kind of straighter as I mentioned but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is the simulate a smaller tube so that the air is speeds up so the MAF sensor wire is cooled down to report the correct electrical resistance so the ECU knows how much air has entered the engine. 
Without the vanes the hot wire is not cooled down enough and therefore it under reports which is not good and you will lose power on various areas along the RPM band.   
Aftermarket intake manufactures recognize this now and are making calibrated intakes that either narrow the tube before the MAF or add walls as you see with the Apexi intake. The best intakes are the ones that use vanes like the factory however you just don't add them the entire intake has to be flow tested with the MAF and the electrical resistance has to be precisely measured which is not something a DIY person can do.

 Here is a video on the Injen MR technology which is nothing more than narrowing the tube so the MAF reports the correct amount of air.  I do not like this technology because it is less efficient.
 
If you add a honeycomb it will not do anything for this kind of intake system. Turbulence is not an issue with this kind of MAF housing because the foot print is very small. Honeycomb arrangement were what older air sensors used.

Quote from: Rallyeluke on August  4, 2021, 09:31I am running the 2zz maf housing with a dastek unichip and a ram air enclosed air filter and it feels wonderful. Its all anecdotal as I have not had it on a rolling road but it feels aggressive and spritely.

 Good to hear. What you get when the air intake is reporting the correct amount of air is a OEM kind of drive.
   It use to be that you can optimize the performance if you tune without having any vanes but it seems that in some tuning circles particularly the Subaru community they have found that the vanes make scaling for fuel more consistent. Therefore companies have made larger diameter intakes with vanes in them.

Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Shame they couldn't get the HKS on as that's what I have on mine, totally non standard set up  anyway  but would've been good to see how it performed against the others on that set up.

Quote from: Zspeed on August  8, 2021, 18:53Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Is this for a 1ZZ engine or a 2ZZ engine?

Quote from: Dev on August  8, 2021, 22:33

Quote from: Zspeed on August  8, 2021, 18:53Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Is this for a 1ZZ engine or a 2ZZ engine?

1zz engine, standard oem airbox. Have a 2zz maf pipe cut out of 2zz airbox and cut the 1zz maf pipe out to replace it with the 2zz.

I will add a couple of pics

Here you go. Toyota knows best so combined both Toyota bits.

When I took the CAI out I realised how rubbish it was. The pipe had a large hole right near the maf and was only 60mm wide. I get the impression from what I have read that the tube size was important.

Makes me wonder if I have been missing out to start with but the engine now gets really aggressive after 5500 revs.

Quote from: Zspeed on August  9, 2021, 06:10

Quote from: Dev on August  8, 2021, 22:33

Quote from: Zspeed on August  8, 2021, 18:53Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Is this for a 1ZZ engine or a 2ZZ engine?

1zz engine, standard oem airbox. Have a 2zz maf pipe cut out of 2zz airbox and cut the 1zz maf pipe out to replace it with the 2zz.

I will add a couple of pics

Pics would be great. Now that I know what engine you have I can tell you that there is no lift with a 1zz motor or any change over point. The VVT with intelligence is usually always on adjusting the valves where you don't notice. It's nothing like lift on a 2ZZ motor.

Pics would be great. Now that I know what engine you have I can tell you that there is no lift with a 1zz motor or any change over point. The VVT with intelligence is usually always on adjusting the valves where you don't notice. It's nothing like lift on a 2ZZ motor.
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Something is happening, it must be where my exhaust is knackered and the car is no longer restricted by it and the thin maf pipe that was on there before. Looking forward to the replacement so I can get out for a proper drive.

For a 1ZZ engine running a stock airbox you'd be as well just running the stock 1ZZ MAF housing. Those running a different MAF housing are also running open/cone/carbon can air filters.

What Roj mentioned is correct. If you source the correct silicon coupler on both ends you can essentially make your own short ram intake using the 2ZZ MAF housing. It would run from the throttle body to the back of the battery where the air filter is attached. This way you have both a cold short ram intake that makes a nice sound.  Without the restriction from the OEM filter housing gains could possibly be made. 

Quote from: Dev on August  9, 2021, 15:57What Roj mentioned is correct. If you source the correct silicon coupler on both ends you can essentially make your own short ram intake using the 2ZZ MAF housing. It would run from the throttle body to the back of the battery where the air filter is attached. This way you have both a cold short ram intake that makes a nice sound.  Without the restriction from the OEM filter housing gains could possibly be made. 

I got the impression from many on the forum that the induction kits like that have very little, if any effect on the car performance and was more about noise.

That is what was already on the car, but after researching this particular setup was quite poor and probably restrictive.  The maf pipe was only 60mm diameter, and for some reason had a hole in it opposite the maf to the engine bay allowing unfiltered engine warmed air into the engine. I just didn't see it until I took it off. 

People seem to suggest that Toyota know best so using the stock system should do the same job if not better. It does make sense to do something like the markii pipe and am hoping to order some hose like Petrus as a cheaper option.

Once the exhaust is sorted I will have a better idea. I'm still hoping I can sort a dyno out with my brother when he is getting his race car done, but I think it is sometime off.

Quote from: Zspeed on August  9, 2021, 16:36

Quote from: Dev on August  9, 2021, 15:57What Roj mentioned is correct. If you source the correct silicon coupler on both ends you can essentially make your own short ram intake using the 2ZZ MAF housing. It would run from the throttle body to the back of the battery where the air filter is attached. This way you have both a cold short ram intake that makes a nice sound.  Without the restriction from the OEM filter housing gains could possibly be made. 

I got the impression from many on the forum that the induction kits like that have very little, if any effect on the car performance and was more about noise.

That is what was already on the car, but after researching this particular setup was quite poor and probably restrictive.  The maf pipe was only 60mm diameter, and for some reason had a hole in it opposite the maf to the engine bay allowing unfiltered engine warmed air into the engine. I just didn't see it until I took it off. 

People seem to suggest that Toyota know best so using the stock system should do the same job if not better. It does make sense to do something like the markii pipe and am hoping to order some hose like Petrus as a cheaper option.

Once the exhaust is sorted I will have a better idea. I'm still hoping I can sort a dyno out with my brother when he is getting his race car done, but I think it is sometime off.

Toyota does know what is best and its primarily the calibration vanes in the MAF housing not the entire intake box. Other aftermarket intake systems dont have them or they are poorly designed.   What this does is tell the ECU that there is less air coming into the engine which is bad for performance. With a calibrated intake MAF housing it will report the correct amount of air and the ECU can now make the right calculation for fuel, ignition timing and VVT. What we are doing in a nutshell is using the Toyota MAF housing and ditching the restrictive box along with restrictive piping.

Making a proper intake tube with less restrictions is the goal here. With the 2ZZ intake tube it is possible that a little more power is available because the intake tube is slightly larger but I believe the vanes are still calibrated to the MAF which is what is important.

 

Toyota does know what is best and its primarily the calibration vanes in the MAF housing not the entire intake box. Other aftermarket intake systems dont have them or they are poorly designed.   What this does is tell the ECU that there is less air coming into the engine which is bad for performance. With a calibrated intake MAF housing it will report the correct amount of air and the ECU can now make the right calculation for fuel, ignition timing and VVT. What we are doing in a nutshell is using the Toyota MAF housing and ditching the restrictive box along with restrictive piping.

Making a proper intake tube with less restrictions is the goal here. With the 2ZZ intake tube it is possible that a little more power is available because the intake tube is slightly larger but I believe the vanes are still calibrated to the MAF which is what is important.

[/quote]

If I can find a decent air filter and necessary piping at a reasonable cost I will have a go.

I do think some of what I have experienced is to do with taking out the poor setup that was in the car in the first place and putting back in something better, even if it is the stock box.

Quote from: Zspeed on August  9, 2021, 19:49Toyota does know what is best and its primarily the calibration vanes in the MAF housing not the entire intake box. Other aftermarket intake systems dont have them or they are poorly designed.   What this does is tell the ECU that there is less air coming into the engine which is bad for performance. With a calibrated intake MAF housing it will report the correct amount of air and the ECU can now make the right calculation for fuel, ignition timing and VVT. What we are doing in a nutshell is using the Toyota MAF housing and ditching the restrictive box along with restrictive piping.

Making a proper intake tube with less restrictions is the goal here. With the 2ZZ intake tube it is possible that a little more power is available because the intake tube is slightly larger but I believe the vanes are still calibrated to the MAF which is what is important.

If I can find a decent air filter and necessary piping at a reasonable cost I will have a go.

I do think some of what I have experienced is to do with taking out the poor setup that was in the car in the first place and putting back in something better, even if it is the stock box.
[/quote]

Absolutely. Most aftermarket intakes are not that good because they are not calibrated to the engine.
 Once a community of owners realizes this then it is presumed that all aftermarket intakes are junk. 
 That is not exactly true, there is always a reason why.  Most other platforms are ahead of the game where we are sill discovering a lot of this. Unfortunately exclusivity has a downside. I always found it peculiar that for out platform modifications that do make a genuine difference are often not popular. 

 

Absolutely. Most aftermarket intakes are not that good because they are not calibrated to the engine.
 Once a community of owners realizes this then it is presumed that all aftermarket intakes are junk. 
 That is not exactly true, there is always a reason why.  Most other platforms are ahead of the game where we are sill discovering a lot of this. Unfortunately exclusivity has a downside. I always found it peculiar that for out platform modifications that do make a genuine difference are often not popular. 

 


[/quote]

Any suggestions welcome? I know the bcm cda that @JB21 says in his car is pushed by rogue motorsports for track cars and they do very well in the mr2 championship.  I guess a lot of it is in the setup.

Quote from: Dev on August  4, 2021, 15:25It is a kind of straighter as I mentioned but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is the simulate a smaller tube so that the air is speeds up so the MAF sensor wire is cooled down to report the correct electrical resistance so the ECU knows how much air has entered the engine. 
Without the vanes the hot wire is not cooled down enough and therefore it under reports which is not good and you will lose power on various areas along the RPM band.   
Aftermarket intake manufactures recognize this now and are making calibrated intakes that either narrow the tube before the MAF or add walls as you see with the Apexi intake. The best intakes are the ones that use vanes like the factory however you just don't add them the entire intake has to be flow tested with the MAF and the electrical resistance has to be precisely measured which is not something a DIY person can do.

 Here is a video on the Injen MR technology which is nothing more than narrowing the tube so the MAF reports the correct amount of air.  I do not like this technology because it is less efficient.
 
If you add a honeycomb it will not do anything for this kind of intake system. Turbulence is not an issue with this kind of MAF housing because the foot print is very small. Honeycomb arrangement were what older air sensors used.

Don't take this the wrong way but I don't understand the reasoning behind the Injen videos. By reducing the tube diameter you speed up the flow at the expense of pressure drop. In N/A applications, surely you'd only want to speed up the flow whenever there is a secondary benefit (i.e. attempting to increase inertia, breakup of fuel droplets etc.) and you are happy accepting the restriction.

Deliberately reducing the tube diameter strikes me as a cost exercise to be able to use the same velocity sensing element(s) across a range of intakes.

I've only ever worked with continuous flow systems but engine intake systems are pulse-flow systems and not continuous flow systems so I can accept that my reasoning could be (very) flawed. This is demonstrated by the fact we can "tune" an engine simply by altering the length of the intake system. In an engine, there is an optimum position because the pressure pulses feed backwards into the intake system and can actually increase the available pressure to force additional air through the system. It's also why volumetric efficiency is a useful parameter for engines but not for pipework systems.

For those who have been to engine tuners and dyno sessions, do they report volumetric efficiency (VE) for your engines?

No, but that is what you're changing (for fueling) when you map a car. Normally. Some systems use injector pulse times, others use VE tables. So it's not your measured VE, but more a guess that seems to measure up based on the amount of measured air, the fuel's specific burn ratio, etc.

I.e. If I fill in a cell with the value 98, it's not because the VE is 98, but for a that cruise load cell where I want 14.7:1 ratio of air to fuel, the value 98 calculates against the measured air and my injector settings.

Quote from: shnazzle on August 12, 2021, 09:36No, but that is what you're changing (for fueling) when you map a car. Normally. Some systems use injector pulse times, others use VE tables. So it's not your measured VE, but more a guess that seems to measure up based on the amount of measured air, the fuel's specific burn ratio, etc.

I.e. If I fill in a cell with the value 98, it's not because the VE is 98, but for a that cruise load cell where I want 14.7:1 ratio of air to fuel, the value 98 calculates against the measured air and my injector settings.

So, what are the measurements that decide whether the parameter is within or outside of the desired tuning envelope?
I get that the are maxima and minima with all this (i.e. injector pulse width, rich/lean running) but what is someone actively looking at when tuning?

Quote from: onenastyviper on August 12, 2021, 07:59

Quote from: Dev on August  4, 2021, 15:25It is a kind of straighter as I mentioned but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is the simulate a smaller tube so that the air is speeds up so the MAF sensor wire is cooled down to report the correct electrical resistance so the ECU knows how much air has entered the engine. 
Without the vanes the hot wire is not cooled down enough and therefore it under reports which is not good and you will lose power on various areas along the RPM band.   
Aftermarket intake manufactures recognize this now and are making calibrated intakes that either narrow the tube before the MAF or add walls as you see with the Apexi intake. The best intakes are the ones that use vanes like the factory however you just don't add them the entire intake has to be flow tested with the MAF and the electrical resistance has to be precisely measured which is not something a DIY person can do.

 Here is a video on the Injen MR technology which is nothing more than narrowing the tube so the MAF reports the correct amount of air.  I do not like this technology because it is less efficient.
 
If you add a honeycomb it will not do anything for this kind of intake system. Turbulence is not an issue with this kind of MAF housing because the foot print is very small. Honeycomb arrangement were what older air sensors used.

Don't take this the wrong way but I don't understand the reasoning behind the Injen videos. By reducing the tube diameter you speed up the flow at the expense of pressure drop. In N/A applications, surely you'd only want to speed up the flow whenever there is a secondary benefit (i.e. attempting to increase inertia, breakup of fuel droplets etc.) and you are happy accepting the restriction.

Deliberately reducing the tube diameter strikes me as a cost exercise to be able to use the same velocity sensing element(s) across a range of intakes.

I've only ever worked with continuous flow systems but engine intake systems are pulse-flow systems and not continuous flow systems so I can accept that my reasoning could be (very) flawed. This is demonstrated by the fact we can "tune" an engine simply by altering the length of the intake system. In an engine, there is an optimum position because the pressure pulses feed backwards into the intake system and can actually increase the available pressure to force additional air through the system. It's also why volumetric efficiency is a useful parameter for engines but not for pipework systems.

For those who have been to engine tuners and dyno sessions, do they report volumetric efficiency (VE) for your engines?

I apologize for not having a disclaimer on the Injen video as the presenters explanation was spotty.
 
Before we complicate this with pressure drops, VE and all of this other debatable items let us keep it very simple.

 The reason for the reduction in size of the intake tube is to speed up the airflow for only one reason and that is for the MAF to read correctly, nothing more.  The MAF was designed to be in a calibrated MAF housing and when you buy a aftermarket intake it is not. The Injen solution is to reduce the intake diameter just before it reaches the MAF and then the tube is back to its original diameter which is most likely larger then OEM for less restriction.
When we use a uncalibrated MAF housing it lets in unmetered air which is not good for performance.
 Apexi solution is to add metal on the sides which also narrows the intake passage essentially doing the same thing but its not optimal. The best way is how Toyota originally designed the intake and that is to use intake vanes not for straightening the air but to speed up air flow though a segmented  section of the vanes to flow against the MAF so it will cool the hot wire.  The colder the hot wire the more air is registered by the ECU.  When the ECU knows there is more air that has entered the intake it can then make better calculations for fueling and timing under various load conditions.

Quote from: Dev on August 12, 2021, 13:51I apologize for not having a disclaimer on the Injen video as the presenters explanation was spotty.
 
Before we complicate this with pressure drops, VE and all of this other debatable items let us keep it very simple.

 The reason for the reduction in size of the intake tube is to speed up the airflow for only one reason and that is for the MAF to read correctly, nothing more.  The MAF was designed to be in a calibrated MAF housing and when you buy a aftermarket intake it is not. The Injen solution is to reduce the intake diameter just before it reaches the MAF and then the tube is back to its original diameter which is most likely larger then OEM for less restriction.
When we use a uncalibrated MAF housing it lets in unmetered air which is not good for performance.
 Apexi solution is to add metal on the sides which also narrows the intake passage essentially doing the same thing but its not optimal. The best way is how Toyota originally designed the intake and that is to use intake vanes not for straightening the air but to speed up air flow though a segmented  section of the vanes to flow against the MAF so it will cool the hot wire.  The colder the hot wire the more air is registered by the ECU.  When the ECU knows there is more air that has entered the intake it can then make better calculations for fueling and timing under various load conditions.

I get what you are saying but I think "unmetered air" is throwing me off. To me, it implies an unmeasured flow which would not happen with an inline sensing element (mass flow never changes in a series pipe) and more what would happen if the intake had a hole in it somewhere (i.e. loose clip, split pipe etc.).

I think the MAF is totally oblivious to the housing size and just measures velocity. For the same velocity, a small tube and large tube would have massively different mass flow rates and the engine runs on air mass flow not air velocity.

Quote from: onenastyviper on August 13, 2021, 12:20

Quote from: Dev on August 12, 2021, 13:51I apologize for not having a disclaimer on the Injen video as the presenters explanation was spotty.
 
Before we complicate this with pressure drops, VE and all of this other debatable items let us keep it very simple.

 The reason for the reduction in size of the intake tube is to speed up the airflow for only one reason and that is for the MAF to read correctly, nothing more.  The MAF was designed to be in a calibrated MAF housing and when you buy a aftermarket intake it is not. The Injen solution is to reduce the intake diameter just before it reaches the MAF and then the tube is back to its original diameter which is most likely larger then OEM for less restriction.
When we use a uncalibrated MAF housing it lets in unmetered air which is not good for performance.
 Apexi solution is to add metal on the sides which also narrows the intake passage essentially doing the same thing but its not optimal. The best way is how Toyota originally designed the intake and that is to use intake vanes not for straightening the air but to speed up air flow though a segmented  section of the vanes to flow against the MAF so it will cool the hot wire.  The colder the hot wire the more air is registered by the ECU.  When the ECU knows there is more air that has entered the intake it can then make better calculations for fueling and timing under various load conditions.

I get what you are saying but I think "unmetered air" is throwing me off. To me, it implies an unmeasured flow which would not happen with an inline sensing element (mass flow never changes in a series pipe) and more what would happen if the intake had a hole in it somewhere (i.e. loose clip, split pipe etc.).

I think the MAF is totally oblivious to the housing size and just measures velocity. For the same velocity, a small tube and large tube would have massively different mass flow rates and the engine runs on air mass flow not air velocity.

Using your analogy of having a hole after the MAF from a loose fitting or leaking gasket in the plenum is similar to what happens if the MAF does not read the amount of air that enters the engine due to an uncalibrated intake. Air should be hitting the MAF at the velocity  that is required to register the correct reading otherwise it gets passed the MAF ability to read how much air has entered and therefore it is unmetered because there is more air than is read. That is why vanes are used so that it directs and speeds up air flow so the MAF can have an accurate reading for the amount of air that is entering the engine and it does this by cooling the heated MAF wire. To cool the MAF wire sufficiently it needs more air velocity.

You might be wondering why do they do it this way. Why don't they simply calibrated it for the velocity of the tube with no vanes or reduction of the tubing size. That is a good question and the answer I was given by Cobb tuning and other sources was the MAF sensor design  has the ability to have a smaller foot print and the scaling of how the MAF reads proportionally and therefore accurately. The MAF sensor is primitive in the way it works but it works reliability.

If you look at some other MAF housing designs for other cars there will be a small tube in the intake or it is part of the MAF housing that samples the air at a higher velocity to hit the MAF sensor wire for the correct reading.
Keep in mind that the velocity of the air is speed up only in a very small 1 or 2 inch section in the tube of the MAF housing not for the entire intake track. The velocity of the air remains the same except at the MAF where it samples the air.

The housing size is very important otherwise more air enters the engine than is registered by the MAF creating a lean condition because the larger you make the intake you will have a reduction in air velocity. A reduction in air velocity on the MAF makes the wire hotter registering less air by the ECU.
 
For our car some misguided people have tried to hobble their own intake using a larger diameter intake in the belief they would get more power and were baffled why the car ran poorly and threw a CEL.
What is actually happening is the car is trying to compensate a lean condition using fuel trims but it has passed the limits of compensation.

Quote from: onenastyviper on August 12, 2021, 12:52

Quote from: shnazzle on August 12, 2021, 09:36No, but that is what you're changing (for fueling) when you map a car. Normally. Some systems use injector pulse times, others use VE tables. So it's not your measured VE, but more a guess that seems to measure up based on the amount of measured air, the fuel's specific burn ratio, etc.

I.e. If I fill in a cell with the value 98, it's not because the VE is 98, but for a that cruise load cell where I want 14.7:1 ratio of air to fuel, the value 98 calculates against the measured air and my injector settings.

So, what are the measurements that decide whether the parameter is within or outside of the desired tuning envelope?
I get that the are maxima and minima with all this (i.e. injector pulse width, rich/lean running) but what is someone actively looking at when tuning?

Air-fuel ratio (AFRs) and torque.

There are a number of reasons for chasing certain AFRs.
14.7 gives the most complete burn. 13 decreases exhaust temperatures and prevents knock, 15ish saves fuel. Etc. 
The there's torque (remember HP is calculated from torque) which obviously is your target. You want as much torque as possible and you tune your fueling and timing to increase torque.
You find the max, then dial it down a bit for protection. Do that across all the load cells.
That's why it takes hours and hours.

What Dev is trying to say is that all the same air is going through the pipe, but not all of it is being accounted for. So essentially the same as having a leak post-MAF.

Imagine a hallway and people walking through it into an auditorium. There's someone standing in the hallway counting the people that pass. They pass that information to someone in the auditorium so that they know how many chairs to put out.
Now imagine someone widens the hallway and the counter can't see that far. They report 50 people, but 67 people show up in the auditorium. 17 people have no chairs and all of a sudden they have to scramble to quickly try to find 17 people chairs. It's fine.
Now imagine 50 are counted, and 89 show up. Now there's 39 people too many. They manage 25 extra chairs but 14 people are left standing and cause a scene. The show is halted and everyone is naffed off.
... That's what's happening when you feck with the intake pipe.

@Dev this is quite an interesting video on this subject.

https://youtu.be/rqdvxfwFrHs

From my limited knowledge, my interpretation is that he basically says with an NA car the most effective way to make power from the intake is to reduce temperature. Outside of that you need an aftermarket ecu.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 14, 2021, 11:34@Dev this is quite an interesting video on this subject.

https://youtu.be/rqdvxfwFrHs

From my limited knowledge, my interpretation is that he basically says with an NA car the most effective way to make power from the intake is to reduce temperature. Outside of that you need an aftermarket ecu.

Good video. Here are the take aways.
 
1.It depends on the application. This is the big one.

2. It is known that having a colder air source is beneficial for power. This is true. Having the intake that is sits behind the battery will bring in the lowest intake temps compared to almost all of the aftermarket intakes that make a curve and go to the back of the car near the exhaust components.  Those are some of the worst intake designs and it should be called a hot air intake. However I did not notice much if any difference when it came to added power when I tried to add additional shielding which reduced the air intake temps an additional 10f so I removed the shielding. I notice more power on a colder day than trying to make the intake the absolute coldest. 

3. The more bends you have in the intake and the longer the run the more resistive the intake is. This is why using the short ram intake that sits behind the battery is the best intake design for our car because its not only a short ram its also a cold air which is rare for most cars as you can only have one or the other.

4. If you notice at the end of the video he echos much of what I have been writing regarding calibrated intake tubes and how they work. However he mentions the vanes used in some of them as air straighteners but fails to mention that they are for the calibration. That segmented section in the tube is like having a smaller diameter tube that speeds up the air velocity to cool the MAF wire. Without it you will have a rise in fuel trims. I have data logged this and found it to be true. Later on someone else performed the same experiment adding his own vanes and had a reduction in positive fuel trims.

 Here is where you make power. With the less restive intake it becomes synergistic with anything that makes the engine spin up faster. If you add a less restrictive exhaust and so forth the benefits will be additive. When this happens the car can suck in more air, it will be read properly by the MAF so the ECU can calculate how much fuel to inject along with the timing. The increase in positive fuel trims will be genuine which results in more power. With an uncalibrated MAF tube the ECU reports less air but the 02 sensor reports more air or a leaner mixture. In order to keep the correct AF ratios for emission it will richen the mixture but there is no benefit for performance.

 As far as how much you can get out of a proper intake like adapting the 2ZZ housing. Probably a genuine 3-5 whp. That is a lot for a small engine like this one and it wont be just at peak, it should be across the board which is where it can be felt. There are many dynos that exaggerates their figures and that is why real low figures dont seem like much.

Just leave it stock and enjoy the drive

Quote from: Iain on August 14, 2021, 20:13Just leave it stock and enjoy the drive

That is generally the advised conclusion, but it is one of the more interesting aspects of fuel injected cars. In my opinion anyway. How something as silly as a piece of plastic in a certain position is the difference between a well-running car and failing MOT.


Having said that... It does make one hark back to the days of carburetors. (yes, I do remember them)... If fueling was off, a bit twist here, tighten there and "does it sound right?".
So much simpler. But.. In the same vein, who remembers having to use the choke? Bit harder than just cranking the engine and letting the ecu figure it out.

Quote from: shnazzle on August 15, 2021, 09:50

Quote from: Iain on August 14, 2021, 20:13Just leave it stock and enjoy the drive

That is generally the advised conclusion, but it is one of the more interesting aspects of fuel injected cars. In my opinion anyway. How something as silly as a piece of plastic in a certain position is the difference between a well-running car and failing MOT.


Having said that... It does make one hark back to the days of carburetors. (yes, I do remember them)... If fueling was off, a bit twist here, tighten there and "does it sound right?".
So much simpler. But.. In the same vein, who remembers having to use the choke? Bit harder than just cranking the engine and letting the ecu figure it out.

Dual choke Webber carburettor, hand choke, even a hand throttle on the last car I owned (Fiat 1500) prior to driving Company owned cars.

PS
Not to mention the column gear change and horn ring!

Quote from: shnazzle on August 15, 2021, 09:50

Quote from: Iain on August 14, 2021, 20:13Just leave it stock and enjoy the drive

That is generally the advised conclusion, but it is one of the more interesting aspects of fuel injected cars. In my opinion anyway. How something as silly as a piece of plastic in a certain position is the difference between a well-running car and failing MOT.


Having said that... It does make one hark back to the days of carburetors. (yes, I do remember them)... If fueling was off, a bit twist here, tighten there and "does it sound right?".
So much simpler. But.. In the same vein, who remembers having to use the choke? Bit harder than just cranking the engine and letting the ecu figure it out.

Used to love setting up and messing with the carb etc on my old 998 mini, taught me alot about engines.  Like you say you knew when it was right as it sounded so sweet. Miss doing that alot, still get the urge to get myself another mini one day.

Quote from: Dev on August 14, 2021, 19:112. It is known that having a colder air source is beneficial for power. This is true. Having the intake that is sits behind the battery will bring in the lowest intake temps compared to almost all of the aftermarket intakes that make a curve and go to the back of the car near the exhaust components.  Those are some of the worst intake designs and it should be called a hot air intake. However I did not notice much if any difference when it came to added power when I tried to add additional shielding which reduced the air intake temps an additional 10f so I removed the shielding. I notice more power on a colder day than trying to make the intake the absolute coldest. 

3. The more bends you have in the intake and the longer the run the more resistive the intake is. This is why using the short ram intake that sits behind the battery is the best intake design for our car because its not only a short ram its also a cold air which is rare for most cars as you can only have one or the other.

4. If you notice at the end of the video he echos much of what I have been writing regarding calibrated intake tubes and how they work. However he mentions the vanes used in some of them as air straighteners but fails to mention that they are for the calibration. That segmented section in the tube is like having a smaller diameter tube that speeds up the air velocity to cool the MAF wire. Without it you will have a rise in fuel trims. I have data logged this and found it to be true. Later on someone else performed the same experiment adding his own vanes and had a reduction in positive fuel trims.

 Here is where you make power. With the less restive intake it becomes synergistic with anything that makes the engine spin up faster. If you add a less restrictive exhaust and so forth the benefits will be additive. When this happens the car can suck in more air, it will be read properly by the MAF so the ECU can calculate how much fuel to inject along with the timing. The increase in positive fuel trims will be genuine which results in more power. With an uncalibrated MAF tube the ECU reports less air but the 02 sensor reports more air or a leaner mixture. In order to keep the correct AF ratios for emission it will richen the mixture but there is no benefit for performance.

 As far as how much you can get out of a proper intake like adapting the 2ZZ housing. Probably a genuine 3-5 whp. That is a lot for a small engine like this one and it wont be just at peak, it should be across the board which is where it can be felt. There are many dynos that exaggerates their figures and that is why real low figures dont seem like much.

So if I get this right, it would make sense that the bcm cda sealed and insulated type filter system or alternative, piped directly to the back of the battery should bring the coldest air available to the car, and used in conjunction with a Toyota maf pipe, should be the most efficient, even if the overall effect is minor.

It would appear to be the most efficient way of supplying the coldest air available rather than risking an open filter sucking air from inside the engine bay. I too struggle to see how the shields I have seen available would do any sort of job of stopping the air mixing and entering the filter. I have seen some with an entrance at the end, but the surface area on the side is massive and would expect it to be the main drawing area.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 16, 2021, 07:07

Quote from: Dev on August 14, 2021, 19:112. It is known that having a colder air source is beneficial for power. This is true. Having the intake that is sits behind the battery will bring in the lowest intake temps compared to almost all of the aftermarket intakes that make a curve and go to the back of the car near the exhaust components.  Those are some of the worst intake designs and it should be called a hot air intake. However I did not notice much if any difference when it came to added power when I tried to add additional shielding which reduced the air intake temps an additional 10f so I removed the shielding. I notice more power on a colder day than trying to make the intake the absolute coldest. 

3. The more bends you have in the intake and the longer the run the more resistive the intake is. This is why using the short ram intake that sits behind the battery is the best intake design for our car because its not only a short ram its also a cold air which is rare for most cars as you can only have one or the other.

4. If you notice at the end of the video he echos much of what I have been writing regarding calibrated intake tubes and how they work. However he mentions the vanes used in some of them as air straighteners but fails to mention that they are for the calibration. That segmented section in the tube is like having a smaller diameter tube that speeds up the air velocity to cool the MAF wire. Without it you will have a rise in fuel trims. I have data logged this and found it to be true. Later on someone else performed the same experiment adding his own vanes and had a reduction in positive fuel trims.

 Here is where you make power. With the less restive intake it becomes synergistic with anything that makes the engine spin up faster. If you add a less restrictive exhaust and so forth the benefits will be additive. When this happens the car can suck in more air, it will be read properly by the MAF so the ECU can calculate how much fuel to inject along with the timing. The increase in positive fuel trims will be genuine which results in more power. With an uncalibrated MAF tube the ECU reports less air but the 02 sensor reports more air or a leaner mixture. In order to keep the correct AF ratios for emission it will richen the mixture but there is no benefit for performance.

 As far as how much you can get out of a proper intake like adapting the 2ZZ housing. Probably a genuine 3-5 whp. That is a lot for a small engine like this one and it wont be just at peak, it should be across the board which is where it can be felt. There are many dynos that exaggerates their figures and that is why real low figures dont seem like much.

So if I get this right, it would make sense that the bcm cda sealed and insulated type filter system or alternative, piped directly to the back of the battery should bring the coldest air available to the car, and used in conjunction with a Toyota maf pipe, should be the most efficient, even if the overall effect is minor.

It would appear to be the most efficient way of supplying the coldest air available rather than risking an open filter sucking air from inside the engine bay. I too struggle to see how the shields I have seen available would do any sort of job of stopping the air mixing and entering the filter. I have seen some with an entrance at the end, but the surface area on the side is massive and would expect it to be the main drawing area.

It's not just the MAF pipe. That's 90% of it, but if you consider that the stock MAF is attached to the airbox, the airbox itself plays a role in how that air hits the MAF. But as a general rule of thumb, yes, plumbing it to behind the battery 100% keeps intake temps down. With the enclosed Hurricane intake behind the battery with the pipe fed directly by the side vent, and with heat-tape on the pipework, my intake temps generally 2-3deg above ambient at most while driving. At standstill, or traffic driving, my temps were worse than stock. 

Had I used a stock MR2 MAF pipe, my fueling would have been a lot better. 

Remember though that it is in NO way a "ram" effect. 
A) the vent is in a low pressure zone, so air is never forced in. 
B) there is far too much distance and pipework for any ram effect. 
That's all sorted by riding the exhaust pulses. 

The stock intake comes in from the side vent and goes behind the battery, then gets sucked into a pipe in the side panel,which then leads behind the left rear light and into the airbox. So, it IS "cold air" feed the way it is. As cold as it can be pretty much. You could replace the pipe between the MAF and the throttle body and cover it in heat-reflective tape but the effect will be minimal. 
All the hot air is going out the bottom and top engine lid vents, when you're moving. It's not double-backing to behind the battery. 
At standstill, the stock system is quite ingenious as the longest pipe sits in the side panel, shielded by metal, rubber and fabric insulation from the hot engine. It's kind of the best of both worlds.

Quote from: shnazzle on August 16, 2021, 13:22

Quote from: Zspeed on August 16, 2021, 07:07

Quote from: Dev on August 14, 2021, 19:112. It is known that having a colder air source is beneficial for power. This is true. Having the intake that is sits behind the battery will bring in the lowest intake temps compared to almost all of the aftermarket intakes that make a curve and go to the back of the car near the exhaust components.  Those are some of the worst intake designs and it should be called a hot air intake. However I did not notice much if any difference when it came to added power when I tried to add additional shielding which reduced the air intake temps an additional 10f so I removed the shielding. I notice more power on a colder day than trying to make the intake the absolute coldest. 

3. The more bends you have in the intake and the longer the run the more resistive the intake is. This is why using the short ram intake that sits behind the battery is the best intake design for our car because its not only a short ram its also a cold air which is rare for most cars as you can only have one or the other.

4. If you notice at the end of the video he echos much of what I have been writing regarding calibrated intake tubes and how they work. However he mentions the vanes used in some of them as air straighteners but fails to mention that they are for the calibration. That segmented section in the tube is like having a smaller diameter tube that speeds up the air velocity to cool the MAF wire. Without it you will have a rise in fuel trims. I have data logged this and found it to be true. Later on someone else performed the same experiment adding his own vanes and had a reduction in positive fuel trims.

 Here is where you make power. With the less restive intake it becomes synergistic with anything that makes the engine spin up faster. If you add a less restrictive exhaust and so forth the benefits will be additive. When this happens the car can suck in more air, it will be read properly by the MAF so the ECU can calculate how much fuel to inject along with the timing. The increase in positive fuel trims will be genuine which results in more power. With an uncalibrated MAF tube the ECU reports less air but the 02 sensor reports more air or a leaner mixture. In order to keep the correct AF ratios for emission it will richen the mixture but there is no benefit for performance.

 As far as how much you can get out of a proper intake like adapting the 2ZZ housing. Probably a genuine 3-5 whp. That is a lot for a small engine like this one and it wont be just at peak, it should be across the board which is where it can be felt. There are many dynos that exaggerates their figures and that is why real low figures dont seem like much.

So if I get this right, it would make sense that the bcm cda sealed and insulated type filter system or alternative, piped directly to the back of the battery should bring the coldest air available to the car, and used in conjunction with a Toyota maf pipe, should be the most efficient, even if the overall effect is minor.

It would appear to be the most efficient way of supplying the coldest air available rather than risking an open filter sucking air from inside the engine bay. I too struggle to see how the shields I have seen available would do any sort of job of stopping the air mixing and entering the filter. I have seen some with an entrance at the end, but the surface area on the side is massive and would expect it to be the main drawing area.

It's not just the MAF pipe. That's 90% of it, but if you consider that the stock MAF is attached to the airbox, the airbox itself plays a role in how that air hits the MAF. But as a general rule of thumb, yes, plumbing it to behind the battery 100% keeps intake temps down. With the enclosed Hurricane intake behind the battery with the pipe fed directly by the side vent, and with heat-tape on the pipework, my intake temps generally 2-3deg above ambient at most while driving. At standstill, or traffic driving, my temps were worse than stock.

Had I used a stock MR2 MAF pipe, my fueling would have been a lot better.

Remember though that it is in NO way a "ram" effect.
A) the vent is in a low pressure zone, so air is never forced in.
B) there is far too much distance and pipework for any ram effect.
That's all sorted by riding the exhaust pulses.

The stock intake comes in from the side vent and goes behind the battery, then gets sucked into a pipe in the side panel,which then leads behind the left rear light and into the airbox. So, it IS "cold air" feed the way it is. As cold as it can be pretty much. You could replace the pipe between the MAF and the throttle body and cover it in heat-reflective tape but the effect will be minimal.
All the hot air is going out the bottom and top engine lid vents, when you're moving. It's not double-backing to behind the battery.
At standstill, the stock system is quite ingenious as the longest pipe sits in the side panel, shielded by metal, rubber and fabric insulation from the hot engine. It's kind of the best of both worlds.

Seems everyone has had such different experiences with their attempts that opinions vary so much.  The lack of dyno I suppose. I Was hoping there was a consensus that you get the best result from doing something in particular, even if not with particular branded items. The dyno video and other conversations suggest there is some benefit even if small.

@shnazzle you seem to have put a system in yours but are suggesting stock is best, or am I misreading that? I'm not bothered about sound, more about a little value for money boost.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 16, 2021, 07:07

Quote from: Dev on August 14, 2021, 19:112. It is known that having a colder air source is beneficial for power. This is true. Having the intake that is sits behind the battery will bring in the lowest intake temps compared to almost all of the aftermarket intakes that make a curve and go to the back of the car near the exhaust components.  Those are some of the worst intake designs and it should be called a hot air intake. However I did not notice much if any difference when it came to added power when I tried to add additional shielding which reduced the air intake temps an additional 10f so I removed the shielding. I notice more power on a colder day than trying to make the intake the absolute coldest. 

3. The more bends you have in the intake and the longer the run the more resistive the intake is. This is why using the short ram intake that sits behind the battery is the best intake design for our car because its not only a short ram its also a cold air which is rare for most cars as you can only have one or the other.

4. If you notice at the end of the video he echos much of what I have been writing regarding calibrated intake tubes and how they work. However he mentions the vanes used in some of them as air straighteners but fails to mention that they are for the calibration. That segmented section in the tube is like having a smaller diameter tube that speeds up the air velocity to cool the MAF wire. Without it you will have a rise in fuel trims. I have data logged this and found it to be true. Later on someone else performed the same experiment adding his own vanes and had a reduction in positive fuel trims.

 Here is where you make power. With the less restive intake it becomes synergistic with anything that makes the engine spin up faster. If you add a less restrictive exhaust and so forth the benefits will be additive. When this happens the car can suck in more air, it will be read properly by the MAF so the ECU can calculate how much fuel to inject along with the timing. The increase in positive fuel trims will be genuine which results in more power. With an uncalibrated MAF tube the ECU reports less air but the 02 sensor reports more air or a leaner mixture. In order to keep the correct AF ratios for emission it will richen the mixture but there is no benefit for performance.

 As far as how much you can get out of a proper intake like adapting the 2ZZ housing. Probably a genuine 3-5 whp. That is a lot for a small engine like this one and it wont be just at peak, it should be across the board which is where it can be felt. There are many dynos that exaggerates their figures and that is why real low figures dont seem like much.

So if I get this right, it would make sense that the bcm cda sealed and insulated type filter system or alternative, piped directly to the back of the battery should bring the coldest air available to the car, and used in conjunction with a Toyota maf pipe, should be the most efficient, even if the overall effect is minor.

It would appear to be the most efficient way of supplying the coldest air available rather than risking an open filter sucking air from inside the engine bay. I too struggle to see how the shields I have seen available would do any sort of job of stopping the air mixing and entering the filter. I have seen some with an entrance at the end, but the surface area on the side is massive and would expect it to be the main drawing area.

It is my opinion that this using the MAF pipe along with the placing the filter behind the battery should yield power. Not much but enough that it matters and can be felt. I believe it will correctly report the correct amount of air just like the OEM intake system in the box. It also reduces the weight of the entire intake system and it will sound nice also. Regarding  cold air I have tested both the OEM box against the filter behind the battery.  The OEM box has more heat soak and higher IAT however at idle it is less than behind the battery.  Once you take off the intake behind the battery falls quickly and is less than the OEM and that is what matters more if cold air is your goal. 

 However if using the 2ZZ MAF pipe there might be further gains as it was reported in the video.

 That is why I am trying to get someone to do it to see what happens. If the video is correct you should certainly feel it even if it is half the power that was made on the dyno. 


 

 I will make one statement that goes in contrast with the leave it alone crowd.

You don't know unless you try. Just because others have done this improperly in the past  doesn't mean the proper way of doing it using the MAF tube will result in the same outcome. 

 I think the video is genuine but at the same time I think the hp numbers are a little more inflated but it doesn't matter because there is a baseline with the OEM system which shows that there are real gains. 

With the leave it alone philosophy you will never know unless an attempt has been made. Either way it is fun to find out especially when it has already been done by one person with actual dyno numbers.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 16, 2021, 20:15@shnazzle you seem to have put a system in yours but are suggesting stock is best, or am I misreading that? I'm not bothered about sound, more about a little value for money boost.

I have indeed.
- Stock
- Stock + Panel
- Stock + markiii elbow pipe + panel
- OEM MAF pipe + cone
- Hurricane enclosed Lotus intake with direct feed from side vent
- piggyback ecu to fake MAF signal (electronic MAF mod).

Stock + panel + markiii elbow seems to be the sweet spot for the least money/effort.
The rest is just noise. Beautiful noise. Addictive noise. But just noise. And imperfect fueling.

There is 100% merit in experimenting. Look at "Cap's MAF Mod". Worked out well. Gains in the mids. And using the 2zz oem MAF. Proven gains in mids (same effect).

Wrt to the 2zz maf adapter from Danny's video that needs re-testing.
- tests against stock using same MAF
- tests using various cone filters and also stock box + panel filter.

Danny has done another video. It's sort of what I was expecting and the reason why I mentioned the enclosed filters.

The difference in air temperatures he mentions are massive.

https://youtu.be/fZMt34ZS6W0

It was what I suspected all along. The tests he was doing with the lid open and forced air intake weren't real life.
I had exactly the same experience when I put my cone filter behind the battery - it was great until the engine got up to temperature.

I do wonder, however, if I was to design an intake that took all of the air coming in the side pod and throw it through a CDA. You'd need to open up the intake from the other side, because the engine bay would get no air in.

My issue with the Toyota designed intake is that yes, it works. But the air has to travel an awfully long way to get to the engine. Any front engined car has the intake as short as feasibly possible.

How do other mid engined cars do it?

I think the implementation could have been much better but I do think the shielding should work.


1. The tube needs to be longer and it should bend downwards in an angle closer to the vent in the path of getting air from the vent. What is making the air hotter is not just the migration of hot air to the front its also the radiator pipe just underneath where he is sucking up hot air. I did it kind of like his way and the IATs were higher.

2. Another reason why his IAT are higher is primarily because he has no battery in that location. The battery acts like a shield from the migration of hot air and creates a pocket of cold air from where the filter can draw from like the OEM intake.  Now he has to build a shield to compensate for it but its not a very good one. I built a better one that brought the temps to near ambient but removed it and now my IATs are just 10f over and I felt no difference in power. My ambient at idle at a stop light would creep up to 20f but will drop rapidly once I got going with in a minute. The OEM air box might be a little more stable in this respect but it takes forever for the temps to fall and they get progressively higher the longer you drive it.

I have tried many different ways and lengths of tube and it makes a big difference where the filter is situated especially if it is not in the path of the side vent air. I found that if the filter is closer to the port hole where the OEM air box gets its air from the side vent like how the car was designed the intake is much cooler. That filter he is using is just too short and large at the mouth.

There are ways he can fix this buy using a 15 degree silicon coupler from the throttle body so the tube is pointing downwards at an angle and to lengthen the tube.

This is how my set up is and after doing many data logs the air remains cool even on the hottest days or driven for a long time.
IMG_0026.jpeg

Quote from: Dev on August 17, 2021, 15:54This is how my set up is and after doing many data logs the air remains cool even on the hottest days or driven for a long time.
IMG_0026.jpeg

Interesting indeed. That's how I had mine setup and it was terrible. My cone (K&N) was very similar too.
Although I used a MAF adapter (which I think was probably part of the problem) because it didn't have the vanes.

Is there any reason why you couldn't put the cone even further into the intake? I mean, what else is that intake keeping cool? The battery?

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 17, 2021, 16:08

Quote from: Dev on August 17, 2021, 15:54This is how my set up is and after doing many data logs the air remains cool even on the hottest days or driven for a long time.
IMG_0026.jpeg

Interesting indeed. That's how I had mine setup and it was terrible. My cone (K&N) was very similar too.
Although I used a MAF adapter (which I think was probably part of the problem) because it didn't have the vanes.

Is there any reason why you couldn't put the cone even further into the intake? I mean, what else is that intake keeping cool? The battery?

 The intake has a very large bell opening from which the air filter is attached. What is keeping the intake cold is the pocket of cold air that comes from the side vent where it is directed at the porthole from which the OEM intake gets its cold air. The air filter is almost touching this hole.
 I have gone though so many intake tubes after my 2ZZ swap. I was trying to solve both a reduction of IAT and bogging issue I had when the car was cold.   
 Once I got a proper calibrated intake tube with the vanes it made a big difference. No more bogging and the car felt much more responsive like OEM quality.
 I got the idea from the Celica boards where they would cut out their 2ZZ intake tubes and use them to solve their issues and to improve performance until Cobb tuning made a calibrated tube that was meant for the WRX that used a similar MAF but had the exact same dimension of the tube and vanes.
 I also originally had a K&N type of oil gauze filter and it made things worse. What happens is a bit of the oil mist comes off the filter over time and coats the MAF sensor hot wire which attracts dirt. What this does insulate the MAF hot wire making things worse with its readings. I then went to a foam filter and eventually the best option was a dry flow filter that uses no oil and it filters better. The only downside is to clean it you vacuum the outside and it has a limited life span that has to be replaced.

Sounds like we could do with someone designing one of these that could fix opposite the oem intake feed by the vent and shutting off the oem one.   Maybe including a second hole/pipe that allows air into the engine bay so it can still do the cooling job.

Anyone got any skills for this?

Quote from: Zspeed on August 19, 2021, 06:32Sounds like we could do with someone designing one of these that could fix opposite the oem intake feed by the vent and shutting off the oem one.   Maybe including a second hole/pipe that allows air into the engine bay so it can still do the cooling job.

Anyone got any skills for this?

I could 3D print that in ABS, but as above, I'm concerned that if you remove all the cooling to the engine bay, other parts will overheat (like the battery)

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 07:37

Quote from: Zspeed on August 19, 2021, 06:32Sounds like we could do with someone designing one of these that could fix opposite the oem intake feed by the vent and shutting off the oem one.   Maybe including a second hole/pipe that allows air into the engine bay so it can still do the cooling job.

Anyone got any skills for this?

I could 3D print that in ABS, but as above, I'm concerned that if you remove all the cooling to the engine bay, other parts will overheat (like the battery)

Yes I understand, could you do it with 2 feeds so there is still a feed running into engine bay?

Like this

I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 10:30I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

From what I saw Danny just had a open cone filter pushed up against the inlet.

I reckon with a designed cover with two ports, one the right size to feed straight into an enclosed filter and one to feed the engine bay it may be possible to control the AIT a bit more. 

However it may be just over engineering, and a suitable hose with v stack on the end cable tied in place will do the same job as the flow coming in the vent will prevent warm air from the engine bay entering it unless at standstill.

How much does it cost to 3D print stuff?

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 10:30I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

Was his air intake restrictive? I didn't catch that part. If so something is clearly wrong with his design.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 19, 2021, 06:32Sounds like we could do with someone designing one of these that could fix opposite the oem intake feed by the vent and shutting off the oem one.   Maybe including a second hole/pipe that allows air into the engine bay so it can still do the cooling job.

Anyone got any skills for this?

  There have been a few that have tried something like that. I have added a snorkel to the side vent that directed air on top of the filter. It did not make any difference. I blocked off the side vent from the outside to see what happens and the car still received cold air so I determined that the air is also coming from underneath.
 
As far as the port hole that takes in cold air for the OEM intake it does it actively only when the car sucks in air. The air does not go though that hole passively so it does not need to be plugged. 

I don't recall him thinking it was restrictive....he was pleased with gains.  One of the other racers in the Championship said he has more power than Danny achieved, but other than a Zero manifold, I don't know what he uses.
Said racer stuffed Danny up the rear end into a corner at Silverstone & Danny's is quite badly damaged, - he's not sure if he'll be continuing.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 19, 2021, 11:33

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 10:30I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

From what I saw Danny just had a open cone filter pushed up against the inlet.

I reckon with a designed cover with two ports, one the right size to feed straight into an enclosed filter and one to feed the engine bay it may be possible to control the AIT a bit more. 

However it may be just over engineering, and a suitable hose with v stack on the end cable tied in place will do the same job as the flow coming in the vent will prevent warm air from the engine bay entering it unless at standstill.

How much does it cost to 3D print stuff?

The problem with his intake is being in the wrong position.  It needs to bend downwards in the path of the pocket of air like mine. Also it needed the shielding to create that pocket of air from escaping. 
If you notice in that video where he used smoke the shielding kicked back the smoke backwards forming a barrier of cold air.
I tried it his way with a shorter design that was straight and it produced higher IAT. 

I wouldn't over engineer it. This intake has been used on almost all the 2ZZ swapped cars for over 16 years and some 1ZZ cars also.
Given the proper tune it made very good power and there was no issues with heat. Some of these cars were raced and have gone to the drag strip making good times. If there was an issue with this design regarding heat or restrictiveness it would have been abandoned.

However if you run the OEM ECU then you will run into the problem of not optimizing power and that has more to do with the vanes. 

There was a company that made this kind of intake for this car and I believe they still do but it is expensive.

It was sold by Weapon R.
kI5rgw2.jpg

 I did not like the design because it is not long enough but to their credit they designed a shield for it that bolts onto the fire wall and it worked very well and you could fit the battery.
-96-900x600.jpg

Quote from: Gaz mr-s on August 19, 2021, 14:40I don't recall him thinking it was restrictive....he was pleased with gains.  One of the other racers in the Championship said he has more power than Danny achieved, but other than a Zero manifold, I don't know what he uses.
Said racer stuffed Danny up the rear end into a corner at Silverstone & Danny's is quite badly damaged, - he's not sure if he'll be continuing.

 It was probably the intake design that caused the crash. Joking of course. 
 Its too bad and I hope he was able to log temps for the intake to see if they came down.
   I am still not satisfied with the way he was trying to reduce his intake temps but I suppose shielding is better than no shielding. 
 
The one thing he got right in my opinion was trying the 2ZZ intake housing. I had this in mind for a long time because I believed it might actually make power and with what Danny did shows me that it might be the case. All that is needed is for one of you to try it. You don't need a dyno, with the power he made you should be able to feel it.



 

Quote from: Dev on August 19, 2021, 13:48

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 10:30I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

Was his air intake restrictive? I didn't catch that part. If so something is clearly wrong with his design.

He was getting heat soak. So he bought a cheap ebay air intake that has a small hose coming out of it.
He talks about it early on, but it's the silver thing
(https://i.imgur.com/k9kEOsc.png)

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 15:42

Quote from: Dev on August 19, 2021, 13:48

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 10:30I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

Was his air intake restrictive? I didn't catch that part. If so something is clearly wrong with his design.

He was getting heat soak. So he bought a cheap ebay air intake that has a small hose coming out of it.
He talks about it early on, but it's the silver thing
(https://i.imgur.com/k9kEOsc.png)

Thats not really going to help.
 That silver hose thing looks like its coming from the side vent to shower the filter. I tried something like that and it didn't make any difference.
 If anything it probably blocks the main path of air by having the tubing being in its own way.

Quote from: Dev on August 19, 2021, 16:29

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 15:42

Quote from: Dev on August 19, 2021, 13:48

Quote from: The Other Stu on August 19, 2021, 10:30I'm guessing that was the issue with Danny's intake. It's very restrictive. You want as much air as you can getting in.

The OEM intake is like 3 or 4 inches diameter all the way from the wheel arch (especially if you have a Markiii elbow, so you don't get the "in and out")

Was his air intake restrictive? I didn't catch that part. If so something is clearly wrong with his design.

He was getting heat soak. So he bought a cheap ebay air intake that has a small hose coming out of it.
He talks about it early on, but it's the silver thing
(https://i.imgur.com/k9kEOsc.png)

Thats not really going to help.
 That silver hose thing looks like its coming from the side vent to shower the filter. I tried something like that and it didn't make any difference.
 If anything it probably blocks the main path of air by having the tubing being in its own way.

Indeed. I have this, with a velocity stack on the vent side, but only because the Hurricane is an enclosed filter so the pipe connected to the filter housing

Guys, is it important to set the Maf a particular distance from the throttle body when putting these together?

I've seen 12" minimum mentioned more than once. 

Mine is at about 9 1/2" currently with no issues. actually when it was shorter it was at about 6" and no issues. I would say you don't want it right by the throttle body. If there is going to be a problem with the length you can adjust it using silicone couplers of the right length. 

Here is one of the intakes filters I used in the past.
pic00001.jpg
weaponrdragonshield.jpg
weaponrramairkit.jpg

It seemed like a good idea at the time but it was a failure. I felt that I lost power even though the air was cold. The filter was dry foam and not very restrictive but the shield was. 
 
It is better to have the filter open so it can suck in as much air without barriers in its way. This trumps any kind of cold air advantage. Unless your IATs are very high you will not notice much difference with a 10-20F reduction so its not worth chasing ambient air by trying to divert air or adding a lot of shielding.  As long as you can get the filter in the pocket with the battery as a shield you will get cold air while the car is moving.

Quote from: Dev on August 20, 2021, 16:04Mine is at about 9 1/2" currently with no issues. actually when it was shorter it was at about 6" and no issues. I would say you don't want it right by the throttle body. If there is going to be a problem with the length you can adjust it using silicone couplers of the right length. 

Here is one of the intakes filters I used in the past.
pic00001.jpg
weaponrdragonshield.jpg
weaponrramairkit.jpg

It seemed like a good idea at the time but it was a failure. I felt that I lost power even though the air was cold. The filter was dry foam and not very restrictive but the shield was. 
 
It is better to have the filter open so it can suck in as much air without barriers in its way. This trumps any kind of cold air advantage. Unless your IATs are very high you will not notice much difference with a 10-20F reduction so its not worth chasing ambient air by trying to divert air or adding a lot of shielding.  As long as you can get the filter in the pocket with the battery as a shield you will get cold air while the car is moving.

That's a bit of bling right there. Bet they sold loads.

I have a new filter on the way, just need to sort some hose out. Will test it let you know how it compares to my stock airbox with 2zz maf

 Make sure that the intake sits behind the battery and is by the port hole closest to the fender.

I'm really interested in the way this develops, although my car really doesn't need to be any noisier, I do like the idea of a cheap power boost that doesn't count as an engine mod.

Quote from: DanRS4x on August 22, 2021, 08:42I'm really interested in the way this develops, although my car really doesn't need to be any noisier, I do like the idea of a cheap power boost that doesn't count as an engine mod.

Well dont worry as the saga continues!!

https://youtu.be/LW-ObX0I7Fg

He is getting there now 😁

Its good to see he finally figured it out and abandoned the vent tube.
However the placement of the air filter could be better. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it made.

Quote from: Dev on August 22, 2021, 21:51Its good to see he finally figured it out and abandoned the vent tube.
However the placement of the air filter could be better. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it made.

When I look along the car I can understand about the low pressure point.

It doesn't look like air would be particularly forced in like if they were at the front of the car. 

Have you ever looked into whether the extended side scoops actually create much more pressure so you might get a ram effect?

Quote from: Zspeed on August 23, 2021, 07:11

Quote from: Dev on August 22, 2021, 21:51Its good to see he finally figured it out and abandoned the vent tube.
However the placement of the air filter could be better. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it made.

When I look along the car I can understand about the low pressure point.

It doesn't look like air would be particularly forced in like if they were at the front of the car. 

Have you ever looked into whether the extended side scoops actually create much more pressure so you might get a ram effect?

 The amount air that is required and the speed necessary for it to happen makes it a near impossibility. Not just for adding anything to our car but for most cars and motorcycles that have it in their design as its mostly a gimmick or it kind of works but at very high speed and the amount of power is not much considering the displacement of the engine. You would also need a very large opening many times the size of the intake tube so the volume of air can be compressed to be useful. Pressure is no good if you don't have volume.
 
When the aftermarket industry uses the term short ram air intake it is purely for marketing. What they are actually describing is a less restrictive intake making it easier for the engine to suck in air however you are only as good as what comes after it meaning a free flow exhaust system.

 The only thing that is of concern is creating a pocket of cold air from where the intake can draw from without mixing too much of the hot air from the engine bay. This is true with the OEM intake as there is a good reason why there is a port hole on the side of the fender rather then the OEM having a duct directly I the path of air pressure. This is so you do not bring in more dirt and contaminants directly.

 When we add our aftermarket intake directly the path of this cold air it will require more servicing but its really not that bad.
 

Quote from: Dev on August 23, 2021, 15:36

Quote from: Zspeed on August 23, 2021, 07:11

Quote from: Dev on August 22, 2021, 21:51Its good to see he finally figured it out and abandoned the vent tube.
However the placement of the air filter could be better. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it made.

When I look along the car I can understand about the low pressure point.

It doesn't look like air would be particularly forced in like if they were at the front of the car. 

Have you ever looked into whether the extended side scoops actually create much more pressure so you might get a ram effect?

 The amount air that is required and the speed necessary for it to happen makes it a near impossibility. Not just for adding anything to our car but for most cars and motorcycles that have it in their design as its mostly a gimmick or it kind of works but at very high speed and the amount of power is not much considering the displacement of the engine. You would also need a very large opening many times the size of the intake tube so the volume of air can be compressed to be useful. Pressure is no good if you don't have volume.
 
When the aftermarket industry uses the term short ram air intake it is purely for marketing. What they are actually describing is a less restrictive intake making it easier for the engine to suck in air however you are only as good as what comes after it meaning a free flow exhaust system.

 The only thing that is of concern is creating a pocket of cold air from where the intake can draw from without mixing too much of the hot air from the engine bay. This is true with the OEM intake as there is a good reason why there is a port hole on the side of the fender rather then the OEM having a duct directly I the path of air pressure. This is so you do not bring in more dirt and contaminants directly.

 When we add our aftermarket intake directly the path of this cold air it will require more servicing but its really not that bad.
 

I did wonder. Appreciate your info

Quote from: Dev on August 23, 2021, 15:36

Quote from: Zspeed on August 23, 2021, 07:11

Quote from: Dev on August 22, 2021, 21:51Its good to see he finally figured it out and abandoned the vent tube.
However the placement of the air filter could be better. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it made.

When I look along the car I can understand about the low pressure point.

It doesn't look like air would be particularly forced in like if they were at the front of the car. 

Have you ever looked into whether the extended side scoops actually create much more pressure so you might get a ram effect?

 The amount air that is required and the speed necessary for it to happen makes it a near impossibility. Not just for adding anything to our car but for most cars and motorcycles that have it in their design as its mostly a gimmick or it kind of works but at very high speed and the amount of power is not much considering the displacement of the engine. You would also need a very large opening many times the size of the intake tube so the volume of air can be compressed to be useful. Pressure is no good if you don't have volume.
 
When the aftermarket industry uses the term short ram air intake it is purely for marketing. What they are actually describing is a less restrictive intake making it easier for the engine to suck in air however you are only as good as what comes after it meaning a free flow exhaust system.

 The only thing that is of concern is creating a pocket of cold air from where the intake can draw from without mixing too much of the hot air from the engine bay. This is true with the OEM intake as there is a good reason why there is a port hole on the side of the fender rather then the OEM having a duct directly I the path of air pressure. This is so you do not bring in more dirt and contaminants directly.

 When we add our aftermarket intake directly the path of this cold air it will require more servicing but its really not that bad.
 

What about a velocity stack?

I think I remember Danny mentioning the hybrid filter that produces the best result features a v stack. Do you they really do much here? I believe the claim is it reduces turbulence but surely the filter will do this with the flow management it does anyway.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 23, 2021, 20:22

Quote from: Dev on August 23, 2021, 15:36

Quote from: Zspeed on August 23, 2021, 07:11

Quote from: Dev on August 22, 2021, 21:51Its good to see he finally figured it out and abandoned the vent tube.
However the placement of the air filter could be better. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference it made.

When I look along the car I can understand about the low pressure point.

It doesn't look like air would be particularly forced in like if they were at the front of the car. 

Have you ever looked into whether the extended side scoops actually create much more pressure so you might get a ram effect?

 The amount air that is required and the speed necessary for it to happen makes it a near impossibility. Not just for adding anything to our car but for most cars and motorcycles that have it in their design as its mostly a gimmick or it kind of works but at very high speed and the amount of power is not much considering the displacement of the engine. You would also need a very large opening many times the size of the intake tube so the volume of air can be compressed to be useful. Pressure is no good if you don't have volume.
 
When the aftermarket industry uses the term short ram air intake it is purely for marketing. What they are actually describing is a less restrictive intake making it easier for the engine to suck in air however you are only as good as what comes after it meaning a free flow exhaust system.

 The only thing that is of concern is creating a pocket of cold air from where the intake can draw from without mixing too much of the hot air from the engine bay. This is true with the OEM intake as there is a good reason why there is a port hole on the side of the fender rather then the OEM having a duct directly I the path of air pressure. This is so you do not bring in more dirt and contaminants directly.

 When we add our aftermarket intake directly the path of this cold air it will require more servicing but its really not that bad.
 

What about a velocity stack?

I think I remember Danny mentioning the hybrid filter that produces the best result features a v stack. Do you they really do much here? I believe the claim is it reduces turbulence but surely the filter will do this with the flow management it does anyway.

I do believe velocity stacks do help. How much I don't really know. My Cobb intake has a large velocity stack where the filter attaches. Unlike other filters I have used in the past the Cobb required one with a very large mouth to go over it.  I was very happy with the design and I think if you cut out the 2ZZ MAF tube it wouldn't hurt trying to find a filter with an integrated velocity stack. 

Quote from: Dev on August 20, 2021, 20:16Make sure that the intake sits behind the battery and is by the port hole closest to the fender.

Well it's in. 

I still have my exhaust problem unfortunately, but with the Ramair Enclosed Air filter and 2zz maf setup it seems power delivery is a bit smoother.  This maybe just be due to current conditions though as the weather has now turned.

The Zero cat pipe should finally be with me next week, so will be looking to set this asap.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 29, 2021, 21:13

Quote from: Dev on August 20, 2021, 20:16Make sure that the intake sits behind the battery and is by the port hole closest to the fender.

Well it's in. 

I still have my exhaust problem unfortunately, but with the Ramair Enclosed Air filter and 2zz maf setup it seems power delivery is a bit smoother.  This maybe just be due to current conditions though as the weather has now turned.

The Zero cat pipe should finally be with me next week, so will be looking to set this asap.

I see there is someone else waiting on a zero cat pipe, im heading into my 7th week and beginning to get fed up waiting.

Quote from: Zspeed on August 29, 2021, 21:13

Quote from: Dev on August 20, 2021, 20:16Make sure that the intake sits behind the battery and is by the port hole closest to the fender.

Well it's in. 

I still have my exhaust problem unfortunately, but with the Ramair Enclosed Air filter and 2zz maf setup it seems power delivery is a bit smoother.  This maybe just be due to current conditions though as the weather has now turned.

The Zero cat pipe should finally be with me next week, so will be looking to set this asap.

 When you say enclosed air filter how is that done.  Do you have the filter inclosed in some sort of shied?

Quote from: Iain on August 29, 2021, 21:16

Quote from: Zspeed on August 29, 2021, 21:13

Quote from: Dev on August 20, 2021, 20:16Make sure that the intake sits behind the battery and is by the port hole closest to the fender.

Well it's in. 

I still have my exhaust problem unfortunately, but with the Ramair Enclosed Air filter and 2zz maf setup it seems power delivery is a bit smoother.  This maybe just be due to current conditions though as the weather has now turned.

The Zero cat pipe should finally be with me next week, so will be looking to set this asap.

I see there is someone else waiting on a zero cat pipe, im heading into my 7th week and beginning to get fed up waiting.

Blimey, that must be longer than me. I expect you will get yours at the same time next week as Kevin said he had decided to do a batch together once the cats had arrived. I assumed he was doing them for stock but maybe there are a few of us.

Quote from: Dev on August 29, 2021, 21:53

Quote from: Zspeed on August 29, 2021, 21:13

Quote from: Dev on August 20, 2021, 20:16Make sure that the intake sits behind the battery and is by the port hole closest to the fender.

Well it's in. 

I still have my exhaust problem unfortunately, but with the Ramair Enclosed Air filter and 2zz maf setup it seems power delivery is a bit smoother.  This maybe just be due to current conditions though as the weather has now turned.

The Zero cat pipe should finally be with me next week, so will be looking to set this asap.

 When you say enclosed air filter how is that done.  Do you have the filter inclosed in some sort of shied?

It's like the bmc cda filter, the filter is inside a shaped sealed casing with the correct sized outlet for the maf to fit. 

It has a slightly larger inlet, about 80mm which you can attach a duct to, but I felt as I have managed to get the filter end right up against the oe duct there is no point after our conversation about the low pressure zone.

This way the whole filter casing is tucked behind the battery and will be exposed to the air flow so can't imagine much heat soak possible. I will see how it feels to the touch after a good drive. I think you could also wrap with heat reflective material without a problem.

@Dev for your info. I'll get a pic in situ if I get time to take the battery out again.

If it works great.  I have tried something like that with a shield that incases the air filter.  It does reduce temps however I found in my use case that it was restricting. After removing the incasement the filter was able to draw in more air and the car felt more powerful. Even though the intake temps were higher it made better power because it was not restricted. My car is a 2ZZ which takes in more air so it could be different with the 1ZZ.
 
The best way to log intake temps is though a ODB2 device.

 
The best way to log intake temps is though a ODB2 device.






[/quote]
I just realised I have one already but the instructions are a little bit light. Is there a technical term that they may have used instead for air intake temp?

Quote from: Zspeed on September 26, 2021, 22:08The best way to log intake temps is though a ODB2 device.

I just realised I have one already but the instructions are a little bit light. Is there a technical term that they may have used instead for air intake temp?
[/quote]

 Each one does it differently. I remember one of them had the abbreviation of IA.
 The best way to know is to observe values when you are driving. If they go up when you are at a stop and then gradually go down its probably that one especially if the values look like typical temp values. The one I have has intake temp programed into the skin.