We´ve all read about the horrible scuttle shake of cabrios. Even in tests of the ZZw30 although it is a relatively good example.
In the context of the conceptual problem of a cabrio with traditional doors it is a small wonder and compliment to engineers that most cabrios do not twist the doors out of the catches.
This morning took a photo illustrating the issue:
(https://i.ibb.co/2sny9md/Deurdingetje5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sny9md)
Easy to see that ALL of the stiffness is in the floor which is basically a corrugated plane.
Also easy to see what solidly locking the doors in the frame would add: Structure; structural form stiffness.
Enter Dev´s door spacers and the TRD door lock ´riders´.
Although both add rigidity to the door in it´s frame, they do a different thing at a different hight in the door.
It remained to be seen how they compliment each other or not. I decided to have a go and see it ;)
It has been measured that Dev´s spacers reduce the distortion of the tub by 50%.
I have fitted the TRD riders in addition to them and they reduced the remaining distortion agaín by almost half.
The face of the open door shows clearly how both fittings locate the door at different heights, complimenting locations.
This morning I did a test drive over the roughest roads in the area.
The full range between an intricate multi layered patchwork of tarmac generations and cobble stones rearranged by tractors pulling overloaded trailers on supersingle tyres: An assortment of surfaces that make your technical empathy crínge.
Also took a bewildering variety of traffic humps & hurdles at various angles.
Verdict: Yes, it is also notable when driving. Not just in less shake, rattle & roll over rough surfaces but also when changing direction of course.
Imo it is worth fitting bóth.
On a side note, the resident gf came to have a look and observed they look really nice. Vastly better than the standard loop.
I said that it is hidden inside a closed door. But évery time you get in or out you see it it, looking better. Ok, I agree, it does.
Not sure that I have heard of TRD door riders
(https://i.ibb.co/dQ6xPSr/Deurdingetje1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dQ6xPSr)
Where did you get them from?
I also noticed that the fender braces are adding in a bit stiffness too. So it might be of interest.
Quote from: Nvy on August 30, 2022, 16:42Where did you get them from?
Kabuki-jp JDM store Japan on ebay.
QuoteI also noticed that the fender braces are adding in a bit stiffness too. So it might be of interest.
Those brace the door hinges on the A pillar to the fender wall. It is forward of the tub. Does not address the fundamental issue illustrated by both doors open; which is only the floor connecting the A pillars with the B pillars.
Until the door is shut so solidly on the B pillar that the chassis flex loads the door hinges there is no sense in bracing those. If there is at all in light of the extra weight. It is probably a bracing which blew over from fixed roof cars. Like the TRD door thingies for a cabrio blowing over the other way. Imo
@Joesson was spot on concerning that.
Back to the door thingies; Dev´s and TRD´s: None too costly, super-easy to DIY install, weigh less than a cup of coffee and totally, méasurably! stabilize the tub.
I was trying to find the thread, but I bought some TRD-like spacers, similar to your pics from a guy who maybe replicated the TRD ones ....cost ~£120 for the pair
Quote from: Gibla on August 30, 2022, 17:09I was trying to find the thread, but I bought some TRD-like spacers, similar to your pics from a guy who maybe replicated the TRD ones ....cost ~£120 for the pair
The 3D printed black plastic spacers?
Quote from: Gibla on August 30, 2022, 17:17Yes @Petrus
@J88TEO fitted those. No measurement as of yet. Maybe one for you?!
His photos and the pricing pushed me over the threshold of buying the TRD ones. The latter are peanuts more for me and ever so much more trick and bling. I always thought they would compliment the lower placed Delrin blocks very well because they do something different and are higher up.
I was positively surprised about the effect of Dev´s spacers and even more chuffed now with the bling TRD ´sliders´.
Here a short commercial video. The crux; how is wórks is from 01:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb7hKPY_oI4
In the metal it is even more clear and trick, The black plastics on the door contact the ditto inserts in de door slider and the set rides up the inner ramp, closing the space between door and B-pillar.
This and the lower placed Delrin blocks by Dev create a near solid four point location of the door in the frame with the door latch locking it in place. Before the door was basically floating in the rubbers. You can test this by pushing the closed door (without spacers) against the rubbers. This shows that OEM the door adds no structural stiffness against the chassis twisting; it is only the floor.
It is also illustrated by some members observing the door rattling on the jamb as the rubbers age.
Interesting findings, I have both types, the TRD knock-offs, and Dev's door inserts, but have never tried both at the same time....this will be attended to asap :)
Both types were initially quite impressive, but for whatever reason(especially the Dev variety) gradually increased the # of rattles ***, general buzziness, difficulty opening + closing doors (usually when v hot ...yes even in darkest Wales) and so they(Devs) were confined to the 'scrap' box out of sight out of mind. So thx for your ongoing inquisitive nature sir 8)
*** to such an extent I thought the door hinges may ultimately break (maybe a false impression), but that was my perception, or just maybe the extra noise was generated from the driver's side upper front strut brace/shock mount ......difficult to pinpoint, just increasingly annoying so ditched 'em.
Odd, the rattle. Dev´s keep the door under ´load´ between rubbers, the spacer and the latch. The hinges should thus have léss play to rattle.
The above also sheds light on the difference of the Delrin blocks and the TRD slide. The sliding up it´s internal ramp takes up the space laterally, thus nót pushing against the rubbers thus not on the latch.
TRD came up with this to make SURE that the unlatching the door would not be impaired.
This is why I went for the combination.
- Dev´s takes up space at the lower part and as you noticed involves púshing action in order to ´load´ the rubbers and latch.
- TRD´s only takes up any lateral space higher up, at the latch; between door face and B pillar.
The black ones at the latch are I think akin Dev´s at the location of the TRD´s. Like Dev´s they take up the play by manual action.
Personally I think the Delrin spacers delightfully simple and effective with the drawback of a door under tension.
The TRD solution is the opposite; a mechanical complication with the added feature of not putting any load on the latch.
As to the pricing I think the TRD door stabilizers are relatively cheap because of the quality, the mechanical nature and the number of parts.
Whether one wants to spend the money is a different issue:
Dev´s áre cheaper and thus I pounced on those first. Afterwards did not push for the TRDs because I thought that overkill. Well, it is not :)) Imo.
upping this impression yet again
*** to such an extent I thought the door hinges may ultimately break (maybe a false impression), but that was my perception, or just maybe the extra noise was generated from the driver's side upper front strut brace/shock mount ......difficult to pinpoint, just increasingly annoying so ditched 'em <<<<< so not contained in the door rubbers as such
but have just reinstalled into one of my cars that also has the faux TRD .....very curious to see if your findings can be replicated
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 10:18but have just reinstalled into one of my cars that also has the faux TRD .....very curious to see if your findings can be replicated
´Faux TRD´ is imo a misnomer as functionally it is akin Dev´s too, cóntrary to the TRD which Toyota developed to nót load the latch.
As such you may very well increase the issues you experienced. As to increased rigidity I expect a limited increase as it is more of the same with an extra contact point.
So very interesting to read méasurements akin the youtube video.
None fitted can be emulated by both doors open.
In my non-Scientific manner, I have just driven an ~30 miles over largely poor UK 'B' roads and noticed an overall improvement ....but really too difficult for me to quantify.
Scuttle shake and rattling from 'below' seemed to be eliminated completely,however, not all good, the amount and intensity of roof rattling seems to have increased somewhat(possibly to be expected if floor area is 'reinforced' )
Solution :- leave the hardtop roof off , and put the soft-top down, et voila all noises disappear ;D
ps I hope my new carbon- fibre hardtop improves these noise issues, or survives what I guesstimate to be increased *forces* in that area
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 12:36not all good, the amount and intensity of roof rattling seems to have increased somewhat(possibly to be expected if floor area is 'reinforced'
Makes sense no?! Without firmly connecting the two, the tub has more flex, conformity and the door is ´floating´ in the rubbers.
In both cases anything not firmly connected will now get more shaken by the road vibrations transferred.
For those who missed the order of twist/flex: With the Dev + TRD it is in the order of reducing 5 mm. to 1 mm.
Bottom line, happy that you are happy with a stiffer tub.
Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 13:47Bottom line, happy that you are happy with a stiffer tub.
Indeed a very useful exercise + at least I have found a use for the discarded 'bars of white soap' that were consigned to a dusty drawer destined for oblivion or a repurposed Christmas gift to some distant acquaintance ;D
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 14:31Indeed a very useful exercise + at least I have found a use for the discarded 'bars of white soap' that were consigned to a dusty drawer destined for oblivion or a repurposed Christmas gift to some distant acquaintance ;D
You are btw uniquely ´qualified´ to make back to back on the road comparisons. I have only hard, dull measurements before and after at my disposal which are often surprisingly tricky to make ceteris paribus. This ones is as simple as it comes with not other factors involved.
Back to back on the road is véry informative.
Yep, currently have(but not for very much longer)
2 cars with the 'Full Monty' ie with both TRD + Dev
1 car with Dev only (the rebought yellow one)
1 car with TRD only
whether or not my detection meter will work accurately I dunno, but I will try to do a back to back comparison of the 3 states (luckily, they have mostly an identical suspension age + spec along with front strut bracing via Carolynne
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 14:58Yep, currently have(but not for very much longer)
2 cars with the 'Full Monty' ie with both TRD + Dev
1 car with Dev only (the rebought yellow one)
1 car with TRD only
whether or not my detection meter will work accurately I dunno, but I will try to do a back to back comparison of the 3 states (luckily, they have mostly an identical suspension age + spec along with front strut bracing via Carolynne
Please distinguish TRD from the black 3D Delrin.
Btw, I don´t know which cars you have but there are differences between pfl and fl. Per example the TRD / Snelbaard front lower brace is for the PFL, the PFL is OEM already likewise braced whereas the latest version had a quite comprehensive upgrade there.
^^^^ understood + only using 'TRD' for convenience ''Faux TRD'' if you prefer :P
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 15:31^^^^ understood + only using 'TRD' for convenience ''Faux TRD'' if you prefer :P
I prefer in the service of clarity but the bloke has a name no?! Vastly better still; after all he came up with his different version.
Bottom line being the conceptual issue illustrated and three different improvements explained 8)
Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 17:03I prefer in the service of clarity but the bloke has a name no?! Vastly better still; after all he came up with his different version.
Bottom line being the conceptual issue illustrated and three different improvements explained 8)
Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 17:03I prefer in the service of clarity but the bloke has a name no?! Vastly better still; after all he came up with his different version.
But, slight issue .....I cannot recall the name of the guy I bought these off :-[
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 17:10But, slight issue .....I cannot recall the name of the guy I bought these off :-[
Slight issue indeed as the name is John Sleight.
So
Sleight´s door spacer?
Quote from: Petrus on August 31, 2022, 17:35So Sleight´s door spacer?
JS ? simpler to recall + write
SDS prolly better
Ps went out this evening with an unmodified in any way (minus any upper strut brace) Fl on ~45k miles with a 15-month-old Dev 'bar of soap' installation - roof down
Zero detectable scuttle shake, no rattles whatsoever ......perfection
but in the act of going out in that car I had to shift another car, the bloody doors were stuck shut after this morning's re-installation of the Dev units ......will take 'em off asap + thin them down
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 21:09SDS prolly better
SdS is already taken for hammer drills.
#justsayin 😂
Quote from: Gibla on August 31, 2022, 21:16Ps went out this evening with an unmodified in any way (minus any upper strut brace) Fl on ~45k miles with a 15-month-old Dev 'bar of soap' installation - roof down
Zero detectable scuttle shake, no rattles whatsoever ......perfection
but in the act of going out in that car I had to shift another car, the bloody doors were stuck shut after this morning's re-installation of the Dev units ......will take 'em off asap + thin them down
Are you using any Carnauba paste wax with the install. It is needed when they are installed otherwise the doors will be tight and hard to open. It makes a very big difference. After some time they will reconfirm to the door and it will not be required depending on how tight they are to begin with. The material I use has the ability to adjust over time as it compresses. In your case if you haven't use them in a long time they will expand back to its original shape.
Quote from: Dev on August 31, 2022, 21:27Are you using any Carnauba paste wax with the install. It is needed when they are installed otherwise the doors will be tight and hard to open. It makes a very big difference. After some time they will reconfirm to the door and it will not be required depending on how tight they are to begin with. The material I use has the ability to adjust over time as it compresses. In your case if you haven't use them in a long time they will expand back to its original shape.
Cheers Dev :)
I will take the advice + do as you suggest
Just a few corrections. The door bushings I manufacture are made of Alloy 910 not Delrin. I initially wanted to have them made of Delrin like what is offered in the Mazda community but it was not possible due to the increased costs. I substituted for a newer printer material that is very strong but also flexible because that area takes a beating that cracked my prototypes made of solid ABS. It turns out that the Mazda community found out that Delrin was not a good choice and have switched to carbon fiber reinforced nylon long after my bushings were manufactured. In my opinion I believe Alloy 910 is the better material because its stiff but it also yields and comes back to its original shape and will confirm over time with a break in period of about six months to a year if they are under constant tension.
This material has the ability to be sanded to fit or you can add a shim to tighten them up however over subsequent generations of printing I finally got the right size where in 90% of cases adjustment is not necessary. The installation is easy and requires no hardware and can be removed easily if you don't like them.
Although I could have made a more elaborate set up my goal was to keep costs low and installation simple for the most bang for the buck and volume of sales. That goal was achieved long ago. It is nice to see a new more refined option and I wish them the best of luck.
Quote from: Dev on August 31, 2022, 22:07Just a few corrections. The door bushings I manufacture are made of Alloy 910 not Delrin. I initially wanted to have them made of Delrin like what is offered in the Mazda community but it was not possible due to the increased costs. I substituted for a newer printer material that is very strong but also flexible because that area takes a beating that cracked my prototypes made of solid ABS. It turns out that the Mazda community found out that Delrin was not a good choice and have switched to carbon fiber reinforced nylon long after my bushings were manufactured. In my opinion I believe Alloy 910 is the better material because its stiff but it also yields and comes back to its original shape and will confirm over time with a break in period of about six months to a year if they are under constant tension.
This material has the ability to be sanded to fit or you can add a shim to tighten them up however over subsequent generations of printing I finally got the right size where in 90% of cases adjustment is not necessary. The installation is easy and requires no hardware and can be removed easily if you don't like them.
Although I could have made a more elaborate set up my goal was to keep costs low and installation simple for the most bang for the buck and volume of sales. That goal was achieved long ago. It is nice to see a new more refined option and I wish them the best of luck.
Hi Dev. Are you still manufacturing these and if so, how much shipped to the UK please?
Gerry
Quote from: Microgerry on September 1, 2022, 20:14Hi Dev. Are you still manufacturing these and if so, how much shipped to the UK please?
Gerry
I finished a large batch earlier this month. I plan to make another batch in October. Price would be $50 plus $15 shipping to the Uk. Send me a PM in the first week of Oct and I will set you up.
So whilst in pre, mid, and post selling of cars + swapping bits around to suit myself I came up with the following conclusions (but not exactly comparing like for like as some Fl + PFL along with different tyre/ suspension combos.)
FL with Devs + JS inserts removed, but still with Carolynne strut brace = inferior to when 'full monty' present (the black car that has now been sold)
FL with Dev + JS inserts installed but awaiting strut brace = not a detectable difference to 'full monty' (the yellow car that is getting strut brace installed 16/9/22)
So my conclusion from that is that the combined inserts are certainly helping appreciably :- this is both with and without cf roof present or not. This doesn't mean the strut brace is ineffective ...far from it, these unscientific offerings were from the pov of scuttle shake and a feeling of solidity, not from a cornering prowess aspect
As from today though there will be no opportunity to replicate or do further testing as my MR2 # have been culled to 'just' 2 and both are 'full monty' ie with inserts + bracing.
ps
Another 'finding' was if Dev insert only = close to a 'full monty', from memory I had a JS only arrangement that always was in combo with a strut brace = good , but no direct comparisons as many months apart .
The issues I had with the Dev inserts were sorted out with the Carnauba paste that was suggested by the man himself, but one set (no longer in use or in my possession seemed to be vastly thicker and readily would cause opening issues in all weathers)
Quote from: Gibla on September 16, 2022, 05:14cause opening issues in all weathers
I had that issue as I don't drive my car much...the small garage in Summer is like an oven and a freezer in Winter!
Thanks or reporting
@Gibla .
I am véry chuffed with having forked out for the TRD´s to go with Dev´s. For the rest my car is nicely braced and sorted suspension. The further doubling of the spacing effect, reduction of the measured torsion by half again, is very noticeable on the road.
The back roads are dream twisties but the surface something quite suboptimal. Large tractors with overloaded tailers on supersingle tyres make for jaw dropping cakewalks which are like custom desiged to twist a car chassis. The way it is now, it is as solid as a roofed car.
It is also a delight when playing with the rear traction. The more flex a car has in suspension and/or chassis, the more it is inclined to bite you by slapping the other way when you compensate. The tendency is absent now. I hardly if at all need correct actually as the lsd straightens it out into the direction the front wheels point.
Quote from: Gibla on September 16, 2022, 05:14So whilst in pre, mid, and post selling of cars + swapping bits around to suit myself I came up with the following conclusions (but not exactly comparing like for like as some Fl + PFL along with different tyre/ suspension combos.)
FL with Devs + JS inserts removed, but still with Carolynne strut brace = inferior to when 'full monty' present (the black car that has now been sold)
FL with Dev + JS inserts installed but awaiting strut brace = not a detectable difference to 'full monty' (the yellow car that is getting strut brace installed 16/9/22)
So my conclusion from that is that the combined inserts are certainly helping appreciably :- this is both with and without cf roof present or not. This doesn't mean the strut brace is ineffective ...far from it, these unscientific offerings were from the pov of scuttle shake and a feeling of solidity, not from a cornering prowess aspect
As from today though there will be no opportunity to replicate or do further testing as my MR2 # have been culled to 'just' 2 and both are 'full monty' ie with inserts + bracing.
ps
Another 'finding' was if Dev insert only = close to a 'full monty', from memory I had a JS only arrangement that always was in combo with a strut brace = good , but no direct comparisons as many months apart .
The issues I had with the Dev inserts were sorted out with the Carnauba paste that was suggested by the man himself, but one set (no longer in use or in my possession seemed to be vastly thicker and readily would cause opening issues in all weathers)
Interesting observations. The original offering of my door bushings were thicker and then I revised them based on customer feedback where they had to sand them to fit. The next iteration was better with some that had to sand them. The last version are the Goldilocks versions and the most sold versions with no adjustments needed by the owner.
The Carnauba past wax works like magic for a long time with many not needing another application as the bushings break in. Some did not heed my advise and used grease instead which did not work well and became messy. Some with the first and second iterations that are tight are now using teflon tape on the other side of the contact point and reporting that it works well.
Quote from: Petrus on September 16, 2022, 12:35the more it is inclined to bite you by slapping the other way when you compensate
I have a great acid test nearby, on a fast A-road with a rail level crossing very close to a following sharpish bend.
Any car that hasn't any bracing or inserts shakes violently, and has a noticeable deflection from the intended line, whereas with inserts and bracing no issues whatsoever.
Good comparative test yes.