MR2 Roadster Owners Club

The Workshop => Performance Related => Topic started by: J88TEO on September 12, 2022, 23:40

Title: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 12, 2022, 23:40
To all 2ZZ swappers - what is the ballpark cost for the parts - engine, gearbox, manifold, hardness and Apexi FC?
I am drawn intothis route to up the power of my 2  :)
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: JB21 on September 13, 2022, 07:57
Engine - £1200
Gearbox with torsen LSD - £500
Custom 2ZZ manifold with sports cat - £600
Harness - £200
Apexi, or other aftermarket ECU - £1000+
Dyno session to map the ECU £500
Engine & gearbox mounts - £500+
Custom intake and MAF pipe - £200
Misc £300

Approx. total £5000

My advise, sell your current MR2 and purchase an MR2 already converted
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 13, 2022, 08:55
@JB21
Thanks...
Thinking of going that route...but looks like the cost is prohibitive.
Cheers.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Dev on September 13, 2022, 15:26
 If it makes the sour grapes any better its harder to find good examples of these motors these days.
 If you do end up looking the best way to tell is to open up the valve cover and check the condition of the intake cam and any varnish deposits. That is a good indicator of the wear from the motor if that is all you have to go on.

 

Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 13, 2022, 15:29
@Dev
Thanks.....just thinking....and toying with the idea.
I am quite happy with the stock car with MAF mod, but the itch....ugh...the itch!
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: MrChris on September 13, 2022, 15:37
Quote from: J88TEO on September 13, 2022, 15:29@Dev
Thanks.....just thinking....and toying with the idea.
I am quite happy with the stock car with MAF mod, but the itch....ugh...the itch!


Not heard of this MAF mod before your post. Anything significant to be gained?
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 13, 2022, 15:42
Quote from: MrChris on September 13, 2022, 15:37Not heard of this MAF mod before your post. Anything significant to be gained?
I had some trouble with the injectors I bought off the fleabay and they were throwing up coeds 0172 and 0175 - both banks rich. Swapped out these for used 2ZZ genuine ones and all worked OK - no codes.
There is much gain, transformed the car...
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Alex Knight on September 13, 2022, 22:48
Quote from: JB21 on September 13, 2022, 07:57Engine - £1200
Gearbox with torsen LSD - £500
Custom 2ZZ manifold with sports cat - £600
Harness - £200
Apexi, or other aftermarket ECU - £1000+
Dyno session to map the ECU £500
Engine & gearbox mounts - £500+
Custom intake and MAF pipe - £200
Misc £300

Approx. total £5000

My advise, sell your current MR2 and purchase an MR2 already converted


You can do it much, much cheaper than that (I did).

The best thing to do is buy a Celica T Sport / Corolla T Sport and that has 99% of the bits you need to be honest.

You don't need a harness. You don't need a sports cat or custom exhaust. You don't need engine mounts. You don't need an aftermarket ECU.

Quote from: Alex Knight on March 18, 2014, 17:43Swap parts come to circa £800.00 inc VAT and Duty from Monkey Wrench Racing.

Labour is free if you can swing a spanner competently. It's really not that difficult a swap, seeing as 3 out of the 4 engine mounts are identical to the 1ZZ!

I picked up a donor Corolla T-Sport for £1,400 with circa 80K miles on the clock, stripped out the engine and gearbox and sold it on for £510.00.

Add around £100 for consumables (Oil, Oil Filter, new Accessory Belt, Coolant) and the swap cost me around £1,800.00.

That's also not factoring in selling the old 1ZZ engine and box, which I donated to a friend with a sick roadster.

If I sold the engine and box for say, £300.00, the swap would have cost me circa £1,500.00.

Not bad eh?
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: JB21 on September 14, 2022, 07:54
Quote from: Alex Knight on September 13, 2022, 22:48You can do it much, much cheaper than that (I did).

The best thing to do is buy a Celica T Sport / Corolla T Sport and that has 99% of the bits you need to be honest.

You don't need a harness. You don't need a sports cat or custom exhaust. You don't need engine mounts. You don't need an aftermarket ECU.


Corolla T-Sport for £1,400 with 80K miles on the clock in 2022  :))  :))  :))

Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 14, 2022, 08:59
Thanks for all the info @Alex Knight
Just scratching the itch in my brain at the moment.... I don't have the space and the facilities to do the swap. My garage is a typical apartment block garage with no electricity, no storage space. Just enough space to park the 2 inside and that's it.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: AJRFulton on September 14, 2022, 09:38
The swap isn't that hard to do.

Certainly if you have competence with a spanner, I'd look at renting a 2 post ramp for the day you plan to do it. With a ramp you will get the old engine out and new engine in - completed in 5-6hrs, even having never did this before. Although that depends on the condition of things, a broken bolt or two can kill that estimate.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: pistol pete on September 14, 2022, 17:29
My original cost was less than 1500. So I agree here with Alex

my engine was 1000 (i purchased a rotten celica MOT failure for £1000) which you don't even need, just purchased engine and box from one of the many people that sell them
I did all the work myself,
the wiring is easy to do no need for a harness.
Patrick Chambers swapped the gear set from the celica box into my MR2 box with diff etc, Pretty sure that was £125
the engine mount for drivers side was £25
I found a full exhaust for £180 on ebay (i was luck with this), but if you can weld, then you can adapt the stock 2zz manifold yourself..
then it was just any other bits i wanted to do, service items etc, all cheap enough from euros for fluids etc.
Air box, I did some custom mods to run the stock air box to not upset the maf, which worked well

Run the stock ecu, upgrade that later if you need to
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Alex Knight on September 14, 2022, 19:48
Quote from: JB21 on September 14, 2022, 07:54Corolla T-Sport for £1,400 with 80K miles on the clock in 2022  :))  :))  :))



Actually, here's a Celica T Sport (even better because you can use the ECU too) with 106K for less than £1500 sheets.

So yes, you just have to look:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209069498335?lat-long=56.624196704799594%2C%20-3.230672509814609&minimum-badge-engine-size=1.6&advertising-location=at_cars&maximum-badge-engine-size=2.0&transmission=Manual&model=Celica&page=1&aggregatedTrim=T%20Sport&make=Toyota&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 14, 2022, 22:29
And a colourful engine too!
mmm....now that's a thought!
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 14, 2022, 22:41
True....not in a hurry so no rushing out to buy the 1st one that shows up.
Taking my time, if I decide to go that route.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 14, 2022, 23:30
Thanks for the tips. Much appreciated.
The hunt begins....
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: JB21 on September 15, 2022, 07:52
Quote from: Alex Knight on September 14, 2022, 19:48Actually, here's a Celica T Sport (even better because you can use the ECU too) with 106K for less than £1500 sheets.

So yes, you just have to look:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202209069498335?lat-long=56.624196704799594%2C%20-3.230672509814609&minimum-badge-engine-size=1.6&advertising-location=at_cars&maximum-badge-engine-size=2.0&transmission=Manual&model=Celica&page=1&aggregatedTrim=T%20Sport&make=Toyota&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance

Christ, talk about trying to prove a point. How long did that take you to find that dog. As Anon states the whole cars appearance speaks for itself! I paid £1000 delivered for a 80k mile immaculate 2zz engine from a reputable guy on here and for me this was a bargain these days. I stand by that you will really struggle to find a decent donor car for £1400 these days, and i'll leave it there.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: AJRFulton on September 15, 2022, 10:13
Quote from: JB21 on September 15, 2022, 07:52Christ, talk about trying to prove a point. How long did that take you to find that dog. As Anon states the whole cars appearance speaks for itself! I paid £1000 delivered for a 80k mile immaculate 2zz engine from a reputable guy on here and for me this was a bargain these days. I stand by that you will really struggle to find a decent donor car for £1400 these days, and i'll leave it there.

Exactly why I went down the rebuild route.

Wasted over £2k, and a handful of precious weekends, buying original engines that didn't last long - and unfortunately that is the risk you take.

I was chatting to Andy @ J-Spec a while back about it, and he is shying away from 2ZZ's as the profit margin for him is getting less and less, and the risk more and more.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Iain on September 15, 2022, 10:19
...all the reason why im sticking with the humble 1zz. You can lean on it all day long and it never bothers.

A lot of effort, time and money for some straight line speed.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: JB21 on September 15, 2022, 10:42
Quote from: AJRFulton on September 15, 2022, 10:13Exactly why I went down the rebuild route.

Wasted over £2k, and a handful of precious weekends, buying original engines that didn't last long - and unfortunately that is the risk you take.

I was chatting to Andy J-Spec a while back about it, and he is shying away from 2ZZ's as the profit margin for him is getting less and less, and the risk more and more.

I'll be going down the K20 route when this latest 2ZZ shites itself.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: The Other Stu on September 15, 2022, 11:44
Someone was selling the whole lot - including Apexi ECU - for £2.75k on Facebook the other day.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/143564079695220/permalink/1100494260668859/
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: AJRFulton on September 15, 2022, 12:16
Quote from: JB21 on September 15, 2022, 10:42I'll be going down the K20 route when this latest 2ZZ shites itself.

As we've discussed before, that is the issue with the 2ZZ on track.

It seems to have a high instance of failure, although only in Toyota's, the Lotus applications seem more durable.

If I knew what I know now, I'd have went K20, although concerned with how the weight will effect balance on track.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Carolyn on September 15, 2022, 12:32
The history of 2ZZ swapped cars having blow-ups in the club is quite packed!

@shnazzle has often observed how many have gone pop!

I think is because folk have just swapped in used engines, usually with 80,000+ mils on them, and not really taken into account that they were probably well thrashed throughout their lives, given that lift only happens at high RPM.  Putting such an engine on the track, with all the abuse that entails, is bound to end badly fairly quickly.

I'm sure there are those who've been lucky and got away with it, but they are very much in the minority.

The cost of going thoroughly through a 2ZZ engine to get it in top shape for track use, has to be close to a grand (if you do it yourself), plus mechanic's time if you pay for the job.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: AJRFulton on September 15, 2022, 12:58
Quote from: Carolyn on September 15, 2022, 12:32The history of 2ZZ swapped cars having blow-ups in the club is quite packed!

@shnazzle has often observed how many have gone pop!

I think is because folk have just swapped in used engines, usually with 80,000+ mils on them, and not really taken into account that they were probably well thrashed throughout their lives, given that lift only happens at high RPM.  Putting such an engine on the track, with all the abuse that entails, is bound to end badly fairly quickly.

I'm sure there are those who've been lucky and got away with it, nut they are very much in the minority.

The cost of going thoroughly through a 2ZZ engine to get it in top shape for track use, has to be close to a grand (if you do it yourself), plus mechanic's time if you pay for the job.

The 2ZZ seems to fare a lot worse than say, the K20 - and not just in swapped cars. The 2ZZ's track record with cars where it is the OEM engine isn't great either. But as said Lotus application doesn't seem to have the same issues.

Mostly seems to be oil starvation issues with the 2ZZ, and even taking the precautions (sump/pump/etc) doesn't eliminate that. I've had 2 oil starvation failures, and I've did everything short of a dry sump to prevent it! I personally know of 5x 2ZZ's (3x MR2's, a Corolla and an Elise) that have went bang at the same long right hander at Croft, all with spinning a bearing, all with baffled sumps as a minimum.

Although I think a street car application the 2ZZ is absolutely fine.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: JB21 on September 15, 2022, 13:24
I'm on my 3rd 2ZZ.

1st 80k mile unit bottom end damage due to low oil, this was due to Rogue motorsports not spacing the dipstick correctly on the build.

2nd 155k mile unit bottom end damage, this was my error shifting from 5th to 2nd at 100mph

3rd 80k mile unit still running strong after 7 track days....

IME the 2ZZ is a strong engine given its nature of high revving. Both bottom end damaged engines where still drivable and I even managed both times to drive over 3 miles off track with Zero valve train damage on both. This is only testament to how well they are put together IMO.

I know there have been a lot of other blown engines but I'd bet a lot are down to poor maintenance & rebuilds, non-compatible supporting mods and user error like my example. My 155k mile example was varnished to hell, I mean bad but it still ran fine up until I lunched it.

I mention above my next engine will be a K20 but this is not for reliability, more for increased displacement and available mods so I dont have to go FI. I see all engines as disposable the way I use them on track.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 15, 2022, 13:34
Quote from: The Other Stu on September 15, 2022, 11:44Someone was selling the whole lot - including Apexi ECU - for £2.75k on Facebook the other day.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/143564079695220/permalink/1100494260668859/
I did see this one but apparantly he race that engine before taking it off his 2...so?????
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Dev on September 15, 2022, 15:33
Quote from: AJRFulton on September 15, 2022, 12:58The 2ZZ seems to fare a lot worse than say, the K20 - and not just in swapped cars. The 2ZZ's track record with cars where it is the OEM engine isn't great either. But as said Lotus application doesn't seem to have the same issues.

Mostly seems to be oil starvation issues with the 2ZZ, and even taking the precautions (sump/pump/etc) doesn't eliminate that. I've had 2 oil starvation failures, and I've did everything short of a dry sump to prevent it! I personally know of 5x 2ZZ's (3x MR2's, a Corolla and an Elise) that have went bang at the same long right hander at Croft, all with spinning a bearing, all with baffled sumps as a minimum.

Although I think a street car application the 2ZZ is absolutely fine.

 When the 2ZZ swaps became popular during 2006 the engines were sourced from very low millage donor cars.
These engines were very reliable. I have one of those engines in my car and it has zero issues even though I take it into lift every chance I get. The important take away is you need to start with a good one and maintain it.
 After around 2012 many abused 2ZZ engines found their way into the market because of second hand drivers that abused these engines as the cars that had them became afordable. A comparable 1ZZ engine probably lived a better life because they are least likely to be abused since they are used for general transportation.
 The k20 on the other hand is probably built so well that even an abused one can still be viable. 
 If all you do is street driving a 2ZZ can last a very long time going generously into lift without worry.

 If my 2ZZ were to give up I would pay a premium for the best example I could find just to avoid these issues giving the 2ZZ a bad reputation.

Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: J88TEO on September 15, 2022, 16:22
In my home country, the breakers always have front cuts from Japan...you can start the engine...and they are warranted too.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Alex Knight on September 15, 2022, 21:31
You only hear about engines that blow up. You never hear about the good ones that just keep going, because it's not newsworthy.

This is the human condition, and it's worth thinking about.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: pistol pete on September 17, 2022, 14:15
My 2zz had 170k miles on it when I removed it from the celica, I'm sure it had been thrash
It survived 2 years of very hard abuse on track.  It only died due to my own fault with oil level issue
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: pistol pete on September 17, 2022, 14:17
Quote from: AJRFulton on September 15, 2022, 12:58The 2ZZ seems to fare a lot worse than say, the K20 - and not just in swapped cars. The 2ZZ's track record with cars where it is the OEM engine isn't great either. But as said Lotus application doesn't seem to have the same issues.

Mostly seems to be oil starvation issues with the 2ZZ, and even taking the precautions (sump/pump/etc) doesn't eliminate that. I've had 2 oil starvation failures, and I've did everything short of a dry sump to prevent it! I personally know of 5x 2ZZ's (3x MR2's, a Corolla and an Elise) that have went bang at the same long right hander at Croft, all with spinning a bearing, all with baffled sumps as a minimum.

Although I think a street car application the 2ZZ is absolutely fine.

Mine went bang on the long right hander at Anglesey.. I haven't don't the pump but did have baffled sumo. But also believed it was over filled with oil.
Title: Re: 2ZZ swap - ballpark cost
Post by: Dev on September 17, 2022, 19:35
I just got back from a large car meet where I was meeting another MR-S owner. The 2ZZ discussion came up with those that were hanging around my car. An S2k owner was mentioning that he enjoys the sound of the 2ZZ over his S2k because the clear lift differentiation in both sound and power. He mentioned that the S2k is nearly seamless and boring. 

 Even though the 2ZZ does not give you forced induction torque like power there is something about its character that makes going with this option feel premium. The short stroke engine with the right exhaust sounds exotic and the engine feels smoother and quieter mechanically than the 1ZZ especially at idle.