Got a phone call from Mr T in Dunstable yesterday (Friday) informing me that it was OK for me to keep using their loan car (spoken as if they were doing me a huge favour!).
Why? I hear you ask....
Because after a total of over 2 weeks in the workshop over the last 2 months they have failed miserably to fix the ABS on my 4 month old car. All they have achieved is putting flat spots on 2(!) sets of Yoko rear tyres.
I am now informed that the Toyota Regional Tech Manager will be inspecting the car (for the second time) on Monday in order to decide the next course of action which will more than likely result in the car being taken to Salford from where it is unlikely to return for at least 6 weeks!
The best bit is yet to come though - when speaking to Toyota customer-(bad)relations they were positively abbrasive and informed me in no uncertain terms that my problem was with the dealer and that they had no intention of either replacing the car or compensating me for the fact that I am paying for a £17,500 car whilst driving a £7,000 roller skate!
I await the result of Monday's visit with more than a little trepidation.
I do now have (courtesy of an anonymous source) the names of a few key people within Toyota's establishment who will be getting a number of phone calls on Monday.
ABS has been around for a long time.... I don't understand why they can't fix it. It isn't exactly rocket science any longer.
Do you guys have anything comparable to the US Lemon Laws? (in American slang, a "lemon" is a dud, a POS, a turkey, etc)
A major subsystem that keeps your car down for more than 30 days during the first 12 months of ownership would usually qualify for some sort of legally required action on the part of the dealer/manufacturer chain over here. Your mileage may vary.
Best of luck.
We don't have lemon laws, but we do have the Sale of Goods Act, which states:
1. Goods must be as described, of satisfactory quality, and fit for any
purpose which the consumer makes known to the seller.
2. Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a
reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the
price and any description.
3. Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor
defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.
If goods are not of satisfactory quality the buyer is entitled, if he acts
within a reasonable time, to reject the goods and get his money back.
I'd say they're failing big time under all three of those points.
Just been studying the 'Sale of Goods Act 1979' and 'Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982' in conjuction with the 'Sale & Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations' addition that came into force 31/3/03 (the day I signed for the car!) and I now believe that the dealer (and hence Toyota) have to prove that the car was not faulty when they delivered it to me as it is less than 6 months old.
This is something they are going to find very hard to do - how many dealers do you know that road test vehicles to the point of testing the ABS?
Further to this, even though I have allowed the dealer to attempt repairs to the vehicle, I am still dissatisfied with the result and can insist on replacement of the vehicle or a full refund. Being the (relatively) understanding person that I am, and taking into account the 12,000 miles I have covered in the 4 months I have had the car, replacement seems to be the most logical next step for them.
Let's see what they say on Monday s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
It's nice how some laws do protect the public. Go get 'em Steve.
Quote from: "stevej"replacement seems to be the most logical next step for them.
Erm, this is the same Toyota GB we are talking about? The same Toyota GB that has not used 1 piece of logic when dealing with my Roadster? The same Toyota GB that refuses to replace mine?
BTW - I should have quite an interesting update during next week. Put it this way, if I were to pick a smiley to represent me, it would be s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "Peter Laborne"Quote from: "stevej"replacement seems to be the most logical next step for them.
Erm, this is the same Toyota GB we are talking about? The same Toyota GB that has not used 1 piece of logic when dealing with my Roadster? The same Toyota GB that refuses to replace mine?
The advantage I have is the new 6 month clause which puts the burden of proof on the dealer/manufacturer not me - basically they have to prove there was nothing wrong with the car when they delivered it - something they cannot do as the PDI checks do not test the operation of the ABS
You on the other hand have to prove that the failure is due to either a manufacturing defect or design fault. Something that is going to prove VERY difficult indeed - you are now relying on Toyota wanting to save face with the public rather than being forced to act by law
Well the Toyota Regional Tech Manager has driven my car today and from what I gather came back rather white faced after experiencing the rear wheels locking whilst the fronts kept rotating. s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
His immeadiate reaction was to insist that the car be taken to Salford for further investigation - something that I am not willing to allow to happen because by the time they have finished taking the car apart (and I mean APART!) the chances are that none of the components will fit properly with all of the associated creaks and rattles that you associate with a 10 year old wreck not a 4 month old car s:( :( s:(
To cut a long (and very heated s:evil: :evil: s:evil: ) story short, I have formally informed Toyota and the Dealer that I no longer accept the vehicle and that they have to replace it without delay.
When collecting the car tonight, I understand that a number of meetings and discussions have taken place relating to my car - I look forward to what they try next......
Oh, and to add insult to injury, each time the car has gone in, I have asked them to carry out the 10K service, and on each occasion it has been returned unserviced so is now 2.5K over it's service interval.
Good to see you not taking any sh*t. You've got the law on your side, and it's good to see you not letting a big frim push you around, just 'cause they're big.
Go get youself a car that works!
Good luck.
Quote from: "stevej"Oh, and to add insult to injury, each time the car has gone in, I have asked them to carry out the 10K service, and on each occasion it has been returned unserviced so is now 2.5K over it's service interval.
You had better put a written complaint about about that to your dealer and CC to Toyota. Otherwise, they could turn around and say the warranty is void as the services have not been done. Hyundai pulled that one on me when I was 1000 over the service during my move to Munich, and there was a warranty claim on a know problem.
s:x :x s:x
Now at the end of Day 1 of the battle proper, and I have discovered one thing - all of the staff at Toyota Customer Services take lunches that extend from 10 am through to 5.30 pm - they have got to be the most elusive creatures ever.
Perhaps I should get David Attenborough on the case - he seems good at tracking down hard to find (and previously presumed extinct) creatures s:( :( s:(
The battle continues..............
Steve did they acknowledge the ABS problem prior to fitting the Eibachs? I hope they don't try and blame it on removing that single screw by each strut that holds the ABS lead in place!!
Quote from: "Comer"Steve did they acknowledge the ABS problem prior to fitting the Eibachs? I hope they don't try and blame it on removing that single screw by each strut that holds the ABS lead in place!!
When we fitted the Eibachs the other day, I had only just collected the car from it's second visit to the garage so if they try that argument they are on a hiding to nothing s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Mate, here is summit that may interest you, my dad bought a TVR Cerbera when they were first released, he had no end of problems with it, he had it for 8 months and it was at TVR for 6-7 of those months.
Anyway he "rejected" the car and asked for his money back from TVR and they refused, so he sued them -and won and also got damamges etc.
This was the first time some1 had actually won a case of this sort but i think it created a precedent.
Chin up mate, am sure it'll be ok. s:? :? s:?
stevej
Was the car bought outright or on finance?
If the latter, the finance company is the one responsible for the mechanical defects on your car. After all they would have bought it from a dealer and then charge you until the HP is paid off.
I am sure I asked a similar question to another member but cannot recall the outcome.
s:) :) s:) s:) :) s:)
Day 2 of the battle and everything seems worryingly quiet on the eastern front......
Did manage to catch a lesser spotted Customer Services rep in-between coffee breaks who assured me that there would be 2 or 3 of them (that must be the entire staff then!) discussing my case in further detail this afternoon, and he would call me back before the end of play.......hmmmm
I guess it is only 21:50 and there is some 2 hours 10 minutes left of today but I get the feeling I may not be getting that call....... s:( :( s:(
Let's see what tomorrow's skirmish brings.......
Quote from: "Roger H"Was the car bought outright or on finance?
If the latter, the finance company is the one responsible for the mechanical defects on your car. After all they would have bought it from a dealer and then charge you until the HP is paid off.
I part-ex'd my old '2 ('01 SMT) for £10K and the balance was from Toyota finance so I guess either way it's Toyota's problem - either their finance arm or the main company.
Morning Steve
I'm certainly no expert but I am sure that Toyota Finance is responsible. I suggest that you study the HP agreement in detail. If my hunch is right you could put them on notice that you intend to cease payments to them because under the Consumer Credit Act they sold you a product that was not a merchantable quality.
Memory is a funny thing but I THINK it was bluegreeneyedblonde who was having some trouble and the posts at the time suggested a similar course of action.
Try not to be too s:( :( s:( and keep s8) 8) s8)
s:) :) s:) s:) :) s:)
Toyota GB Customer Services get better by the minute.......
On Friday 22/8 @ 14.30 I spoke to Hugh (who seems to be the poor sod who drew the short straw when my call came in!), and after much too'ing and fro'ing he agreed to work out a time scale for the investigation to take place at Salford. This info was supposed to be fed back by the end of play on that day.
It's now 14:45 on Tuesday 26/8 and I have not heard from Hugh, so contacted TCS again to be informed that he is on a training course until Thursday. When asked if anyone else was dealing with the call, I was informed that there were no notes on the call indictaing what we had discussed and there had been no update since 11:30 22/8 when Hugh called me.
To cap it all, the person I spoke to this afternoon said there was no way that an agreement of time scale could be reached as it was 'just not possible to predict'
TCS now have until tomorrow lunchtime to call me with a mutually agreed time scale to fix my vehicle before I appoint a solicitor to 'sue the arse off the idiots' under the terms of the 'Sale of Goods and Services act 1982'
Oh I am sooooo going to enjoy the next round s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "SteveJ"'sue the arse off the idiots'
GO STEVE, GO STEVE! *little dance* KILL EM ALL!!!! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Not sure if I'm dissapointed or not, but Hugh rang me at about 11:00 today (27/8 ) with an update.
Basically they are offering to source a loan Roadster (or poss Celica) for the duration that my car is in the tech center at Salford. They will not however commit to a time-scale for the work to be carried out - I have made it quite clear that there still needs to be a cut-off point after which the car is declared unviable and is replaced.
I now wait with bated breath to see what they can find as a loaner - somehow I don't think it will be a '190 but you never know........ Engine swap anyone s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
There is only one good thing about this... it could be worse... 1.0 Yaris anyone! s:o :o s:o
Still no more news from Toyota - now they are begining to wind me up again.
If anyone at TCS is reading this thread, watch out I'm coming for you on Monday and I'm not happy s:evil: :evil: s:evil: s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Finally - signs of life at TCS.
Several calls yesterday (Tuesday) from 'Richard' at TCS (Don't know what has happened to Hugh - they say he is 'no longer available! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: ')
Basically, Toyota are having to rent a loan car for me which will be delivered to Camden on Monday 15/9 (probably a Celica 140 but the rental company have a couple of '2s which they may be able to get hold of) Once I have the loaner, my car will be taken into Salford for 'investigation'.
Toyota are still refusing to agree a maximum duration that the vehicle is in Salford before being declared unviable so I have put it on record that if I do not receive the car back within 2 months fixed to my complete satisfaction, I WILL be instructing my solicitor to take legal action against Camden Toyota and Toyota GB to get the vehicle replaced, and compensation for the grief and inconvenience they have caused thus far, and I'm sure will continue to cause in the future.
The one thing I have in my favour is the cost of the rental car plus the insurance (cause be buggered if I'm using my insurance for their loan car) is going to be HUUUUUUUGE so the sooner they fix my car the less of a loss they will make on it (the warranty work so far has wiped out any profit they made s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: )
s:evil: :evil: s:evil: :evil:
Quote from: "SteveJ"(probably a Celica 140 but the rental company have a couple of '2s which they may be able to get hold of)
hay, it could be worse... look what i have today... s:? :? s:?
(http://www.mr2-roadster.co.uk/rocstuff/yaris.jpg)
Nice to see there is at least some movement on the ABS problem though....!
Keep smiling mate! s:) :) s:)
Well it's been a week now, and no update, so I called TCS and after a 20(!) minute wait, they informed me that the technical center have confirmed there is a fault with my car and are now going to look at it.
All I can say is "WHAT THE F**K ARE THEY PLAYING AT? DON'T THEY BELIEVE THEIR CUSTOMERS/DEALERS/TECHNICAL MANAGERS?"
So, to recap, it has taken 4 months of continuous grief and all we have achieved is yet another person has said "Yep it's knackered!"
s:evil: :evil: s:evil: NOW I'M GETTING SERIOUSLY ANNOYED s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
I hope you let them know that. jeeze.
and you sound surprised....?!? s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I think you should take your anger out on the celica seeing as they are paying for it... just how fast can you go in first gear in one of them and how many times can you bounce off the redline before the engine gives up...? s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"I think you should take your anger out on the celica seeing as they are paying for it... just how fast can you go in first gear in one of them and how many times can you bounce off the redline before the engine gives up...? s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
s:) :) s:) What was that 6th to 2nd move Steve mentioned? s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"I think you should take your anger out on the celica seeing as they are paying for it... just how fast can you go in first gear in one of them and how many times can you bounce off the redline before the engine gives up...? s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Shhhh - don't tell Camden Toyota, but I did drive from near Heathrow to Luton (~40 miles) via the M25 in 3rd gear all the way (that includes all stops etc) in their
BRAND NEW Yaris. At the very least the clutch was toast judging by the smell, and I don't think the gearbox was far behind.
A little tip - you don't want to see me when I get
really angry s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
So far I've put 850 miles on the Celica, and there's another 150+ to go on tomorrow s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "SteveJ"Shhhh - don't tell Camden Toyota, but I did drive from near Heathrow to Luton (~40 miles) via the M25 in 3rd gear all the way (that includes all stops etc) in their BRAND NEW Yaris. At the very least the clutch was toast judging by the smell, and I don't think the gearbox was far behind.
3rd gear? Bloody hell thats good... Every time I go on the M25 I consider myself lucky to make use of so high a gear. Its normally crawling along at a snails pace...
Quote from: "GSB"Quote from: "SteveJ"Shhhh - don't tell Camden Toyota, but I did drive from near Heathrow to Luton (~40 miles) via the M25 in 3rd gear all the way (that includes all stops etc) in their BRAND NEW Yaris. At the very least the clutch was toast judging by the smell, and I don't think the gearbox was far behind.
3rd gear? Bloody hell thats good... Every time I go on the M25 I consider myself lucky to make use of so high a gear. Its normally crawling along at a snails pace...
I was impressed too - best bit was most of the time I was hovering
VERY close to the redline - even managed to ping off it a couple of times!
Steve, yer a bad lad! s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Well it's been nearly 3 weeks now, and finally I get a call from TCS to say they are making progress........ s:? :? s:? s:? :? s:?
Apparently the technicians have identified a foreign substance in the ABS actuator which is interfering with the solenoid operation.
When pushed for more info, the description of this 'substance' sounds like casting sand - the type used when the body of the actuator was cast.
Now the actuator was supposed to have been replaced by the dealer nearly 2 months ago, so either :-
1) The dealership is lying (wouldn't surprise me based on past performance)
2) Toyota have a quality control problem with the ABS actuators fitted to '03 SMT cars
If it's 1) I'm going to have a problem doing anything nasty to them as they are no longer a Toyota franchise
If it's 2) then maybe more of us need to check the behaviour of our brakes when performing an emergency stop.
More news as it breaks.........(or should that be brakes s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: )
AAAARRGH!!!!!
Well surprisingly enough Toyota have failed yet again to fix my car and they STILL refuse to replace it saying that they only need 'a couple more days' to fix it.
s:evil: :evil: s:evil: WELL NOW I HAVE HAD ENOUGH s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
I have served notice on them that as of tomorrow morning I am starting legal action against Toyota GB and The Camden Motor Group to get the vehicle replaced without any further delay.
Can anybody suggest a good civil-law solicitor who can act on my behalf?
s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: I think Steve's going to open one hell of a can of whoopass! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
We use Charles Russell at work (http://www.cr-law.co.uk/). They do private and commercial work, so may be able to help (though I'm not entirely sure).
Hi Steve,
I got your message and have had a word with a couple of people on your behalf. I will give you a buzz a little later with some info.
I think your problem will most probably relate to Consumer rights and Contract. I will have to have a good reed through this thread!
Adam
Give em hell Steve!
This is very worrying. I'm just about to buy my first new car - the MR-2. I was (obviously wrongly), under the impression that, if anything did go wrong under warranty, it wouldn't become a problem that required legal action to solve. s:( :( s:(
Good luck though
Regards
Stephen
Quote from: "StephenBennett"This is very worrying. I'm just about to buy my first new car - the MR-2. I was (obviously wrongly), under the impression that, if anything did go wrong under warranty, it wouldn't become a problem that required legal action to solve. s:( :( s:(
Don't let this put you off though Stephen, there are far more on the board that haven't had ANY problems at all (myself included), than those that have. It's still a very reliable car, IMO.
Quote from: "Slacey"Don't let this put you off though Stephen, there are far more on the board that haven't had ANY problems at all (myself included), than those that have. It's still a very reliable car, IMO.
Even with the thing that just hit me, I still think the car is pretty reliable. It's the first real problem I've had in three years. Toyota is constantly ranked among the most reliable car in most tests and surveys...you should see the trouble some other brands have...
Besides three years of pure joy easily overcomes few weeks worth of trouble. Even if it doesn't feel like that when you're in the middle of it s:? :? s:?
I'm afraid your chances with some other car would be worse...JMHO of course.
s:D :D s:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Finally a phone call from TCS where they have seen sense - they are making one more change to my car to attempt to fix the problem, and then they are giving up!!!
Basically they are checking the wiring loom (they tried to suggest I had made changes to the cars wiring which could have had an effect - the only thing I have done is take power from the Sony HU adapter loom to run the hands-free kit and the Snooper!). If these checks do not reveal and resolve the fault by Monday morning (fat chance!) they *WILL* buy-back the car for the full value of a *NEW* vehicle and source me a *NEW* car!
Roll on Monday
s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: :bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
thats great news steve... i take it they will swop the leather out for you though?!?!
So will you be re-ordering your H&S now?
Great news Steve, I'm really pleased you got a good result. That means you will be needing that strut bar now though s:( :( s:(
Fantastic!
Steve
It's about bloody time s:!: :!: s:!: A very long wait, but hopefully a new car to look forward to.
What about a nice set of chrome styling hoops to compliment the look of a H&S exhaust?
Regards
s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D
Result s:D :D s:D
My new car is now on order - currently no delivery date, but they are hopeful of locating a new car in the UK.
Only one drawback - they want the Celica back (fair enough I guess - I've got what I wanted all along and it's cost them an arm and leg s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: ), so a Corolla T-Spirit is being delivered tomorrow AM for me to use until they find my new motor s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
So far in the last 3 days I've got a new job (more money, more holiday and less grief s:) :) s:) ) and Toyota are replacing my car with a *brand new* one. If all good things come in 3's, I'm just waiting for number 3 to come along......... s;) ;) s;)
All sounds good to me. Worth holding out for. Nice one Steve.
Really pleased you got the result you wanted Steve. Is the new one going to be in the fastest colour? s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Nice one Steve just get that leather switched over.
Did Peter get anywhere with the claim for a new car?
Good stuff steve - so are they swaping your seats etc over for you? And does this mean its a 53 reg?
Oh no, my ABS no longer works... best get a 53 reg now s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Quote from: "krisclarkuk"Good stuff steve - so are they swaping your seats etc over for you? And does this mean its a 53 reg?
s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Forgot about that - yep I guess it will be a '53, and they should be swapping the interior and the eibach's etc.
I have asked for access to the vehicle to recover the MP3 wiring loom and the laser/radar detector for the Snooper as well.
Things just keep getting better and better s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
jammy git! but i guess its only fair... will test my ABS on the driving training day and see if it works or not s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "SteveJ"So far in the last 3 days I've got a new job (more money, more holiday and less grief s:) :) s:) ) and Toyota are replacing my car with a *brand new* one. If all good things come in 3's, I'm just waiting for number 3 to come along......... s;) ;) s;)
Quick - buy a lottery ticket s:D :D s:D
Better still - can I be in your syndicate s:?: :?: s:?: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Good result BTW, very pleased for you.