For those of you with an interest in the C2 kit & stuff, this thread will cover the stage 2 install as it unfolds.
I'm taking pics as i go (more than you'll see here) so if theres anything you want, just shout and I'll do what I can. I'm not working at Gaspar pace though s:P :P s:P , and still haven't nailed the picture hosting thing, so bear with me!
By the way, I'm not a mechanic or auto-electrician, and C2 haven't yet produced installation instructions s:shock: :shock: s:shock: . So bear with me if I state the bleedin' obvious with qualified stupidity, and please know that help and advice from members will be very much appreciated.
First up is the kit:
(http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/2343/c2kitsmall5ee.jpg)
Not as complete as the Hass, but I'm told (by Matt @ MWR) that its comparable on quality - even has the same IC dings as Dan's s:wink: :wink: s:wink: . Unlike the Hass, it arrived within 10 days of payment clearing.
By the way, I'm compiling a list of all the little extras that are needed for the install manual.
....and the kit coated:
(http://www.dollarmonitor.com/pittey/coated-low.jpg)
More details in Spynish's "Woohoo" thread
Lonely '2 and a bit of skirt s:lol: :lol: s:lol: in the garage:
(http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/529/car24zi.jpg)
& on the ramps:
(http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/7039/car12ww.jpg)
Enough space in a single-width garage to get to everything, but cat-swinging is not an option s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Ignore the number plate - I know its sad, but if its good enough for our Club Secretary......
Bumper off & Oil out:
(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3073/car351xv.jpg)
Oil draining is straightforward, but newspaper is very useful to have handy as this thing p!sses like a drunk on a friday night when you use engine flush s:lol: :lol: s:lol: . Handy tip is to cut the side off an old 5litre oil container to drain into.....then you can transfer the used oil through its spout into another container (preferably one without a hole in the side!)
A friendly MR2ROC thread told me the bumper removal would be a quick job s:shock: :shock: s:shock: . Its not too bad, but two pairs of hands are recommended. Be careful not to lose the arch liner clips when you pull the thing clear. One thing I should have done before removal was to measure the height between chassis rail and bottom of the bumper to help with exhaust tip alignment (anybody....?). Would have been easier to measure accurately with the thing on.....Doh s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Cheesy sportsauspuff twin pipe, anyone? make me an offer!
CAI, Manifold, Cat, Exhaust and Heatshields stripped out.....:
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1993/car362uj.jpg)
just like a Haynes manual when it comes to the swine jobs, I'm not going to say anything about this! Handy hint: Elastoplast.
....leaving a stonking hole!
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2987/car371hh.jpg)
The observant viewer will notice a deliberate mistake - now rectified - in the "battery still connected" department. Also, a poor choice of footwear...
Test fit:
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6329/car50wb.jpg)
(http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/2292/car64rb.jpg)
First impressions are pretty good in terms of alignment, until you get to the exhaust tips. The whole cat/silencer assembly needs to be lifted by about 7cm at the o/s mount. Using the n/s mounting rubber as a pivot point, it seems that alignment with the downpipe flexi- isn't adversely affected.
(Gas informs me that kits shipping now will have an element of "adjust" built into them)
That's it for now. Everything is off and boxed up again. Looking at turbo brace solutions tomorrow - gas sent me a weld-on for the hot side that sits beautifully under the manifold centre point, but having seen the quality of the ceramic coating, I'm reluctant to hack into it for a weld & risk a hot spot. Creative thinking time.......
Ste
Awwww.. s:( :( s:( ... I was hoping for a picture of the dump valve. Looks nice from the small pic on the C2 site.
Oi cheeky!! Do you have to climb out of the roof to get out of the car??
Be interesting to see how you get on with this...I envy anyone going down the turbo route..lucky things!
All very impressive, but like Liz said, that is one TIGHT garage!!!
How on EARTH do you get in and out of there? s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Quote from: "LeeUK"Awwww.. s:( :( s:( ... I was hoping for a picture of the dump valve. Looks nice from the small pic on the C2 site.
Can't help you there Lee, sorry: Being an old fart, I'm going stealth with recirc - Gas put a recirc solution into the intake pipe and sent me a boring plastic Bosch BOV to pipe in. If anyone wants to check out the R2D2 though, here's the C2 link: http://www.c2power.com/node/137
Quote from: "Liz"Oi cheeky!! Do you have to climb out of the roof to get out of the car??
Quote from: "John Woodward"How on EARTH do you get in and out of there?
Sorry Liz s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Yes it is a tight squeeze with the car parked centrally. I was going to ramp-up off-centre but forgot to redo it before I dropped the oil out s:oops: :oops: s:oops: No real access probs at the back though.
I'll update the thread soon - other commitments got in the way of progress yesterday s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Nice Job Ste!!
s:D :D s:D
Ste,
Give me a shout if you need a hand with anything - as you know I'm only minutes away. Wouldn't mind seeing the kit firsthand either. You have PM s:D :D s:D
Thanks for the support guys. Thought I'd post a quick update as a chance to throw some questions your way.
Progress is painfully slow due to away-from-home commitments, but I'm loving every minute that I do get in the garage s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: . Sadly, no chance until the weekend now s:( :( s:( , but will update again on Sunday.
The kit is great - but its also the challenge I was looking for - everything fits "nicely but not quite!", so a lot of time has been spent pondering optimal solutions, assembling, disassembling and adjusting.....and popping down the shops for the odd bolt or clamp s:P :P s:P
This weekend's job will be to mount the IC and piping and start on the electronics (*dread*).
Two questions for you:
1) I was going to mount the IC with the scoop at the same level as the bottom of the exhaust tips. Is this low enough? (stock suspension at the mo)......and what sort of scoop angle is good?
2) Does anyone know what the best thread sealant is for a (ferrous) oil sender thread in an aluminium block. Normally, the sender seats on an O-ring, so no probs, but in the T-piece there's nothing to seat on. I guess it needs to be flexible and oil-resistant for a start, but also resistant to oil pressure (which might rule out gasket gloop). I also want to keep the first few turns of thread clean so's not to send bits of sealant through the oil line.
Please post your thoughts. Also, if anyone has a cheesy Boost gauge I can "borrow" pending delivery from a supplier who hasn't honoured his delivery time promise s:( :( s:( , let me know s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spit"2) Does anyone know what the best thread sealant is for a (ferrous) oil sender thread in an aluminium block.
Plumbers tape (PTFE tape), a couple of turns or three on the first third of the thread should be enough. (Assuming it's a BSP or NPT, not BSPP or NPT-P, in which case PTFE the entire thread, IMHO)
QuoteAlso, if anyone has a cheesy Boost gauge I can "borrow" pending delivery from a supplier who hasn't honoured his delivery time promise s:( :( s:( , let me know s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Whereabouts are you? I have an SPA digital guage from the Nissan that isn't plumbed in to anything at the moment, you could borrow that for a bit if you like. (Just remember to give it back, last time I lent an SPA guage to someone I never saw it again.. At £150 a pop, that's a bit annoying s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )
Aaron
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "spit"2) Does anyone know what the best thread sealant is for a (ferrous) oil sender thread in an aluminium block.
Plumbers tape (PTFE tape), a couple of turns or three on the first third of the thread should be enough. (Assuming it's a BSP or NPT, not BSPP or NPT-P, in which case PTFE the entire thread, IMHO)
I've tried PTFE - 2 turns, whole thread - and its not holding up against the oil (I've tested the new exhaust on tickover with normal induction kit on). Its working fine on the other oil connections where they screw tight onto a seat though (eg engine block sender hole and turbo fitting) Threads look fine, but I think its cos this joint doesn't "bottom" onto anything, its only the PTFE between the oil and the big bad world, and the PTFE is turning to mush s:? :? s:? Maybe use more tape!
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "spit"Also, if anyone has a cheesy Boost gauge I can "borrow" pending delivery from a supplier who hasn't honoured his delivery time promise s:( :( s:( , let me know s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Whereabouts are you? I have an SPA digital guage from the Nissan that isn't plumbed in to anything at the moment, you could borrow that for a bit if you like. (Just remember to give it back, last time I lent an SPA guage to someone I never saw it again.. At £150 a pop, that's a bit annoying s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )
Manchester. V Kind offer Aaron, thanks. Is it a sod to install? Do I need a sender? Happy to tender a deposit/rental fee s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Other option I suppose is get a £30 manual gauge and shove it on EBay afterwards....
While I'm here, couple more pics to pass the time
Turbo installed and plumbed:
(http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/4260/car76gm.jpg)
Note the missing bolts. I received 5 for this piece, but two are too small s:? :? s:? easily fixed I hope.
Exhaust tips finally aligned:
(http://img327.imageshack.us/img327/8015/car123pv.jpg)
This was a pain. I'll tell you about it sometime! I still haven't quite sorted a clearance issue between DP and Gearbox but have a cunning plan s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (Spynish had the opposite problem where the DP-Exhaust mount hit the chassis rail.....looks like they over-compensated.
Note the under-bonnet lamp.....might install one of these permanently s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
It's all looking good - nice pictures by the way.
Ste, when you wrap the PTFE round dpn't be afraid to go overboard: Mark was telling me off for using too much, but as a plumber I use the stuff everyday and find that if you match the size of the thread to the number of turns, you can't go far wrong (i.e. 10mm, 10 turns; 8mm, 8 turns etc).
Kit looks lovely in situ mate, you're making a great job of it.
Quote from: "spit"Threads look fine, but I think its cos this joint doesn't "bottom" onto anything, its only the PTFE between the oil and the big bad world, and the PTFE is turning to mush s:? :? s:? Maybe use more tape!
Yeah - like Dan said, more tape! heh s:) :) s:) I guess from what you've said (it was for a fitting designed to 'seat') that it's a BSPP or NPT-P thread, which is going to be harder to get a good seal on than a taper thread in my experience. Odd though - most oil fittings (with the exception of banjo fittings) are taper threads.
QuoteManchester. V Kind offer Aaron, thanks. Is it a sod to install? Do I need a sender? Happy to tender a deposit/rental fee s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Other option I suppose is get a £30 manual gauge and shove it on EBay afterwards....
It's pretty easy to install, once I've soldered the loom back together (butchered it to remove it from a previous car s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ) - comes with a big electrical sender, loom, guage etc.
It's one of these btw (top left) :
(http://www.spatechnique.com/pics/dual1b.jpg)
I absolutely
love these guages - peak hold, multiple warning levels, feed to drive an external warning system or other system (like water injection) - very neat guages. Not to everyones taste, though, I know s:) :) s:)
Will probably cost a few quid to post though, as the sender is fairly weighty, plus big loom, guage etc, you might be as well getting a cheap boost guage - you should be able to pick one up for £30 or so really, maybe less if you get it from eBay in the first place (just be aware that a cheap boost guage will only be accurate to within a couple of psi unless you're lucky) - in fact, Demon Tweeks do a TIM boost guage (I had one on the Renault) for £20+Vat, was actually pretty accurate, too.
Quote from: "Ekona"......if you match the size of the thread to the number of turns, you can't go far wrong (i.e. 10mm, 10 turns; 8mm, 8 turns etc).
Kit looks lovely in situ mate, you're making a great job of it.
Thanks for the kind words Dan (and Russ too). Lets hope it runs at the other end of all this! Not sure if the joint'll take many turns of PTFE - its a fine thread - but I'll try again & see if it holds up against hot oil. Gas used some orange sealant gloop on Spyni's car, but no idea what it is.
Quote from: "aaronjb"I absolutely love these guages..... - very neat guages.
I agree - they're great. I nearly opted for them, but with my ageing eyesight I'm going with Greddy Silver EGT & Boost flanking an XD-1. I'll check out the Tim at D-tweeks.... I'm going to have to pay them a visit anyway when it comes to working out the actuator and bov plumbing s:? :? s:? (and that'll be my next question s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Must go bed - sunny Solihull tomorrow s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Meantime, any IC scoop positioning thoughts for me to come back to at the weekend?
Quote from: "spit"I'm going with Greddy Silver EGT & Boost
Great choice! s8) 8) s8) Will you get the warning series? I find it very nice to be able to check the maximums after run(s).
Quote from: "Tem"Will you get the warning series? I find it very nice to be able to check the maximums after run(s).
Yep, they're the ones!
(http://www.greddy.com/images/36x60_war_wbs.jpg)
Quote from: "spit"Gas used some orange sealant gloop on Spyni's car, but no idea what it is.
Oil sealant paste. Usually red, and can be found at any plumbers merchant. 'Tis good stuff.
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "Tem"Will you get the warning series? I find it very nice to be able to check the maximums after run(s).
Yep, they're the ones!
Where/how will you mount them?
Quote from: "Tem"Where/how will you mount them?
Still pondering that one, Tem.
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "Tem"Will you get the warning series? I find it very nice to be able to check the maximums after run(s).
Yep, they're the ones!
(http://www.greddy.com/images/36x60_war_wbs.jpg)
I have two of those as well s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: (EGTs that is) - the sensors got tapped into the exhaust manifolds on the Z, and installed, but I never did get around to actually putting the guages in before it expired. Grr. s:) :) s:) Nice guages, though.. although finding somewhere to put the (two, in my case) giant control boxes was going to be interesting.
Quote from: "aaronjb"although finding somewhere to put the giant control boxes was going to be interesting.
I put mine under the drivers seat. The sensor wires weren't long enough to reach behind the dashboard/stereo and I didn't feel like lenghtening them s:? :? s:?
Plenty of room for 6 boxes there s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "Tem"I put mine under the drivers seat. The sensor wires weren't long enough to reach behind the dashboard/stereo and I didn't feel like lenghtening them s:? :? s:?
Plenty of room for 6 boxes there s8) 8) s8)
I never thought of that s:) :) s:) Would mean some bizarre wiring routing in the Nissan (front engined and all that) - but still an excellent place for them!
And you can't lengthen the wires on the EGT probes, I don't think, as they use matched wiring for the thermocouples s:) :) s:) (Or so I read, from someone more knowledgable than me when it comes to thermocouples s;) ;) s;) )
Quote from: "aaronjb"And you can't lengthen the wires on the EGT probes, I don't think, as they use matched wiring for the thermocouples s:) :) s:)
I think there are two cases here...one as you described above and one where the sensor does "all the work" and the wires are just wires. I think GReddy electrical series is the latter, but not 100% sure though...
(then again, any bad joint increasing resistance even a bit will throw the meter off)
OK guys - IC positioning time. There's a lot of scope, from "flat" to "angled", from "high" to "rabbit decapitator". Currently got the thing propped in a rough position.
I'd appreciate your views, so using the following pictures as a reference point, please let me have your thoughts/reasoning on alterations before I fasten the IC in place. Not easy from the perspective of the pictures, I know, but have a go! Cheers
As you know, the C2 already has a scoop on it, as highlighted on the pic:
(http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/3930/car135zv.jpg)
Here's a view from the front of the car - I've marked "ground" level and leading edge of the scoop. Looks like it should come down a bit? (I'm on stock suspension at the mo):
(http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/901/car148gj.jpg)
Hi man,
This is the way I have it. Have never hit it, well just once when going two people and going really fast here:
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=saltomr2toni34
But it was a very little scratch because of the jump and 2 people weight. s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
But never more, and I have it lower than my exhaust tail pipes:
(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwCdAk4U4bks3*E3gLZYSL7UVyu!lHySeNXik!QbqyItSd57u7jW89aGkCnp!TGkYxfr5060u6!W1eBi7pymJhvAWFTr5OwgAnDembrz!kg/scoopmod.jpg)
The thing is as it's behind the rear wheels, it's difficult to hit something as the whole car goes up and down before. There is always a risk with things that can go between both wheels, but have to be big things (like a big stone). In fact have passed through big stones thinking I was going to hit it and didn't. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
That's useful Spyni, thanks. It looks like the level of the centre of the exhaust tips is a good guide for the base of the IC, with the scoop angled down from there. The wheels lifting the car is a good point, but I'll have to be careful with some of the "speed cushions" around here....they can be like small mountains s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
(http://www.mini-roundabout.com/calming/calmingimages/cushionsherparkave.jpg)
a mate has a Caterham 7 VVC with a ground clearance of 2" and manages fine so i'd have thought you'll be ok with a bit of care
Quote from: "spit"That's useful Spyni, thanks. It looks like the level of the centre of the exhaust tips is a good guide for the base of the IC, with the scoop angled down from there. The wheels lifting the car is a good point, but I'll have to be careful with some of the "speed cushions" around here....they can be like small mountains s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
(http://www.mini-roundabout.com/calming/calmingimages/cushionsherparkave.jpg)
That's what I meant saying that IC is behind rear wheels, you won't have problems with that "speed cushions", as wheels pass first, IC won't touch s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Thanks for the tips, people. I've gone for low & angled - plenty of scope to lift it later if necessary (string line=ground level)
(http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/2408/car158uq.jpg)
(http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8444/car178rg.jpg)
(http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/3067/car168lf.jpg)
The scoop looks good there! Good job. You'll be soon known as the rabbit collector. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Just be carful not to have too much of an angle as you could cause damage to the kit by aerodynamics (I could be wrong though, negative air pressure and all that other stuff s:? :? s:? s:roll: :roll: s:roll: )
Quote from: "LeeUK"The scoop looks good there! Good job. You'll be soon known as the rabbit collector. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Just be carful not to have too much of an angle as you could cause damage to the kit by aerodynamics (I could be wrong though, negative air pressure and all that other stuff s:? :? s:? s:roll: :roll: s:roll: )
Cheers Lee. Aerodynamics is a mystery to me, but I'll be sure to pick up the bits as they fall out of the back s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Tonight's job is to bury this oil leak once and for all. I think I may have found the reason why three separate (and all valid) attempts to seal the oil pressure sender to the aluminium block have failed. Yippee in advance! Will post the findings later.......
Quote from: "spit"Thanks for the tips, people. I've gone for low & angled - plenty of scope to lift it later if necessary (string line=ground level)
(http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/2408/car158uq.jpg)
Well... this IS low...
pay attention when on B roads... they're not flat...
I know because I am pretty low with the C1s and the WayDos and it scrapes when on attack mode... and this is even lower s:? :? s:?
kids love to see sparkles flying under cars but your heart might not s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "dreambackup"Well... this IS low...
Having looked again tonight, you might be right s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I'll know for sure when the under-car oily grief is sorted and I can get off the ramps. Then we can all laugh at the next photo s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Strange: the IC scoop looks quite small off the car, but mounting at an angle it reaches down further than you think.
Watch out. I keep shredding the deflector on my Hass kit every time I hit cones at the autoX. Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks just as low, if not lower. Mine looks like twisted tissue paper now.
Quote from: "barkingspyder"Watch out. I keep shredding the deflector on my Hass kit every time I hit cones at the autoX. Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks just as low, if not lower. Mine looks like twisted tissue paper now.
Ow, painful.
Update as promised - the oil leak is fixed. My Dad (bless him) is a meticulous retired engineer with a "no fluff" brain and passion for detail. We talked through symptoms and options, and he concluded that the aluminium block thread probably hadn't been tapped out parallel, just with a primary tap. This was causing the taper thread on the sender to tighten but not seal against the taper point cut by the tap (if that makes sense!).
So, I tapped out the thread to completion and bingo - Car sounds great and no leaks:
(http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/3819/car183bd.jpg)
(BTW, it gets very demoralising to see the word "Denso" when you've been under there four times to fix a leak s:wink: :wink: s:wink: This could be my new username?)
So.....I can get cracking with the turbo air pipes at last s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Back to the scoop height issue - off the ramps, from the front, it really doesn't look too bad:
(http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/6632/car195bb.jpg)
From the back, I'm not too sure (cue the roadkill test):
(http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/8339/car206zs.jpg)
(http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/6341/car219ga.jpg)
I've left scope for adjustment upwards - this is as low as its gonna get!
NOOOOOO!!! SAVE ROLAND!!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Glad you got that leak fixed buddy. You'll be there in no time now.
eyore is such a badass. the kit looks awesome.
Quote from: "spit"(http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/6341/car219ga.jpg)
s:lol: :lol: s:lol: That one made my day, thanks for that s;) ;) s;) Took away the pain of getting a NIP for an SP30 a little.
i suggested to someone else on here who was dooing this that they put a mesh rabbit catcher over the front face of the scoop, dont know what you think, this wouldn't effect the airflow at all, just think of the cost if one does go through?????
bad luck Aaron s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"i suggested to someone else on here who was dooing this that they put a mesh rabbit catcher over the front face of the scoop, dont know what you think, this wouldn't effect the airflow at all, just think of the cost if one does go through?????
A pretty good idea I reckon - good for stopping flicked up stones etc too, as you wouldn't want one of those puncturing an IC, let alone any roadkill hitting it.
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "kanujunkie"i suggested to someone else on here who was dooing this that they put a mesh rabbit catcher over the front face of the scoop, dont know what you think, this wouldn't effect the airflow at all, just think of the cost if one does go through?????
A pretty good idea I reckon - good for stopping flicked up stones etc too, as you wouldn't want one of those puncturing an IC, let alone any roadkill hitting it.
Excellent suggestion, gents - thanks. I'll add it to the expanding shopping list s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I'm thinking that something mounted from scoop edge up to the front of the chassis cross member will work well (& it'll angle stuff down & clear at the same time).
Another update - managed a whole 2 hours graft since the last post!
First up, Dan, you'll be pleased to know that no animals were harmed etc.... (turns out they're machine washable too!):
(http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1432/car267rt.jpg)
OK. Air pipes. I've had trouble aligning these because of the diagonal chassis brace, but here's the Apexi finally in place, with "reasonable" clearance all round. I've shortened the recirc pipe by 20mm to be in with a chance of getting to it:
(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/543/car232uo.jpg)
First effort with the compressor to IC tube was misguided & useless - I just got it all wrong s:oops: :oops: s:oops: - pipe too close to the chassis brace & exhaust (:shock:), everything under tension, and no chance with the BOV. "DOH!":
(http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/5479/car249ic.jpg)
Twist it and everything falls into place....and plenty of scope for shielding the air pipes from the exhaust:
(http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/2871/car255db.jpg)
Looking at the BOV pipes in the last photo, I'm in with a chance of connecting them with a flexible hose behind the brace (the BOV is already sitting in the top hole (CAI side). Tonight's questions:
1. Is there a downside in using a long-ish hose (c. 20cm)?
2. Does it matter which end the BOV is fitted? (assuming its the right way round of course s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
I've been around to see Spit today while he let me use his garage and helped me change my oil. Cheers mate. s8) 8) s8)
The kit looks excellent especially with it's lovely black coated finish, it is nearly there now and I'm looking forward to seeing it when it is complete.
Ste is taking time and care with the install, making sure that any problems are ironed out as he goes along, the feedback he is giving to Gas will make it much easier for anyone else who goes down this route in the future.
Now I just need to look down the back of the sofa to find enough spare change for the kit!!! s:? :? s:?
Firstly, my thanks are overdue to Stu, Mark, Ian, Sean, Alberto, Gas, Aaron, Dan, Tem, Russ, Steve, Liz, Lee, Barking, Dream & all of the other thread contributors. Its pretty clear to me that without such a comprehensive network of support and encouragement offered by MR2ROC I wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance with this project. Its thanks to you lot that its even got this far.
s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Just a quick update today. I'll start with the progress & finish with the questions.......heeeelp!
BOV is sorted. Rather than faff about with a kinked straight hose s:shock: :shock: s:shock: , I've put a Samco 45 elbow in:
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5596/car278hh.jpg)
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/9603/car284tw.jpg)
IC to TB is now installed too, with MAF in place:
(http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/3344/car338oa.jpg)
This bit of the kit fits really well, but I had to ream out the MAF holes slightly to accommodate the allen bolts.
Plugs are swapped for a colder set, gapped at 0.8mm. The ones that came out were gapped in ft and inches!!! (note to self - check plugs a bit more often s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ):
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7236/car316ac.jpg)
I'm leaving the stock injectors for the moment - as you've probably gathered by now, this project isn't exactly being rushed, and there are some issues to sort out about the map and tuning plans.
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1517/car308zp.jpg)
OK, a couple of questions..... I'll stick with the engine bay stuff for the moment - there are plenty of EManage issues still to come s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: & I'll bore you with these tomorrow.
The C2 solution for BOV and Actuator reference lines differs from the Hass. Numerous PMs (thanks guys) are steering me towards the "keep it simple" principle of taking a tee from the VSV line to go to the BOV and then running on with another tee to the actuator.
1) will this work, or is there a better solution?
2) does it matter where in the line a boost gauge is tapped in? (I'm hoping not).
If you want a picture of a woefully grubby car to scribble your thoughts on.....
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2383/car323vz.jpg)
The only other under-bonnet thing to sort is the crankcase ventilation hose. Gas has kindly sent a baby filter, so I'll be venting to atmosphere & plugging the TB - the catch can idea is nice, but its a long way to travel to get back to the intake on the C2!
Thats it for now. Any specific pictures you want before the heatshields go on, let me know.
Ste
Quote from: "spit"1) will this work, or is there a better solution?
2) does it matter where in the line a boost gauge is tapped in? (I'm hoping not).
1) I have the same with the TopSecret kit for BOV and it works.
For the actuator/wastegate/controller I'd get the boost right after the turbo, before IC or anything else and definitely before the throttle plate.
2) Well, there are different boost levels in different parts of the intake. The boost is a bit lower after every obstacle, like IC, MAF, TB. You're probably interested in the boost entering the engine, so you'll want to get it from the intake manifold or thereabouts.
(my gauge it teed from the same VSV hose where the BOV gets the boost)
Quote from: "spit"(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2383/car323vz.jpg)
The only other under-bonnet thing to sort is the crankcase ventilation hose. Gas has kindly sent a baby filter, so I'll be venting to atmosphere & plugging the TB - the catch can idea is nice, but its a long way to travel to get back to the intake on the C2!
Thats it for now. Any specific pictures you want before the heatshields go on, let me know.
Ste
Hey Spit nice work!
Dont forget to plug the bigger hole on the throttle body that leads to the valve cover. That would blow air into the engine.
The smaller one that goes to the back of the valve cover is fine as it has a valve.
I am not sure but did you get a "festo" adapter? if yes the use a small rubber hose (8mm black,5cm long in the kit). push the hose into that throttle hole and screw the festo in the rubber. This case you get the source for the BOV. lice in the pic:
(http://www.c2design.hu/celica/BOVloc.JPG)
Quote from: "c2gas"The smaller one that goes to the back of the valve cover is fine as it has a valve.
It does have a valve, but it will NOT hold boost. The repair manual procedure to check the valve is:
(a) Blow air into the cylinder head side, and check that air passes through easily.
(b) Blow air into the intake manifold side, and check that it has a little difficulty for the air to pass through.
It works as a "one way" valve only under vacuum conditions. Boost will flow through it.
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "c2gas"The smaller one that goes to the back of the valve cover is fine as it has a valve.
It does have a valve, but it will NOT hold boost. The repair manual procedure to check the valve is:
(a) Blow air into the cylinder head side, and check that air passes through easily.
(b) Blow air into the intake manifold side, and check that it has a little difficulty for the air to pass through.
It works as a "one way" valve only under vacuum conditions. Boost will flow through it.
I was going to post on EManage tonight s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes: , but I think its important to get my head around this first.
We're talking about the two vent pipes going into the valve cover. On the intake side is a large pipe that links before the throttle plate. This is no use as a vacuum source so I plug the TB hole and put a filter onto the pipe. I'm OK with it so far.....
On the exhaust side is a smaller pipe (deceptively largened because of a rubber jacket!). This connects behind/after the throttle plate, so this is where you (Gas) suggest I source the BOV and Actuator reference lines, yes?
So what do I do with the open end of the smaller pipe? Do I just leave it open?
If I understand you right, Gas, the pipe is OK because the cover is now only vented to atmosphere through the filter on the larger pipe. Is it really as easy as this, or am I missing something?
Ste,
I'm not really following you, so I'll start from scratch.
looking at teh car from teh rear.
the cam cover has 2 pipes coming from it, one to teh left and one to teh rear.
The one to the rear is teh cranckcase breather and connects to the throttle body itself.
You should cap this at teh throttle body, and preferably put a filter on teh crankcase end to stop any shit from being sucked in.
Next up is teh one to teh left.
there is a PCV valve screwed into teh can cover, attached to this is a hose that feeds to teh intake manifold.
The PCV allows crankcase vapours to be sucked out of teh cranckcase and burnt, this only actuates when teh intake manifold pressure is less than teh crankcase pressure. i.e when teh intake is under vaccuum.
However since your now boosted the intake manifold will spend most of it's time under positive pressure. (boost)
As Tem said the PCV is actually a 2 way valve and can open in reverse when under boost.
now if you hadn't already disconnected teh breather hose, what would happen is that under boost your crankcase would pressurise and force oil to piss out wherever the path of least resistance is.
We know we did it with Seans (thanks Jay for teh shit instructions)
however since the breather is disconnected you can leave the PCV feed in place. Now under vacuum vapours are evacuated as normal but under boost and pressure will blow straight out oif teh breather port.
Wether this is prefferable is up to you Sean, Dan, and I (I beelive Tem as well) have purchased Krankvents to solve this issue. We discussed them on here so a quick search on Krankvents here or on SC should explain it.
On teh Hass kit the vacuum reference for teh Profec, BOV and Wastegate are all teed of the pipe leading from the PCV. So far no issues.
hope that helps.
Quote from: "markiii"now if you hadn't already disconnected the breather hose, what would happen is that under boost your crankcase would pressurise and force oil to piss out wherever the path of least resistance is.
We know we did it with Seans (thanks Jay for the s**t instructions)
If it's any comfort, he's not the only one s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
QuoteWether this is prefferable is up to you Sean, Dan, and I (I beelive Tem as well) have purchased Krankvents to solve this issue.
Yeah, I got them as well. Vacuum is a good thing in there.
I'm not sure if this helps or confuses people more, but here goes...
When the car is stock, the two PositiveCrankcaseVentilation pipes are used to create vacuum in the engine (not in the cylinders obviously) and get the fumes back to intake and cylinders instead of outdoors. The first is a good thing, it'll make your piston rings seal better and for example possible leaks in the oilpan seal only cause air to enter the engine, instead of oil blowing out. The latter is for emissions only and will get sh...poop in your intake in the long run.
Still stock...the vent makes the air flow out of the engine from the exhaust side and in from the inlet side. Blocking the inlet hose and putting a filter in the engine will keep the crankcase off boost, but also off vacuum. It'll work, but it could be better.
The other is similar. You can just block it and it'll work. But it would be best to create some vacuum in there. That's of course impossible when you have boost in the intake...without some additional stuff that is. Some use an electrical vacuum pump, some use these as mark mentioned:
m http://www.et-performance.com/automotive.html (http://www.et-performance.com/automotive.html) m
I'm sure there are more options out there.
So yes, the easy answer is that you can just install a filter in the inlet side and block the exhaust side. You won't have vacuum in there, but you won't have boost either. It'll work, but it could be better.
Whatever you do, don't block both, cause you'll again build boost in the engine (some always escape from the cylinders through the piston seals).
(sorry for repeating some stuff...had already written it while mark posted the previous s8) 8) s8) )
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c253/discovery89/Graphic1.jpg)
Thanks for your posts, guys. Much appreciated.
Spynish & I have had a good chat with Gas tonight to clarify the C2 arrangement. It basically ties in with your description Tem, with the crankcase isolated from intake/TB boost.
Where the breather and PCV hoses would normally clamp to the TB (one either side of the throttle plate) are where the C2 taps for actuator and BOV references. Crankcase breather is then put on a filter and PCV is open to air.
I'll check out the Krankvents too, Mark - cheers.
Tune in tomorrow for EManage s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
Ste
Yo Ste,
Hows it going mate? 'Tis all looking good from this end. I know its daft but i was thinking about the cooler scoop, you might be able to get a grill for it from M&P as some of the bike stuff might fit. Dunno if its worth a shot?
Later mate
Tim
Quote from: "savagebiker650"Yo Ste,
Hows it going mate? 'Tis all looking good from this end. I know its daft but i was thinking about the cooler scoop, you might be able to get a grill for it from M&P as some of the bike stuff might fit. Dunno if its worth a shot?
Later mate
Tim
Hey Tim - nice of you to drop in s:wink: :wink: s:wink: & hugs to Trace and the family.
Stu's grill suggestion is a good 'un. DTweeks had some nice stuff in but it cost more than the kit s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ! I'll have another hunt at the weekend...
.....although, isn't there a bit of grill on the front of your bike that'd fit nicely?! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Friend in need and all that s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Go well bud,
Ste
Final stages now - lots of niggly little jobs to do at the weekend.
First up, a picture for reference of the PCV return and breather points either side of the throttle plate:
(http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/5295/car362ed.jpg)
Rather than muck about with the wiring harnesses, I've put a grommet in for the wideband.....to be sealed with a blob of silicone....still waiting for those other gauges from the US though ..... will they ever arrive s:? :? s:?
(http://img281.imageshack.us/img281/2559/car346ue.jpg)
Gotta mount this somewhere relatively cool:
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/1225/car358em.jpg)
OK. EManage time.
(http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/6180/car299wh.jpg)
Cheers to all of you who rallied to my PMs over the weekend. The wiring is a lot less scary than it originally seemed. Still a few questions.....at the end.....but first some general comments about the C2 EManage.
I can foresee a struggle here - at the moment we're unable to get the Greddy software cable - Gas has had some on order for a while & I've had no joy directly with the "clone cable" guy in the USA, so its stock injectors for now and an early map s:cry: :cry: s:cry: Gas, Alberto & I are currently trying to work this out between us for our mutual benefit. If anyone out there in ROC-land can help, please let me know.
News that might shock some of you s:shock: :shock: s:shock: The C2 kits don't use the ignition harness. Gas is content that the stock ECU/knock sensor allows for enough control at our boost level to avoid detonation. I've queried the fact that Alberto seems to be running a little rich (is this to compensate?), and both he and I are considering getting the harness so that I can get some higher-boost maps done at Thor for us to share (my base level is apparently set close to 6psi).
Given the setup problems yet to come re. cable/bigger injectors/software etc., I'm just going to press on for now and take stock once the car is running (will the day ever come s:? :? s:? ), but I'd value your thoughts on the harness vs no harness approach at 6psi.
OK. 3 questions:
1. I've had conflicting PMs about the 12v power source on the ECU - is it E2 pin 8 or E2 pin 16? or is either one OK?
2. Does anyone have the 4 ECU pin idents for heater+/heater ground and signal/signal ground for the O2 sensor (preferably bank 1 but both if you have 'em) I could probably figure this out with the meter but its not easy single-handed.
3. The Innovate doesn't tap the ECU for its O2 heater & ground. So, do I go with the 15 ohm resistor trick to avoid heater circuit CELs?
Thanks in advance,
Ste
I wouldn't use the stock setup to control knock. I recall reading that if it detects knock, it will back off a LOT and come back very slowly. If that's the case, you'll lose a lot of power with that. And in the long run it'll always knock a little before it fixes it, which can't be good.
Note that it's just something I've read and I'm not sure if it's true...
Quote from: "spit"1. I've had conflicting PMs about the 12v power source on the ECU - is it E2 pin 8 or E2 pin 16? or is either one OK?
2. Does anyone have the 4 ECU pin idents for heater+/heater ground and signal/signal ground for the O2 sensor (preferably bank 1 but both if you have 'em) I could probably figure this out with the meter but its not easy single-handed.
3. The Innovate doesn't tap the ECU for its O2 heater & ground. So, do I go with the 15 ohm resistor trick to avoid heater circuit CELs?
1. E2/8 is from ignition switch and E2/16 gets 12V when the EFI MAIN RELAY is on. I'd use E2/8 if you want 12V when you turn the switch on, but both are probably ok.
(and E2/1 if you want constant 12V from battery)
2. pin1 black/yellow is heater from ecu, pin2 black/red is 12V through EFI MAIN RELAY, pin3 black is signal to ecu, pin4 brown is ground. Banks2&3 are same, except the pin1 has blue/black and black/white wires.
(pin1 is probably heater ground and pin2 heater power, please measure it to be sure s8) 8) s8) )
3. Yeah, if you take the stock o2 sensors out, you need heater resistors to keep the ecu happy.
I also used E2/8 for switched 12v
Here where my WB contrller is. Innovatemotorsports intended these to be installed between the frame rails exposed to the elements so I thnk they're pretty tough.(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3069/wbmbc3lf.th.jpg) (http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wbmbc3lf.jpg)
I agree with TEM on the IGN harness - you will want it. Its probably not quite as critical if the MAF is after the I/C because the ECU will see true temperature and adjust timing accordingly (Iknow its a different question..). The knock sensor is supposed to be pretty good but the firmware was not designed with boost in mind. I would not be too concerned at 6psi. If/when you do add the harness the JP2 jumper inside the emanage has to be changed so:
JP2-----1-to-2 is default make it connect pins 2 & 3 with the IGN harness.
Greddy cables and groups
Greddy E-manage: m http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/EmanageFAQ.txt (http://www.mohdparts.com/emanage/EmanageFAQ.txt) m
m http://drizze99.conforums3.com/index.cgi?action=login2 (http://drizze99.conforums3.com/index.cgi?action=login2) m - You can get everything from here
m http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/) m
If you end up with a USB-USB "Simon" clone cable you'll need the driver.
m http://3w.car-hacker.com/pub/usb_driver.zip (http://3w.car-hacker.com/pub/usb_driver.zip) m - Works fine on win98 USBV1.00
Gilligan clone cable
m http://www.geocities.com/gilligan_rocks/ (http://www.geocities.com/gilligan_rocks/) m
Great information guys. I feel more comfortable about the detonation issue now, particularly as it looks like there will be a hiatus between getting the car going and getting it going well......this is one of the reasons I opted for the LC-1/XD-1 combo. Ign harness looks inevitable though - I doubt Thor will want to tune without it.
Thanks for the heads-up on jumper settings, WTS. I'd already hijacked your brains by stealth at http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23940 but wasn't clear about the relationship between JP2 and with/without ign harness s:wink: :wink: s:wink: The cable links are much appreciated too.
I'll update at the weekend. The only other discussion point I'd like to raise in the meantime is heatshields. Big ugly black shield is going back on (with or without its horizontal tray?) to avoid the Alberto meltdown syndrome s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
There are also options to fabricate isolators between IC in/out pipes and exhaust (and even exhaust and main engine bay). Also, boot lid drip tray - in or out?
Thoughts?
Ste
probably worth doing however I;d wait
reasons
1. you have all your pipes coated and don't yet know how effective that wil be
2. it's more to remove when troubleshooting, and there will be some initially
Hi Spit,
I don't know if the guy you have talk to is this:
e
johnshepley2002@yahoo.co.uk e
He makes USB cables, and is from the UK:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/emanage/message/11288
But it may be the one you know... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "spit"I'll update at the weekend. The only other discussion point I'd like to raise in the meantime is heatshields. Big ugly black shield is going back on (with or without its horizontal tray?) to avoid the Alberto meltdown syndrome s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
There are also options to fabricate isolators between IC in/out pipes and exhaust (and even exhaust and main engine bay). Also, boot lid drip tray - in or out?
I realize the HASS and C2 have different configuration but I never put the OEM shields back on.
The cat should already have a heatshield around it. My CATCO did and it registers <200F(303C) when the output pipe on on the cat is over 500F(932C)
I would get the basic install finished and shaken down before addressing thermal management because there will be a bit of debugging and general fiddling.
My upper drip tray just went back in for the winter but I have insufficient experience with it in place to suggest anything. Its been off for 3 years prior to turbo.
Bit late reporting back to you this week - entered the twilight zone on Saturday and had a total non-weekend s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Anyhoo, Emanage is in. My soldering skills are dire but everything checks out fine and healthy. Been putting this off but it really wasn't as bad as expected thanks to sound guidance from the ROC crew.
Heads-up to anyone going down this route - don't follow the Greddy instructions - they are useless & will have you in knots.
So - from this.....
(http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/6180/car299wh.jpg)
.....to this:
(http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/2550/car375wm.jpg)
I stripped out the unused airflow wires from the harness, leaving just the essentials. Time to start the car.....
Brrrrm.....bog......brrm....splut....brrm....bog splut knock. A few permutations later - the same. I'm getting a very healthy vacuum on idle (-0.6 to -0.8bar?) - which just about holds its own after a minute or two, but no chance to blip the throttle without vicious bogging. No sign of leaks, no CELs, and everything ran beautifully pre-E-Manage.....but then this is all part of the challenge.
The prime suspect is a mapping prob - we're expecting to see Alberto's stock injector base map, but maybe its trimmed for the larger injectors or just completely AWOL. Ian has kindly offered a loan of his Greddy USB/serial cable so I have half a chance of seeing whats going on. Until then I'm blind s8) 8) s8) and if it isn't the map, I'm also stuffed for ideas s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Anybody?
More to do in the meantime though - I'm leaving stock O2s in place for now and gonna plumb the wideband separately until this is sorted.
And the elusive Greddy gauges have arrived - hoorah s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: .... but the instructions are in Japanese - anti-hoorah s:( :( s:(
.....Tem to the rescue s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown: Cheers matey!
Did anyone see the hurdling machines on scrap. challenge this week? Thats how I feel at the mo s:? :? s:? ......& still thoroughly loving it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Ste
Well, you certainly have the right attitude!
QuoteI stripped out the unused airflow wires from the harness, leaving just the essentials
Huh?, there arent any "unused" airflow wires and the engine's acting like it doesnt see a MAF signal at all. Its not the EM map (yet).
Is the MAF in backward?
Throttle Calibration - need the EM cable and a laptop.
Injector correction factor s/b .610 to .634 for the 380-420cc injectors.
Quote from: "wts"Well, you certainly have the right attitude!
QuoteI stripped out the unused airflow wires from the harness, leaving just the essentials
Huh?, there arent any "unused" airflow wires and the engine's acting like it doesnt see a MAF signal at all. Its not the EM map (yet).
Is the MAF in backward?
Throttle Calibration - need the EM cable and a laptop.
Injector correction factor s/b .610 to .634 for the 380-420cc injectors.
Just to qualify my statement about the airflow wires - the harness comes with wiring for different sensor types. I've wired EM pins 3&10 in series with purple wire (ECU E4 pin 11) - Green to ECU side, White to Engine side. Stripped out the unused ones.
MAF is the same way round as before s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Its a good idea to start the car after each Greddy harness is installed. This isolates the problem to either the main, ign or inj harnesses.
If you've done all three since the last startup you may have to disconnect each until the problem stops.
I suspect the
1. main harness
2. TPS calibration
3. vacuum leak.
4. MAF
You'll be able to eliminate 2 & 4 using the support tool.
Jeez it was cold this weekend, but having thawed out I can give you an update.
The vroom-splut thing was down to no maps in EManage. Uploaded Spyni's map and got the vroom without the splut s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Most of the sub-zero garage time this weekend has been spent routing cables for the gauges, fabricating extension harnesses for those that just wouldn't reach (all of them!) and gingerly pootling around the icy streets of Manchester trying not to crash!.......
Everything in and loosely placed - stuff to move once I pluck up the courage to lose the stock O2s and get the wideband to emulate them:
(http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3559/car394om.jpg)
Gauges in an upside-down pod pending fabrication of a custom mount:
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4070/car408em.jpg)
.......& now I know how the turbo guys feel - even the slightest blip of the throttle and the kick is awesome. Me happy s:P :P s:P There are some pretty serious mapping (and meteorological!) issues to get right before I can happily put my foot down - seem to be running very lean at low revs which knocked the car into jerky misfires at stop-start crawling speed, threw a CEL and had me resetting the ECU just to get home on Sunday s:cry: :cry: s:cry: Get it past 2k revs and into the 12-14 AFR range & everything goes supersonic though s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
At idle and low throttle the AFR is dancing around trying to hit stochiometric (I guess), but never gets below the 15's & 16's. Airflow adjustment at low revs and up to 15% throttle position (the range that seems to be leaning out) is mapped to between -10% & -15%. My fuzzy logic is telling me that this is too much for the ECU to compensate for in closed loop.
So tonight's questions relate to the map......
Could this be my problem?
Should I back off the numbers in this part of the map and see what happens?
Why is it working for Spyni?
15 and 16 seem awfully lean to me. i LOVE that gauge pod. would you mind giving somemore info and pics s:P :P s:P s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
IIRC, received wisdom was to shoot for about 13-14:1 at the very low end and then 11-11.5:1 at the top end. Having said that, I'm no tuner s:) :) s:)
Does Spyni have the same injectors as you? (i.e. are you running his Celica-injector map with your stock injectors in?)
Quote from: "warmerthanpiss"15 and 16 seem awfully lean to me. i LOVE that gauge pod. would you mind giving somemore info and pics s:P :P s:P s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Yes, lean is right - don't know why its working OK for Spyni s:shock: :shock: s:shock: He isn't showing any of these low-rev lean misfire symptoms.
The pod is a "Fast and Furious". Designed for 52mm gauges so I reamed out holes 1 & 3 to take the Greddys. My first thought was to mount it on the flat of the cubby lid (where it looks neat) but I'm now thinking of fabricating a plate to nestle under the lid - sort of where they are now but tidy! Not certain yet - might revert to the "on-top" plan....its easier s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
The pod is slightly too wide to fit in the hole and slightly too deep to mount in front of it, so I just rotated the gauges 180 degrees and wedged it there for now.
I'll get some in-focus pics for you later s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "aaronjb"IIRC, received wisdom was to shoot for about 13-14:1 at the very low end and then 11-11.5:1 at the top end. Having said that, I'm no tuner
Does Spyni have the same injectors as you? (i.e. are you running his Celica-injector map with your stock injectors in?)
I think you're right Aaron. Stoich is 14.7:1, max power is in the 12s IIRC. I've recalibrated the wideband a few times (and each follow-up check has it consistently reading 20.9% O2 in free air) so I'm pretty sure the feedback data is right.
Spyni and I are on the same map and both still on stocks, so I'm confused. Its a newer map that he and Gas leaned out a little cos he was getting a too-rich CEL, but those changes were in a higher rev range than I'm suffering with.
One thing that did confuse me was the injection correction factor in the EManage is >1 s:? :? s:? (ie smaller than stock injectors) Then it occurred to me that Gas may have used a Celica map as his starting point and stepped it back in this way for the '2s stocks. Presumably I should just bring it back down to "1" when the Celica injectors go in.
The only material difference I can think of between our cars is that I'm J-Spec and Alberto is Euro, but my knowledge of the ECU differences isn't enough to understand if or why it would make a difference.....
Maybe you have different sized stock injectors or something?
I've traded some PFC maps with guys in US, UK and EU and the ones from US&UK make my car run bloody rich and my maps make them lean. Only maps within EU seem to work as they should, both ways.
Wasn't spynish from Spain (=EU) and you from UK...maybe that explains it?
Quote from: "Tem"Maybe you have different sized stock injectors or something?
I've traded some PFC maps with guys in US, UK and EU and the ones from US&UK make my car run bloody rich and my maps make them lean. Only maps within EU seem to work as they should, both ways.
Wasn't spynish from Spain (=EU) and you from UK...maybe that explains it?
Interesting thought Tem, and certainly the signs are pointing towards some inherent difference between J-Spec (me) and EU (spynish). Aside, I wasn't aware that
UK and EU were different though s:? :? s:?
If anything, I guess the J-Spec MR-S is more akin to US than EU. Bill has some maps that might prove useful, but I've looked at the US Hass maps and they're way different across the board (and have ignition correction in, which I don't....yet..... it'll be on prior to dyno tune s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Until I get this sorted and up the revs, I won't know if its across the board or just some ECU peculiarity in the lower rev range...... or maybe my turbo is just spinning ridiculously freely and defying physics at idle s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Perhaps Ian or some of the other MR-S FI guys can throw some light on the anomaly?
Ste
Quote from: "spit"Aside, I wasn't aware that UK and EU were different though s:? :? s:?
Uh...now that you mentioned it, I'm not sure if it was or wasn't s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Either way, if your mixtures seem weird, you should have it tuned before you drive more.
Ste,
Glad to hear it has now moved under it's own steam!
I bet you're not looking forward to learning to drive 'turbo' in this weather! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I used my tuned map in Perry's car and i put my wideband in his to test.It gave the same readings as on mine. His was a UK car mine the JSpec, so there's no difference between these models.
I would simply save the maps you have on to your laptop and reset the emanage to zero values. The car should run fine as the ECU isn't being altered by the EM just don't put it in boost. If it doesn't then it's a wiring issue (or faulty EM), if it does then it's the mapping. When you know which it is you can load the map back in (if you want)
Cheers for the input guys. I'm getting closer with it now. By-passing EM is OK but a bit lean at idle, but there's no doubt that quite a bit of air is getting shifted through at low revs - presumably a few iterations of the ECU in closed loop will get to grips with this? (although I really don't know what I'm talking about s:oops: :oops: s:oops: )
Back on the map, I eased back some of the high -ves in the upper left quadrant of the airflow map just to see what happened - sure enough, warm idle and low revs came down to 14-15. Must try under load when the roads get gritted s:? :? s:?
And for you, Warmerthan.....back the right way up.......
(http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/1919/car411qn.jpg)
Ignore the AFR of 43 s:shock: :shock: s:shock: It was after shutdown and hadn't reverted to %O2. Must get the software hooked up and edit the gauge features a little.
(By the way, I found a well-priced source for the wideband and gauge in the UK. PM me if you want details and I'll root them out).
representin Walmart. I attend the business college founded by Sam Walton.
Quote from: "warmerthanpiss"representin Walmart. I attend the business college founded by Sam Walton.
good for you
I'm afraid you lost me there too Warmerthan.....
Returning to the plot:
Quote from: "spit"Back on the map, I eased back some of the high -ves in the upper left quadrant of the airflow map just to see what happened - sure enough, warm idle and low revs came down to 14-15. Must try under load when the roads get gritted s:? :? s:?
Pretty mild tonight so I've been for a run up and over to Macclesfield. I made a few stops, checks and restarts on the way and everything is rock solid. No CELs, no misfires, no problems. The AFR is much more stable now at pootle speeds and the car is just as easy to drive in traffic as it was before.....
.....then with a little blip on the throttle - woohoo warp speed s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: with the AFR safely nestled in the power band. And it sounds great (I used your infamous H&S noise test tunnels Rusty s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
If any of you are considering FI, you've gotta go for it! The '2 is such an excellent base car for the turbo treatment, and that first kick is like a smile on a stick s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
The C2 is a very nicely engineered piece of kit - challenging at times to install, but as a non-mechanic Noob thats probably a testament to my (in)competence. Most of my weekends were spent pondering, staring and drinking coffee. Solid build time was probably no more than a few days!
There's more to come. Bigger injectors and ignition harness will go in next, then its off to Thor (or somewhere) to get the whole lot mapped and dyno'd. But not just yet.....I have to find an excuse to go places s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Need milk? Hmmm, I'm sure there's an all-night Tesco in Oxford s:P :P s:P
....and finally, something to please you all: for the first time since I started this thread.....no questions!!!
well done mate, glad to see shes all up and running
nice job s:D :D s:D
Well done buddy! Pretty impressive for a "non-mechanic Noob". Looking forward to seeing it sometime in the new year.
Have you been to here m http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html (http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html) m to talk about tuning? They are right on your doorstep and definately tune and use emanage's in their custom jobs. Says on their site £45 an hour to tune.
Quote from: "spit"Need milk? Hmmm, I'm sure there's an all-night Tesco in Oxford s:P :P s:P
There is and it is just down the raod from me, so pop in if you need a coffee with your milk!
s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Simon
Thanks people. I'll see you soon Simon s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Have you been to here m http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html (http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html) m to talk about tuning? They are right on your doorstep and definately tune and use emanage's in their custom jobs. Says on their site £45 an hour to tune.
I tried them first Ian. They do have considerable experience with EManage, but don't have a rolling road dyno - which probably means they go whizzing up and down the M61. Don't particularly fancy that..... & their price for EManage mapping was about £275+VAT for a half-day IIRC (major hard drive crash - lost the quote s:evil: :evil: s:evil: )
Thor have been good to the Hass crew, and Peter has assured me the best possible tune, even though they may have a potential conflict of interest with their own FI kits!
Excellent work! I can't wait for the dyno...
Quote from: "spit"Thanks people. I'll see you soon Simon s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo"Have you been to here m http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html (http://www.hypersr.com/index2.html) m to talk about tuning? They are right on your doorstep and definately tune and use emanage's in their custom jobs. Says on their site £45 an hour to tune.
I tried them first Ian. They do have considerable experience with EManage, but don't have a rolling road dyno - which probably means they go whizzing up and down the M61. Don't particularly fancy that..... & their price for EManage mapping was about £275+VAT for a half-day IIRC (major hard drive crash - lost the quote s:evil: :evil: s:evil: )
Thor have been good to the Hass crew, and Peter has assured me the best possible tune, even though they may have a potential conflict of interest with their own FI kits!
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:shock: :shock: s:shock: When i first installed my kit all them years ago s:roll: :roll: s:roll: i contacted them and they said they were moving premises soon to incorporate a rolling road, can't believe they haven't sorted it then.
I don't doubt Thor's work at all, just a 2hour drive untuned, i thought would be somthing you wouldn't want.
Glad it's all running good now. s:D :D s:D
Good effort - I seriously need to pop mover and have a look s:P :P s:P . You about this Saturday?
Quote from: "mr-s_turbo".....just a 2hour drive untuned, i thought would be somthing you wouldn't want.
Well, this is why Hypersports was a preferred option, and a good call Ian, but they don't seem to have moved that side of their business along all that much s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I'm pretty sure that the tune is safe enough to enjoy a drive to the Midlands now - AFR is constantly sensible and still no CELs. I'll be off-boost most of the way too, and will trundle down with a neutral ignition map and compensation ratio once the injectors are done.....hopefully in a few weeks.
Russ, I shouldn't be far away this weekend & wanna see those tyres of yours too. Will call you Sat. morning.
Ste
Ste,
Nice work mate, good to hear that the maps have sorted a few issues.
I'm away for the next couple of weekends, can I blag a ride in a couple of weeks? s8) 8) s8)
Steve
Quote from: "Two's Company"Ste,
Nice work mate, good to hear that the maps have sorted a few issues.
I'm away for the next couple of weekends, can I blag a ride in a couple of weeks? s8) 8) s8)
Steve
No probs Steve.
I've just had a chat with the GM of Camcoat about a rolling road dyno nearer to home. He doesn't make recommendations unless he is happy that a firm are seriously decent, and he's come up with a local Company. I knew about them, but didn't know they had all the gear s:oops: :oops: s:oops: Will post details later if it turns out to be a useful lead.....
Ste, good to see you on Saturday. Your installation looks great, nice and neat and well thought out. I've been pondering over the bogging problem and to keep with my keep it simple philosophy, here's my thoughts.
The bogging occurs around 2K, which could be where the ECU goes from closed to open loop mode. This is a bit of a guess but it would be interesting to try and test that this is the case by varying the amount of throttle you are giving the engine to see if this RPM varies at all as I understand that the engine goes open loop when a calculation is performed by the ECU on a certain number of parameters. Therefore it should be possible to change this by altering the degree of throttle input. Obvioulsy this isn't a conclusive test but it points us in the right direction.
If we are pretty sure that the bogging occurs when the ECU goes open loop then there's a few possibilities: The map may be wrong at that point, or there may be some issue with the MAF sensor or TPS sensor. See the link below:
http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7576&highlight=bov
I would start by checking the things outlined in the link as thay are the simplest and most obvious and could be fairly quickly and easily eliminated. I can't remember your breather pipe setup but could it be possible that oil has recirced back through the BOV and the intake system, dirtying these sensors?
Disclaimer (vitual flamesuit) - let me just state to everyone that I've never installed a turbo and my only real knowledge is a final year engine combustion module during my BEng Mech eng degree at Leeds Uni and the stuff I've picked up from here and Spyderchat. I'm by no means an expert on this stuff but I'm hoping that by applying a little logic we can solve the problem. If anyone has any other theories please muck in, the more brains working on it the better. Then again, should I be talking about brains in a turbo thread as a frontal lobotomy and the removal of ones fear glands must be a prerequesite for anyone who decides that they require acceleration akin to something powered by dilythium crystals s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Only joking guys - this site's a better place with the amount of turbo nutters we now have. I'm seriously tempted myself.
Jay Hass has commented taht the car runs better with out teh stock o2s but I'm not quite sure how you would connect that up
might be worth a a try.
Quote from: "markiii"Jay Hass has commented taht the car runs better with out the stock o2s but I'm not quite sure how you would connect that up
might be worth a a try.
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: You dont want to try this with the emanage!Its not even possible.
Jay used the PFC and completly REMOVED THE STOCK ECU to do so.
Quote from: "wts"Quote from: "markiii"Jay Hass has commented taht the car runs better with out the stock o2s but I'm not quite sure how you would connect that up
might be worth a a try.
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: You dont want to try this with the emanage!Its not even possible.
Jay used the PFC and completly REMOVED THE STOCK ECU to do so.
I had a read of Jay's thread on Spyderchat about this - he loves to experiment s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Update time..... a bit of minor surgery, and
no more bogging !!!:bounce:
I'd been meaning to scrap the separate O2 signals for a single one....just never got round to it s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
(thanks to Chris @ Hypersports for a much-needed kick up the rump!) Now its done, the car runs in closed loop like a happy monster on his holidays!
It seems as though my O2s were switching voltage at slightly different AFRs.... but because they're side by side, the ECU was working overtime in closed loop to reconcile the mix of banks 1 and 2 with the O2 signals.
Alberto's O2s must be better-matched than mine s:lol: :lol: s:lol: I don't think he's had any sign of this problem.
Dan, I know the Hass still keeps the essence of a 2-bank monitoring, but as it uses a log manifold it might be worth you trying the 2-into-1 signal fix to sort out your 2k hobble.
Ste
I think it's gotta be worth a try, glad you've got it sorted matey! s:D :D s:D
Great news Ste, so it was actually the closed loop mode running that was causing the problem, mmm.... interesting. Your O2s are after the turbo aren't they? And they're both next to each other if I remember correctly? Just out of interest, where's the wideband O2 located? I don't know if it applies to a turbo installation but I'm sure I read somewhere that nearer the engine the better, hence the stock location. In any case it sounds like it's sorted but it'd be interesting to know what was happening and what the ideal setup would be.
Quote from: "RUSTY"Great news Ste, so it was actually the closed loop mode running that was causing the problem, mmm.... interesting. ....... In any case it sounds like it's sorted but it'd be interesting to know what was happening and what the ideal setup would be.
Russ, yes, there was no problem with the EManage map or open-loop performance. It was a closed loop glitch.
In closed loop, the ECU is looking purely at the O2s, which are narrowband and switch voltage at stoich AFR. Mine must be mis-matched slightly (switching at different points), so a problem occured because each O2 was reading a combined mix from all 4 cylinders but the ECU was tuning two banks of cylinders independently s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
The result was ECU suicide..... the ECU was richening one bank while leaning out the other. The two were cancelling out at the sensors, so the ECU was reading that as a mandate to keep going, and spiralling towards the limits of its adjustment capabilities. Doh!
Or - theory 2 (because I got no CEL) is that the ECU was repeatedly flipping one bank rich/lean/rich etc and the other lean/rich/lean etc so that it couldn't settle to a smooth adjustment.
Seems so obvious now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Ste
ps Wideband is currently slightly further along the DP as a temp measure, but will be moving up once I've removed the second stock O2.
Probably why i've never had this problem. The PE O2 placement is useless so i've only ever used 1 O2 from the start.
I've now got my WB as my only O2 sensor and use it's NB output into the main ECU. No other O2 sensor is used.
I was just looking at the Innovate site and they reckon that the Bosch wideband sensor with their controller is good for up to 800 degrees C. Although I did notice that they do a heatsink / extender in the accesories section for turbo or higher temp applications. It'd be interesting to find out what sort of temps are seen at the turbo manifold. Doesn't the Haas kit put the O2 sensors there anyway?
There a few possible reasons for 2 O2 sensors on the stock MR2: 1 - They wanted to mount them before the precats to get an accurate reading, and so used 2 because this means they have to be in seperate branches of the manifold. 2 - As stated by the guys at TTE, it's better to have the O2 sensors as near as possible to the engine block as this setup offers better engine control / throttle response. Or both of the above
I personally think that it's better to have the O2 sensors nearer the engine block as this is what most car makers seem to do.
Quote from: "RUSTY"I was just looking at the Innovate site and they reckon that the Bosch wideband sensor with their controller is good for up to 800 degrees C. Although I did notice that they do a heatsink / extender in the accesories section for turbo or higher temp applications. It'd be interesting to find out what sort of temps are seen at the turbo manifold. Doesn't the Haas kit put the O2 sensors there anyway?
There a few possible reasons for 2 O2 sensors on the stock MR2: 1 - They wanted to mount them before the precats to get an accurate reading, and so used 2 because this means they have to be in seperate branches of the manifold. 2 - As stated by the guys at TTE, it's better to have the O2 sensors as near as possible to the engine block as this setup offers better engine control / throttle response. Or both of the above
I personally think that it's better to have the O2 sensors nearer the engine block as this is what most car makers seem to do.
Reaching 800º degrees is pretty easy... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "spynish"Reaching 800º degrees is pretty easy... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
I got some 950C when I was N/A...I assume turbo would easily break into +1000C without WI.
Good to you again today Ste. Cheers for the drive as well, I need to start saving now so that you have another project to complete next summer! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
The car flies in the lower gears but I'm most impressed with the acceleration at motorway speeds, whereas my N/A gradually builds speed in 6th gear the turbo accelerates in 5th like mine does in 2nd.
Cruising at 80ish floor it and it's at license losing speed instantly (obviously this is what Ste told me happened when he went out on private roads s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Next purchase to finish it off...
m http://www.naonline.co.uk/gps/new-road-angel.php (http://www.naonline.co.uk/gps/new-road-angel.php) m
Quote from: "Tem"I got some 950C when I was N/A...I assume turbo would easily break into +1000C without WI.
I'd have expected temps about the same as NA, maybe less (certainly I'd expect 1000C to be piston-melting temps) since turbo tunes are generally quite a large chunk richer than NA tunes.
Could be wrong, but going on temps I've seen on other cars, 1000C would be somewhat alarming..
Do you not have the EGT plumbed in now you're turbo, Tem?
Quote from: "aaronjb"Do you not have the EGT plumbed in now you're turbo, Tem?
I do, but I never logged the values and I don't recall them good enough to say out loud s:oops: :oops: s:oops: I only remember I had the alarm at 900C at first (that's where the "redline" start in GReddy), but it jumps above that the second I floor it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Also, I never really pushed the car for a long period of time in circumstances where it would get highest temps...
Quote from: "Tem"I do, but I never logged the values and I don't recall them good enough to say out loud s:oops: :oops: s:oops: I only remember I had the alarm at 900C at first (that's where the "redline" start in GReddy), but it jumps above that the second I floor it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Interesting - I must admit, that's a
lot higher than I'd have expected..
I'm almost tempted to steal one of the EGTs out of the Nissan now just to see what mine hits while NA.. s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "aaronjb"Interesting - I must admit, that's a lot higher than I'd have expected..
Likewise s:? :? s:?
Got me worried enough to search for some numbers and here's what I got:
Most modern engines should be fine with a little over 1000C
Generally early 90's turbos can handle 1100C
Nowadays most can handle +1200C and the best +1300C
Personally I use the EGT to watch for any rise in it, not the actual numbers...
Quote from: "Tem"Personally I use the EGT to watch for any rise in it, not the actual numbers...
The best plan, naturally..
But still - those numbers are higher than I'd have thought.. Especially the figures for 90's turbos - if you were to ask folks on the IMOC boards if a Mk2 would survive with those EGTs I suspect they'd say you were crazy. Still - all engines are different (and ours are far more modern - and radically different - from cast iron lumps like the 3S-GTE, admittedly)
Quote from: "aaronjb"But still - those numbers are higher than I'd have thought.. Especially the figures for 90's turbos
I just meant the 90's turbochargers itself, not necessarily the whole engine. So you might burn a valve long before reaching the limit of the turbocharger for example.
Quoteif you were to ask folks on the IMOC boards if a Mk2 would survive with those EGTs I suspect they'd say you were crazy. Still - all engines are different (and ours are far more modern - and radically different - from cast iron lumps like the 3S-GTE, admittedly)
Yeah, seems many old timers say that some 800-850C is the absolute max before your engine dies, while guys familiar with modern engines don't seem to mind +1000C. I guess there has been some development s8) 8) s8)
Quote from: "Tem"Yeah, seems many old timers say that some 800-850C is the absolute max before your engine dies, while guys familiar with modern engines don't seem to mind +1000C. I guess there has been some development s8) 8) s8)
Yeah - lots really, when you consider the technology on some of the older engines (take the VG30DETT, say, which had sodium filled valves, pistons good for 500bhp etc) - we don't even have sodium filled valves (to my knowledge anyway, or do we?)
Maybe it's something to do with open-deck engine design vs. closed-deck cast iron blocks. I feel a google-session coming on s:) :) s:)
spit
I've been following your progress with interest, very tempted by the c2 kit myself s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
How's it going?
Quote from: "Tem"Yeah, seems many old timers say that some 800-850C is the absolute max before your engine dies, while guys familiar with modern engines don't seem to mind +1000C. I guess there has been some development s8) 8) s8)
Coming back to this again - I was thinking the other night.. I wonder if we see such high cylinder temperatures because we're turbocharging a high compression motor?
Most of those 90's turbo applications were running 8.5-9:1 compression, whereas we're what.. 11:1?
Quote from: "aaronjb"Coming back to this again - I was thinking the other night.. I wonder if we see such high cylinder temperatures because we're turbocharging a high compression motor?
Most of those 90's turbo applications were running 8.5-9:1 compression, whereas we're what.. 11:1?
1ZZ is 10:1
I'm not sure how much that affects it. But then again, the older N/A engines have also been around the 10:1..
Quote from: "Tem"But then again, the older N/A engines have also been around the 10:1..
True - I never saw anyone measure EGTs on a 90's style NA engine, though, so that gives us no basis to compare.
Still, it was a thought s:) :) s:)
Quote from: "rmowbray"spit
I've been following your progress with interest, very tempted by the c2 kit myself s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
How's it going?
Going great matey s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Pootles like a pussycat and pulls like a train. If you fancy a spin, PM me. I'm in Woz quite often.
2000 miles post-conversion now and nothing has dropped off or exploded s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (except for the small breather filter which parted company on the M56 due to failure of my Heath Robinson attachment method s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ). If anyone is considering this, do it....its such a laugh.
I've been a little too busy to do all the finish-up jobs (wideband analogue feed, gauge tidy-up, crankvents, bigger injectors, ignition harness etc) and the Christmas list already has some other imperatives (eg security system s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ). A bit of bracing probably wouldn't go amiss either.
The engine finish-ups will be done in the next month or so - turns out that HyperSports are shipping a 4W Dyno in from Sud Afrique as we speak, so I'll probably go to them for map tweaking.
I'm still on stock clutch. Thought it was starting to give up last week, but turns out it was just insane wheel-spin on slimey roads s:? :? s:? 65k miles and counting....
Quote from: "aaronjb and Tem"...."various things temperature-wise"....
A few observations Gents. Since correcting the C/L stumble, my temps have come right down. Granted, I'm measuring immediately post-turbo rather than at the manifold, so you might want to up my numbers a bit....
Pootling at Stoich, I'm hitting about 450-500C, rising to 600-650C at motorway speeds. Under boost, I haven't yet passed 750C, but then the car isn't getting hammered for long periods.
I read an interesting research piece on AF ratio vs temp. It showed that the peak temp of the A/F ratio curve is at Stoich (600C). I always thought it peaked under lean conditions, but I suppose we have to consider the real-world application i.e. what heat is down to AF mix and what is down to the contribution of the mechanicals/compression/timing/cooling efficiency etc.
Must confess, I don't understand it....just keeping an eye on it. At least I don't get 900C in closed loop and impending piston melt now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spit"Since correcting the C/L stumble
What's that?
QuoteI'm measuring immediately post-turbo rather than at the manifold, so you might want to up my numbers a bit....
I suppose the exact amount depends a lot from this and that, but I know that one car loses almost 200C across the turbo. So yes, it makes a big difference.
QuoteI read an interesting research piece on AF ratio vs temp. It showed that the peak temp of the A/F ratio curve is at Stoich (600C). I always thought it peaked under lean conditions, but I suppose we have to consider the real-world application i.e. what heat is down to AF mix and what is down to the contribution of the mechanicals/compression/timing/cooling efficiency etc.
Here's how I explained it to myself. At stoich mixture, you have the most mixture to burn and that's what makes the most energy (=temperature). If you go leaner, you're basically only burning part of the cylinder contents and the rest of the air just passes through. When you go richer, you can think that all the air gets burned, but you have some extra fuel. It takes energy to vaporize that fuel, which brings the temps down. Extra fuel is kinda like poor mans water injection.
In common talk stoich is considered lean under boost.
QuoteAt least I don't get 900C in closed loop and impending piston melt now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
If you have 750C after turbo, you just might s;) ;) s;) Remember that even the temps measured from the manifold pre turbo have already cooled a lot from what you actually have in the cylinders...
Quote from: "Tem"Quote from: "spit"Since correcting the C/L stumble
What's that?
Closed loop stumble - one bank was riching up and one was leaning out due to mismatched O2s with different voltage profiles s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "Tem"In common talk stoich is considered lean under boost.
I hadn't thought of it that way but yes, it makes sense.
Quote from: "Tem"QuoteAt least I don't get 900C in closed loop and impending piston melt now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
If you have 750C after turbo, you just might s;) ;) s;) Remember that even the temps measured from the manifold pre turbo have already cooled a lot from what you actually have in the cylinders...
Eeek s:shock: :shock: s:shock: .... thanks Tem s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(BTW, the ceramic coating probably makes the differential between manifold and post-turbo less than it is on Spyni's car)
I'm in 11.5-12.5 territory under boost, but it'll be interesting to see how Hypersports approach the mapping and how it affects temps. Is there anything else I should consider?
I just wanted to let you know my respect to the Mr2 made me buy one s:) :) s:) . It also helps to improve the kit s:) :) s:)
Yay
Well,
I saw 900ºC when testing the car in Budapest and it's measured postturbo also, and no probs so far... s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
So that's 1100-1200ºC at the engine s:?: :?: s:?:
Quote from: "spynish"I saw 900ºC postturbo
Wow...did you still have the stock internals too?
QuoteSo that's 1100-1200ºC at the engine s:?: :?: s:?:
Could be...of course we're only guessing it s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "Tem"Wow...did you still have the stock internals too?
For now he does.. s;) ;) s;) s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
(only kidding Spynish!)
As we tested the stock 1zz for peak temperature 900 is ok. When it would get dangerous to hold it over that. Running at 850C is the best power but not suggested for street use.
Quote from: "c2gas"As we tested the stock 1zz for peak temperature 900 is ok. When it would get dangerous to hold it over that. Running at 850C is the best power but not suggested for street use.
Was this the spynish car anf post turbo temps?
Well we had not much time to test Spynies car, but a lot on the celi. It is cool to have the mr now as we can test many things in long terms.
We also seen extreme temps at the very begining but we only saw one melted engine but that was w.o water ( becouse of a leaking water hose) on a german costumers car. Also keep in mind extreme Autobahn speeds s;) ;) s;) . There is no better place to try out the limits.
10,000 mile shakedown........
I've gotta say that the C2 kit is awesome. Nothing has dropped off, broken, melted or exploded. The map - set up for stock injectors - has been solid as a rock and I've enjoyed trouncing everything for miles around whilst retaining a clean license and the "drives like a vicar" reputation s:wink: :wink: s:wink: .... and scaring me Dad.
Anyone looking for a DIY turbo kit, I'd say this is pretty darn close to the best there is for the price. The upgraded version looks even better. Sadly, Lee is selling his on and won;t be joining the C2 ranks, but someone will get a bargain from the sale.
Anyway, bored with such awesome and predictable Hungarian reliability, this weekend I decided to screw it all up by trying my hand at installing the bigger injectors. Doh! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
It started out OK. I prepared the clips with little extensions to give myself a fighting chance:
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2571/injectorclips2ko.jpg)
Lifted the rail and took out the old injectors....(top of the pic - and an interesting article about a fluffy dog on the newspaper if this is all too much for you!)
(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5882/injector1nm.jpg)
Installed new clips:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8370/newclips4bu.jpg)
Panic! The new 'jectors have a wider groove for the O-ring, so they didn;t feel like they were seating properly in the rail. Fear of squizzing petrol everywhere set in. So out they came and reinstalled with double o-rings. Thankfully that seems to have worked:
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8403/newinjectorsinposition4ab.jpg)
Now the fun begins. My works laptop won't allow me to install software, so I had to go with my own laptop to trim the injector ratio:
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7015/newlaptop2nm.jpg)
So here I am in the middle of the night trying to get the "laptop" to talk to the Emanage. It won't. I've lost the drivers. I lug everything back to the house, wire it up, go online, download the drivers, uninstall, back to the garage, wire it up, fire it up, no communication.
4 piggin times! Neighbours thought I had a garage sale on s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Maths was never my strong point, but Gas's original map was based on the Celica (380s) and so the ratio set for stock 'jectors was >1 (1.360). So, I figure, bring it back to 1 and everything will be ticky-boo. No, still too rich. I recalculate based on notional size and flow numbers that have been lobbed around (another trip to the house with the PC to get online!) and have now got a ratio that matches the stockers performance-wise on AFR at WOT.
What I don't have is a stoich idle (now AFR12) or any power in the mid-throttle range - it stays stoich whereas before it came into the rich power band so much more readily.
Any ideas? Help. Have I stuffed up a perfectly decent car?! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
PS on a brighter note, Mark has been brilliant throughout the weekend with his usual calming influence and moral support - cheers mucka!
Oh, & I've finally cut down the gauge pod and mounted it on the flippy lid. It won't win any concourse prizes, but then it only cost 8 quid! (I'm saving these ideas up for a new "Gaffer tape and Tap washer" forum s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4593/newgaugepod9wy.jpg)
At a more reasonable hour of the day I would have offered to bring my laptop round to save you lugging the 'puter about s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
You need to start fixing the car during the day rather than the middle of the night!
PMSL@ 'laptop' s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Ste, on my e-Manage map for larger injectors, the correction ratio is 0.650, so well below 1. From what I gather from your post, you're trying to set it up to run smaller injectors, hence the reason for it running lean. I'd try setting it to 0.8 to start with and seeing what that gives you, and then play from there.
I need to explain things a little better Dan......
Gas started on Alberto's car with a Celica map, and set the ratio above 1 cos of the stock injectors that Alberto & I were running. (So effectively it was already mapped for the bigger ones). So on the basis that I now have the Celica injectors, the map should be right if I bring the ratio back to 1.....but I'm still a tad rich.
I've also allowed for the extra flow that you seem to get with the 380s by bringing it down a bit further to simulate 410-420cc...... its still not behaving as I'd like it to.
...............................................................................
Things have moved on tonight: Gas has sent me the Philster's map. I've tried it tonight and blimey its quick s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
But I'm still tending on the rich side and every time I lift the throttle to idle the AFR settles on 11. s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Maybe this is unavoidable with a bigger injector but I'd like to tune it out if I can...... we're back to that dman closed loop thing again and maybe the car can't step down the injectors enough.
Gonna recal the w'band tomorrow, clean the n'band and borrow a laptop s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Chances of making it for Saturday are a little brighter, but you'll smell me coming! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
A stoich ~14.7 idle with the 380's and the Emanage is the norm and is to be expected.
Its all about the InjectorCorrectionFactor and the AIR map.
Also, the OEM ECU wont be "learning around" the emanage either because the MAF voltage it sees is controlled by the Emanage. I've left my fuel trims alone for about 6-months (no battery disconnect) and the off-boost AFR was always solid. Then it passed our smog, I disconnected the battery to clear the LT&ST trims and AFR is still 14.7ish at idle & cruise.
There always times when the AFR momentarilly swings really rich or lean during shifting /stopping but its for less than a 1 second.
The PC made me laugh, wish I was fitting the turbo seeing all the fun your having. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Sounds like you're making headway, good luck and keep up the good work!
Thanks Lee. After a very stressed weekend its all falling into place again.
Tonight, we used Gazz's sensibly-sized laptop (cheers mucka) and backed off the top-left corner of the air map. What was an AFR of 10 at idle is now sitting happily at Stoich. Hoorah.
The changes we had to make were quite drastic though (an additional -20% in places s:shock: :shock: s:shock: ), so I'll be sniffing Phil's exhaust with interest on Saturday. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm having to learn to drive again though - I'd become so used to the previous map - Phil's is much more grunty!
Ste
More grunt?! Stop it! Not listening la la la la s:P :P s:P
Yep, there's more! Never-ending this turbo kit lark.
Ladies and Gentlemen....I give you....the Magic Knob:
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2461/turbosmart9wc.jpg)
This little gizmo has transformed the car, even at stock boost levels. I have absolutely no idea why, but I must've been losing so much through the wastegate with the stock setup s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Perhaps someone can explain.
And here's the result from last week's D-Day. The Greddy peak gauge didn't reach 0.5 Bar during the run, so I guess we're looking at just shy of 7psi.
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/227/dynomap7tl.jpg)
I have no idea what dyno charts mean s:oops: :oops: s:oops: , but given that I was spewing fuel everywhere less than a fortnight ago and I'm running the Philster's rich rich map, I'm gobsmacked.
Next to come is an attempt to bring AFR up a bit under boost. Oh, and whilst my original comment that nothing had dropped off after 10,000 miles was indeed true, it seems the manic push to D-Day has encouraged the suicidal departure of a Turbo-DP Allen bolt. Never did like those things!
It'll be fixed in the morning.
Enjoy your Bank Holiday, people.
ps 1000th post - woohoo
sorry saw Ste's magic knob and the mind boggled s:? :? s:?
Quote from: "spit"This little gizmo has transformed the car, even at stock boost levels. I have absolutely no idea why, but I must've been losing so much through the wastegate with the stock setup s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Perhaps someone can explain.
Assuming you went from stock wastegate to controller...?
The stock gate is basically just a spring. Say you set it to keep the boost at 10 psi. What it does is that it will already start to open a little at say 3 psi, a bit more at 5 psi and so on. Not only will you lose power down there, but it'll also take longer to reach the set boost.
A good controller will keep it totally closed till it reaches the wanted pressure, so you'll get full boost as soon as the turbo can deliver it and it won't escape through the wastegate before you're at the set pressure.
(it does usually start opening just before reaching the set boost, so you won't overboost...or you can set some to allow a small overboost when spooling up on purpose)
Quote from: "Tem"Assuming you went from stock wastegate to controller...?
Yes I did. I was just so surprised at how much difference it made, but your explanation sounds bang on Tem.
Other things I've noticed since installing the valve are a much more stable peak boost level, and the sweetest turbo whoosh sound as it spools up - for some reason I didn't get that before s:? :? s:?
6 months in and its finally coming together s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "spit"6 months in and its finally coming together s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
ooohh heck please dont say that s:? :? s:? i'll have dont 6K by then
Quote from: "kanujunkie"i'll have dont 6K by then
In a Yaris hire car....
Just kidding Stu - it'll be fine s:) :) s:) You have the benefit of being able to learn from the other C2 owner's experiences s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "aaronjb"In a Yaris hire car....
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! s:scared: :scared: s:scared:
NOT A BLOODY YARIS!!!!
Quote from: "aaronjb"Just kidding Stu - it'll be fine s:) :) s:) You have the benefit of being able to learn from the other C2 owner's experiences s;) ;) s;)
what my new best friends, Ste and Phil s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"what my new best friends, Ste and Phil s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Yep just consider the wealth of combined technical experience at your disposal Stu!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Hurrumph!
Should be a walk in the park for a man of your skills.
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "kanujunkie"what my new best friends, Ste and Phil s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Yep just consider the wealth of combined technical experience at your disposal Stu!! s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Hurrumph!
Thanx Ste, i'll pick your brains as and when then s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spit"Should be a walk in the park for a man of your skills.
funny!, what the hell do i know about car engines s:roll: :roll: s:roll: give me a jet engine anyday, far simpler
Hurrumph!
Dman you and your evolutionary theories Mr. Darwin ..... just as Stu embarks on a shiny new install it looks like I'm off the road s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
The holiday was an entirely trouble-free thrill in boost paradise, but one week back and I've got a hole in the manifold s:shock: :shock: s:shock: Some tell-tale noises started yesterday.
Its hard to see what the damage is even with a carefully-placed lamp and mirror, but I'll try to get some pics up tonight when I go underneath and tout for advice. From my restricted vantage point it seems to be adjacent to a weld.
In any case it'll have to come off to review the options (fix or go cast manifold, which'll require complete doctoring of the entire exhaust system).
Hurrumph again!
ps and my clutch is slipping too s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
oh mate s:( :( s:( sorry to hear that
after all the fun you've had over the last few weeks what a downer s:( :( s:(
keep your chin up mate, she'll be back on the road again soon, personally i'd recomend the cast manifold, its absolutely solid, only question in my mind would be the position of the turbo, is it the same??? sure Gas can answer that though. If you need anything, just shout though, i'm at your beck'n'call
Cheers Stu. I've previously enquired about the manifold and it would be a sensible investment but it won't be a straight swap. Some cut and shunt required on the exhaust s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
But as a longer-term fix it allows the options to get the DP/flexi and exhaust better aligned (less stressed) and also the possibility of a (pricey) strap-in high-flow cat to give me a better chance come MOT time.
Thats probably something for the future 'cos of funding issues at the moment, so I'm hoping that the existing lump can be professionally fettled to get me through the Summer at least. Will know better once everything is dismantled.
Sorry to hear the bad news Ste. s:evil: :evil: s:evil:
You've got my number if you need anything.
Thanks for the support Gazz. I'll certainly shout if I think of anything!
Well, I can't get ramped up and sorted until I can get the old car running and swap 'em round in the garage, so I'm going to get extremely drunk and cry instead s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Managed to get a view from above with a small mirror that confirms the worst fears though.....
(http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/7381/hole8bu.jpg)
The damage starts at the edge of a vertical supporting fin where it joins to the underside of cylinder 4's pipe. I can't see too clearly at the moment, but the damage looks quite extensive in the form of a crack beyond the very visible hole.
Oh poo!
Sorry to hear the bad news Ste. Thinking aloud, if you wanted to change to a cast manifold would it also effect the turbo bracket position?
Cheers Lee
Quote from: "LeeUK"if you wanted to change to a cast manifold would it also effect the turbo bracket position?
Rats - I hadn't thought of that. Yes it would s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Stu and I have concocted a cunning plan so we can get an idea of how the turbut position differs between my 'fold and the Cast one. Cast outlet is off-centre (mine is dead-centre), so I should be able to fabricate a support off the existing brace. Height and clearance might be an issue though. We'll see.
That said, finance dictates that I need to get the existing 'fold fixed if at all possible. So can I ask those who know about metal fatigue, fractures, welding (brazing?) etc. to get poised for some photos to pass judgement on, as I aint gotta clue s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Also, anyone who knows of a good firm who can assess the damage, advise on repair and cast an eye over the rest of the 'fold, please chip in.
*feeling a little lost*
Sorry to hear about your problems.
Makes me glad I went down the TTET route, as I don't know one end of a spanner from the other.
Hope you get it sorted quickly and it's not too costly.
Hi mate,
It's a PITA that cracked manifold s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Here are my thoughts: If you need the car to be repaired as soon as possible, just weld it (it will hold for some time...). If you can wait a bit more (and this is the best option) you should change manifold. Then you have 2 options another tubular one (like now), which should be obviously stronger, or the new cast one.
Problem changing to a cast one is that you will have much more problems to fit everything again (I know it well s:? :? s:? ). Said this, and not doubting in the cast manifold quality, have to say that cast manifolds crack also. And though most people prefer these ones others think a well made tubular one is better.
So, what you need it's time and patient. Sure Gaspar takes care. Try to talk to him, he will give you some advice.
Don't know if all this makes you see things clearer...(I really doubt it... s:lol: :lol: s:lol: )
Know where I am.
Alberto
I love you all my wonderful supportive friends. Thanx.
Not quite as quick as Gas, but the surgical skills came into good use tonight - I managed to extract the manifold from the turbo without disconnecting any pipework. No sign of torsional stress between the manifold and the turbo at rest.
And here we are.
Top - looks OK...
(http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2226/manifoldok6hl.jpg)
Facing the rear of the car) - Hmmmm something has shifted the ceramic coating....
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8679/manifoldfrontcrack3lg.jpg)
RHS engine block side - starting to go...
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7508/manifoldrightcrack6my.jpg)
LHS engine block side - cabbaged...
(http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1340/manifoldleftcrack5pa.jpg)
I'd value your opinions on the options. Fixable(?), replace?, new tubular?, commission a casting?, use Gas's cast and doctor the exhaust?
One thing is for definate - Kirk's engine mounts will be ordered!
Any advice much appreciated people.
Use Gas's casting as this is a solution rather than a remedy - the basic problem is that tubular manifold is not strong enough to support the turbo on its own so even fitting harder engine mounts etc will still eventually result in a knackered tubular manifold as the stress is unlikely to be solely due to engine movement.
It should be fixable - although any fix will probably be temporary (it's just a case of how long s;) ;) s;) )..
Get it stop-drilled (to stop the cracking) and then welded, that hole looks small enough to fill with weld or patch over, too, I reckon.
Fitting Kirk's mounts will prolong the life of the fix, too.
agreed looks fixable short term, but how long it will last is anyones guess
Les has raised a good point via PM. It seems that all of the crack origins are where the vertical supporting fins/bars have eroded the tubular. He suggests blasting and cutting into the fins to insert fillets to mend the cracks and offer extra support.
Russ, Gas's casting seems to be the way to go eventually, but I simply don't have the funds right now - if it was a simple straight swap it'd be a no-brainer though. Sadly it isn't. (And just a point to note: the turbo is braced from underneath so my thinking this is due to persistent engine vibration knawing away at the structure rather than a permanent weight/stress thing....but what do I know s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:oops: :oops: s:oops: )
I'm going to tout around a couple of engineering shops today and see what they have to say. At this stage the more options the better, so keep 'em coming. Thanx s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
PS I've emailed Gas but Alb & I have noticed he hasn't been online for quite a while. If any of you happen to catch him before me, please give him the heads-up
Quote from: "spit"Les has raised a good point via PM. It seems that all of the crack origins are where the vertical supporting fins/bars have eroded the tubular. He suggests blasting and cutting into the fins to insert fillets to mend the cracks and offer extra support.
It'll crack again. The reason it's cracked is because of the high stress concentration factor ocurring where the gusset meets the relatively thin walled tubing. Local hardening caused by welding adds the the increased likleyhood of cracking.
As a possible solution - cut off the bottom of the gusset and weld a thicker plate probably about 5mm thick (would have to be formed to the tube radius) underneath so that the gusset sits on the thicker plate. Make this probably about 30mm longer than the end of the gusset. This would help distribute the stress more evenly and hopefully avoid further cracking.
It's a ballache of a job to do though!
Rolling again s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Thirty quid later, we're back on the road and boosting! It won't win any concourse prizes but it seems to have worked.
I've had the cracks filled and built up for now while I ponder longer-term options. Also had a couple of supports welded between the turbo and manifold flanges - an inspired suggestion from Stu - should take some strain off the pipework.
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8610/backon4oc.jpg)
Also today I've gone from two of these:
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7549/mount19qx.jpg)
to two of these:
(http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/8822/mount29bm.jpg)
so I've now got a slick gear change and built-in seat massage s8) 8) s8)
There's more s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Those of you who've been following the story will know what this is:
(http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/7739/plate19dv.jpg)
A bespoke sandwich plate made by Gas (free of charge - thanks mate) to replace the oil T-piece which was never quite right.
This is now history......:
(http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/3819/car183bd.jpg)
......and this has replaced it:
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/9687/plate25kg.jpg)
No more dribbles s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
So I'm quietly chuffed today. Its not all good news though - just been out for a bimble and its pretty clear the clutch is on its way out.....but then the stocker is old enough for a bus pass and its having to deal with monstrous torque s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Don't know which one to get. Ideally I'd like to keep a light pedal and get something thats easy to use in traffic. Know nothing about these things s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Ste,
good to see your back on teh road :-) :-) :-)
the RPS clutch is actually lighter than stock
Good to see that the joy has returned! s8) 8) s8)
Have you turned down the boost now? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Ste, glad you got the manifold fixed and that oil takeoff is much neater. Although after seeing your dyno results when we were down at WRC, I can't offer you any sympathy for the clutch s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
welcome back to the fold Ste s:D :D s:D
if you fancy a drive of mine to try out the RPS on a C2 then i'm at Marks tomorrow or we can arrange a meetup sometime
fingers crossed for the manifold
Cheers guys.
Quote from: "Two's Company"Have you turned down the boost now? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Dman, I knew I'd forgotten something s:wink: :wink: s:wink: The car reminded me tonight - I blew the BOV hose clean off s:roll: :roll: s:roll: No drama - just tootled home normally-aspirated at stoich like an asthmatic pigeon - it wasn't half dull though!
And the Kirks are playing hell with my fillings .... but the grin is still intact s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I'd like to try the RPS Stu. Gazz may well have a Helix by the end of the week, so it'd be good to compare. I'll give you a shout when I'm southbound.
wow this sandwish plate fit well s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
How much does it cost from C2?
Hi Ste,
Some spyderchat guys recommend this ACT clutch (I have to wait a bit to give an opinion about RPS one...):
http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/prod/TC2-XTSS
Here is the post: http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=31646&start=0
Waiting to hear about that Kirk mounts feelings...
Glad to hear you're back in the land of boost Ste, best place in the world! s:D :D s:D
I too can recommend the ACT clutch.
I have a spare ACT clutch still for sale for those with new boostness s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "TommyD"I have a spare ACT clutch still for sale for those with new boostness s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
how comes you've got a spare of everything Tommy?
fraid if that was aimed at me then i've already got the RPS clutch and flywheel fitted, sorry, cheers for the thought though s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:oops: :oops: s:oops: I was too quick to order sometimes. I ordered it with the Hass but wanted a lighter clutch pedal so opted for the RPS as I managed to get one cheap.
Quote from: "dabeny"wow this sandwish plate fit well s:shock: :shock: s:shock: How much does it cost from C2?
Not a stocked item dab, sorry. This was a bespoke freebie to solve my persistent T-piece dribble. I was going to buy a Greddy plate and he said "don't bother I'll make you one" - what a guy!
As for clutches, sounds like the ACT has a good following. Exactly how heavy is it Sean? I'm not as sturdily built as you s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
The ACT is a little lighter than stock IMO - just the bite point is the major change, it's a lot closer to the floor.
Quote from: "spit"I'm not as sturdily built as you s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
its that Pocholo haircut, its sapped your strength mate s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "dabeny"wow this sandwish plate fit well s:shock: :shock: s:shock: How much does it cost from C2?
Not a stocked item dab, sorry. This was a bespoke freebie to solve my persistent T-piece dribble. I was going to buy a Greddy plate and he said "don't bother I'll make you one" - what a guy!
As for clutches, sounds like the ACT has a good following. Exactly how heavy is it Sean? I'm not as sturdily built as you s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Wow !!! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
I asked cause this one seems perfect, i know why now... s:D :D s:D
Gratz
12 months to the day since I started this thread, so its perhaps time for some feedback on living with the C2 from day-to-day. Hopefully anyone considering this route will find the comments useful.
Installation: a real challenge at times but easily within reach of a persistent DIY-er. With hindsight (& budget permitting s:cry: :cry: s:cry: ), I'd have added the following bits of kit straight away to save on headaches down the line:
EManage-ECU harness
Sandwich plate
Triangulated turbo brace
Uprated clutch (although the stocker was still reasonably OK at 75k miles!)
MAP and IGN harness (possibly, but that would require pro mapping too)
Perfectly do-able without any of this of course.
Setup: The kit runs gauge-free out of the box, but the WB AFR has been a godsend for fine tuning of the map and peace of mind. Boost gauge and EGT have been very handy too s:) :) s:)
Running: 22,000 miles since install probably gives you an idea about the reliability of the kit. I've had a couple of weeks off the road and one or two roadside tweaks, but I've yet to find myself stranded
(touch wood) and carrying a few select tools around is second nature now s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Garaged at the moment to sort out the coolant dribble, but things will be back to normal after an hour or two of graft.
One thing this kit does is focus your mind on symptoms, noises and "feel" when you're driving. Personally I think it improves the whole driving experience - particularly when your own DIY "skills" are being put to the test. Anyone who has modded will know that there's something very satisfying about running a car thats had your personal input. If you don't think you'd enjoy that but want to go boostie, then TTET (or maybe SC?) is probably a better option.
Pootling in traffic is hardly different from stock: this is certainly a mod that you can live with on a daily commute.
Performance: At stock boost its fast. At 7psi its
seriously competetive. At 12psi its astounding (especially to the guys driving hyper-expensive factory sports clones s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ). Spool-up is quick, but quicker with a BC, although you need to be better at gearchanges than I am to keep it singing through the gears. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
This is where you need a back-up fund: running a turbo on a stock car quickly shows up its chassis and handling limits - especially if its as old and tired as mine s:oops: :oops: s:oops: . You'll find yourself looking for better tyres, more bracing etc to get the most out of it. I'm still not quite there.
Should I get one?: Think about this. If you're looking to trade your stock '2 for something even
better, how much would that cost you? Adding boost and a few bits of bracing will give you a totally different car that probably out-performs anything else within easy reach at a fraction of the cost. Its not an investment modification though .... but it is a very cost-effective indulgence. I say "Go for it!"
nice write-up mate
at 12psi i'm willing to bet it'll take on most cars on the road today, its an experience thats for sure, just a shame my clutch didn't hold s:? :? s:?
A quick update to shove in the recent dyno day chart and ask a question.
(http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/6451/spitdynowp1.jpg)
Happy with this considering the age, mileage, state of the manifold and gung-ho mapping - all thanks to the AFR gauge which has easily paid for itself and the patience of Gazz and Rob with their laptops s8) 8) s8) .
Still a bit of a tweaking opportunity in the 4.5-5.5k range
*Gazz and Rob go mysteriously offline s:wink: :wink: s:wink: *
Peak torque is down against Phil's C2 - the nearest dyno'd equivalent I suppose. The question is, should I add MAP and IGN and invest in a pro-mapping session, or is this about as much as we can expect from a tired old engine?
Quote from: "spit"A quick update to shove in the recent dyno day chart and ask a question.
Happy with this considering the age, mileage, state of the manifold and gung-ho mapping - all thanks to the AFR gauge which has easily paid for itself and the patience of Gazz and Rob with their laptops s8) 8) s8) .
Still a bit of a tweaking opportunity in the 4.5-5.5k range
*Gazz and Rob go mysteriously offline s:wink: :wink: s:wink: *
Peak torque is down against Phil's C2 - the nearest dyno'd equivalent I suppose. The question is, should I add MAP and IGN and invest in a pro-mapping session, or is this about as much as we can expect from a tired old engine?
Who's off line, just in a different time zone s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Ste,
If it was me yes
if nothing else it will give you piece of mind that you know what your doing
Map has to be the optimal setup from a point of view of accuracy i would say. I'm no expert obviously but coming from an IT and Engineering world precision is the key to best performance. Mind you overblown precision has it's drawbacks too!
For me, when i go Turbo, be it C2 or Thor i'll be going the map route.
Plus, you have a tired engine, but why stress it badly and make it worse? When you get a new engine, everything will be ready to go and you will see the difference. s:D :D s:D
Quote from: "markiii"if nothing else it will give you piece of mind that you know what your doing
Where's the fun in that? s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Point taken.
The "numptie on a budget" approach has pretty much run its course now, so maybe its time to call in the troops for a final flutter before I retire the car and go back into driving Miss Daisy mode s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
OOOPS! s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
This is what happens when a road turns into a river. s:? :? s:?
(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/3311/knackeredjc3.jpg)
The IC scoop turned into a water brake and balooned backwards, twisting all 4 IC mounts and ripping the bottom air channel open.
The good news - if there is any - is that the turbo and hub pipework seems to have survived the blast, and the engine bay has had a good wash(!) so its just the IC that needs attention.
I can't remember who predicted that this would happen when we discussed scoops last year, but you were right! The side mounting points are not too bad (apart from being very bent) Its the solitary tack weld in the middle that has caused all the damage.
Maybe I should have a chat with Gas and get a modified IC designed, or one without a scoop attached and then add on a separately-mounted affair ..... but for now I'll go for a quick fettle to get the channel sealed up and back on the road again.
Or could this be an ideal gap in the pipework to take a chargecooler? s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Happy New piggin Year everyone s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
It's nothing an old bit of chewing gum won't fix. I guess you need to fit the next scoop with shear bolts of the like with a lower tensile strength than the ally intercooler. As I said on MSN, I think Mercedes will start fitting these on the next S Class - hydroplane saftety brake s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
Oooh! Thats the first bottom scoop I've seen damaged like that.
Not unpredicted for sure.
These are the option as I seen them.
1. Tear away scoop & bolts - By design not a permanent solution
2. W/A chargecooler - Adds complexity,cost and weight. Need more space.
3. Chemical intercooling - Complexity and cost as well but would obviate the need for any other form of charge cooling. If alky is used in more than ~30% ratio then the tune may need a tweak to avoid being too rich and/or losing power.
Thanks guys. I'm sure its something that can be fixed with a bit of thought.
Just to add that this shouldn't put anyone off the C2. It was total driver error s:oops: :oops: s:oops: and the kit held up really well considering the speed that I hit the water s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Bizarre that all the talk we had a while ago was about speed humps and hitting debris/rabbits etc. None of us thought about how much worse it would be to hit water at speed! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: Happy to guinea-pig it for you s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "spit"Happy to guinea-pig it for you s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
What would we do without you Ste s;) ;) s;)
Sorry to hear about the accident though - hopefully it won't be too expensive to repair, just a little bending & perhaps welding on the IC..
Glad you're ok Ste, even if we've made a bit of fun out of it at your expense s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Wow, water's pretty hard when you hit it at speed you were lucky not to fly off the road.
So now to a bit of handy invention, i wonder if raising the I/C out of harms way with a hinged or tear-away scoop is best? Then remember talking about the "boost controlled relative positioning scoop", just add a panic button! There's got to be a solution out there.
I wonder how the TTE I/C would have stood up?
yeah good luck with fixing it ste, hopefully wont be too expensive/time consuming to fix.
would something like this help cool your engine
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q47/rtbiscuit/tomsw123.jpg)
Very nice Rich, but I'd still be out there now picking up the pieces s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
More an ill-timed hassle than anything else Alex. If you believe in fate, the IC needs to be moved up in preparation for Teins to improve the handling, so this now forces me to do get round to doing it s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla""boost controlled relative positioning scoop"
Ooo I'd forgotten about that Heath Robinson plan - Pat Pending! Might give it a go for a laugh.
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I wonder how the TTE I/C would have stood up?
I was thinking about this - its shielded behind the front half of the nappy and not "scooped" so it probably would be OK if its tough enough to withstand the water pressure. But given the violence with which the fuel tank plastics were ripped away I doubt the nappy and aluminium grating would've survived. I mean, Gazz's plastics drop off if you just look at them funny s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
sorry to hear of your accident ste glad your ok, did'nt top gear do a similar article last year on converting a car in to a boat s:?: :?: s:?: i think they sank as well s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
take no notice of me i'll probably get mine and the joke will be on me s:( :( s:(
i'm sure if any one can sort your ic out you can good luck
bummer matey s:( :( s:(
I would honestly say it may be time to look at chargecoolers, a lot smaller and apart from rad damage unlikely to suffer any accidents like that.
sorry again bud s:( :( s:(
Just a suggestion - but I'd be careful with anything designed to fall off or tear away under impact. There is the potential for it to drop down and bounce - probably into the rear bodywork, or possibly straight back up into the engine bay depending on how it is designed to come away and the type of force that ultimately removes it. Maybe look at some way of allowing excessive pressure to 'vent' at the sides or rear of the scoop. Granted, there will be a loss of cooling efficiency, but that's got to be better than additional damage at the rear of the car.
Just my 0.02 - I'll get me coat now as I'm not even entertaining the thought of running a boosted car.
Ste, the scoop on mine is only tack welded onto the IC in about 10 places, surely it would be better to cut it off and either bash it back into shape or fab a new one up.
Hi Ste
Glad you'er OK, just thinking about your problem, how about working around one of these instead of plastic. Might be an alternative.
m http://www.kamispeed.com/product_info.p ... 15a508e5dd (http://www.kamispeed.com/product_info.php?cPath=1131_1162_1300_2041&products_id=1011&SesId=4cd9513fc460b8f4e180f915a508e5dd) m
Rob
Good to have choices s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
On the one hand, it has to be said that the original design is probably OK: this really was a freak occurrence - I've caught bumps and hit things all year without any issues, but haven't been subject to the sustained impact of a Tsunami before s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I'm thinking that if the scoop wasn't tack welded at the midpoint to the underside of the IC then the IC would just have got bent out of position rather than ripped open at the weld.
Maybe a separate sub-frame assembly for the scoop to mount it around the IC is a good idea - something that will allow it to bend away (but not detaching completely) without affecting the IC or its mounting points at all? A flat-mounted diffuser arrangement could be the answer if I can get enough air channelled in through it.
I'll get a better look when the assembly is removed tonight.
Just an afterthought .... what about a modified rear nappy? I'm sure we have plenty of those kicking around & up for grabs.
I think Mark tried the modified nappy approach - I can't remember if it survived or not (my money is on 'not', though, as it's pretty flimsy to be channeling that much air).
I think if I were doing it I'd look to make a scoop that had a 'vent' at the back, so that it wasn't totally closed in.. You don't really need to be forcing all that air through the IC at full speed, after all.
IIRC on the Nissan someone worked out (after dyno & tunnel testing) the exit vent for the IC only needed to be 1/3rd the size of the IC, that way you trapped some air and slowed the airflow down which actually improved cooling (pretty sure that it was Silvia Engineering who did the testing).
Yep, the nappy would need some sort of tubular subframe to hold it steady.
Is there an argument for getting some of the fast-moving air round to the back of the IC to create an area of lower pressure? Or is the venturi effect not applicable here?
Scoop with a circa 1.5" gap between it and the bottom of the IC would prevent the rip-up from happening again though, but I don't know enough about these things to know whether its an efficient design for cooling s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Just a thought, but has anyone measured intake temps without any scoop at all? I know the scoop will make a difference, but exactly how much I'd love to see: If it was only a couple of degrees warmer, might it be worth thinking going without completely? And just using Mark's nappy approach (which is still holding up s;) ;) s;) ) to cover it up?
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: wow all i can say is wow s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
glad to hear youre ok!
just makes you think sometimes andy d and yourself?! got to be careful in our Spyders!!
What a fascinating saga, Ste. I'm sure it will come out well eventually, to justify your careful and thoughtful step by step approach. Looking forward to hearing how the little ship (sorry, wasn't referring to the water event!!) goes when you first try her out with the mods complete. S'man.
A plan is being hatched. Nic and Gazz popped over, the intercooler came off in 15 minutes, after which we talked complete twaddle for a few hours over coffee. Cheers for the support guys - made it so much easier!
Time is tight this week but I'm hoping to get fixed up by the weekend. Not sure that the bottom channel can be saved, but I'll work on it a bit before giving up and blocking it off!
The scoop has had it, but there is enough still securely attached to use as fixing points for new rear brackets. The front brackets are still sufficiently attached to be useable.
I'm going to try running scoopless for a while. It may reduce the cooling efficiency, but it'll be an interesting test to see if the scoop was contributing to any of those handling problems that appeared when I got boosted. A little reduction in power might turn out to be a fair trade for reduced drag and better handling. We'll see. If a scoop has to go back on, I'll work on something with a separate subframe.
In the great scheme of things this could have been so much worse for me and the car. A different set of circumstances to Andy's accident, but it shows just how tough these little cars can be. Can't wait to get going again.
Ok here goes, like i said Ste, this could've happened to ANYBODY.
First look;
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5803/icdamage017buj7.jpg)
On closer inspection you can see how the IC scoop bowed out (but didn't catch the plastics - result in my book)
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7200/icdamage011bkj5.jpg)
Then Ste did his mechanic genious impression but turned out shy
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5421/icdamage013bdf7.jpg)
So here it is on the kitchen counter in all it's glory
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1259/icdamage014bfg0.jpg)
That bottom channel might be salvageable if you're careful, but it's a poor place to choose to weld the scoop to
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3241/icdamage015bqj1.jpg)
I reckon with the IC positioned between the exhausts without a scoop you'll not notice much power loss as it catches loads of air with no nappy being there. We'l see eh s8) 8) s8)
Oh, and yes - i'm just having my brekkies s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Fixed and flying again s:lol: :lol: s:lol: The IC had three holes ripped into it - one on the front scoop tack weld, one on the rear, and one deep inside the cooling mesh s:shock: :shock: s:shock: .
In the spirit of DIY, all three have been sealed using some flexi-gloop and a vacuum cleaner! How long for is anybody's guess, but if it lasts I'm going to patent the suction-fix methodology s:wink: :wink: s:wink: .
Some temporary rear brackets have been fabricated from old bits of kitchen until I can work out a better setup.
Total spend: £7.48. Oh, the shame!
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"I reckon with the IC positioned between the exhausts without a scoop you'll not notice much power loss as it catches loads of air with no nappy being there. We'l see eh s8) 8) s8)
This is totally subjective Nic, but the car is absolutely frazzling along now, and some of the high speed stability gremlins have gone (not entirely, but things feel much better). Be interesting to see how this pans out.
Glad you've got it fixed, even if just for now, Ste.
I like the way you've given the scoop a unique part number. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Yay - great news Ste. s:D :D s:D
Repaired in true Bodgit & Scarper stylee s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Time's the test now
Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Repaired in true Bodgit & Scarper stylee s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Went waaaay over-budget this time s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Give it a week I'll be pickin the bits up off the M60!
Thanks again for your help and ear-bending matey.
And not a length of gaffer tape in sight s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I'm disapointed, you went over the £5 limit s:roll: :roll: s:roll: That's a 50% overspend, no wonder the NHS is in the mess it is s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Congrats on getting her going again, must be nice to get the boost back.
i'm disappointed, s:( :( s:(
as a fellow bodger and part time farmer, i havent seen you use any of the following items:
bluetack
gaffa tape
baler twine
chewing gum
a shoe lace
or a boiled egg.
call yourself a bodger s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(i fixed my exhaust rattle with rolled up bits of plastic, gaffa tape, and bits of an old dust sheet- total cost £0.) s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
well done for getting it up and running, hope she holds out.
hopefully you wont be having a startrek moment with some big fat scottish bloke telling you "she canay take any more"
is this another fine bit of ghetto engineering, we awt to start an annual of the finer parts of bodging that have gone on on our 2's, for me nothing finer than my boost controller thats held in with part of Marks washing machine and not forgetting the Samco hose pipe joiner that was replaced by a cut open can of WD40
Quote from: "kanujunkie"nothing finer than my boost controller thats held in with part of Marks washing machine and not forgetting the Samco hose pipe joiner that was replaced by a cut open can of WD40
Classics! But the burning question - how is Mark washing his smalls now? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "kanujunkie"nothing finer than my boost controller thats held in with part of Marks washing machine and not forgetting the Samco hose pipe joiner that was replaced by a cut open can of WD40
Classics! But the burning question - how is Mark washing his smalls now? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
your forgetting, he's married now s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Hi Ste,
Back from holidays and have just read your little accident... s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Happy have solved it so fast, but let me know something not clear for me yet... s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Now without scoop, right?
Will this trauma hinder the purchase of the new headlights? s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spynish"Now without scoop, right?
Yes. I'll let you know about the +ves and -ves after a week or two of driving.
Pics to follow when me and a camera are in close proximity s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(and the lights - ho-hum. MOT due soon so I might be borrowing someone else's lights for the day .... s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
Nice one!
That is BY FAR the dirtiest I/C I've ever seen.
Just cleaning it probably raised its efficiency by 30% s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "wts"That is BY FAR the dirtiest I/C I've ever seen.
Even after a vigourous wash s:oops: :oops: s:oops: You gotta love the British winter s:? :? s:?
One benefit of being scoopless now is that it'll much easier to keep polished s8) 8) s8)
Very happy but completely stumped. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
The car has been ballistic since removing the scoop. This is more than just a tiny hike in performance. The turbo is spooling up faster and holding more steady for longer.
The IC is clean, but no more than many times before!
I had to seal off part of the damaged IC channel, and the force of the hit has banana'ed the whole assembly, so airflow will be a tad restricted through other channels too and efficiency wll be down. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
But now it feels like the IC and turbo are more 'in tune' with each other. Would a bit of extra resistance against the compressor make this difference, or is it all down to being scoopless?
Anyone have a possible explanation? Any long-term drawbacks, cos I'm loving this?!!
Quote from: "spit"Very happy but completely stumped. s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
The car has been ballistic since removing the scoop. This is more than just a tiny hike in performance. The turbo is spooling up faster and holding more steady for longer.
The IC is clean, but no more than many times before!
I had to seal off part of the damaged IC channel, and the force of the hit has banana'ed the whole assembly, so airflow will be a tad restricted through other channels too and efficiency wll be down. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
But now it feels like the IC and turbo are more 'in tune' with each other. Would a bit of extra resistance against the compressor make this difference, or is it all down to being scoopless?
Anyone have a possible explanation? Any long-term drawbacks, cos I'm loving this?!!
I would have thought the easy answer is less volume to compress therefore the quicker it responds.
Rob s:idea: :idea: s:idea:
any idea how intake temps compare?
Sadly not. J-Spec and diagnostic options don't go well together s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
The output stuff is all as before - AFR, EGT, Max Boost.
Quote from: "spit"Anyone have a possible explanation? Any long-term drawbacks, cos I'm loving this?!!
Ste, you dont think that this has restored the natural airflow do you?
we know that naturally the airflow is in at the top and down through the engine bay but when the C2 kit is fitted it scoops the air in from under which makes me think that the 2 airflows are ramming into each other and creating a high pressure zone in the engine bay thus stopping any further flow. When you took it off i'm therefore surmising that you restored the natural airflow in through the top and down through the engine bay exiting at the bottom after passing through the IC.
i'd also like to surmise that if you were to reverse the scoop so that it was to face backwards that this would increase the cooling via the venturi effect, just a thought
want to prove my theory Ste, involves some food dye, water, a few meters of fish tank tubing and a bit of wood s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
As the ROC knows only too well I haven't a scooby when it comes to approaching techy stuff s:oops: :oops: s:oops: but this is worth investigating - its a BIG change.
One other possibility to throw in I suppose is reduced drag without the scoop hanging down?
Anyway, its a good idea to get hold of some diagnostic kit that'll give some air temp readings etc and I'm happy to guineapig the car in a few different scenarios to get some data if you can tell me what's needed.
Quote from: "kanujunkie"some food dye, water, a few meters of fish tank tubing and a bit of wood s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:? :? s:? Not sure what you have planned for me and the car with this lot Stu, but if you think it'll help...... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "spynish"Now without scoop, right?
Yes. I'll let you know about the +ves and -ves after a week or two of driving.
Pics to follow when me and a camera are in close proximity s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(and the lights - ho-hum. MOT due soon so I might be borrowing someone else's lights for the day .... s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )
ste im off to Oz in 10 days time, if u want my lights for a month let me know?
its easy Ste, we make manometers, we need to agree a preset size made following a test run and the sense end of the pipe needs to go in exactly the same place on each car and faceing in the same direction, now if i'm right then my 2 should have a higher pressure zone in the engine bay than yours
Very clever, love it Stu! Lets give it a go s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
(PM'd enid, thanx)
so how will putting ste's car in a fish tank help?
drown it now and save the problems!
only joking.
when i was at cov uni we had a hugh flow channel to test in was great fun, one of my favourite jobbies. s:D :D s:D s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
this place is going mad tonight, anyway back to conveyor belts
shit wrong thread s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
speak soon on the manometer Ste, need to experiment on pipe lengths first!
My car get buffeted all over the place at high speeds I have started to wonder if I need to counteract or adjust the scoop.
Quote from: "kanujunkie"its easy Ste, we make manometers, we need to agree a preset size made following a test run and the sense end of the pipe needs to go in exactly the same place on each car and faceing in the same direction, now if i'm right then my 2 should have a higher pressure zone in the engine bay than yours
Would it not be easier to borrow a mechanical altimeter from stores? It would certainly be more sensitive and I suspect the movement on a manometer is going to be fairly small in relation to the movement caused by the poorly maintained roads that we have to endure in the UK.
Will be interested to hear the results either way as I am looking to do something different with mine (if I ever get around to fixing it s:( :( s:( )
and i can see the CAA loving that one s:? :? s:?
plus we dont have many mechanical ones on our fleet anymore
Quote from: "kanujunkie"and i can see the CAA loving that one s:? :? s:?
plus we dont have many mechanical ones on our fleet anymore
I was thinking more along the lines of one that had gone U.S. but still worked enough to give a reading of sorts.
at around 80K a guage, i think not, even if it were broke s:? :? s:?
If drag increases as a square of speed then removing the scoop may have helped a lot. IDK.
Perhaps you've fixed a longterm boost leak you never knew existed.
Quote from: "spit"(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7015/newlaptop2nm.jpg)
Just had to bump this thread Ste s;) ;) s;)
Seems you're not the only one who has an unusual idea of 'laptop':
m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2nlxrN9Zk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2nlxrN9Zk) m
Quote from: "aaronjb"Quote from: "spit"(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7015/newlaptop2nm.jpg)
Just had to bump this thread Ste s;) ;) s;)
Seems you're not the only one who has an unusual idea of 'laptop':
m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2nlxrN9Zk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si2nlxrN9Zk) m
WTF! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Its time to pass on some thoughts.....
The '2 has now delivered 115,000 miles of fun, which means the engine has been chugging out extra torque for around 50,000 miles courtesy of Gaspar's C2 kit.
In keeping with my love of paranoia, 49,000 of those miles have been loaded up with tools/nuts/bolts/hoses and other paraphernalia. But the truth is, I've rarely needed them.
The kit has never left me stranded. Its occasionally taken a few moments of roadside fettling with bits of gaffer tape (stolen from a Mk1's rusty wheel arch!), pen tubes and cable ties to fix problems away from home, but thats about it.
It hasn't all been plain sailing though. If you've waded through this thread you'll see that the weakness of the stainless manifold hit fairly early on, and more recently I've had the downpipe-into-silencer weld beefed up (it was an inch away from separation!).
But aside from that and a replacement of the water lines for better-quality hose, I think thats about it. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Oh, and the maritime incident which ripped up the intercooler - but this wasn't the C2's fault and I still got to the party and home in time for breakfast.
Mapping has been a bit of an issue, but the owner couldn't be ar*ed to get it mapped properly s:oops: :oops: s:oops: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
And here we are, MOT passed again s8) 8) s8) Does this mean another year of boostie fun? Sadly, I doubt it. The engine is using some oil and its likely that a donor 1-zz will need to be found soon. As for the gearbox, who knows.
Would I still recommend the indulgence of boost though? Absolutely. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "spit"In keeping with my love of paranoia, 49,000 of those miles have been loaded up with tools/nuts/bolts/hoses and other paraphernalia. But the truth is, I've rarely needed them.
funny, mines on 40k now as well and i carry the same gear, the only real tools i've needed though have been a 7mm ratchet for the turbo outlet pipe that popped off on saturday and a 10mm spanner for the manifold/turbo flange bolts, everything else has been brilliant as well. Really not sure why i carry it all either with the C2 kit
glad to hear yours is running so well still Ste s:D :D s:D
Ste before it dies/you replace it... i still need to get a run in it s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Thats a great innings Ste. To be honest, it was a tad smokey last time I followed you (on hard acceleration) but it didn't look catastrophic s:) :) s:) - just like it was having a little cough. (and it was a blacky / blue mix, not a rich blue oil slick).
A 2zz would be fun....
Yep, its more of a chuffing under boost or after a period of engine braking. Light driving and all is well, so there aren't any grounds for complaint when you consider what the engine has been through.
2zz isn't really worth it for a pootling chump like me, but its a thought. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
And I feel less daft knowing that Stu carries the paranoia kit around aswell. s:P :P s:P It has been useful to have, but mostly on other folk's 2s and washing machines!
Celine: any time hun s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
you sure the engines not just breathing the excess oil? i've noticed a fair bit in the breather filter recently?, didn't notice it at first as it was dripping down the back of the block
Quote from: "Spit"Celine: any time hun s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Next time we meet s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"you sure the engines not just breathing the excess oil? i've noticed a fair bit in the breather filter recently?, didn't notice it at first as it was dripping down the back of the block
I didn't think of that Stu. There's certainly always been a bit of ooze there. The back end is in bits at the moment, so I'll have a good firtle around. It might explain some of the losses.
Had a blast of a time in and around the Cat and Fiddle today...... David, Chris and I joined the OC for a blat and then went off to do our own thing.
A few pics tell it best......
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6743/1003872bn5.jpg)
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5348/threev2pd7.jpg)
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9678/1003875hk1.jpg)
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3346/1003873rd8.jpg)
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2324/1003876ff0.jpg)
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/3668/1003877dg3.jpg)
So there we go .... s:lol: :lol: s:lol: After 50,000 miles of sheer fun waiting for this day to come, its finally time to put the beastie to bed.
As for what has happened, at the moment I have no clue. All fluids are present and correct but something has come adrift in the block.
It was nothing spectacular - a really quiet affair: the lightest of high-pitched rattles, a bit like a heatshield vibration but nowhere near as loud. Something at the back of my head told me to pull over. The engine clearly wasn't happy and wasn't going to get me home so I decided to call it a day before it degenerated further.
Even so, its been a fabulous day - a mix of pootling and power, great banter and fabulous roads. What a way to bow out. No fuss, no drama. "That'll do, Pig s:wink: :wink: s:wink: "
And I gotta get me one of those big flatbeds s:P :P s:P They're so comfy!
Huge thanks to Chris and David. Although it looks for all the world like they were standing around laughing their t!ts off they were absolute stars. Chris ferried coffee while we waited in the gloom for the truck and David dropped in at my place to help navigate into the garage. Cheers guys.
Stock 1zz RIP...... for the moment s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Sorry to see that, Ste s:( :( s:(
At least it went pop on the way home!
A sad end to a great day s:cry: :cry: s:cry: .
aww what a shame ste.. it eventually went pop.. good luck with a new un s:) :) s:) come on go 2zz with a modified c2? you know you want to s:) :) s:)
boo hoo s:cry: :cry: s:cry: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
So sorry for you loss Spit
I did wonder what a run to the cat and back had to do with the C2 tho.
Give us a shout when you get a new heart for your toy and I'm sure we'll all chuck in to help with the transplant
chin up
D
sorry to hear this Ste s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
Thanks guys, but there's absolutely no misery here. Let's face it;
.... I've had two and a half years of stonking hoot on a DIY budget. Thats way more than we expected and way more than I deserve ....
.... I've had a fabulous day out hooning round the B-roads with great mates ....
.... David finally got to sing "two little boys" ....
.... and if I'd put my name down for Corfu I'd have been stranded in Belgium. No-one wants that! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Nope, this is the way it should be. s8) 8) s8)
tis a sad sad sad day for the roc mate. at least as with sandi's incident there were some other members about with you. the old girl has served you well.
any ideas what it is? is it defo terminal?
plans for the replacement motor?
is the turbo dead or can i have dibs on it (you'd have to install it too! s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D )
keep smiling mate,
as one door closes, another one opens.
(http://thinkorthwim.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/tombstone1.jpg)
J s:D :D s:D
see above!
Yes, its terminal.... which means options s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Ideas welcomed.
Congratulations on having it last so long Ste! Whilst it's sad to see it go, I can't think of a better way for it to happen. s8) 8) s8)
Oh noes s:( :( s:(
Sorry to see this, Ste.. So.. 2ZZ? There's a 2ZZ C2 manifold on SC you know.... s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "Ekona"Congratulations on having it last so long Ste! Whilst it's sad to see it go, I can't think of a better way for it to happen. s8) 8) s8)
Absolutely, it went out on a high. It didnt seem to suffer a slow and agonising death - hell, I was driving it an hour previous and thinking what decent power it had (Ste assures me my lousy piloting had nothing to do with it).
A lovely few hours driving though, and a nice send off to the old 1ZZ. Lets hope it isn't too long until E11 is back on the road (its handling is sublime) - made my roadster feel like a barge.
Sorry to see it end that way Ste, but better there than overseas as you said.
If you are still up for it on the 17th you are welcome to come with me, not got the power of the C2, but you are more than welcome to have a drive of an N/A - Gails not coming s:D :D s:D s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Rob
s:cry: :cry: s:cry: Sad news my friend - but I think that you knew that it was coming, hope you get it sorted soon.
how about
(http://www.themotorreport.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/toyota-rav4-v6-2007-733963.jpg)
you know it makes sense. and to reiterate what rob says, at least you were on home soil when the old girl let go.... doesnt bear thinking about... although you could have stayed in corfu and opened a bar - casa spit
karma eh?
J
Quote from: "enid_b"is the turbo dead or can i have dibs on it
I asked for first dibs on that, ages and ages ago s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
But I doubt its going anywhere
vultures s:roll: :roll: s:roll: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: And yes, Chris'll confirm that the turbo is alive and well!
I loved driving Chris's car today. Its much more me - a healthy kick but plenty of quiet, comfort and lollop .... could n/a be destiny for e11 and an old geezer like meself?
As for alternatives - I'll think about that once I've established what has gone on today.
Insurance is a factor - my underwriter's letter allows me to do what the heck I like providing I stick within the 1zz arena. Doubt I'd get that kind of deal again if I changed radically.
s:( :( s:( Don't know what to say m8.. but I hope you get something sorted, for all the work you have put in you deserve something just as good.
If you are around when we (me and the wife) come down to collect my car I'll give you a go in the 'rolla... Supercharged 2zz... might help you come to a decision s;) ;) s;)
s:? :? s:? The old girl's done you proud and with a meaty satisfying day has rode into the sunset - for now s8) 8) s8)
We knew it was coming, we knew it was inevitable, we're just impressed by how you and she have battled on so and had fun into the bargain. Your thinking is sound though, a 1ZZ properly sorted with low compression pistons, rods, and turbo cams and let the boost roll on s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
In his words....
(http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Content/Images/Journal/2003/Summer/Giants/TheKurgan.jpg)
It's better to burn out than fade away
Wow big shame mate to lose such a cutie, hope you can fix it, flog it, repair it ot strip it and get what your hear desires.
RIP
Hard luck Ste.
Unfortunately these things come us once in a while, but I'm sure you will ensure there is a positive outcome....whatever that may be.
s:( :( s:(
What bad news, Ste...
Perhaps it's time to visit MWR web and buying hard goodies... s:P :P s:P Or perhaps Gaspar still has it's beastie engine for sale... s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Mate I'm gutted for you! s:cry: :cry: s:cry:
Was good trying (and failing) to keep pace with you on the twisties! Hope you'll be back on the road soon s:D :D s:D
Not a good bank holiday for you then, poor sod. Sorry to see the old lass has finally given up the ghost but you were doom mongering for a few months anyway and if nothing else, it's an excuse to properly mess around with a new engine s:lol: :lol: s:lol: Coming out of the slippery months, there must be a few crashed MR's around to give you a nice donor engine s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:
I hope it works out for you fella, if you need a hand fitting a new engine one weekend, give us a shout.
Have no fear Mike: if I need pairs of hands I'll be shouting. Still no angst here though, and despite what you might think I had a great weekend all round!
Some brilliant support from your messages and PMs. Aaron has been coaching me via MSN, and the local crew have been phoning all day. David even offered me his car for the NW drive on the 17th. Bless. (And Jason had already done the same re: Corfu 'cos of my concerns about the engine). I may never need my own '2 again! How cool is that? s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Over the next few days I want to get the Autozam fettled for MOT and back on the road, then I'll try to establish what has let go in the '2. I'll start with the simple stuff (there's always hope, eh?) and develop it from there.
Haven't quite given up on an MR-S rear clip from Japan ... it must have upset her to know I was discussing her retirement s:P :P s:P .
The lolloping beast has finally given up the ghost. A sad day but well worth the fun you've had out of it! s:D :D s:D
If you need a lift on the 17th let me know. No flasks of coffee in the car though! s:D :D s:D
This would be nice if you wanted to go 2zz
(someone might want to shorten that - or teach me how to EDIT>.. thanks DAN!).
Clicky (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2006-TOYOTA-COROLLA-SPORT-1-8-ENGINE-GEARBOX-2ZZ-GE_W0QQitemZ290227497089QQihZ019QQcategoryZ10428QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247)
Would it be worth considering one of the salvage "2s" that pop up on flea bat from time to time s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Quote from: "northernalex"This would be nice if you wanted to go 2zz
Clicky (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2006-TOYOTA-COROLLA-SPORT-1-8-ENGINE-GEARBOX-2ZZ-GE_W0QQitemZ290227497089QQihZ019QQcategoryZ10428QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247)
(someone might want to shorten that - or teach me how to).
Like this:
[url=entire link goes here]Clicky[/url]Easy. s;) ;) s;)
[mod=aaronjb]Edited to stop the dman window scrolling horizontally s:P :P s:P [/mod]
not a bad price but the gearbox won;t work
It wont fit in the 2? (the gearbox)?
Alex
The shifter shaft comes out of the wrong side of the gearbox (well, it comes out upward rather than to the rear like ours).
Relatively easy fix, though - get a machined shift shaft from LR and then swap that and the 5 speed shifter housing etc over to the 6 speed box.
That's what they have to do in the US since no Spyder (except SMT) ever came with the 6 speed gearbox IIRC.
Considering all the other parts you need for a 2ZZ swap (dipstick tube, engine mount bridge, exhaust manifold, ECU, drill the engine for the driveshaft carrier) a modified shift shaft doesn't seem like too big a deal to me..
Quote from: "spit"could n/a be destiny for e11 and an old geezer like meself?
As for alternatives - I'll think about that once I've established what has gone on today.
Sorry to hear of your sad loss.
Quote from: "spit"could n/a be destiny for e11 and an old geezer like meself?
As for alternatives - I'll think about that once I've established what has gone on today.
Sorry to hear of your sad loss s:( :( s:(
Can't you make room for something like this...
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff69/gav1980/480227362_fdb673bdfd.jpg)
...if anyone can, you can s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Ooo handy for making toast Gav s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Well, I'm getting somewhere. For starters, I sorted out the AZ-3 last night and today it breezed the MOT and is officially back on the road. Yay.
As for the '2, I've only gone semi-invasive so far.
No external signs of leaks, fluid loss or damage.
Plugs are as expected and a peep into the bores is inconclusively usual s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Took the rocker cover off last night and at first glance everything looks healthy and lubed. Chain tensioner is tensioning and the damper and slipper are intact as far as I can see.
However, I noticed some slack on the chain. Had the tensioner out and it seems to be holding oil OK, ratcheting and doing its job. I've never had an issue with tensioner rattle but for the sake of 25 quid, and because its an original fitting, I've ordered another one to see if it has a bit more bite to it.
Also been in touch with ASBO Phil. We replaced his OP gauge with a less cheapo version a few weeks ago, so I'm gonna borrow the old one and see what the pump is putting out.
It'll be a few days before everything arrives, but as I mentioned earlier the simple stuff is worth a punt. I'd be surprised if the grunge to a halt is entirely down to a failure of the chain mechanism but I'd be thrilled if this boostie saga has yet another twist to it. We'll see s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
(http://www.sc.iitb.ac.in/~janas/Fcros.jpg)
Quote from: "spit"Took the rocker cover off last night and at first glance everything looks healthy and lubed. Chain tensioner is tensioning and the damper and slipper are intact as far as I can see.
However, I noticed some slack on the chain. Had the tensioner out and it seems to be holding oil OK, ratcheting and doing its job. I've never had an issue with tensioner rattle but for the sake of 25 quid, and because its an original fitting, I've ordered another one to see if it has a bit more bite to it.
If the chain has gone loose then there is a pretty good chance that it has jumped a tooth on one of the cams - this could have resulted in the intake or exhaust valves remaining open during the compression part of the cycle which would result in the whistling noise you have been hearing.
One thing I would say is if the chain is in any way suspect dont be tempted to run the engine at all until you have checked the relative timing of the cams to the crank as if it jumps again then valves and pistons may start getting intimate with one another. A quick check would be to make sure the timing marks on the cams both point verticaly at the same time.
If the chain has jumped then change it - it aint worth keeping as it's almost certainly past it's sell-by date.
HTH
Thanks Steve. Out of interest, is there any guidance on stretch or lateral play limits to check with our timing chain, or is it just subject to a routine change?
Chris at cheaptoyotaparts has quoted 89 quid delivered for a new chain. Thats not half bad.
Hi Ste
I hope that the chain is the root of your problem, but if it as jumped a link then there is a good chance that the tensioner is worn - tramlined, (I'm not talking about the piston bye the way). Can the tensioner be brought as well???
Also is it an engine out job to replace it or can you get access while still in the car?
Good luck
Rob
Quote from: "spit"Thanks Steve. Out of interest, is there any guidance on stretch or lateral play limits to check with our timing chain, or is it just subject to a routine change?
Chris at cheaptoyotaparts has quoted 89 quid delivered for a new chain. Thats not half bad.
Yes there are limits detailed in the BGB (dont have access to my copy until the weekend, but if no-one else has sent you a copy of the relevant bits before then let me know and I will PM it over)
If you are changing the chain, then the BGB highly recommends renewing all other parts associated with it - slipper, guide, tensioner etc. Also as you are removing the main crank pulley, I would renew the seal in the timing chain cover.
I believe it can be done with the engine in - it's possible to change the oil pump in-situ and you have to remove the timing chain to get to that.
Access to the area on the other hand is going to be fiddly to say the least! Given you dont have to rush to do this, I would highly recommend getting the engine out - that way you can be sure that the cover is sealed back on properly.
HTH
SteveJ
PS. The 1ZZ is an 'interferance' engine (ie. the valves and pistons CAN come into contact with one-another if the cam timing is too far out) that's why I said dont be tempted to run the engine until you are sure the cam <--> crank timing is still OK.
PPS.
Quote from: "FGRob"I hope that the chain is the root of your problem, but if it as jumped a link then there is a good chance that the tensioner is worn - tramlined, (I'm not talking about the piston bye the way). Can the tensioner be brought as well???
The bit you are referring to Rob is called the slipper in the BGB
That all sounds quite promising and less terminal than before s:) :) s:)
Best of luck getting it sorted and back on the road soon. Not sure if there's anything I can do to help s:?: :?: s:?: but if you think of something feel free to give me a shout...
Its pure speculation at this point Gav - but because oil pressure and chain tension are questionnable I want to rule them out before moving on. If they give me some pointers, woohoo, but not holding my breath just yet!
This came on instantaneously which leads me to think that there's something else lurking, rather than an old age wear thing. The tensioner ratchet holds firm, so an instant slip (or slap!) on the chain is unlikely.
Steve, thanks for the timing marks tip ... I'll be sure to check.
Found the chain wear details:
- length of 16 links with the chain fully stretched - maximum chain elongation: 122.6 mm.
- minimum sprocket diameter (w/ Chain): Camshaft 97.3 mm,
Crankshaft 51.6 mm.
- slipper and vibration damper maximum wear: 1.0 mm.
.... but if I take them off to inspect, I might as well replace s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
that's why I said "sounds" s:!: :!: s:!: s:!: :!: s:!: s:!: :!: s:!:
So there is a possibility that it might not be death for the old girl...
merely a dead leg s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
sorry to hear about your engine problems ste s:( :( s:( fingers crossed for a easy fix
Any more news of pinky Ste?
Hope the old girl can be firing again by next weekend - I am sure your kitchen has lots of greasy bits on the worktops s:D :D s:D
I'm still waiting for the parts s:evil: :evil: s:evil: They've been delayed due to food poisoning and server problems s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Hoping the tensioner will arrive tomorrow and the sandwich plate before the week is out.
Gonna double-check the timing marks tonight.
Quick update.
Whatever this problem is, its not terminal. Yay. She starts, she runs, she boosts. The noise is intermittent and remains very difficult to locate. Pumps are pumping and there's no sign of oil starvation or heat damage at either end, but I'm feeling the benefit of new big ends and chain tensioner s8) 8) s8) .
Followers may be suspect but I'm not sure why they'd give up instantaneously or fix themselves s:? :? s:?
So, a decision. Rather than wait for a rear clip I'm biting the bullet and going for a strip and rebuild. Oil consumption needs to be sorted in any case, so while I'm in bits I'll be renewing the vulnerable and tired stuff.
With thanks to Nic for his support, we bimbled over to Charlesworth yesterday. I considered doing this at home but Steve has kindly offered his much better facilities and expertise to help me out. I'll tootle over there on my days off.
Looks like I'll have to keep Steve on a tight lead - he's already planning mods! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
If anyone wants photos of anything specific during strip or rebuild, please shout up and I'll see what I can do.
Suggestions of what to renew are welcomed too.
MWR 1.93L conversion s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Quote from: "kanujunkie"MWR 1.93L conversion s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Hey, he's trying to reduce oil consumption! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
but it will once the pistons are sealing better s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
From several peoples' experience those pistons don't seal very well. s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
You hear about one or two on SC who have to top up after a track day, or even during it!
Good news (I think) Ste - if you need a spanner holder, give us a shout.
Do you think you will be mobile for the camping weekend?
Steve (at Charlesworth) will be getting sick looking at Roadsters s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Good to see you will be back on the road with it soon Ste.
Quote from: "Chris_h"Good news (I think) Ste - if you need a spanner holder, give us a shout.
+1
J
biggest issue is headgasket don;t use teh MWR one, get one made,
Quick water pump question ... perceived wisdom on SC is that a 2zz pump with lightened pulley is a good option and a relatively straight swap.... but pulley size means locating a longer serp belt s:? :? s:? .
Anyone over this side tried it?
Any clues yet as to the source of the elusive clattle (cross between a clatter and a rattle)?
Nope. Theories towards the followers, or possibly a chain that is so tired that the tensioner hit its adjustment limit .... but the intermittent nature of this means we might never find the problem.
With my luck, I'll do a rebuild and still have a noise after its finished s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "spit"Quick water pump question ... perceived wisdom on SC is that a 2zz pump with lightened pulley is a good option and a relatively straight swap.... but pulley size means locating a longer serp belt s:? :? s:? .
Anyone over this side tried it?
2zz pump is defiantely worth it having seen teh differences
Quote from: "markiii"2zz pump is defiantely worth it having seen the differences
Hmmm I'll have to check on the availability of a different size of belt then. The stock AC'd serp belt is already pretty long s:? :? s:?
in theory Goodyear do them in a multitude of sizes just pic one within tolerance, I've never actively tried to get one though
A quick update.
Progress is slow as I'm only spending a few hours a week on the car. The dirty work is all done, so its now time to work out how it all goes back together s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
After several rounds of consultation (thanks guys - you know who you are), I've decided to keep everything stock. It has served me well, and it seems that there is a trade-off with all of the upgrades I've looked into. So, stock it is.
Still no obvious diagnosis on the original problem, but there were signs of very recent detonation, the chain was stretched, and the chain guides worn. I'm thinking that the cams were drifting out of sync because of this, although why it happened immediately and then became an intermittent problem is very odd.
If anyone wants any specific photos taking, shout up.
Quote from: "spit"Still no obvious diagnosis on the original problem, but there were signs of very recent detonation....
Here's what I mean - the same across all four cylinders, although this is the worst of them.....
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4623/1004098kq3.jpg)
Before the head was cleaned, these were shiny, fresh and new marks ... so whatever happened happened instantaneously (and then intermittently!). Any ideas?
I'm guessing here that they're a mirror of the mess on top of the pistons.
Detonation occurred on top of the pistons and then the debris was squished against the head?
I reckon that was the clattering you were hearing.
Just what on earth caused this detonation? (Your question really)
You timing chain was obviously well stretched, which happens over time and distance gradually.
But i remember of my bike chains that once they started stretching they seemed to accelerate in wear and stretch, so hypothetically could you have suffered this kind of action?
Obviously the chain strethed to such a point that the tensioner and runners were no longer controlling it's slap which would result in unpredictable and variable valve action - a 'good' cause for detonation. It won't have been constant as rev rise and drop the chain slaps at different moments thus changing the valve timing constantly. Also, chains don't stretch linearly along their length, you might have a few links stretched more than the others - this can happen suddenly and is a precursor to full failure and a snap (don't want that happening now do we?). How suddenly i don't really know the physics, but bike chains can do it pretty rapidly - BUT they are under greater strain (but are also bigger).
Hmmmmm..... so can the head be salvaged and the damage polished out? A bit of gentle grinding and polishing needs to be balanced across all cylinders to ensure the cylinder capacity and squish volumes are kept in balance (you don't want an unbalanced engine - asking for crank trouble then). One advantage to increasing the squish volume - or rather reducing the amount the charge is squished means that you are reducing the compression ration of the engine - which is good for FI setups.
Someone will probably come along to say i'm wrong, but it makes sense to me.
s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Thats about the limit of my thinking too Nic.
I've ruled out crappy fuel as this occured mid-tank after a day of fun. The Emanage bottling it is unlikely as the car was running fine under most conditions before & since, and just going silly at idle .... so yes, it kinda points towards the chain. If you recall, removing and re-setting the chain tensioner did improve things for a while.
The domes should polish up OK. If they don't we're into big bucks.....
....or for the same price I could probably land this - going through auction today. Much more my style!
(http://www.rushcorp.com/cars/photos/flier/r5059.jpg)
Hi Ste
Looks like you may have found some of your problem - there was or still could be a second hand head on ebay.
Thanks
Rob.
Quote from: "FGRob"Looks like you may have found some of your problem
Problem found Rob, but the cause is still a mystery, and thats the infuriating thing s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "FGRob"Looks like you may have found some of your problem
Problem found Rob, but the cause is still a mystery, and thats the infuriating thing s:( :( s:(
Here's one to think about, have you checked your blades on the turbo s:idea: :idea: s:idea:
Quote from: "FGRob"Here's one to think about, have you checked your blades on the turbo
(http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/5540/1004103bb1.jpg)
nice pic ste, but is that a good thing or a bad thing, my inexperience with turbos doesnt tell me a thing.
its like the inverse of "this post is useless without pictures"
lol,
glad it seems to be working out mate
J
I'm not sure what I'm looking at either matey s:D :D s:D It looks like everything is intact. Scratty, but intact.
I think that's why Rob was asking - in case a blade was damaged and the engine damage was actually from it ingesting a bit of turbo blade.. but no, they look fine with no blade or housing damage visible.
The pitting on the head looks pretty deep, I'm not sure you'll be able to polish that out s:( :( s:(
Quote from: "aaronjb"I think that's why Rob was asking - in case a blade was damaged and the engine damage was actually from it ingesting a bit of turbo blade.. but no, they look fine with no blade or housing damage visible.
The pitting on the head looks pretty deep, I'm not sure you'll be able to polish that out s:( :( s:(
Yep - best to strike it off the list - do I see fresh paint Ste s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:
I think you could be right about the pitting.
I don't think I've seen damage like that before as a result of "pinking" it's more in keeping with a small object let loose in there.
Rob.
is it just the picture or is there some metal chips out of the centre of the hub of the turbo?
Quote from: "kanujunkie"is it just the picture or is there some metal chips out of the centre of the hub of the turbo?
I believe that's how they balance turbos s:) :) s:)
It does look for all the world as if something was ingested into all of the pots, but there's no sign of what or where from.
I've never seen detonation damage before so no clue what I should be looking for s:oops: :oops: s:oops: . The damage is all at the 'high' points - the valves are completely untouched s:shock: :shock: s:shock: . Ditto on the pistons - damage was limited to front and rear peaks between the valves.
Bores are unmarked too.
(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/4471/1004090rk1.jpg)
(no fresh paint on the compressor Rob, just an oily rag wipe of the ceramic coating)
Quote from: "Jaik"Quote from: "kanujunkie"is it just the picture or is there some metal chips out of the centre of the hub of the turbo?
I believe that's how they balance turbos s:) :) s:)
Yep, what that man said - same way you balance cranks when removing material.. with a drill bit s;) ;) s;)
Quote from: "spit"It does look for all the world as if something was ingested into all of the pots, but there's no sign of what or where from.
I've never seen detonation damage before so no clue what I should be looking for s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Block looks very nice, Ste s:) :) s:) I'm jealous! Though I don't want mine to expire just yet *frantically searches for some wood*
FOD damage and detonation damage can look quite alike - to me that looks more like detonation than FOD, though.. FOD usually gives you smoother edges to the pits as the crud gets "squashed" into the softer metal, whereas that looks like little.. well it looks like someone took a drill bit to it in places - very clean, precise, almost surgical "divets".
Still can't quite figure out what would make bad det happen all of a sudden, though - at least not something that wouldn't cause a CEL (since you are running the eManage you do at least get that luxury when a sensor is going AWOL) s:( :( s:(
Have you checked the sparkplugs, broken pieces could have done similar demage? I am assuming heat problems, detonation and blowed sparkplugs..?
That was an issue that did not occur to me Gas - good thinking.... but everything that has been removed has been looked at very closely and is intact s:? :? s:? This is a real mystery.
I polished out the damage in the head today. took a few pics part way through (which I'll root out later) and very pleased with the result.
Quite a reflective and emotional day - I was using Perry's old dremmel for a good few hours. If anything could bring about a good result from a near write-off, that'd be it s8) 8) s8)
poor old Perry, funny was thinking of him yesterday and used his 2 to go on my website
I might appear to be a bit thick here Ste, but I am intrigued by what bits you used in the dremel to polish those divots out.
Might be handy to know in case I ever need to do something like that.
i'd be reading grind rather than polish Nigel
I reckon you're right Stu, especially after seeing what needed sorting out. I'm just curious as to the actual bits used.
Quote from: "markiii"biggest issue is headgasket don;t use the MWR one, get one made,
Not true. I just built a 82mm bore 1zz and got hold of both the MWR gasket and the standard 1zz gasket to compare. There is no reason whatsoever that the modified gasket will not seal as good as a stock gasket on a stock head.
You need to make sure the head and block are perfect flat (recommend skimming both) and completly grease free. Put a tiny bit of rtv around the modified areas of the gasket and it will work A-OK.
Use ARP studs properly greased. Tighten and leave for 24h before re-checking torques.
I know - mine works perfectly.
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "spit"Still no obvious diagnosis on the original problem, but there were signs of very recent detonation....
Here's what I mean - the same across all four cylinders, although this is the worst of them.....
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4623/1004098kq3.jpg)
Before the head was cleaned, these were shiny, fresh and new marks ... so whatever happened happened instantaneously (and then intermittently!). Any ideas?
That is heat damage. Material has got so overheated that differential thermal expansion has cracked the valve seat facing (I think it is Stellite). Possibly this caused a crack to propagate through the Aluminium casting but can't tell from the picture.
Oh Crikey spitz! s:( :( s:( I guess time will tell if I have further hidden damage waiting to appear s:? :? s:? .
Quote from: "kanujunkie"i'd be reading grind rather than polish Nigel
Bit of both and neither! I actually found that the best thing to use was one of the disposable emery sleeves that slides onto the dremmel's rubber bush attachment. I wore the emery down a little on a piece of scrap steel before attacking the head - with the sleeve not quite fully home on the rubber so that I had an unsupported taper at the end to work the angles with minimal pressure (hard to explain in words, but it worked a treat).
I finished off with some dremmel polishing compound buffed on and off with the large felt wheel. The result:
(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4152/1004108pr3.jpg)
Nice work s:) :) s:)
Nice work Ste.
Couple of things -
Why don't you have the head dye pen checked now its nice and clean, it will show up any cracks and will tell you if you have wasted your time or not. Rocol make the stuff not sure if I can get hold of any. You need the cleaner, dye and then the chalk.
Also are you having the head skimmed, a must with an alloy head.
Rob.
Quote from: "sjspitz"Quote from: "markiii"biggest issue is headgasket don;t use the MWR one, get one made,
Not true. I just built a 82mm bore 1zz and got hold of both the MWR gasket and the standard 1zz gasket to compare. There is no reason whatsoever that the modified gasket will not seal as good as a stock gasket on a stock head.
You need to make sure the head and block are perfect flat (recommend skimming both) and completly grease free. Put a tiny bit of rtv around the modified areas of the gasket and it will work A-OK.
Use ARP studs properly greased. Tighten and leave for 24h before re-checking torques.
I know - mine works perfectly.
Hang on, how much rad weld did you put in, that's going the hide a lot of leaks for a short period of time.
I'm afraid you need to do a couple of 1000 miles before you can make that statement.
Rob
Thanks for the pic and explanation Ste, it all helps me understand a bit more. Hope its all good when it goes back together. s:) :) s:) Certainly looks pristine by comparison with the before shots.
Quote from: "FGRob"Hang on, how much rad weld did you put in, that's going the hide a lot of leaks for a short period of time.
I'm afraid you need to do a couple of 1000 miles before you can make that statement.
Rob
You are totally correct. It is just that on SC, the failures with this gasket have been either compression loss, or oil usage. No one reported coolant system issues....my compression & oil use are A-OK....(have scribed a line on the dipstick to monitor)...even after repeated thrashing on the rev limiter.
I guess we'll see....
Another update, although some of you already know - its alive s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce: s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
I can't begin to tell you how much fun I had at Charlesworth. The guys there have been superb. I was missing the jokes and ribbing so much today that I went back to work on MR2Only Steve's car!
So, what was the problem? Well, it was detonation of unknown aetiology. Nothing that came off was obviously broken or knackered, but the chain was pretty stretched and I'm guessing that it was causing the cams to spring out of sync. That, coupled with overall tiredness, was probably enough to send the engine silly. Possible that a slight overheating wasn't helping matters.
Back on the road now with a clean engine, comprising: pistons, rings, full gasket/seal set (no more oil loss hoorah), ground-in valves, dremelled head!, chain, chain guides, chain tensioner, big ends, small ends, water pump, oil pump, a sensor or two, thermostat.
plus:
Clean pipework and new clips (thanx for the EBay link Rob)
A half-decent Turbo brace
Coated crossmember, a-r bar and Ché bars
Lightened flywheel
Twos'r'us rear bush set
Nic's knackered Twos'r'us droplink s:x :x s:x
Cast manifold & turbo-X ceramic triple coat
Greddy OP gauge
Home-made kick plate to hide the ridiculous nest of wiring
New Apexi filter
Second Sandwich plate and larger oil filter
New CV boot to replace a fubarred one (needed a MrT boot at £47 !!! argh)
....and a few other goodies here and there.
Me happy.
Just need to sort out the 'poor man's supercharger' (aka whining belt tensioner wheel). Oh, and the tune is all over the place at idle, partly due to rebuild and clean install and partly, I suspect, because of the lightened flywheel. I'll tweak that when I find someone nearby with a laptop s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Photos to follow when I can be ar$ed s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
thats great news ste s:D :D s:D s:D :D s:D back to top down motoring when the weather improves
excellent news matey s:D :D s:D
glad you went for the tuff as nails cast option in the end, a bit of grief i'm sure but totally worth it.
and whilst you've been off the road i can now join you in the 50K+ turbo'd club s:D :D s:D really should get it properly tuned sometime s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Congrats Stu. Its a good innings for boosted stock internals. Makes you wonder how much more you'd get if the mapping was a bit more sympathetic to the car. Its on my list .... paint yours red and we may be able to sneak in on a two-for-one s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Excellent news Ste!! glad it's all back running and all is well!! and its great to know that some of your expertise and knowledge is going to benefit my motor! s8) 8) s8) very much appreciating the help and guidance!!
sounds good s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
i really should tune it, but it keeps up fine with the other turbo's, but with it running rich i really should tune it properly to save fuel!
Quote from: "kanujunkie"it keeps up fine with the other turbo's, but with it running rich i really should tune it properly to save fuel!
It keeps up with the wind! Its that quick, the C2 is one seriously powerful piece of kit, and also one that seems to stand the test of time too. Well done both of Ste and Stu. s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:
Quote from: "loadswine"It keeps up with the wind! Its that quick, the C2 is one seriously powerful piece of kit, and also one that seems to stand the test of time too.
Cheers Nige s:D :D s:D
yep, its a gem of a kit, if only the stock gearbox and clutches would last as well, another clutch is killed and the gearbox has its moments, still the 6-speed is fixed and the ACT is ready to go, time for the whining J-spec 5-speed to be removed
Good to hear your back on the road Ste. I hope your body hasn't become too acustomed to comfort for you to be able to enjoy it.
So it's just the ultimate to fit now then?
I have to say I'm one of the lucky ones who has benefited from Ste's knowledge and one of the few who have heard the rebuild running, sounds as sweet as.
Steve (mr2only).. get that exhaust sorted out... it looks like a snake thats found a hiding place from Crocodile Dundee lol s;) ;) s;)
Good to hear you are up and running again Ste.
Rob
Ta guys.
Rob (the other one!) - yep, EM-Ultimate needs to go in along with ignition timing harness (C2 runs just on airflow and injection tweaks). I'll probably add a MAP feed while I'm at it - pretty easy as i already have the Greddy boost gauge and don't need the sensor and electronics. s8) 8) s8)
Also need to find a home for the wideband now that its been booted out by the OP gauge. I have a cunning plan....
Quote from: "spit"Second Sandwich plate and larger oil filter
Just as food for thought...according to Mugen smaller oil filter is better...in Japan they change all their filters on ITR/CTR for smaller ones and than use clamps around them to prevent them from expanding during hard driving (teperature does influence on size as i understand). Smaller ones couse they filter all the same but with less oil needed to fill them up...I think you can (if you are interested) see all about this in Best Motoring International DVDs about Integra TypeR...
Glad you are back on road s:) :) s:)
Yeepee... I might get a run in the Stemobile at last!!
Quote from: "CeeDeeHR"Just as food for thought...according to Mugen smaller oil filter is better...in Japan they change all their filters on ITR/CTR for smaller ones and than use clamps around them to prevent them from expanding during hard driving (teperature does influence on size as i understand). Smaller ones couse they filter all the same but with less oil needed to fill them up...I think you can (if you are interested) see all about this in Best Motoring International DVDs about Integra TypeR...
Interesting. Larger filter is just a temp measure during run-in cos I had one kicking about - if there's crud to catch after the rebuild I figured I might as well make sure that there's enough filter to catch it and keep working. Just my fuzzy logic, no basis on evidence s;) ;) s;)
nice to see its back together love.
this has to be the most read thread in roc history, your pushing 40000 views mate.
see, we do care. xxxx
Quote from: "spit"and the tune is all over the place at idle....
Not any more s:D :D s:D . Stripped off the TB today and removed the IAC valve assembly which was totally caked shut s:x :x s:x After a thorough clean-up, everything is ticky-boo again. A good thing, as I priced them up at MrT and they aint cheap.
Slight issue with the ceramic coating though - the Turbo-X top layer is turning to powder and falling off s:shock: :shock: s:shock: I called Peter at Camcoat and have sent him pictures. I'm not the first - everyone in last month's batch has had the same problem. Ar$e s:x :x s:x . I'm reluctant to strip down again now, but Peter will make good when it finally does get removed.
Quote from: "spit"Quote from: "spit"and the tune is all over the place at idle....
Not any more s:D :D s:D . Stripped off the TB today and removed the IAC valve assembly which was totally caked shut s:x :x s:x After a thorough clean-up, everything is ticky-boo again. A good thing, as I priced them up at MrT and they aint cheap.
Slight issue with the ceramic coating though - the Turbo-X top layer is turning to powder and falling off s:shock: :shock: s:shock: I called Peter at Camcoat and have sent him pictures. I'm not the first - everyone in last month's batch has had the same problem. Ar$e s:x :x s:x . I'm reluctant to strip down again now, but Peter will make good when it finally does get removed.
Coated on the outside only I hope?
Yes Jaik. A double ceramic base layer inside and out but its the Turbo-X top coat on the outside that hasn't adhered.
I may revert to the cermakrome Satin Black finish if Peter's gurus in America can't solve the problem.
Thank god for that!
Fantastic news Ste.. just had a good long read of this thread!
s:) :) s:)
Ste took me out for a little run in the beast tonight and it's rather swift. Looking forward to another go when it's all mapped and run in s;) ;) s;)
On that note, does anyone have a few grand and the number of a cheap insurance company lying around?
nope but I do have a spare turbo kit :-) :-) :-)
If it's free then I could afford the insurance s;) ;) s;)
Respect to my C2 brother from another mother s8) 8) s8)
/Phil.
Those in the know will be aware that I've slightly oversubscribed on "things to go on my plate" at the moment .... but I'm still bizarrely annoyed and slightly bored now that the car has needed no attention whatsoever since the engine rebuild.
The point of this post? I can thoroughly recommend this course of action for anyone with the time and inclination to give it a go as an alternative to sourcing a scrapper or 'recon'. Financially its a viable option if you DIY or find a friendly garage.
The only downside is that I keep losing my tools now - they used to live in the car at all times and now they're scattered across spitville s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I hope you haven't lost my screwdriver..... s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
Good to hear the rebuild did the trick! If you're missing car tinkering, my exhaust is rattling. s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Sounds like the baffles have gone but I'm in denial.
Surely it's only viable if the engine is in good condition to start with. When I priced it up I couldn't get it under £900 and thats without a crank re grind. Ok course it depends on the level you want to get it back to, I can't bring myself to put the rusty crank pulley back on and thats £130 on its own. Gasket set £131 Big ends £72 Crank bearings £92 etc etc. That with machining and 4 pistons just priced me out.
How did you do it?
True, you have to consider the baseline of damage that you're starting with. I didn't say it was cheaper, i just said it was a financially viable alternative s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
I priced up engines and was faced with either something with unknown history or a recon with a brief warranty requiring exchange or an additional 250 quid to purchase outright. I simply couldn't afford this in one hit.
Taking the rebuild route allowed me to spread the cost so that is was manageable, and allowed me the opportunity to swap out tired stuff on a known unit. I believe the end result was worth it, and if it all goes t!ts up at least there's only one person to blame s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Our affiliate Chris can also help out when it comes to supplying parts at sensible prices.
They were Chris's prices.
You are right on the having an engine you trust. I wouldn't trust a recon just by the fact that If I can't recon an engine for that price how can they. I may still rebuild mine but have a couple more options to try first.
Yep its scary how the prices add up but I was looking at a one-off hit of £1350 plus delivery for a recon outright ... and the guys couldn't verify the history of the 1-zz. Maybe I didn't look hard enough.
In my case the rebuild came in cheaper than that as I had great support from the ROC and the guys at Charlesworth, but it was ultimately the spreading of the costs that made it feasible. I also had less damage to contend with than you do.
I still have a whining tensioner pulley but its holding up fine after being cleaned out and greased to hell and back. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Whichever way you jump Rob, I'm sure you'll end up with a beastie s8) 8) s8)
Talking of that tensioner. I had a look at machining one. You'll have to give me the size of the bearing you have cos I'm struggling with it. Because the arm has a stud which it ataches to it really hard to get a wider bearing on there. Haven't looked yet at removing the stud (wanted to get a spare to try that on) cos if I can do that then its no problem. Will be over to see you soon to catch up. Got some bad news as well. That throttle valve I had for you got broken when some one nights used my bench. Will try and get you another.
Quote from: "custardavenger"You'll have to give me the size of the bearing you have cos I'm struggling with it.
I'm seeing Steve at the weekend. I'll ask him to get it back for me if the engineering shop haven't lost it s:? :? s:? .
If your free next week I'll be over your way one afternoon. Should I bring my plumbing gear? s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Quote from: "custardavenger"If your free next week I'll be over your way one afternoon. Should I bring my plumbing gear? s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
All over the place chaos next week but hope we can hook up Rob.
NSK bearing is #6203DU. I have it here.
Can anyone here remind my grey matter what size of oil feed restrictor works well with the Garrett? 35thou (0.9mm) rings a bell but I'm not sure its the right bell!
Thankee.
Yep, 0.035" or ~0.9mm for the BB series, e.g. : m http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... gory_Code= (http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TP&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-021&Category_Code=) m
0.065" acceptable for plain bearing or 'large' BB turbos according to ATP: m http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... gory_Code= (http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TP&Product_Code=ATP-OIL-022&Category_Code=) m
Jubbly Aaron, thanks.
I've still got Stu's on the shelf in my garage Ste.
Cheers Simon. I struggled with the thread on the hose connection with that one s:? :? s:? . This oil fitting terminology is incredibly confusing. I'll probably get a full hose and restrictor assembly ready to go in at the next oil change. No urgency.
As another thought, as well as Turbo Technics you could probably do worse than speaking to Mocal and see if they can make an assembly up for you - or even Pirtek, although I suspect the size orifices they are used to are slightly larger on industrial machinery s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Pirtek do a braided 3/8ths PTFE pipe and can suage down to that size. They're not great when it comes to getting hold of the smaller fittings, which reflects in their prices. You're right, they're generally dealing with big 'dustrial stuff. I'll try Mocal tho. s8) 8) s8)
Well, the car may be dropping away around the kit but yesterday saw the C2 clocking up 75k of turbo'd miles. s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:
Maybe now would be a good time to get it mapped s:P :P s:P
Well done mate. s:D :D s:D
TLC time. Probably a good thing as I've been whingeing about boring reliability for a little too long s:oops: :oops: s:oops:
Got a sudden farting after a dodgy piece of tarmac tonight. A quick look in the dark and I think its spat out a mani-turbo stud. Sheared? Bracing given up? Not sure ..... I'll check it out in the morning.