He didn't come in his car.  Mine is a PFL JDM MRS.  His is a europsec fl, I believe.  you'll have to ask him as I have no comparison.  He thought mine steered better,.  Could be down to tyres of course.  Mt other car is a PFL eurospec bog standard.  Does not corner quite as well, but it's not enough of a difference to make up for driver talent.

Carolyn its too bad you didn't get to try his car as the comparison would have been interesting.

But you are right about the difficulty of ascertaining what makes the difference.  My strut brace might not be making a difference due to all the other mods/ braces on my car,  whilst if it were used in isolation I might feel differently.

It was very interesting to drive Carolyn's car. Mine is a standard facelift car. The pfl felt very much more wobbly with scuttle shake going over bumps etc but it turned very crisply (pretty much the same as mine) in response to steering inputs which surprised me given the very noticeably reduced overall body stiffness which I expected would dull the steering response. I therefore assumed this may be due to the suspension braces helping specifically with steering inputs, rightly or wrongly? I have decent Dunlop tyres all round, although they are 5 years old. I have never driven a pfl without braces, so again I don't have all the reference points covered.

Duh - I misunderstood the implications Carolyn's earlier post...

Lamcote I believe your Fl car is stiffer than a pfl due to brace design improvements. Someone on here will know all the details.

I don't think, given the difference in tyres, that anything can be inferred.  The only way to know is to put my braces on Patrick's car and drive it.  Or take the braces off my car and drive it.

I'm definitely going to brace mine underneath.  I'll make my own 'Mattbrace' and report back.

I still think that driver ability has far more effect than any amount of tweaking.

I couldn't agree more Carolyn. Wouldn't it be great if we could all bolt on some extra skill!

OK Carolyn, put your braces on my car and I'll drive it....... (home)....!!

Compare apples to apples. If you had the time, means and will it would be epic to take the pre-fl and the FL and do a stage by stage review of each. It would take allll day, but it would be amazing to know what each brace does, and try combinations

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Sounds tempting

Quote from: "lamcote"OK Carolyn, put your braces on my car and I'll drive it....... (home)....!!

I suppose you want me to throw in my gearbox too?

The only way it would mean anything would be to run the same tyres on each car.  Which could be done

Ooh yes that lovely gear shift, now you're talking.

So it would mean fitting the braces and swapping the wheels would it? Not the end of the world?

Having played this weekend with my braces quite a bit i have some input to put into this -

However i am on my way out the door to work now, but will update the thread later with my findings  s:D s:D

You tease...

So my experimentation was as follows this weekend:

No braces - Less initial bite, more screeching from the tyres, neutral handling pushing into understeer.

Front brace only -  Lots more initial bite and "feel" on the front end which allowed you to push harder. The rear end felt less planted than the front, almost as though it was being pulled by the front end as opposed to the other way round. Additionally the rear would break traction easier than the front.

I took the front brace off for a control run which made the car back to the first stage.

Front and rear - More neutral handling, even more feel, easier to steer on the throttle controlably. Less oversteer i would say, certainly you could control the back end more delicately.

Front and rear and a hard top - this was a bit strange. The hard top didnt seem to do anything to the handling that I can see however it completely eradicates scuttle shake, which i am sure does have a handling effect but not one i could actively tell.

I will be interested to try the matt brace now, my thoughts are that bracing will have diminishing returns. - so i may be at a good point of stiffness already (stop giggling at the back!)

What suspension are you running? Stock?
The big difference we've seen on the forum is impact of bracing between those on coilovers and thsoe on stock shocks.

Regardless, great findings!

Really interesting information, cheers.

I was a bit skeptical about it since in a coupe-world it doesn't do much (at least so is my experience/cars).

But after reading this I'm intrigued to install front brace. There's no question to me if mr2 needs additional bracing. Will report once I get to it  s;) s;)

makes perfect sense - be interesting to hear what suspension and tyre sizes you're on.

I think it also has to be noted that the rigidity of the brace in question is a major factor.  This TRD brace has double cross braces (with a plate between them) and very rigid attachment to the strut tops bolting at all three points and with a stiffening cap.  It does not have cross bolts at each end of the bar (which must allow some flex).

I suspect that some aftermarket braces are a bit cosmetic.

thats a piece of kit!! I think braces are next on my list!

TRD rear brace.  Also built like a stiff stiff-thing.

In the eyes of a professional I think all of the stuff we do is pretty cringe-worthy to be honest.

The question is, at what point does it become more of a detriment to day to day handling?
I've never considered going fully polybushed for example as, well, I don't track the car and it has to deal with normal road undulations, potholes and occasional dead squirrel. And preferably not rattle my fillings out.

Could argue that adding adjustable coilovers with stiffer progressive springs, polybushing, Yoko AD08R tyres and bracing the living crap out of the car makes it all absolutely great for a flat track with designed, controlled and cambered bends with no debris, but you're actually making it less effective for hooning on public B-roads.

I've definitely had moments where my brakes haven't been as effective because of a bad road surface, due to my coilovers. And I've had the back break out because of a bump in the road and the stiffness of the car. The stock car would have performed better in these two very specific situations.

Put it this way, changing my damping on certain b-roads from 16 to 7 points from soft makes the car go from damn near uncontrollable to smooth, steady and stuck on the road.
Road changes to smooth with long sweeping bends and all of a sudden 7 clicks from soft is causing loss of total grip and I have to stop pushing.

So, what's the best compromise? What bracing/suspension/damping setting/tyres/pressures/alignment makes the car suitable for all conditions?
I think the answer is... stock. But taking on the chin perhaps that certain situations are going to be less optimal, what's the best setup to gain handling performance in situations you want it?

This car came with loads of TRD stuff already fitted (probably by a Japanese owner).  Would I have bought any of it?  Probably not.

I tend to agree that stock is just fine for everyday road use.  You can mess with these cars much too much.

With mine being completely standard I think i'll stick with the braces and standard suspension / bushes.

I enjoy it as it is but find it just a bit unpredictable which hopefully the bracing will sort out!!