what to get with my turbo?

[Anonymous]

right guys,I've thrown my idea for building the most powerful 1zzfe mr2 i can out the window(half way through the process mind you) and I'm going to go turbo.
I'm getting the PE kit from MWR but as I know nothing about turboing a NA car I have a few questions for those with wisdom.

I'm getting the greddy e-manage from MWR aswell tuned to run 7.6 psi.
Q1: is this necessary?will the PE turbo kit run without a piggy back ecu?or is this possible but just not advisable.

Are there any other parts that would be advisable to get i.e. boost controller (anyone have a link to how these work,always wanted to know??) turbo timer, boost gauge.......?

What are the advisable/necessary things to get with the turbo?

I hear the MWR tuned e-manage isn't exactly fine tuned so I'm planning to get the local tuning shop to map it for me

Is this necessary???

thanks for all help in advance

P.S when I finaly go turbo there will be a markiii pipe, Che's manifold and slightly used K&N panel filter going for sale

[Anonymous]

1. Possible, but it's not worth the hassle IMHO. Get a plug 'n' play harness and the hardest bit is done for you.

2. Turbo timer no, boost controller yes if you want to turn the boost up (you will  s:wink: :wink: s:wink: ) and boost guage most definately.

3. How long's a piece of string? Seriously, you could end up spending twice the cost of the PE kit just to get it to the level you want it at: Conversely, some people buy it and leave it as it comes. Have a search of the turbo threads on here and see what you think you'll want.

4. Def get it tuned for your engine, you'll appreciate it so much more. If you doing that, then I wouldn't bother paying for the MWR pre-tuned e-Manage: You can run a turbo'd '2 on the stock ECU long enough and happily enough (providing you don't go silly) to get you to a tuning shop.

5. (Yes, I know there wasn't a 5!) Can I ask why PE? The C2 kit is much better value and quality all round, as a few members on here will happily testify. Probably work out cheaper in the end, too.

[markiii]

normally I'd say search becaue there is loads on this.

however turboing a car is a daunting prospect and to make sure you don't miss anything.

you don't need an emanage for teh PE but it's adviseable.

Since rthe MWR map isn't that good and your getting it tuned anyway just get one teh cheapest you can and worry about it later.

you will definately need a boost guage, a boost controller can come later unless your planning on turning up teh boost imediately

your better off getting an intercooler or chargecooler before teh boost controller, as you will need them if your going for more than 7PSI

and probably even adviseable below that.

I highly reccomend teh emanage harness so you don't have to hack your loom about, Stu ro Lee can hopefully provide teh lionk as I can't find it at the mo

[spit]

Stu ro Lee can hopefully provide the lionk as I can't find it at the mo

Ste might have it

s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Clicky

Envy you Kaiser. Its great being at that end of a build with all those choices ahead  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  You'll love it.

I'd say IC, EManage, BC and a gauge as a minimum to get you on the road with boost options beyond stock.

Cheap-arse here has gone with a manual boost controller. Does the job beautifully. I'll get slated for this, but these fangled electronic gizmos with switchable boost settings and multiple maps etc....pah!  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  My vote is for the KISS principle.

With a slightly tweaked C2 map I'm happily running 0.8 Bar at the moment (oh that sounds good I'll say it again.....0.8 Bar  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  ) and its neck-breakingly quick. Absolutely no complaints from the engine, and even with a period of serious boost leak and ridiculous over-fueling it held together nicely.

The map is happy at all boost levels so I'm not absolutely convinced that an investment in different maps for different settings is necessary. But if you go for it, that'll dictate what you have to plump for in terms of a Boost controller.

One other thing.....if you're still on a stock clutch, its surprisingly resilient but won't last forever and may compromise the mapping if it slips (although the tuners can compensate for it to an extent).

Hang tight - I might have some clutch news for ROC members very soon.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Once you're through this lot, your mind will turn to bracing and brake upgrades....but the standard package is pretty decent all things considered.

[Tem]

Oil cooler.  s8) s8)

Think about Ekonas #5 though, if you're already thinking about more power. (why else would you want a boost controller?) PE is a good basic kit for small power, but you won't get much more out of it, even if you keep upping the boost.  s:? :? s:?

[philster_d]

The public are getting wiser to the car.

I was asked "is it a turbo" for the first time ever by a normal person yesterday outside halfords.

[spit]

a normal person ...  ?
outside halfords ...  ?

That's a first  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[SimonC_Here]

a normal person ...  ?
outside halfords ...  ?

That's a first  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Well Phil was there....

Actually, as you were.  s:) s:)   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Simon

[Anonymous]

C2 just about the only people doing a turbo for the 2 that I didn't check out.Looks like the best value by a long way.

Q as far as boost controllers are concerned,surely its not as easy as just turning up the boost for more power????won't the engine run lean???wouldn't you have to have different maps for different levels of boost or is it the case that theres a fairly wide range over which you can increase bost without increasing fuelling and not knacker you're engine???

[Anonymous]

The map will be tuned for different boost levels already. Turn the boost up and the e-manage sees this and uses the appropriate map cells. No need for a new map just 1 that is tuned through different psi.

Don't get the PE. I loved it and it can put out good power, but it's too much hassle and money to put a complete kit together when there is other complete options out there.

[Anonymous]

The map will be tuned for different boost levels already. Turn the boost up and the e-manage sees this and uses the appropriate map cells. No need for a new map just 1 that is tuned through different psi.

This is true only if the Emanage pressure sensor is used. Thats a $USD140 option and a completly different tune. By default, the emanage uses a MAF based setup and every 2-3psi increase will require a tweak to the injector map to increase fueling. I've been changing maps generally twice a year. During the fall& winter I lower teh boost (6-8psi) because I'm traction limited by weather. During the summer I been running 10-12psi. Im tired of this and am going with the pressure sensor option.

The stock 260cc injectors will be done at 4.5psi. You should not run the PE kit any higher than that.

The Bosch 380's that Hassproturbo sells are maxed out at 10psi but you will need a piggy-back to control them. Carefull about going this route with the stock exhaust and main cat. Somewhere around 190whp folks have reported melting the main cat down. With a GT28R that level is achieved around 7psi and with the PE1215s around 8psi.

If you THINK you might want more than ~5psi of power dont get the PE kit. The money you spend making it safe & reliable will be equal to or greater than a C2 kit.

Also, the stock exhaust is restrictive and the PE wastegate is sized for it. If you have a free flowing aftermarket exhaust then the PE WG will have to be ported or you will get boost creep. Boost creep is engine blowing bad because it happens at WOT and you run out of fuel.

[Anonymous]

This is true only if the Emanage pressure sensor is used. Thats a $USD140 option and a completly different tune. By default, the emanage uses a MAF based setup and every 2-3psi increase will require a tweak to the injector map to increase fueling. I've been changing maps generally twice a year. During the fall& winter I lower the boost (6-8psi) because I'm traction limited by weather. During the summer I been running 10-12psi. I'm tired of this and am going with the pressure sensor option.

I was talking about the tune that C2 would of put on the e-manage which is for a range of psi. The tune between using the pressure sensor and the MAF wasn't any different at all when i tuned mine,the pressure sensor is only really needed if you go out of the limits of the MAF. In all my years turbo'd i never had to touch the maps just reset the stock ECU, can't see why you need 2maps when the cell maps are in relation to the amount of boost, it will only use the cells when it needs to.

The stock 260cc injectors will be done at 4.5psi. You should not run the PE kit any higher than that.

Not at all. I ran 6.5psi from day1 and the duty was near it's max at 75-80%. 7-7.5psi was their limit.Don't forget the PE has a RRFPR.

If you THINK you might want more than ~5psi of power dont get the PE kit. The money you spend making it safe & reliable will be equal to or greater than a C2 kit..

I ran 6.5psi for over a year non intercooled, stock injectors, not 1 problem.Then 12psi with WI and GTS injectors, I agree though the C2 is the way i would go.

[Anonymous]

I was talking about the tune that C2 would of put on the e-manage which is for a range of psi.

Sorry, absent the pressure sensor, I cant agree with you on this point at all. Without it, the  E-manage is ignorant of boost levels. In your setup, the RRFPR is boost referenced and THATS providing the extra fueling. With stock fuel pressure, MAF based tunes are only flexible within a 3-4psi range.
I cannot run a 7psi map under 12psi of boost without going dangerously lean.

The tune between using the pressure sensor and the MAF wasn't any different at all when i tuned mine.

The GSC file for boost and MAF referenced tunes are most certainly not the same. The scale and the cell values are different for the same boost level. You cant just take a MAF based file and change the scale to Kpa or psi either.

...the pressure sensor is only really needed if you go out of the limits of the MAF.

I used to believe this as well but its simply not true. What you do get is a static tune but if one isnt changing elevations drastically and ambient temps are relatively stable when running flat out then it doesnt matter. I've been running with incoming MAF volts of 5.0 for several months now. AFR's are still controllable (richer or leaner) via the emanage injector map up until the limits of the actual injectors themselves.According to my WB the 380's appear to go static around ~6100rpm at 12psi even though the Emanage log reports them at 100% at 5500rpm at 9psi. In my setup, the MAF voltage hits 5.0 at 9psi at 5500rpm too.

In all my years turbo'd i never had to touch the maps just reset the stock ECU, can't see why you need 2maps when the cell maps are in relation to the amount of boost, it will only use the cells when it needs to.

If the MAF is in a 3" tube then DC will be 80-90% at 10psi. It has NOTHING to do with the amount of boost. Under boost, the VOLUMN of air increases but the MASS does not. Thats why its not called a Volumn Air Sensor. A MAF and a VAF operate on different principles. A MAF sensro is oblivious to boost. I can run a 4th gear WOT 5psi maptrace and hit the same cells at the same RPM in the INJ map as I do at 12psi. The MAF voltage is the same regardless of boost levels.

Reseting the ECU to reset fuel trims will not affect open-loop fueling one iota. Partial throttle, yes. When I change the tune I reset the ECU. Othereise I leave it alone for months at a time.

The stock 260cc injectors will be done at 4.5psi. You should not run the PE kit any higher than that.

Not at all. I ran 6.5psi from day1 and the duty was near it's max at 75-80%. 7-7.5psi was their limit.Don't forget the PE has a RRFPR.

Yes, your right. Ihad forgotten about the RRFPR in the PE kit. It will extend the 260's as will methanol but not water injection.

The Emanage logs injector DC based on the incoming MAF voltage it sees. You could have 1000cc injectors but if the MAF is in a 2.5"ID pipe it will report 5v at ~9psi and the Emanage will dutifully and erroneously report DC as being 100% because thats all it can possibly be.

[Anonymous]

I just want to add that I do not claim to know everything there is to know about turbos and the emanage blue.  In fact, if its not a 1ZZ running under an E-manage BLUE I can barely speak in much more than the grossest generalities.

I would especially like to be proven wrong that MAP and MAF e-manage files can be identical other than scale. As the 630's and the Greddy pressure sensor just arrived.

Also, I know almost nothing about the Ultimate other than to wait a little longer before getting one.

Thanks

Bill

[spit]

I bow to your knowledge and observations Bill. Whatever your reservations you still know a lot more than me   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  I'm not familiar with the technicalities, or with the ability to log/maptrace. But I can offer a couple of observations on the C2 that I'd welcome your comments on .....

- The basic C2 map (airflow and injector only - no ignition map or pressure reference) seems to have me running nicely at any boost level between wastegate actuator pressure and 12psi.

- And yet you'll recall that I've leaned Philster's map out quite considerably - 10% across the board and some quite vicious additional airflow adjusts up to 4k revs .... consensus over here is that this reflects an inherent difference between UK and J-SPec ECUs (as its the only difference!). All I have to go on is that my AFR is now where it should be on- and off-boost.

- The 380 injectors don't appear to be struggling to keep up at 12psi - at least not according to AFR readings and performance. EGT is not much higher at uber-boost than it was at 5psi.

Now you've got me thinking that I need to add pressure reference to the Emanage, knock the boost down a bit and get a bespoke mapping for the car  s:? :? s:?  .... but if its performing OK what are the signs to tell me that I need to go down this route?

Finally, just a point about the EM pressure sensor. If you go with the Greddy electronic boost gauges (well, the warning series for definate), you've already got a pressure sensor that can be harnessed into the EM. This makes it a less expensive option than you've quoted above.

[Anonymous]

Same map for 5 to 12psi. NO pressure sensor, no RRFPR and stock fuel pump? Something else has to be compensating.

I simply cant do that on my setup.

I wonder if GAS is using the AIR map to add fuel?

[Anonymous]

I see it. Gas IS adding fuel based on AIR flow.

Thats a different approach.

[Anonymous]

- The basic C2 map (airflow and injector only - no ignition map

He doesnt need boost retard because the AIR map is causing the ecu to see a higher load and its taking away the timing itself. That also simplifies the installation. This is good to know because I'm running stock timing as well, zero'd out the IGN map.
But I had to use methanol to do it. Next step is to starting adding more timing in to run more advanced than stock.

The 380 injectors don't appear to be struggling to keep up at 12psi - at least not according to AFR readings and performance.

It appears to me to be maxed at here. I know Jay doesnt recommend more than 9psi on the 380's w/o W/I.

.... but if its performing OK what are the signs to tell me that I need to go down this route?

The need for more power?

[spit]

It surprises me too! On the whole I've found it to be a very forgiving setup.

I'm wondering if the J-Spec ECU differences are helping keep some sort of order? (eg is the knock control different? I dunno. But the UK ECU doesn't like my adjusted map one little bit!).

[Anonymous]

Are you still using .90 for the injector correction factor or something else?

[Anonymous]

It surprises me too! On the whole I've found it to be a very forgiving setup.

I'm wondering if the J-Spec ECU differences are helping keep some sort of order? (eg is the knock control different? I dunno. But the UK ECU doesn't like my adjusted map one little bit!).

The C2 tune goes to 8000rpm and uses  Toyota HW-MAF#2 - Hass goes to 7k and uses a type 3.

Do you have a make and part# for the C2 injectors? Are they really 380's?

Is the EurosSpec fuel pressure different? I cant imagine it would be.


Thanks

[kanujunkie]

i'm  useing MWR 380's on mine Bill

[Anonymous]

Sorry, absent the pressure sensor, I cant agree with you on this point at all. Without it, the  E-manage is ignorant of boost levels. In your setup, the RRFPR is boost referenced and THATS providing the extra fueling. With stock fuel pressure, MAF based tunes are only flexible within a 3-4psi range.
I cannot run a 7psi map under 12psi of boost with going dangerously lean.

That is so wrong. The RRFPR did help the injectors but nothing to do with the extra fueling needed needed that was the tune. The emanage doesn't see the boost but the extra air volume over the MAF on boost. This equates to the same map cells as the pressure sensor tells the EM. I know i had both and ran a map trace on my laptop testing the map on boost, the trace left was identical. This is in the same size pipe as stock ONLY.

The GSC file for boost and MAF referenced tunes are most certainly not the same. The scale and the cell values are different for the same boost level. You cant just take a MAF based file and change the scale to Kpa or psi either.

The scale values are different but when you change between the 2 input choices they change to the value that is the same level as the other.

I used to believe this as well but its simply not true. What you do get is a static tune but if one isnt changing elevations drastically and ambient temps are relatively stable when running flat out then it doesnt matter. I've been running with incoming MAF volts of 5.0 for several months now. AFR's are still controllable (richer or leaner) via the emanage injector map up until the limits of the actual injectors themselves.According to my WB the 380's appear to go static around ~6100rpm at 12psi even though the Emanage log reports them at 100% at 5500rpm at 9psi. In my setup, the MAF voltage hits 5.0 at 9psi at 5500rpm too.

But it remains still true, you have exceeded your MAF limit so it is time for the pressure sensor. On the PE at 12psi it didn't, so my statement isn't "simply not true".

This could just go on and on. I had the emanage on my setup nearly 4years ago, and when i did it i was on my own, no-one else in this country had 1 on a turbo'd 2 and only a couple on SC. I learnt alot about the PE setup which is what we are talking about here. No increased pipe diameters, no relocated MAF's. I am telling what i know about this to clarify what you actually would need if someone were silly enough to go the PE route, and disperse the myths that are still around like the maxed out inj at 4.5psi etc.

You have learnt alot in your year of being turbo'd Bill and i like to hear your points but what i have said is from my experience and testing, please don't just say they are wrong.

Ste, i had a J-Spec and i put my maps onto Perrys UK spec and installed my WB in, we never had to alter the map at all.

[markiii]

i'm  useing MWR 380's on mine Bill

suppllied by C2 so we assume they are identical to Ste's

[spit]

Yep, mine came direct from MWR too. No written documentation or part numbers with them, but both C2 and MWR have confirmed that they're 380s. Descriptively they're white, non-stock clips, and a double-width groove for the O-ring.

No idea why these maps need to be different between J-Spec and UK-spec  s:? :? s:?  The difference is too great to be down to incorrect O2 calibration (and both my NB and WB would need to be equally wrong for that!). The fact that your mapping seems compatible, Ian, suggests that its down to the difference between PE and C2 setup - ie FPR vs Injectors?

  s:? :? s:?  <= Me

(Sorry kaiser, it seems like we're drifting off-topic a little, but this is also something that needs to be thrashed out when going turbo  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  )