Different Approaches to E-manage Turbo Tuning

[Anonymous]

The objective of an ideal tune is to run the right combination of air,fuel and timing at every load point that an engine can reach in the environment in which operates. For example, a street tune will emphasis driveability and power-under-the-curve while a race-tune will maximize power at WOT, idle be dmaned.

Air,fuel and spark are relative commodities. For each engine and load there is only one combination that produces the best power whether that be measured as best torque (rich or lean), ET's or calculated HP.

As most know, there are multiple ways to accomplish thus.

I started this thread because there appear to be two fundamentally different approaches to do so with a 1ZZ turbo and the E-manage BLUE. For reference, I'm going to call these the "C2" and the "HPT" methods.

To start this thread on an even footing I'm referring to the otherewise nearly identical kits sold by both.

The Kits
GT28R
380 injectors,
2.5" to 3" full exhaust w/cataytic converter
Stock fuel pressure - No RRFPR - returnless fuel rail.
MAF located after an A/A I/C
HPT does not sell W/I with the base kit. Does C2 require it?

Some of the differences between the two tuning approaches appear to be as follows:

1. How the AIR maps are used to affect fuel and timing. C2 uses it to add fuel under boost and to let the stock ECU manage the ignition timing - HPT does not use this map for boost fuel and prefers to pull timing using the e-manage.

2. Whether or not the same tune can be used for widely different boost levels. Apparently, the C2 tune supports 5-12psi inherently. On the other hand, the HPT injector maps needs more fuel every 3-4psi. I've done map traces of the HPT injector map at various boost levels in the same gear (2,3,4th) and the same cells are hit at the same RPM regardless of boost. For each boost level however, the values in the cells need to be increased with boost to maintain the same AFR. Is it true the C2 INJ map requires no such manual intervention as boost increases?

3. When fuel injectors are maxing out. I've been told C2 supports up to 12psi on the 380's from MWR. HPT recommends only 9 on the Bosch 380's. I've been able to run 12lbs on them but only by leaning out the AFR's to mid-12's followed by a 50/50 W/methanol mix to bring the AFR's back down to 12.0

4. Wheither to implicitly or explicitly retard timing under boost. C2 does not use the ignition harness. This simplifies installation. HPT uses all 3 harnesses and pulls 3-9° of timing under boost.

Unrelated, to the two vendors tuning approach.

MAP vs MAF
When converting from a MAF to a MAP based tune using the Greddy pressure sensor, the only change is to the vertical scale from Air flow volts to Greddy sensor volts. True?
I dont have direct experience with it yet, but its been my,perhaps faulty, understanding its not that simple.

MAF vs Injector DC
In my logs, the emanage is reporting 100% DC at the same point MAF voltage hits 5.0. In my setup (2.5" intake) this occurs at 9psi at 5500-6100 rpm. However, the injectors are not at 100% as I've run up to 11psi with mid-11 AFR w/o methanol. Its my understanding that the consequences of running a maxed out MAF are that the tune becomes static and will not be able to compensate for changes in elevation, temperature or barometric pressure. Furthermore, even if it has gone static it wont matter unless running wide-open ascending rapidly and encountering large temperature differentials such as running Pikes Peak.

Thoughts?

Thanks

[philster_d]

I will be switching to map at some point in the near future andf getting a remap so let me know if theres anything I can do to help along the process.

[spit]

Few answers, but mainly commentary. The short version is "I don't know!"  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Apparently, the C2 tune supports 5-12psi inherently.

The "off-the-record" advice is that the map is safe for daily use up to 8psi. My map is edited from that, but not by a professional tuner  s:oops: :oops: s:oops: . Minor idle and cruising tweaks aside the only change is a reduction in ICR (from 1.1 to 1.0) as I was running too rich across the board with the original C2 map. (Don't forget that C2 uses 380 as its "old injector" reference while HPT uses stock.... although why Phil and Stu are set at 1.1 I don't know)

I've no idea why my edited map holds everything together at 12psi & perhaps need to get it professionally checked out, but there's no bogging or stumble, just bags of grunt! No idea either about any knock/fuelling/etc differences inherent in the J-Spec ECU, so I think we may need to consider what they might be - if any - and what their implications are on mapping before the other UK guys turn their knobs up!

Is it true the C2 INJ map requires no such manual intervention as boost increases?

HPT recommends only 9 on the Bosch 380's. I've been able to run 12lbs on them but only by leaning out the AFR's to mid-12's followed by a 50/50 W/methanol mix to bring the AFR's back down to 12.0

I'll do a few runs at different psi settings and see where the AFR sits when I hit max boost. I've been led to believe that AFR12.5 under boost is safe. Is this not true?

I'll be following this with interest, as I have to decide whether to invest in a professional tune (where I'll add IGN harness and MAP feed) - although quite honestly I'm not sure how a pro-tune could get any more power out of this little engine. Might have a chat with my local tuner, get a dyno done and bring it back here before committing to a re-map.

A J-spec compatible ECU diagnostic tool would be very handy to read intake temps etc. to inform this debate, although I've had no CELs with the current setup.

(BTW, no W/I with C2 either)

Ste

[Anonymous]

Too be fair to anyone who stumbles across this thread, I should mention that I've got a replacement engine on order so if this one blows I only hope its not too far from civilization. Otherwise, I'm unconcerned.

Turboconversions are risky. Running higher boost than the kit makers themselves recomend is truly speculative. Doing so with my level of knowledge surely borders on folly.  s:) s:)  

I will be switching to map at some point in the near future andf getting a remap so let me know if theres anything I can do to help along the process.

I've only just received the pressure sensor and 630's. I'll try the sensor by itself with the 380's and not change anything else hardware or tunewise except for the scale on the INJ and IGN maps. It will be very nice if its a direct translation as mr-s-turbo claims.

(Don't forget that C2 uses 380 as its "old injector" reference while HPT uses stock.... although why Phil and Stu are set at 1.1 I don't know)

Thanks for bringing that up. Its got to be important.I dont know what to make of it.  The fact that C2 sets the correctionfactor to 380/420 = .90 just throws me for a loop. The secret is in the AIR map?

HPT sets it at 260/410 = .63 and with the new injectors - 260/630 = .40

I've been led to believe that AFR12.5 under boost is safe. Is this not true?

It depends on the intake temperatures. If fuel is needed  to cool combustion to prevent detonation then no its not OK.

Having said that, I believe ~12.5 non-intercooled is probably OK in this engine below ~7psi and under 26°C ambient.  Above  ~8lbs, some form of charge cooling would be a very good idea. I did a run at ~12.5 on gasoline at 12psi and 31°C before adding W/A injection and it was flat. Intakes temps werre 60°C. Timing was being pulled . What concerns me the most about going for more power with a MAF based tune on a stock engine is its supposed 'instability'.

A J-spec compatible ECU diagnostic tool would be very handy to read intake temps

I've been using a PALM m100 running the pocketlogger software for several years. Pretty handy. Even though my MAF is now after the I/C, its still not getting the correct intake temps because its taking them before the W/M nozzle. That and its been 40C here and my rear tires are bald.

Might have a chat with my local tuner, get a dyno done and bring it back here before committing to a re-map.

Good idea. Find out what its putting down currently and if its knocking at all.My opinion is that if WHP is above ~240 its probably a good place to stop with stock internals.

Are most turbo-2's over there running W/I and an I/C?

Cheers

[spit]

Turboconversions are risky. Running higher boost than the kit makers themselves recomend is truly speculative. Doing so with my level of knowledge surely borders on folly.  s:) s:)

I'm way beyond folly then!   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  *turns the boost down again*

The fact that C2 sets the correctionfactor to 380/420 = .90 just throws me for a loop. The secret is in the AIR map?

Phil's map is 1.1 (420/380, not the other way round). This doesn't work for me at all - way too rich. I brought the ratio back down to 1.0 and it is fine.

My opinion is that if WHP is above ~240 its probably a good place to stop with stock internals.

*turns boost down even more*

Are most turbo-2's over there running W/I and an I/C?

W/I no, I/C yes.

[markiii]

(Don't forget that C2 uses 380 as its "old injector" reference while HPT uses stock.... although why Phil and Stu are set at 1.1 I don't know) Thanks for bringing that up. Its got to be important.I dont know what to make of it.  The fact that C2 sets the correctionfactor to 380/420 = .90 just throws me for a loop. The secret is in the AIR map?

HPT sets it at 260/410 = .63 and with the new injectors - 260/630 = .40

At teh risk of stating teh obvious

Injector correction is intended to simply allow you to run bigger injectors and have teh emanage realise that and adjust their DC for off boost scenarios

Which means teh Hass way of doing things is correct by the book.

Gas at C2 is therefore manipulating this in a way Greddy never intended for his own purposes.

effectively forcing more fuelling across tthe map by fooling the emanage. This could be a way of avoiding Det when not using teh emanage to retard timing? thoughts?


now teh complication I don't get with either approach.

The ignition harness is a an intercept, i.e the wires are cut and teh emanage can fully adjust the ignition timing, by taking in teh old signal and giving out it's own.

The injector wires in contrast are splices. Meaning that the emanage can add DC but surely can't subtract it. So how does it physically manage to reduce DC in response to teh injector correction values mentioned above?

unless of coure teh injectors are triggered low, i.e grounding teh wire causes solenoid operation? in which case it could force the line high effectively overding teh stock ECU even with a splice connection? thoughts?

Ref difference between Phils map and Ste's. Phils is running teh injector harness because he bought it, did Gas tune for it? If someone compares teh 2 Maps are their ignition correction tables in Phils?

[spit]

re. your last para - I assume you mean that Phil bought the IGN harness Mark? The copy of Phil's map that I have is just Airflow and Injector. No IGN selected in parameters and certainly no map to retard timing.

re. the first point. I wasn't aware that the correction ratio was just an off-boost adjustment?   s:? :? s:?  My uninformed but logical brain thought that it ups or downs the DC by the ratio set across the board. Sort of a "quick fix" for those who are mapped up and then change their injectors.

As for the difference in ICF's between HPT and C2, I also thought this was more fundamental. Gas has a stack of maps from his Celica 380 work which therefore don't need a correction factor if he uses them as a starting point to map the '2. Perhaps Jay first mapped on stock injectors and then (therefore) brought the ratio down below 1 to reflect the bigger injectors.

This is all speculation of course unless Gas and/or Jay confirm it.....but I don't think the function of the ICF is anything more cute than a setup tool.

Happy to have my ignorance corrected  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  In the meantime boost is down to stock until we can thrash out the safety of the earlier setting....although I have to say it felt stonkingly solid and blisteringly fast. Missing it already  s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

[Anonymous]

Injector correction is intended to simply allow you to run bigger injectors and have the emanage realise that and adjust their DC for off boost scenarios Which means the Hass way of doing things is correct by the book.

This was my understanding but apparently C2 has found another approach.

The ignition harness is a an intercept, i.e the wires are cut and the emanage can fully adjust the ignition timing, by taking in the old signal and giving out it's own.

Yes, but unlike the Ultimate, the BLUE does not tap the crank or cam position signals. Its  calculating the timing on-the-fly. Hopefully, its cpu processing cycles are significantly faster than events occuring in the combustion chamber. This works because an engine typically operates in a linear pattern. It can be made to emulate a non-linear system tho. Just randomly stab the gas pedal as your going down the road. If that were the normal mode of operation then predicting ignition timing in order to advance it would be impossible and meaningless.

The injector wires in contrast are splices. Meaning that the emanage can add DC but surely can't subtract it. So how does it physically manage to reduce DC in response to the injector correction values mentioned above?

It uses the MAF out signal.
The MAF volts (plus TPS and RPM)  are what the stock ECU uses to calculate load.

A simplistic way to calculate load is theoretical airflow / actual airflow.
The ECU then looks up the corresponding values for fuel and timing.

Light load = less fuel & more timing, higher load = more fuel with less timing (boost retard).

This relationship is what I think C2 is taking advantage of to avoid the IGN harness. The timing on these cars is pretty flexible. I've seen values on mine ranging from 5° advanced at cold start to 45° advanced during 5th-gear-3000rpm cruise. C2 may also be taking advantage of the pent-roof, 4-valve, center-plug, 360°-tapered-quench head design makes the 1ZZ detonation resistant. HPT is going more of an old-school way by assuming additional timing should be taking out under boost regardless of engine design. But I'm totally guessing now.

Where the ECU starts fighting with the Emanage is when these "MAF adjustments"  are so large that LongTermFuelTrim's are affected. These are visible on the OBDII port. STFT and LTFT should ideally each be in the single digits. My STFT's are usually less than 10 but the LTFT have been as high as 19. When the sum of the two exceeds 38 a system too rich -38  or too lean +38 DTC is stored and the CEL comes on. These get cleared when the battry is disconnected. Timing has no adaptive learning trims.

So, the Emanage isnt directly taking away fuel itself. The stock ECU is, based on the tweaked MAF signal its getting from the AIR map.

Or so I currently think  s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

Perhaps Jay first mapped on stock injectors ...

I dont think so. He went with the 380's almost right away.  The stock ECU lookup tables are calibrated for 260cc injectors fom the factory so that has to be the starting. Or so I thought.

In the meantime boost is down to stock until we can thrash out the safety of the earlier setting...

Your kidding, you've got a WB.
Go find a non-loading dyno and see where its at.
I know of at least three spyderchatter's who ran close to or over 300whp on stock internals. Morris bent a rod at 291whp, carvers piston cracked in two at 16.5psi plus a 50shot and Gino G. claims to be running 15+psi with W/I on a track dedicated car. They are all running larger injectors and fuel pumps to get there.

So unless you run  lean or get some heavy detonation I dont think its possible to exceed the strength of the stock internals with stock fuel and 380's. I do think 240-250whp is about it on stock internals for a daily driver in the longer term because the upper rod bearings get hammered out over time.

Perhaps, Bing can chime in and explain how he started at 380/420 and ended up with 420/380 w/o revealing any secrets.  s8) s8)

[kanujunkie]

i've got to be honest i'm a complete novice to all of this and my knowledge is so basic that i'm not going to embarress myself on this thread. So i'm going to contact Gas at C2 and get him to pitch in  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[markiii]

re. your last para - I assume you mean that Phil bought the IGN harness Mark?

correct

As for the difference in ICF's between HPT and C2, I also thought this was more fundamental. Gas has a stack of maps from his Celica 380 work which therefore don't need a correction factor if he uses them as a starting point to map the '2. Perhaps Jay first mapped on stock injectors and then (therefore) brought the ratio down below 1 to reflect the bigger injectors.

stock Celica injectors are 290 or maybe 330 but definately not 380

[kanujunkie]

e-mail sent to Gas

Mark, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the wireing harness that i've got have the ign harness built into it?

[markiii]

e-mail sent to Gas

Mark, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the wireing harness that i've got have the ign harness built into it?

yep same harness as Phils

hence why I was wondering if thats why his Map works on yours but not so good on Ste's who doesn't have it

[Anonymous]

I've only skim read so sorry if this is already been said.

The correction factor on the EM applies a percentage to the whole A/F map not to the INJ map.This applies to the whole map so it doesn't matter if it's on or off boost. It cannot take DC away from the injectors it can just add or subtract more air. When you change a cell figure it is basically already doing an alteration in that cell via the correction factor then it adds/subtracts what you enter in aswell.

GTS injectors are 330cc.

MWR and then myself never used the A/F map it is just the INJ and IGN. I never found the A/F map to be that easy to use, and adding fuel in the INJ map was the easiest way. I personaly would only use the A/F map to take fuel out and the INJ to put in.

Will join in more later.

[spit]

i've got to be honest i'm a complete novice to all of this and my knowledge is so basic that i'm not going to embarress myself on this thread.

I'm also going to shut up for a bit. Its clear that I'm working on assumptions about why my setup works that don't match the reality. Ho-hum!

[kanujunkie]

I'm also going to shut up for a bit. Its clear that I'm working on assumptions about why my setup works that don't match the reality. Ho-hum!

assumptions aside, your knowledge of how it works is really good, for goodness sake your actually tuning it yourself on the road, which is more than the rest of us in the UK

[Anonymous]

Hi,
I just had a quick look on the thread to comment as been invitated.

I love the advantage to use AF and inj map together. Why is that is simple. 1 map would be related with MAF voltage and the other is by TPS%. If you have just 1 map like onthe PFC it is very hard to match many kind of different use of the car. I mean slow street cruising, sporty driving and "racing". Many numbers are not true on only 1 map in a different driving style. Hard to explain without being present in a car and real time.
I do not use the ignition timing harness as at 6 psi (nice AFR) we noticed the factory ECU does retard enough not to have knocking. I do trust the stock ECU security system in this case. BTW adding an ignition harness cannot hurt and not expensive. I just dont see the need on a 6psi setup.

We never wanted to go for highest numbers on st1 kits, as we think the most important to have a rliable car on the everyday use. I dont say not to go over 6psi on the 1zzfe ( as many tried and had no problems with proper tune even at 11psi) just consider risk is getting higher and higher!!!

Well If you like a street car then dont risk and stay as it was designed and tested by the manufacturer, if you want more dont spare money on internals and better ECU setup as well.

Did I answer anything?  s:) s:)

[Anonymous]

Did I answer anything?  s:) s:)

Thanks. That answers the ignition harness question.

Considering the 260's the car comes with, would you say using an injection correction factor of .90 on the 1ZZ is an approach that most would not take? Its seems counter-intuitive and pretty confusing especially if someone were to install even larger injectors later on.

[Anonymous]

Well I never use the injector change as is, I mean never enter 280cc changed to 380cc. I use it just as a factor to move the inj map upper or lower to enrich the whole map or to lean it. The basic reason  is to keep the mid map at non changed area and rather take petrol off from the non boosted area and give not extremly more in the boosted area.
Example. If I use the correct injector sizes then I would be able to start from 0 and just add petrol up to 40. I rather give more in the injectro factor and start on the map from -20 and add when needed 20 when it is needed. This numbers are just numbers but the relation in them may show you what I mean. I allways like to start from being rich.
whit the 380cc injectors my correction factor is not 0.9 but 1.2 and taking off from the MAF map numbers. Somehow it does work better to me.  s:) s:)
Whit my 550cc injectors I still used a 0.6-0.7 factor.
But anyway you can use your style as you want as you can reach a nice map at least 3 different ways on  the greddy and the final AFR results would be the same.

[markiii]

thanks Gas thats pretty much what I speculated you'd done

nice idea

you said

If I use the correct injector sizes then I would be able to start from 0 and just add petrol up to 40. I rather give more in the injectro factor and start on the map from -20 and add when needed 20 when it is needed

could you wlaborate on why you feel that way?

[kanujunkie]

Cheers for the help Gas, really appreciate you taking the time to come over here

[Anonymous]

Cheers mates  s:) s:)

1 more thing to add to our turboed cars. The greddy injector factor would work great on a car that has a factory setup and only an injector has been changed. What we users allways forget that we DID NOT only change injectros but we have a full new setup running under the hood. So once you tuned your car to a 380cc injectors and have a correct map then whatever factor you have you can use that as (factor)*(new injector size)/(old injector size). so it works in this case.

[Anonymous]

OK! I've certainly learned from C2's posts! Thanks!

The main lesson for me is that its possible, advantagous even,  to be able to use different approaches to the same issue and arrive at good solutions either way using the E-manage.

This is good and bad.
Good because it allows the tuner some flexibility & creativity.  Bad because theres is no single "right way" to tune which makes it easier for folks to get crossed up and confused. Considering what we're talking about, that can be blown-engine-merging-in-traffic bad.

Anyway, here's where I think we are with the original 4 questions.

#1 & 2 The way the AIR map is used for fuel, timing and boost My incomplete understand is, C2 uses a sliding window with an artifical floor and ceiling that allows the AIR map to work in conjunction with the INJ map to create a boost-referenced tune. All the while keeping fuel trims in check by not making large partial-throttle off-boost adjustments. The side-benefit is the end-user doesnt have to change the fueling as boost rises.
Hey C2 - Heres a question
It seems to me the drawback to this approach (I really not sure here) is if the MAF signal ever maxes out the tune goes static because the AIR and INJ maps arent related to one another except by the way C2  is having them BOTH adding fuel under boost. Even though the stock ECU may still be seeing leass then 5v the AIR/INJ maps have run off the end. If the C2 kits uses a 2.5" ID intake pipe and folks are running over 10psi with at least 12.5 or lower AFR's than I'm wrong. If the MAF sits in a 3"pipe it will never hit 5v. So it seems like a none-issue.


Whereas, HPT using a more traditional linear method, creates maps that arent as "smart" but are easier to understand without a scanntool and lots of dyno time. The side-benefit here is its  easier for the enduser to make adjustments confidently.

I seriously doubt either one of these guys intended for these side-benfefits. Its just a difference in the way they see things. Ever seen code written to Hungarian notation?

#3 Are the 380's maxed out at 12psi? I framed this question incorrectly, sorry  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  Injectors are rated by the amount of power they'll support and that has nothing to do with boost level. Just because two engines are seeing 12psi doesnt mean they're making the same power.
I could very well be out of DC at 11.5psi whereas someone else might not.

Whether to implicitly or explicitly retard timing under boost I think C2 explained this pretty clearly.

Converting to MAP from a MAF
I asked Jay, and the maps MIGHT line up by sheer chance but, generally, they do not. Whether this is a drawback of his "traditional linear" tuning method or not - I dont know. He says the cells accessed and the values they contain become increasingly different as each map approaches WOT.
So, it sounds like simply changing the vertical axis from maf volts to pressure volts might produce a working map that may require further tuning.

MAF vs Injector DC The E-manage blue isnt capable of discerning true injector DC. Its strictly based off of the maximum possible MAF voltage.

Additionally, the injector clips & pins used on the Bosch 380's are compatible with the Motoron 630's.  No rewiriing needed. Yes, I know nobody asked. Im just saying 'cause I just got em.  s8) s8)

[markiii]

a couple more observations to throw into the mix

C2 do use a 2.5" diameter pipe


the UK Hass guys all wemt for the pressure sensor option. All were tuned by Thor. These support boost settings from 5psi (wastegate) to 10PSI (they may go higher but the profec was only configured to support 10)

[Anonymous]

C2 do use a 2.5" diameter pipe

Are any running over 10psi? with a WB?

the UK Hass guys all wemt for the pressure sensor option. All were tuned by Thor. These support boost settings from 5psi (wastegate) to 10PSI (they may go higher but the profec was only configured to support 10)

My current conundrum is whether to install the pressure sensor and the 680's together
OR
get the sensor working with the 380's first
OR
swap in the 680's and MAF tune for them.