2ZZ vs. Turbos vs. Superchargers

[Ernie Ball]

For those wanting power upgrades over here in Europe, recent developments mean that turbos are no longer the only game in town.  Kaiser is going to have a Rotrex SC put in his car by TTS this week, Prolex is developing a Rotrex SC solution and Rogue Systems are apparently gearing up to offer a 2ZZ upgrade.

Given this, I thought it would be worthwhile to start a thread to discuss the relative merits of each.

For example, the bhp figures for each are roughly this:

2ZZ: 190bhp
1ZZ plus turbo: 180-250bhp (anyone getting more than 250?), depending on the turbo.
1ZZ plus SC: ~200bhp-?

But of course bhp doesn't tell the whole story.  For one thing, if I understand correctly, the 2ZZ, like the engine in the Honda S2000, has a much steeper torque curve and hits its torque peak very high in the range.  The TTE turbo, by contrast, has a relatively flat torque curve and a torque peak at around 4000rpm (IIRC).

I'm hardly an expert in any of this, but I'm wondering what the real experts here think about these solutions and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

[markiii]

ok first comments

the TTS install is I beleive Prolex's?

the 2zz curve is pretty much identical to teh 1zz until lift kicks in, from that point you have anotehr 50bhp to play with

[Tem]

2ZZ: 190bhp
1ZZ plus turbo: 180-250bhp (anyone getting more than 250?), depending on the turbo.
1ZZ plus SC: ~200bhp-?

Many are getting +250whp from turbos on a stock engine. After a buildup, sky's the limit. SC can also get beyond that 250whp limit, please read the WEB3.0's SC project on Spyderchat.  s;) s;)

But generally, say you have 200hp on all engines. The 2ZZ is very hard to drive. You need to keep it in the lift all the time or the power will just fall off. You really need to keep your eye on the tacho all the time and time your shifts (both ways) to keep it on power. That's stock though and you can make the lift kick in earlier, which makes it easier to keep on lift, but you still have nothing down there.

Turbo has huge power down low when the boost starts to come in. You can basically cruise around a track on one gear, just keeping the revs above 4k or so and follow a 2ZZ without any issues. The torque feels great. But up the power to 300ish and you'll just keep breaking the tyres loose everytime the boost comes on. On a corner that is. On a straight line you get grip from 2nd on and then it's just goooooooooooooooooo.

SC is a mixture of the two above. You can have same top end as turbo, but with less torque down below. Except VERY low, where SC is better, it'll generally make boost from idle. Except Rotrex, which is basically just a belt driver turbo anyway. These have a funny powerband, at least if you're used to turbo. It doesn't ever really kick in, but just keeps on going. The boost raises with the revs, so you have to keep the revs high to get going, but it's not as picky as a 2ZZ, if you accidentally let the revs lower than you should. There's still plenty of power.


If you're not happy with 200hp, 2ZZ will get very expensive. Turbo and SC can give you 300hp just as easily as 200hp, just pick the right kit for that. Both can give you enough power to blow the stock engine, so that's your limit with them. Don't get me wrong, 2ZZ is a great engine, but only if you're happy with what it has.

[red_leicester]

Nice write-up Tem.


If it was me (which it isn't   s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  ) I would go TTET Turbo I think, but then I'm a wuss, too worried about damage further on down the line costing £££.  As for 2ZZ I think I'd probably chop in the 2 for an S2000 instead.

Dave(Prolex)'s SC kit looks really interesting though, look forward to see how that turns out.

[Anonymous]

Yep agree nice write up Tem.

The two areas I'm interested in and certainly welcome other peoples thoughts are heat generation and to some extent lag.

Thinking about it SC is a great compromise, hardly any lag and the biggy no additional heat generation, basically because from what I understand you do not alter the exhaust manifold - I stand to be corrected of course.

In the summer that has to be an advantage, certainly from your engine bay point of veiw. I know you are still compressing the same temp ambient air but surely keeping the temp down in the engine bay is going to help.

The next question is would I buy one of the three alternatives, probably not - why - I think, price for one, value of the car in the long term - no return which has been proven on a couple of occasions recentlyand finally reliability still to be proven in the long term.

The 2 is a great car, OK I accept the engine can be a little underpowered, but get the right suspension and say a chip plus exhaust mods you can have more that enough fun or trouble as the case maybe.

Just my thoughts, feel free the fire away.

Thanks
Rob

[Anonymous]

The Rotrex SC thats going on my car is Prolex's baby.TTS are just doing the install.
The SC does have the advantage of not creating the same back pressure in the manifold and hence high EGT's.
From what I've been told the Rotrex SC is very linear,feels almost as if you just have a much bigger more powerful engine. It compliments the cars existing power and torque curves.

[Tem]

Thinking about it SC is a great compromise, hardly any lag and the biggy no additional heat generation, basically because from what I understand you do not alter the exhaust manifold - I stand to be corrected of course.

You're correct. There's no need to touch the exhaust at all. SC just installs on the intake side and is powered by a belt from the engine. It also creates less heat than a turbo. Another great feature of SC is that you can't overboost accidentally. With a turbo you can blow your engine if one hose cracks or opens, after which the wastegate won't open and you might get an instant 50psi or whatever your turbo is capable of.  s:? :? s:?

There is practically no lag, as SC is spinning whenever the engine is running. There are systems that disable the unit when not needed, but even they create boost faster than a turbo. The Rotrex is quite special in this though, it doesn't create boost at very low revs near idle. It just doesn't spin fast enough down there. Just like a turbo at low revs.

In the summer that has to be an advantage, certainly from your engine bay point of veiw. I know you are still compressing the same temp ambient air but surely keeping the temp down in the engine bay is going to help.

Yes, less heat is always a good thing. Especially in our cars, where the engine bay doesn't get huge amounts of fresh air all the time, like most front engined cars do.

And it's not just the engine bay. Most turbos use engine oil and also heat that up.

[Anonymous]

Thanks again Tem - great reponse  s:D s:D  

Rob

[northernalex]

Yeah great discussion there, thanks.

Have to factor into the equation prices too..

1.SC conversion, first one looks like its comming in around the 4K mark?
2.TTE turbo (for example) fully fitted at 4.3K (from SP)
3.Turbo kits 2-4K?
4.2zz engine + ECU + gearbox 1.5-2K (an engine + ancillaries went on ebay last night for 790 pounds!!) + fitting which I have no idea about the cost.

I'm probably well off here?

[Ernie Ball]

Great posts.

Another factor, related to costs: mods to the 1zz that are compatible with each of these upgrades.  For example, someone who has installed a header on their 1ZZ can keep it (if I understand correctly) with the SC but will have to get rid of the header with a turbo or 2ZZ install.  That adds to the cost.  Upgraded 1ZZ clutches and flywheels aren't compatble with the 2ZZ, etc. etc.

Then there's insurance.  Anyone have an idea which is more expensive to insure?  Or do the insurers just go on bhp?

Speaking of which: Kaiser, who are you going to insure your SC with?  I have trouble finding Irish insurance for a stock 1ZZ!

[aaronjb]

Then there's insurance.  Anyone have an idea which is more expensive to insure?  Or do the insurers just go on bhp?

Depends on the insurer - going back a few years certainly, engine swaps were a lot harder to insure than things that simply added bhp..

Could be different now, and specialist insurers like Flux can usually insure anything (obviously it's harder for you folks in Ireland as you're limited to who will insure you at all)

[Anonymous]

As far as insurance goes I'll cross that bridge when i've burnt it.  s:? :? s:?  
Irish insurance companies.....there's very little competition as the market is small and they take you for every penny you have.  s:x :x s:x  

As far as bhp goes when I had a brief chat with TTS they quoted me 220bhp intercooled (they also quoted 200 non intercooled but thats too scary to think about) Now I forgot to clarify at the time whether that was at the wheels or fly but at 1bar i.e. 14.75 psi I'm thinking wheels??

Either way,tyre shreddingly good fun  s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

[dieamond]

I went 2ZZ and don't regret it

This is really great fun, even if not the quickest, the sound of the 2ZZ at 8000RPM+ beats everything

as said, a 2ZZ swap is in the 2k range, half the cost of a turbo

with the difference, you can further tune the engine, with stroker kit, cams, power fc...

again the fun of a NA engine is very special

[Anonymous]

One also shouldnt fall under the misconception that a supercharger doesnt create extra heat.  True it isnt attached to the exhaust manifold or run by hot exhaust gasses, but it is however spinning at high speeds and as such can create a great deal of heat.

a friend of mine supercharged his Gen 6 Celica GT and the engine bay used to get roasting   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:   consequently I would never now consider any FI option that didnt include an intercooler  (my preference being air/water)

I would probably also add WI if I intended to take it on the track or rag it for extended periods of time. Just to add further safety and a bit more oomph. (mapped without the WI operating) but not if it was just a road car.

Interesting thread this, as the options ARE getting more and more now. (good news!)

Presently I would lean towards the C2 Power kit due to the SC option being unknown and restricted to AC cars only  (not a fan of hard tops on any convertible, so unlikely I would buy an AC version unless the price was particuarly good)

Another option of course is a combination of two ie Stroker + S/C or turbo

times are definately moving forward at quite a pace    s:D s:D    s:D s:D

[Tem]

One also shouldnt fall under the misconception that a supercharger doesnt create extra heat.  True it isnt attached to the exhaust manifold or run by hot exhaust gasses, but it is however spinning at high speeds and as such can create a great deal of heat.

I don't think that the spinning causes any significant heat. But compressing air causes heat, no matter how it's done. So yes, boost always means heat. You just get less of it with a SC than turbo.  s8) s8)

[carl_evs]

If it's not too cheeky you mind me asking what sort of prices people have paid for SC's fitted and/or kits???

[kanujunkie]

well that ones easy Carl, we havn't as there arn't any in the UK yet

have a look in the Prolex forum as he's about to produce the first UK kit, prices are there as well

[grumpy]

I've had a 2zz for a year and a half. If you have a PFC and its well tuned there is no hit when you engage lift. It changes the siund and the power does go up at a faster rate but it won't upset you in a corner. That is if it is tuned well.

I have driven several turbo'd 1zz's as well Hass, PE, and Top Secret. They are nice after they spool up. Depending on the size. The PE I tried was small and spooled at low RPM but toped out at around 210 rwhp according to the owner. The others spooled around 3500 and made 240rwhp- 270 rwhp. After they spooled they were fairly linear in there felt power. No problem in corners. But like Tem said you have to watch the hoses for leaks.

I have driven WEB 3.0's car when it had the 1zz TRD SC. It drove like a larger NA engine. smooth power from 1500 rpm up. Easy to drive. a bit of complication with the water/ meth injection but not much trouble.

I am going to WEB 3.0's this weekend and will probably get a chance to drive his 1zz Rotrex. I rode in it once a month ago but he blew a manifold gasket on the second run or I would have had a chance to drive it. But it felt like a large NA engine after 2500 rpm.

WEB 3.0 has my 2zz Spyder and is installing a Rotrex now. He ahs a water to air heat exchanger and a small intercooler on both th e 1zz and for the 2zz. With the 1zz he has had it up to 283 rwhp but has settled for a more conservative 270 rwhp and is refineing his tune for safety.

It will depend on how you drive your car and where you want your power. I have no problem keeping it mostly in lift on the track or on very curvey roads. Basic street driving it can go in and out of lift but as I said if properly tune you notice the sound differance more than feel the change.

Turbo's are nice but if you get below where they spool and you are on a curve and step on it through the curve they will upset your line. From several owners there is more maintaince and upkeep with them. Also more heat to disapate. You need an intercooler. The turbo has higher potential for maximum power.

Superchargers seem to have very linear power. I would not try one without some kind of intercooling. Keep a spare belt and change it every year and I doubt you will have much trouble after you get a proper tune.

It all depends on your needs/desires/abilities. How and where you drive, street or track? Straight line or curves? How mechaniclly inclined are you? How much time do you have to maintain the power adder(turbo,SC, 2zz)? If not you, your shop? Do you need to pass emissions or inspection? How will your insurance view your project? How much are you willing to spend?

I liked my 2zz but now I can handle it easily so I looked around and talked with WEB 3.0 and decided to go with a Rotrex to add a bit of power. It will be a weekend, track, HPDE, car for road courses. It would not do well for short very technical courses. A 1zz SC would work better.

At least that is my opinion after driveing or owning the various powered Spyders. You have to decide how and where you will use the additional power. Then match it with what you think will be best for that application.

David

[carl_evs]

Ok, cheers...mind was in a bit of a meltdown having been away for 2 weeks and catchin up on all unread posts!!!!!!

Get to pick new car on mon morn when i start new job so am takin the 2 off the road for the cold months... just sounding out a few options while its off the road.

[northernalex]

mm from the sound of all this talk I quite like the sound of the 2zz (with it being cheaper and still fun) so can anyone give any tips of what exactly is needed for the conversion (the basics). And where they can be sourced.  


At the moment i suspect the basics are 2zz engine with ancillaries, ecu, gearbox, exhaust manafold and mounting stuff.. Someone at my work (an engineer) has done engine swaps on elises before and want to have a bash at an mr2 so i would get it done for free  s:) s:)

[markiii]

look for a thread by leeuk ref 2zz, it has all this and more detailed

[Anonymous]

It's at the top of this forum  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[northernalex]

yeah mark3 i saw that and iirc he talks about spending around 5K on the engine + cams etc... sounds like crazy money, when diemond suggested that the cost of a 2zz conversion was around half that of a turbo (4ish K).  I'll re scan it and see if i can work out the basics needed.

[markiii]

depends on wether you tune the engine or not, I think half the price is highly optimistic, 2 3rds maybe, but when you start doing the math, if you buy all the parts to make it easy it's damn close.

[Anonymous]

this is easy...

2zz= safe na power for a fair price

turbo= allot of time and money, but huge power!


but, on a stock 1zz motor, you dont want to go over about 250hp anyway. so is the extra 50 or 60 hp worth all the extra money and time a turbo takes over a 2zz? i think so  s:P s:P  .