Same sized tyres all around

[markiii]

also bear in mind on track you should be giving 100% concentration on the road you rarely do, and when they bite, it's too late.

Not the tyres fault that you're driving too fast and not paying attention   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Blaming the tyres is like blaming a diesel spill for a sudden running out of talent.

How did people ever survive driving an original Lotus Elan?  Front engined, lighter than a MR2, respectable power and 145 section tyres!   Must've been LETHAL!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Come on Juan, you know as well if not better than I the difference in physics between front engined and mid/rear engined,

I drove a mates MK1 MX5 that you could safely hang teh arse out on roundabouts in teh wet and recover it with ease, now if you'd compared it to a Europa thats a different issue.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Whilst I'm not saying it's teh tyres fault persee, they do make it more difficult for an average driver to stay in control, (not saying I'm a driving god either by teh way), what you don't want from a  road car is one that makes you work for it all of time  at teh limits of concentration, it may be fun 10% of teh time, but no-one drives with 100% attention on teh road, and it's precisely there which is why most cars are set up to understeer from teh factory.

[juansolo]

Ooooh, we're getting on to what I consider the one failing of the Mr2 and that is at anything less than stoking it, it's actually quite dull to drive (I'm going to get such a roasting for this here).

Amazing chassis, very capable.  In comparison to the MX-5 I actually thought it was easier to goon as the set up is so good.  But when you're just driving to work, you might as well be in a Fiesta.  I don't know what it is, but it fails to hold your interest when pootling.

This is something that the MX-5 avoids and I have no idea why (and it's why after selling the scoob and westy, I have another MX-5),  it's fun regardless of speed and as such you tend not to lose concetration.  Maybe it's because it's limits are much lower?  I don't know, but in the scheme of things I just don't find myself drifting off in the 5.  The thing with the Mr2 I suspect, is that it's too good and that puts you off guard when pottering.

[roger]

The thing with the Mr2 I suspect is that it's too good!

Yeh, the better suspension, the softer seats, the warmer seats, the better steering, etc etc.  I could nod off in it any day   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[markiii]

actually I'd tend to agree with you, there is something about teh roadster that makes you want to drive it at 10 tenths all teh tim, it never seems happy tootling.

it will but it doesn't have that sparkle when doing so.

[juansolo]

I edited my response to make that statement a little more clear what I was trying to say.

[Anonymous]

I concluded early on the car isn't really suitable for sliding on the road so dont see the tyre issues here being a problem as I dont ever intentionally push for the point of slip.

Also bear in mind, the change in the contact patch is of a size comparable to a ballpoint pen. Tyre pressures, a heavily laden car, the way you actually drive and suspension mods can all make a more significant difference I would imagine!

As Juan says, there has been too much emphasis on tyre width alone which is the original reason which prompted me to reply to this thread.

[Anonymous]

Toyota spent millions on R&D for this car, and decided that it was safest and bestest that it had staggered tyres. That alone says a hell of a lot.


I would argue that a decent driver would go faster round a track on staggered tyres than on same size ones, all else being equal.

[markiii]

I concluded early on the car isn't really suitable for sliding on the road so dont see the tyre issues here being a problem as I dont ever intentionally push for the point of slip.

Also bear in mind, the change in the contact patch is of a size comparable to a ballpoint pen. Tyre pressures, a heavily laden car, the way you actually drive and suspension mods can all make a more significant difference I would imagine!

As Juan says, there has been too much emphasis on tyre width alone which is the original reason which prompted me to reply to this thread.

I'm being picky I know, but actually thats 2 ball point pens, as you've both increased teh front width and reduced the rear  :-) :-) :-)

[Anonymous]

Toyota spent millions on R&D for this car, and decided that it was safest and bestest that it had staggered tyres. That alone says a hell of a lot.

And you go and plonk a turbo on it!  s;) s;)

But seriously, am not saying 195's all round is "best", but the original post in this thread that this was a surefire way to make the car unstable is clearly wrong after so much trouble free running.  Besides, as soon as you make such a fundamental change as the tyre itself the tyre width becomes less important, hence why it seems most people running Advans on here were running reduced front pressures to counteract understeer.

I'm being picky I know, but actually thats 2 ball point pens, as you've both increased the front width and reduced the rear

This is a very good point, as I had not realised the fronts should be 185's! However, this just reinforces my point that it's not automatically unsafe or unstable to chop or add 10mm here or there.  s:P s:P

Re-reading the original posters message, he was using "streetable slicks", and claimed they suddenly broke away. Most peoples experience with such tyres (e.g. AO32R's) is that they have a very narrow band of slip before they give up entirely, which is more a trait of the tyre/compound itself than the width.  Advans couldn't be more different, and is a testament to their progression that they work at all in this arrangement!

[markiii]

for teh record I run lower pressures on all makes of tyres up front, to reduce understeer, but thast a choice based on experience, and personal preference.

most people who go for the same width all round do so purely becuase thats what "chavs are us" sell with their particular wheel combo

however your point about changing teh make/model of tyres having more to do, while true generally is in this instance a nonsense.

as you have used teh same make/model and size both front and rear regardless of teh characteristics of teh trye itself, you have added more front grip and taken rear grip away.

effectively making teh arse easier to step out than the original tyre specs, which rather proves what we've been saying all along.

your argument only holds water if your using different tyres front to back and hence can make teh argument that make/model/ or compund means this is not any less safe.

[markiii]

no relevance to this thread by the way, but your not teh Jules that wrote of his westfirld on teh way to BATs Anglesey event a couple of years ago?

[juansolo]

You have added more front grip and taken rear grip away...effectively making the arse easier to step out than the original tyre specs.

Given that the car is prone to understeer and is overtyred the rear is, that's not neccessarily a bad thing...  I suspect it's a blast to drive.

[loadswine]

This thread is very polarised. I reckon the only way to settle it is to leave the car like it is then and see what happens.
I do remember a fairly recent  time we had this old chestnut out and a couple of months later, the member didn't have his 2 any more.

[Anonymous]

as you have used the same make/model and size both front and rear regardless of the characteristics of the trye itself, you have added more front grip and taken rear grip away.

But I could put 40 PSI in the front tyres, have pitiful front end grip and thus have nothing but understeer all day long even if I was running narrower tyres at the rear!  Again, am running 26F/32R so I suspect these are pressures biased towards understeer, which just happen to counteract the oversteering bias of the tyre widths.

Not sure what you are now trying to convince me of. My original post was in response to "running same width tyres all round is a big no-no", but it simply isnt as black and white as that - end of really - and dont see how anybody can persist with the argument of otherwise.

no relevance to this thread by the way, but your not the Jules that wrote of his westfirld on the way to BATs Anglesey event a couple of years ago?

The very same!

Was actually the day after that where I took an interest in MR2 Roadster due to the way Juan was very easily getting the back end out on his, though only recently got round to aquiring one.

I believe there was a few Roadster owners there that day, and somebody known as "MPH" with a yellow experimental supercharged or early turbocharged example that broke!

[markiii]

MPH was Martin who had teh black Turbocharged SMT, I had the yellow n/a that is now also turbocharged

[Anonymous]

Ah, I remember now (I think) - was a very long time ago!!

[Anonymous]

I suggested to Jules that he come on here to sort his engine light probs out and get some technical help as i know you guys are well versed in these kind of things.

I think he should let me try his car on track and i'll feedback.  s;) s;)

[Anonymous]

And scare the life out of him as well no doubt!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[markiii]

well he will certainly need new tyres after that Lauren   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Tem]

Re-reading the original posters message, he was using "streetable slicks", and claimed they suddenly broke away. Most peoples experience with such tyres (e.g. AO32R's) is that they have a very narrow band of slip before they give up entirely, which is more a trait of the tyre/compound itself than the width.

You're right, they are designed to grip as long as they can and after that they just let go. Maybe I should've added that I've also run on staggered sized slicks and had no issues. They also let go when you try to go faster than you can, but it's nothing like these.

You probably also noticed from the first post that they seemed just fine when I wasn't going above the limits. That's just what normal people do when they are on a track or street, with limited runoff areas. You might have a slide here and there, but still you're not really pushing it with all you could. I'm sure I could've gotten 8000 troublefree miles with them as well. That's assuming I didn't run into anything unexpected on the streets. I can't be sure of that, so I'd rather not risk it.

Also, never experienced a spin like these on a track. Tracks generally have a great surface, at least compared to roads. It's also rare to find random dirt or leaves on them, not to mention grooves and even if you do, you probably notice them on the warmup lap. You don't have warmup laps on streets.

My original post was in response to "running same width tyres all round is a big no-no", but it simply isnt as black and white as that - end of really - and dont see how anybody can persist with the argument of otherwise.

Nothing's black&white.

But do you really want to give out the message to everyone reading, that it's fine to run the same width tyres all around? You never know who's reading. I know I do plenty of stuff that I'd never mention out loud and make everyone else think it's fine to do that.

And before you say you didn't, let me quote your first post here:

195's all round
8000 trouble free miles
safe for a novice

Yes, I also read the rest you wrote. But still the message was clear, it's safe for a novice to run 195's all round.  s:? :? s:?


So apparently we now have one setup that's "safe for a novice" and many that aren't. 8000 miles proves the first setup and several crashes+spins the others. I think I'll keep my vote on "same width isn't ok".  s8) s8)

[juansolo]

The words safe and dangerous are relative.  There are many cars out there that handle worse than a Mr2 regardless of what rubber they're on, that doesn't make them dangerous.  Likewise there are many people out there who come from safely set up FWD cars who would consider the Mr2 'dangerous' in standard trim, it isn't, they're just inexperienced.  

I remember all the posts when the Elise first came out about people stacking them and claiming they should be banned because "it just snapped on me and spat me off the road".  It lacks any sort of traction control and are set up to handle properly.  They communicate whats happening to the driver and if the driver doesn't interpret that and deal with it accordingly, it isn't the cars fault.  The Mk2 Elise dumbed itself down by fitting thinner front wheels to encourage understeer and reduce it's limits, this is not progress, this is catering for the lowest comon denominator.  

You come from a hot hatch and get into something like the Elise and expect to be able to drive it fast, then you're going to get into trouble.  It's limits are so high that when it does throw a situation at you that you're not used to, you're going so bloody fast, it's going to end in tears.  

Same goes for the S2000, another commonly stacked car.  Nothing will get around the fact that 240bhp through the back wheels without traction control is plenty of power to spin them up and require some modicum of throttle control.  The likes of the Mr2 and MX-5 are magnificently forgiving in this dept as you can pretty much floor it when it starts to go and just steer.

As I say, it has a lot more to do with the nut behind the wheel how safe/dangerous something is.  If it was all about safety we would all be driving cars with stability, traction control and 4WD.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I also read the rest you wrote. But still the message was clear, it's safe for a novice to run 195's all round.  s:? :? s:?

clearly you didn't, because you have totally misquoted me in claiming that 195's are safe for a novice! what i actually said in the first post was:

Handling assessed by Jonny of Bookatrack and concluded to be safe for a novice like me

which seems obvious was specific to my car running on the advans

*shrugs*

again, happy with cars handling, other peeps happy with cars handling, im sure lauren will be happy with it also, etc. (ive got a sneaky feeling she may even complain of a little understeer)  s:P s:P

[Tem]

clearly you didn't, because you have totally misquoted me in claiming that 195's are safe for a novice!

I did.

I quoted it like that on purpose, cause that's what some will read.  s;) s;)

[firepower]

i have to agree with you tem and clearly as you found out if you improve the grip on the front to the same as the rear then the front and rear run out of grip at the same time, this is were the weight bias of the mid engine will take over and around you go   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  no warning and difficult to catch. i am only posting this to had some balance to the debate as i to would not like any one to be lead in to a false sense of security over same size tyres all round

[Anonymous]

Ran the car at a very wet trackday at Snetterton this weekend. Never done a trackday where it has been wet from start to finish, and never drove Snetterton before, so the collosal downpour in the first session was a baptism of fire.

But the car was fine, I expected the wet conditions to change the balance of the car, but not so.  Even got J5 out in the car again to assess the handling in the wet as I had hoped, and it was slided and drifted in a manner no different to in the dry.

By contrast, in wet but less severe conditions the westfield changed from an understeering fairly confident car to an oversteering twitchy and unpredictable beastie that would bite.  And FWIW that car *did* have wider tyres at the rear.  s:P s:P