Turbos and ecu's some help please

[Tem]

I don't have a quantitive figures but I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate a figure of 30C over ambient once the engine is warm and could be significantly more.

Temps from one 2.0l turboed engine running at max 1bar (=14.5psi).

Outdoor temp 25C (=77F)
After turbo 124C (=255F) (before IC)


Obviously that might not have anything to do with MR2's intake temp after completely different turbo at different boost, but gives some idea about the temps on one single case.

[Anonymous]

All be it, PE and top secrets R&D have came up with 2 turbo's both without an IC for mainsteem sale.(top secret doing an IC optional extra).
4.5psi instead of 6psi being their now set "safe" level.

I agree totally that heat kills, i want to be safe than sorry that's why i'm going to use WI.

I've run for over 6months now at 6.5psi without IC and so are many others, without problem.Long term who knows, but lets face it enough '2 engines NA are giving up so i'm not loosing sleep over it.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Anonymous]

Just found out that should i change the standard ECU for the Apexi Power Fc, I would gain around 12bhp.  

If i get it mapped then it could increase to 20-25bhp.  mapping can take up to 6 hours!

Could increase a lot more with a turbo, induction kit or exhaust!

Does anyone know if i would get more engine noise?

[mph]

Just found out that should i change the standard ECU for the Apexi Power Fc, I would gain around 12bhp.  

If i get it mapped then it could increase to 20-25bhp.  mapping can take up to 6 hours!

Could increase a lot more with a turbo, induction kit or exhaust!

Does anyone know if i would get more engine noise?

Compare and contrast:

A'PEXi Power FC
pros:
- can change all engine parameters
- posh name
cons:
- high cost (~£800 ?)
- undetermined compatibility problems with other ECUs
- requires large amount of tuning time
- little to no support

Dastek Unichip:
pros:
- cheap (~£225)
- only changes necessarily engine parameters for performance gain
- proven power increase (search forum for details)
- lots of support around the country
- 3hrs to tune.
cons:
- can't change vvti point



To actually answer your question, engine noise increase is negligible.

[DAZ400]

Martin can you give me some info on the Celica injectors you had and sold please.

[mph]

Martin can you give me some info on the Celica injectors you had and sold please.

Hmm. They were Celica GTS 330cc injectors - straight replacements for the MR2's injectors. Had horrible problems trying to get the car to idle - when on closed loop the ECU always over adjusted and the engine would hunt or stall. I believe the eManage effectively bypasses the closed loop problem (a full standalone would of course too) but in my case using the Unichip, they weren't a viable solution and hence why I've gone the fifth injector route.

[DAZ400]

Martin is that current Celica shape or one previos ?

[Anonymous]

Celica GTS from year 2000 onwards.The e-manage, because it has a injector harness directly controlling the duty cycle of the injectors, allows you to input the stock size of inj and the new increased size then it calculates what % of duty the inj needs to open less to make the car run correct in closed loop.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't normally get involved in a public discussion about a customers car but I think some points need clearing up here.

Intercooler positioning - The Apexi kit places the intercooler on the rear subframe member, this is unfortunately where the pnuematic controller unit is mounted.  In its standard fitment the kit comes with a back plate with a tube feed the plate is sealed around the edges onto the intercooler.  We have moved it closer to the intake vent, the feed is actually shorter and there are fewer hot components near it.  To be honest I think the position its in is far better than the Apexi position as its not so close to the exhaust system.  This has also worked much better on other systems we have built such as a supercharger on a V6 clio that uses much the same IC layout.

ECU - There is nothing wrong with the Power FC.  It is true that the commander is limited in access to the parameters and we don't tend to sell these to end users as it just gives them something to play with the tuning and thats never a good idea.  We use the FC Datalogit unit to tune the Power FC, this works exceptionally well and exposes all the maps and functions of the ECU.  From there its more a case of knowing how the car works and determining the functions of the ECU.  This is something we have a lot of experience with on our own car, the supercharged Toyota Celica.

Engine strength - It turns out that the VVTi engine is exceptionally strong.  How do I know this?  Well the Celica we built has the VVTi engine, to get the compression down we skimmed the stock pistons, so they are weaker than standard.  The engine is currently putting down 240bhp at the wheels and 185lb/ft of torque, again at the wheels.  So far the car has had no reliability problems with the engine, it is using 1 bar of boost.  To state that the car will just destroy itself if Nitrous is used with the turbo is simply not correct, the key here is using a small amount of nitrous to complement the turbo, this can only be done once the car is fully tuned and capable of taking the nitrous without throing the AFR out of tune.  This is a matter of correct selection of the jetting for the nitrous system.  Just to be clear, I don't baby my car at all, it gets a good hammering regularly and was on track at Goodwood yesterday getting a good beating of a novice driver (me) and a much more experienced friend who has never driven it before, I was clocking around 1:40 on the lap and he was a bit quicker.

If anyone has any questions then please feel free to contact me and I will do my best to help.

Thanks

Simon

[Anonymous]

Firstly...welcome.

Were glad of all input.I've seen the position of the apexi IC and i agree that it's original place seems a really bad idea.Your new positioning does look alot better.

You say the engine is strong but in the celica you do get better cooling, the '2 can never use a front mount IC so will always run hotter,so potentially less reliable.And as you say you've lowered the compression of yours which is not the case with DAZ car, or is it?
What sort of shot of nitrous do you use along with the turbo?
Do you know or remember what psi the apexi is set for?

I hope you don't think anyone here is knocking your work,i have heard nothing but good reports about you.Hopefully you'll stick around the board and tell us of any new developments you come across, and more info on your celica engine mods.....please  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[mph]

Thanks Simon for the considered response.

Intercooling: the point I'm trying to make here is that current aerodyamic understanding from the enthusiasts (State-side anyway) is that there isn't any significant airflow in from the side duct, certainly unlike the V6 Clio. I haven't seen the A'PEXi kit fitted so take with a pinch of salt: I would take a guess that if the intercooler is mounted on the lower subframe, it's either not expecting the undertrays to be present (is that the case with J-spec anyway?), or that the tube feed scoops from under the car (a là le TTE). It was largely down to this uncertainty of good airflow that I went for a full water/air intercooler setup.

ECU: I agreed with everything you say. However my view is that in general terms within the UK, there's extremely few garages with sufficient PowerFC experience to maximize it's potential. Further, with no A'PEXi presence in the UK, any unfortunate warrantee or update work means a trip round the world with the inherent customs delays involved.

Engine: Last time I was down at your garage I recall seeing your engine block in the back of a car! No doubt you'll correct me, but didn't you also port & polish the head? Such details such as this and lowering the compression, can have a big outcome on longevity. I don't know anyone prepared to go over .7bar without messing with the internals. That you're playing at a full 1bar is encouraging nevertheless, though not something I'm prepared to do on mine!

[Anonymous]

Firstly...welcome.:

Thanks   s:D s:D  

Were glad of all input.I've seen the position of the apexi IC and i agree that it's original place seems a really bad idea.Your new positioning does look alot better.

Whilst we would have fitted it in the Apexi position had it been a option, I also think it would have ultimately been a limitation in power output.

You say the engine is strong but in the celica you do get better cooling, the '2 can never use a front mount IC so will always run hotter,so potentially less reliable.And as you say you've lowered the compression of yours which is not the case with DAZ car, or is it?

Correct on the cooling leading to higher inlet temps, this can be compensated for to some degree as the problem will be an engine more prone to detonation (pinking/knock) than a car with a decent FMIC, just look at the gains an average scooby can get just by the fitment of an FMIC.  There are methods to compensate, using higher octane fuels, water injection and different timing maps to mention a few.  The compression on my car is lowered, my point here was that the pistons are now weaker than stock, therefore more at risk from problems of detonation or just sheer excess power being generated.  Frankly its amazing the the crown hasn't seperated from the wrist yet   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

What sort of shot of nitrous do you use along with the turbo?

Not too sure on the meaning of this question but I'll have a go.  On any FI car and on cars with no vacuum dependant pressure regulator, you always have to use a wet system, this is where both fuel and nitrous are injected at the same time.  The thing to watch on an FI converted car is that you drop the theoretical jeting right down.  This is because in Fi the effect of nitrous is amplified somewhat, rule of thumb is three times.  So if you have an NA car jetted for 50bhp, and assuming it attains 50bhp, then converting to FI your 50bhp would suddenly be around 150bhp, this will almost certainly rip the aris end out of your engine  s:) s:)

Do you know or remember what psi the apexi is set for?

Its around the 6/7psi mark, this however, is a little subjective.  Remember that boost guages will only read the pressure in the manifold, this is why on most turbo cars, when you improve the flow rat on the turbo you suddenly lose boost, this is simply because the engine can now use more of the available air than before.

I hope you don't think anyone here is knocking your work,i have heard nothing but good reports about you.Hopefully you'll stick around the board and tell us of any new developments you come across, and more info on your celica engine mods.....please  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[/quote]
Not at all, I just read the messages posted and thought a response to clarify some of the questions raised was appropriate.  I am not responding here to drum up business or discuss Japspeed in any way.  If this thread had merely been a lets stick the boot in type thread, then I would hav dismised it as pointless and not bothered to respond.  You don't seem many online discussions that don't end up in some sort of petty bickering.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Simon for the considered response.

Intercooling: the point I'm trying to make here is that current aerodyamic understanding from the enthusiasts (State-side anyway) is that there isn't any significant airflow in from the side duct, certainly unlike the V6 Clio. I haven't seen the A'PEXi kit fitted so take with a pinch of salt: I would take a guess that if the intercooler is mounted on the lower subframe, it's either not expecting the undertrays to be present (is that the case with J-spec anyway?), or that the tube feed scoops from under the car (a là le TTE). It was largely down to this uncertainty of good airflow that I went for a full water/air intercooler setup.

To be honest there isn't that much airflow from the V6 Clio either.  In both cars idle intake temperatures will be high, this is symptomatic of rear mid engine FI cars and the solutions are a bit obtrusive.  It is possible to fit a fan to assist the cooling but this does effect flow at high air speeds so it is often best to leave well alone.  My personal opinion is that the internal plate should be removed from the engine lid to get rid of some of the heat, removing the undercrackers would also improve matters and allow greater air circulation and therefore reduce heat soak.  Not sure if the J-Spec gets undercrackers or not.

ECU: I agreed with everything you say. However my view is that in general terms within the UK, there's extremely few garages with sufficient PowerFC experience to maximize it's potential. Further, with no A'PEXi presence in the UK, any unfortunate warrantee or update work means a trip round the world with the inherent customs delays involved.

This is true, there are few garages with experience with the Power FC, but they do exist.  Its also worth noting that most tuners who really know what they are about will be able to sort it out pretty quickly, its not the most complex ECU in the world and it doesn't support any non stock extra features so theres no real config issues to deal with.  Its also worth remembering that the tuner must be able to use the equipment they have, such as the rolling road, in order to correctly map, unfortunately there are a lot of companies out there who basically have no idea, this I discovered at my expense in pre Japspeed days.  The warrantee issue is certainly there, but that will apply to most ECUs as the ones within any reasonable budget are produced in the states or Japan, frankly when it comes to customer service, I'd rather deal wih the Japanese than the Americans any day.

Engine: Last time I was down at your garage I recall seeing your engine block in the back of a car! No doubt you'll correct me, but didn't you also port & polish the head? Such details such as this and lowering the compression, can have a big outcome on longevity. I don't know anyone prepared to go over .7bar without messing with the internals. That you're playing at a full 1bar is encouraging nevertheless, though not something I'm prepared to do on mine!

Indeed it was.  Before we had Japspeed the engine was "rebuilt" by another company for me.  Unfortunately they didn't know what a torque wrench was and the engine died miserable and lonely   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  I rebuilt the engine myself and it has held together very well indeed, to the point where it has been running very well for about 10 months now with no reliability problems at all.  It is worth noting that pre Japspeed the car only ran about 5psi and delivered a miserly 168bhp to the wheels.  I also thought there where one or two cars (MR-S) out there running around the 14psi boost mark?  We also have another customers car running the 2ZZ-GE engine, thats at 7psi and delivers 300bhp and 180lb/fy of torque, not entirely relevant here but check out the compression levels and more delicate head and you can see the build quality in these new engines.

[Anonymous]

Yes you got what i meant by 'shot' of nitrous.  s8) s8)  

Thanks for your replies. Sounds like the apexi is set the same as the PE, around 6.5psi.

Your not here to drum up business, i appreciate,it's good to have you here answering some questions, and we all respect knowledge, which will hopefully reflect and send some business your way  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

There are a couple of mr-s in the USA i have read that are at, or aiming to 1bar. They are all running heavily modified internals though.No-one in the UK is, or not that are members of mr2roc.

[Anonymous]

I have found out that becuase my car is standard and import from Japan, there shouldn't be any need to tune it providing I use Super Unleaded with Octane of 95!
(95 is the recommended octane for standard mr2, see back of manual)

this will give an increase of around 12bhp

should I make any mods, then i should get it tuned and could get and extra 20 bhp on top!

If I get any knocking with it standard, i'll just reduce the 20-20 ignition map by 2 degrees!

really speaking, with my car standard, the commander will just be for info, when i make more mods, i can then get it fully tuned to the car!


**UPDATE**

Fitted it within 5 mins, found 2 tuners in the uk (only made 2 phone calls) although there is no need to get it tuned yet! I have the commander should i wish to tune anything myself.  Everything is running fine with 97 octane petrol and I have noticed and increase already!!

Thanks for your help!!

[DAZ400]

Ok the GReddy stuff has arrived and is all installed and is absolutly superb a very versatile system the profec is great can be used to program the e-manage and shows all config data can display 3 measurements at once and theses 3 can be any parameter you like even with external inputs from other sensors. I also bought the PC software excellent extreamly easy to use can be used to log data analyse real time display timing injector adjustments just fantastic I would certainly recomend this system especially if you like to know how things work and like to fiddle.  s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

DAZ400 how is emanage now in your ride?? Any problem with it??