Think my pre-cats have knackered my engine?

[Chris_h]

It'd have to be free - they've already been gutted. But thanks for the offer!

(would i need to supply spare manifold nuts?)

I recall seeing the ads for Mi5 in Manchester - not very James Bond.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm!

When all is done I'll see if I can get him to agree a reasonable price for anyone else around here that wants their pre-cats gutted - perhaps if I can send some more business his way he'll give me a discount!!!
 Otherwise I'll just tell you all where not to go!

[markiii]

when yiouy cats are dione change your oil to 15w50 and cross your fingers

thicker oil will band aid it if your lucky, at least until you can afford that new engine

[enid_b]

when yiouy cats are dione change your oil to 15w50 and cross your fingers

thicker oil will band aid it if your lucky, at least until you can afford that new engine

you been sniffing glue old boy?

[markiii]

yep

got some on my fingers  :-) :-) :-)

[Anonymous]

It's back in my drive as of this afternoon. Still a little smokey at first (when cold) but not half as bad as when the main cat was full of pre cat!!!  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

I'm no mechanic so if I tell you what I've seen/heard so far can you tell me what your thoughts are.

After it warmed up the smoking died down (could it just have been burning off some residues???) Also got my missus to drive it whilst I followed her and there was a little puff from the exhaust everytime she hit the throttle at lower speeds, until it got warm and she hit the open road. It hasn't smoked noticeably since but it got dark and much harder to see what was happening.

It smells like warm oil too when I park up which is worrying me a bit now. It did have that smell before... which I thought was normal   s:?: :?: s:?:  

The engine sounds a little clicky under throttle, and when ticking over there's a regular airy noise, almost like its taking breath of air.

One last thing - a couple of times it seemed a bit slow to accelerate in second until about 3000rpm then it just opens up as normal. Not noticed this anywhere else in the range.

  s:? :? s:?  I may be being over sensitive to every smell, sound and sensation as it's only just come out of the garage but then again maybe I'm not  s:?: :?: s:?:  

Given the problems I've just had I don't think it'll be long before I'm looking for a new engine... gonna monitor oil closely from now and see what you guys reckon  s:?: :?: s:?:  

cheers

[Chris_h]

Hi Gav,

Heres hoping it keeps going a lot longer - sounds like it could have been a whole lot worse. I know the garage in Gorstage well, nice little driving lane that one - near my parents house.

I'll keep my eyes open for your 2

[markiii]

did they do an oil change?

the last thing you want is precat material in teh oil still floating around

[Anonymous]

did they do an oil change?

the last thing you want is precat material in the oil still floating around

In addition to having precats gutted and an '04 19000 mile main cat put on I had the tracking and camber sorted and a full service...

here's a break down for you...(prices include VAT)

the 'new' main cat £188
gutting precats and putting new main cat on £188
Service £117.50
Semi-synth 5w 30 Oil £25.85
Spin-on Oil Filter £6.15
Air Filter £13.38
NGK Plugs £18.57
Consumables? £2.12
Tracking £30.55
Camber adjustment £68.15
TOTAL - £658.27

The breathy sound on tick-over wasn't there when I got to work this morning (20 mile drive). very little smoke too which went after a couple of minutes - once it had warmed up, still sounds a little diesel like and still a little sluggish below 3000rpm in 2nd. (Sticky valve?)

So, I too hope it keeps going for a good while longer now!

[Anonymous]

I'll keep my eyes open for your 2

I'm in Weaverham... there's a blue '2 living near Hanging Gate, X reg hard top which I nearly bought myself from Oakmere Toyota. Wonder if he/she knows about the pre-cat issue...? may have to pass on the info.

There's a few '2 s in the car park at work... I must let them know too since I now have personal experience!!!

[Anonymous]

NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! This is bad, very bad  s:cry: :cry: s:cry:    s:cry: :cry: s:cry:    s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  

On way home I noticed some more puffs of blue smoke when I accelerated in 4th and 5th gears after coasting down to about 2000 rpm (not my normal driving style!) I've now done about 60miles since getting the car back from the garage and when I just checked the oil it's about 1cm above the L on the dipstick   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  (when pushed all the way in)

I rang the garage to check he'd filled it all the way up and he confirmed he had.   s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  

  s:?: :?: s:?:  So, what engine/part is it I'm looking for now? I've read things like short block and long block but being a complete numpty I've no idea what that means...   s:?: :?: s:?:  or how much I should pay  s:?: :?: s:?:

[markiii]

try thicker oil first

[Anonymous]

try thicker oil first

Do I need to drain what's in there first before I put some thick stuff in?

does it have to be semi-synth, like what's in there at the moment?

[markiii]

drain and refil with 15w50 you might get away with it

best bet is fully synth mobil1

if it still dissapears it's new engine time

[Tem]

If the only issue is high oil consumption, you might wanna try this:
 m http://www.valvoline.com/maxlife/ m

It's superb for worn engines and has saved many oileaters.  s8) s8)

[Anonymous]

Gav, sorry to hear about your problems, but the simple answer to your original question is NO. YOUR PRE-CATS HAVE NOT KNACKERED YOUR ENGINE:  IT'S YOUR ENGINE WHICH HAS KNACKERED YOUR CATS.  And unless you do something about it, your engine will also destroy your replacement cat sooner or later.

As some of the more astute contributors have already pointed out, if your engine was already burning oil when you bought the car then that's the cause of your pre-cat break up.  As is well documented elsewhere, Toyota had a big problem with oil consumption on VVTi engines in all applications (not just MR2) between approximately 2000 and 2002.  Toyota were certainly aware of the problem and have probably replaced thousands of engines worldwide under warranty.  It seems that the problems were mainly a result of the piston design, and various modifications seem to have cured the problem.  

If you check  w www.spyderchat.com w  there is a thread recording owners' engine and cat failures.  Every one of these failures is relating to 2000-2002 cars with one exception of a 2003 car (probably manufactured in 2002).  Most owners also mention increased oil consumption prior to cat failure.

Also check out   m http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/inde ... 9148&st=25 m   which discusses oil consumption and engine failure on Avensis and other models.

There are people on this site who will still maintain that pre-cat break up is the primary cause of the problems and that Toyota are involved in a massive cover-up operation, but the evidence suggests that they are wrong.  The fact that the post modification engines don't seem to suffer to anything like the same extent, if at all, suggests that the problem was piston related rather than pre-cat related.  And the fact that Toyota replaced so many engines with heavy oil consumption suggest that they do not shirk their responsibilities and that if pre-cats really had been causing engine failures they would have admitted the problem and done something about it.

To return to your engine problems, I suggest that the best course of action would be to strip the engine and assess the damage.  First remove the head and examine the cylinder bores, then examine the crank bearing shells.  If you're lucky you might get away with fitting new (later type) pistons, possibly even without a rebore.  But engine rebuilds aren't cheap these days, so a secondhand engine might be the cheaper option.  And if you do choose that route, make sure that you get a later engine because you will almost certainly be buying one without service history.

[Anonymous]

PS.  Sorry, but thicker oil will make no difference whatsoever!  If anything
       it will eventually exacerbate the problem.

[Anonymous]

So Mike, in essence your saying that post facelift cars have no problems whatsoever regarding precat/oil rings?

[Anonymous]

Nelix.  No, I wouldn't fall into the trap of saying that post-facelift cars have no such problems because someone will immediately come along with an example of one that does!   But I am saying that all the evidence I've been able to find seems to suggest that most of the problems have occurred with the 2000 - 2002 cars.  And I repeat, if pre-cat breakup was the primary cause of the engine failures, then post facelift engines would continue to fail as often as pre-facelift (unless of course Toyota actually modified the pre-cats at the same time, which AFAIK, they didn't).

Do you know of any attempts to collate the data?  I'm genuinely interested in this issue but I can't find any genuine attempts to analyse the evidence other than that very simple survey on the spyderchat website.  All I can find on here is conjecture.

[Chris_h]

Thicker oil will presumably reduce the oil burning a little? but obviously it isn't a fix - it'll just get your car to the trade auctions (and reduce the blue smoke a bit) if you don't want to pay 1k+ on a new engine.

Sorry to hear that Gav - you could always look out for one of the Celica 190 engines and consider it an 'upgrade'.

[Anonymous]

In your humble opinion though, its definetly not pre cat failure that causes the problem, so there is no need for the Che manifold i have purchased to stop this happening on my 400mile 06 plate? I can therefore not bother fitting the Che, safe in the knowledge that the issue isnt precat related and im in no danger of engine failure from precat disintegration?

[Chris_h]

Just as an aside - and hopefully some advice for Gav (feel for you mate)

Should he stop driving it now? presumably the engine is fecked, but 'IF' it was the oil that killed the cats, then how long will the new main cat have left with this level of oil consumption?

Or was it the oil that killed the precats, that killed the main cat?

Make me want to buy something reliable like a Toyota,,, hold on.....

[markiii]

wether oil caused teh cats or teh cats caused teh oil is pretty much moot.

precat material in teh oil and teh bores will exacerbate the oil issue.

no precats and a thicker oil and you might make the engine last a bit longer, I never said you'd save it.


Personally I do beleive there is an oil issue with these engines however as evidenced by so many non failures after precats are out, the precats do increase your chance of failure once teh oil issue begins.

conjecture is all we have without a scientific study or direct comment from toyota

we have neither

and as for toyota honouring repairs on so many engines with oil issues, there are also loads of documented cases where they have not, especially in teh event of precat failure and even have replaced engines but not cleared teh cats and caused teh engine to go twice or 3 times, so I wouldn't be playing teh magnanimous Toyoto would fix it, if it were an issue argument either.

but hey, we've only been dealing with these issues for 5 years or so on both sides of teh pond.

[Anonymous]

It was nice though to get a definite answer for once though  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Tem]

Personally I do beleive there is an oil issue with these engines however as evidenced by so many non failures after precats are out, the precats do increase your chance of failure once the oil issue begins.

I'm sure you're right about that.  s8) s8)

There are many 1ZZ's in other cars without precats. They suffer from the same oil issue as we do, but since they don't have the precats, they only get the oil consumption issue and it never really goes further from there. The engine just keeps using oil, but it doesn't ever self destruct.

So I'm kinda sure that the oil issue is the root cause, but the precats are what kills our engines.


Change of oil has saved many engines. Not necessarily thicker, as for example the Mobil1 15W50 doesn't make a big difference. But the Valvoline Maxlife really does, it's designed for worn engines, which is exactly what we have after the precat material gets into the engine. It's even cheaper than Mobil1, so what would you lose by trying it?  s8) s8)