A new alternative power (courtesy of cumbrianchris)

rtbiscuit · May 2, 2007, 00:23

thought you guys might like this, it was something that i had been thinkning of myself, but this was only possible with chris who shared the same vision and love for all things NA. if it wasn't for him or his excellent knowledge and skills non of this would have been possible.

this is the route i plan to take myself, but need to save up some pennies first. the noise from this is going to be beautiful.

and for those of you unfamiliar with the ITB this is a clip of an S2000 with ITB's on (they're the big silver trumpets on the engine) you can also see the butterfly valves in action.

m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXx0xtMXJzc m

its the closest i can find to our car to give you an idea

ChrisGB · May 2, 2007, 15:58

Interesting stuff. Chris, what other mods have been made to achieve the hp figure or is this on an otherwise stock setup?

Chris

Anonymous · May 2, 2007, 16:18

I've just been reading an article in Max Power (March 2007) Talking about the very same mod on a Peugeot 306 GTI-6, he increased his HP by approximately 100BHP, that was a combination of lightened crank, MI-16 block (ex BTCC), new pistons, flywheel etc etc and a 4 bank throttle body assembly. It's supposed to sound fantastic.

The price for the engine complete was £5000 including the throttle bodies which cost £2500 for the set s:shock: :shock: s:shock: If that's an indication to the price then it's not so cheap. I'm talking throttle bodies only price.

Any way just thought I would pass on the info.

Rob

Anonymous · May 2, 2007, 16:20

so it didnt include the ECU tuning and so on s:? :? s:?

Anonymous · May 2, 2007, 16:27

Quote from: "bossman23780"so it didnt include the ECU tuning and so on s:? :? s:?

No - the £2500 was just the body assembly

Anonymous · May 2, 2007, 16:53

Yikes s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

Well reading what Chris mentioned about changing the manufactor for the casting, maybe it has reduced the costs! but i would have thought the tuning of these could be tricky to setup?!

northernalex · May 2, 2007, 17:05

I'm hoping its cheaper than that! - a PE turbo kit is around 2.5K shipped. (I think) and that'll give you much more power (albiet turbo not N/A). And we all know N/A power is better? right?

(runs from the turbo guys)

Cant wait for a final price though..

ALex

ChrisGB · May 2, 2007, 22:16

Cant see why a set of machined stubs would not be reasonably cheap to make? Whatever way they do it, to provide bang for buck in the same league as turbo conversions, it is not going to be hugely expensive.

Re the excessive fuel consumption below 2000 rpm, could be running rich, in which case the pre conditioning of air across the MAF may need attention, or could be dragging mixture through the engine, ie the valve overlap is not quite tuned to the inlet tract length / exhaust scavenge combination at the low engine speed.

Cant wait to see the graphs. I would like a few more N/A horses.

Chris

rtbiscuit · May 2, 2007, 22:49

chris regarding all the russian you just spoke up there s:wink: :wink: s:wink: chris is the man to speak to about that, he is pretty switched on, and you too can have your own conversastion in "engine lingo"!

will try and get hold of chris tonight re the dyno, he has one, but you will have to forgive him for working what seens like 20 hours a day. i have conversations with him at 1 am when he has just got back from his workshop.

red_leicester · May 3, 2007, 12:03

Quote from: "rtbiscuit"i have conversations with him at 1 am when he has just got back from his workshop.

and Rich has just got back from the pub s:)

s:)

rtbiscuit · May 3, 2007, 17:10

i wish, am normally up planning lessons etc.

Leeber · May 5, 2007, 12:38

So in old-fart-speak, this is like the fuel injected equivalent to fitting twin 40's to the car. Correct?

rtbiscuit · May 5, 2007, 14:17

similar to sticking twin webbers on a ford cross flow engine

Anonymous · May 5, 2007, 18:49

Quote from: "Leeber"So in old-fart-speak, this is like the fuel injected equivalent to fitting twin 40's to the car. Correct?

Nearly - I would say more like a single SU per cylinder, so you have an individual butterfly valve per cylinder controlling the air flow, which is a basic way of increasing your air volume - similar to a turbo.

The car I spoke about above had four individual carbon inlet trumpets, so not sure what the effect will be if they try and draw the air from a common air filter.

Interesting to see how this develops - might consider it if the improvements suggested are maintained.

Rob

ChrisGB · May 5, 2007, 19:38

None too sure that individual butterflys increase air flow in themselves, but the redesign of the inlet overall must encourage improved airflow. This must be a tricky one to design for, what with airflow metering possibly not being as stock airbox and ducting and the variable valve timing making the stub length or bellmouth optimising potentially tricky to tie up with the timing. Credit to Chris for coming up with a solution.

Anyone seen the promised dyno results yet? Or know what setup was used for the power results? I am seriously keen on this one.

Chris

Anonymous · May 5, 2007, 20:12

This may be another naive question, but how would the MAF be metered on the new scheme? I am assuming that we do not need 4 MAF's, so does the MAF go in one pipe and is setup to assume times 4 volume of air?

ChrisGB · May 5, 2007, 20:22

Quote from: "mr_mark"This may be another naive question, but how would the MAF be metered on the new scheme? I am assuming that we do not need 4 MAF's, so does the MAF go in one pipe and is setup to assume times 4 volume of air?

Number of ways of doing it (don't know what one is used with this setup). You could put an MAF sensor in a common air feed just behind the airbox as per the stock setup. You could go for fast pressure / temp / humidity sensors and calculate from an accurate TPS to get fuelling (excellent for throttle response but expensive sensors and programming). You could put single MAF sensor at the entry to a common plenum chamber feeding the stubs. Dont like the idea of just measuring one stub and guessing the others.

All conjecture of course. We need more info!

Chris

rtbiscuit · May 5, 2007, 20:57

right haven't heard from chris in a few days, he is currently snowed under at work, i believe this week he has been working on some kind of a mercedes, fitting very expensive goodies getting it ready for the track.

he has promised me the dyno which i know he will send me, and i'm pretty sure he hasn't been near a computer for a few days because he hasn't been on messenger. if you could all be patient, as a dutchman once said, "these things take time"

as for system setup, i don't think he is running stock. i know he has fabricated his own exhaust, but which bits or if its all of it i don't know.

i think he has his own manifold, but this is guess work, from previous conversations had a while back.

as for the air box i was originally helping design this, but i kind of fell of the horse on this as i just didn't have the time, put pretty sure chris has some sneaky solution for it.

as soon as i know stuff i will share with you lot. but please understand this project is not a priority at the moment but something being done on the side and he has just set up a new business and time, i think is something he wishes he had more of. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Anonymous · June 13, 2007, 22:49

So whats the progress at the moment?

rtbiscuit · June 13, 2007, 22:58

haven't heard hair nor hide from him since i last posted s:? :? s:? , will try and get back in contact with him to find out.

Anonymous · June 14, 2007, 12:27

Just a bit more info via the Mags - there is a pretty good article in Redline this month all about throttle bodies - advantages and disadvantages, it even goes into the different construction - butterfly, slide throttle and roller barrel - the butterfly came out best.

They estimate that in install is approximately £2K including rolling road and expect approximately 25 BHP increase, this can be reduced if an air box is used.

They say the sound in fantastic, can even be louder than a sports exhaust.

Thanks
Rob.

rtbiscuit · June 29, 2007, 20:35

i have finally heard from chris the other day and my concerns where right.

chris had an accident on his bike while on the track. he broke lots of bones and had fractured his skull.

hence the fact i hadn't heard from him.

he is a lot better now but still not 100% so will update with more info soon hopefully.

evileye_wrx · June 29, 2007, 21:01

Someone is/ was selling one of these on Spyderchat for less than £500.

northernalex · June 29, 2007, 21:50

I hope Chris is ok!! Thats bad news Rich!!

Anonymous · June 30, 2007, 12:34

Quote from: "rtbiscuit"i have finally heard from chris the other day and my concerns where right.

chris had an accident on his bike while on the track. he broke lots of bones and had fractured his skull.

hence the fact i hadn't heard from him.

he is a lot better now but still not 100% so will update with more info soon hopefully.

Ouch! That sounds like a major accident then! a fractured skull, even with a helmet on, seems lucky to be alive then!

Get Well Soon!