Brakes / ABS problem

Anonymous · July 19, 2007, 16:42

OK, my 2 is just 2.5 years old with 23,000km on the clock. (Used daily, fairly hard, but only for short distances.)
I have the TTE lowered springs and TTE anti-roll bars, else all is standard.

For the last couple of months I have noticed the ABS 'kicking' in much more frequently. Over the last few weeks I have had a couple of emergency stop situations and the ABS has come on all the time - giving heart-stopping moments!!

I have tested the brakes on a straight road as follows:
30km - emergency stop: ABS immediately kicks in with very poor stopping.
70km - emergency stop: initially good stopping and then ABS resulting in overall poor stopping.
110km - firm stop: ABS does not kick in. Good firm stop, but way short of emergency situation.

OK tyres: Goodyear F1's (one year old - 10,000km)
Tyre pressures: I've tried lowering and increasing them without much difference. Currently 26 / 31psi (Which is my favourite setting. I even bought a Michelin digital tyre pressure gauge (which is amazing) to keep an eye on the pressures.)

Visual Inspection:
Brake Pads: Fronts look OK, with about 8-9mm of pad left
Rear Pads: Ok 10mm plus
Disks: OK, a bit of a shock; the fronts are black - almost a gun metal finish over the whole pad contact surface. The rears are less so - and actually slightly streaky. No rust though or pitting. Another observation is that after a short drive, simply touching the front disks with your finger burns - they are red hot and in fact they seem to spit with any moisture!

I will take some pictures and will post them below.

Incidentally, I have just spoken to Toyota, over the phone, and they just say that the summer roads are greasy and it is normal. (Maybe I should add that I live on a Greek island. We haven't had rain for two months and the average daytime temp is just below 40c - I'm now ducking from cover from those of you living in the UK!)

Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks very much.

Nathan

Anonymous · July 19, 2007, 16:53

I've just uploaded some photos:
http://www.agni.gr/gallery/show_gallery.asp?gallery=Agni/MR2

The first 4 photos are of the front. The last 3 the rear.

aaronjb · July 19, 2007, 17:22

If the discs are hot when you haven't been braking then it's likely your calipers are binding (sticking) on - that'll cause the discs to 'blue' (which it also sounds like yours have) and the pads to glaze..

Although that wouldn't cause the ABS to kick in s:? :? s:?

But they definitely shouldn't be that hot unless you've just emergency stopped, jumped out, and stuck your finger on them...

Anonymous · July 20, 2007, 11:52

thanks aaron. surely sticking (binding) would be noticeable and cause heavy steering or drag to one side? I haven't noticed anything like that.

Anonymous · August 3, 2007, 16:51

Getting worse, so have booked her in to be checked. Toyota simply say it is the roads/sun/heat and nothing wrong with the car!

nathan

BenF · August 6, 2007, 13:37

Could well just be dust / dirt on the sensors? I'd try removing the sensors, cleaning up their faces and replacing them - that may help.

loadswine · August 6, 2007, 17:37

Nathan, if you want to check on whether they are binding, jack up the front wheels after a drive and see if the wheel revolves freely.
The dust thing might be a good idea to check, as I know how dusty it must be in Corfu at the moment which will only add to the dust from the brakes anyway.
How are the roads out there also? as going over bumps and ruts can set the ABS off when the brakes are applied.
Your dealer does seem to be pretty reasonable from your past descriptions, so they should be able to sort it out for you mate.
Yammas! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Anonymous · August 7, 2007, 21:05

Had her checked this afternoon by our local dealer. They now say the pads need changing. (I only have 23km on the clock and they look like they have loads of meat on them, but it's worth a try.) Have booked her in for Thursday to have pads replaced. Will report back on the results.

neilbro39 · August 7, 2007, 21:42

a bit off topic, I assume you are Nathan from Taverna Agni? If so, hope you are having a good year and may see you next year (visited 2005 and 2006 but didn't make it this year). For anyone who doesn't know and is in Corfu - this restaurant in my opinion is the best in Corfu. Hope you don't mind the plug and remember me for a discount next year s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Back on topic, hope your car is sorted and the new pads work.

Neil.

PS where are the straight roads on Corfu s:?: :?: s:?:

neilbro39 · August 7, 2007, 21:48

Quote from: "Agni"I've just uploaded some photos:
http://www.agni.gr/gallery/show_gallery.asp?gallery=Agni/MR2

The first 4 photos are of the front. The last 3 the rear.

OOPS! silly me, I see you already did a bit of a plug with the website link. Missed that earlier s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

Anonymous · August 16, 2007, 14:47

Just back from Toyota!

The mechanic test drove the car and agreed with me that there is a problem. He gave the system a good check. Pads were fine. No obvious problems could be found. I suggested that the pads are changed to at least discount them. He agreed.

Re-tested the car. This time, while stopping, he actually hit the back of another car! (OK only a light tap and no damage done - it was a local priest, but it did prove that the problem was still there!)

The brakes are now worse than before. Even light braking causes the ABS to kick in. The car is not driveable.

They have a brake specialist, who is currently on holiday and will return next Monday, who will take a look. Till then I'll keep the car on the drive.

If anyone has any ideas I would be very greatful.

Nathan

PS Neil: Thanks for your kind comments. Hope you visit again - you'll be welcome to drive my 2 while you are here. Incidentally, was it you that left an MR2 club cap for me last year?

Beowulf · August 18, 2007, 23:28

Jeeez, that sounds bad! seems like the ABS is kicking in MUCH to early. Not sure what would cause this, but I hope they sort it out for you. s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

Anonymous · September 2, 2007, 08:26

OK, took her in again on Friday.

After some test driving, they say nothing is wrong and blame it on the weather as we have not had rain since May, so the roads are very greasy. They gave me a 'Auris' to drive so I could compare. The braking felt about the same and ABS came on in the same manor.

Having owned my 2 for three years (from new). The braking has always been amazing and even in an emergency, the car has stopped without any problem - no hint of ABS unless on a wet or gritty road.

The forecast is for rain next week - so I'll test it once the roads dry up!

Nathan

Anonymous · December 21, 2007, 19:02

Ok, problem still not solved. Toyota say nothing wrong, they have looked at it 3 times now and although helpful/sympathetic say it's me.

Yet, recently while in Crete, I rented a Boxster S. Drove it hard for a few days and covered 800km, not once did I get the ABS to kick in.

The MR2 is getting worse and this morning - on my way to work - it kicked in 5 times. (The office is less than 5km from home!)

My 3rd year service is coming up, but I do not expect Toyota to do any more. I visited my tyre dealer, who fitted the Goodyear F1s. He recons I should choose a softer one. (Just maybe our hot Greek summers have had an effect on the tyres?) They are now two years old (covered 20,000km) but hardly look used. For Christmas I thought I would try changing them - even though they do not need it.

So, what choice of tyres that are really soft? I don't have a problem to change them every 10,000km as I do not do much driving.

Cheers

Nathan

neilbro39 · December 21, 2007, 20:18

Quote from: "Agni"Just back from Toyota!

PS Neil: Thanks for your kind comments. Hope you visit again - you'll be welcome to drive my 2 while you are here. Incidentally, was it you that left an MR2 club cap for me last year?

Nathan

Missed this comment in August, very kind of you to offer the 2 for a spin, but I would be worried about any bumps on those sticky out olive tree roots!
We have actually booked a villa through your website (villa Emilios) and are over there for 2 weeks early May so will see you at the taverna and will say hello. ( I think my son played with your kids or one of your colleagues/families kids last time we were there (Tom and Dikti?).

Sorry to go off topic and I hope you have some joy with your brakes and if you get them fixed you could always take me for a quick spin if you have a spare hour!!
See you then

Neil

neilbro39 · December 21, 2007, 20:20

PS

Not me who left the cap, you must have had other visitors from the club!

ChrisGB · December 21, 2007, 20:21

Hi Nathan

A few thoughts and questions:

Firstly, what tyre sizes are you running front and rear?

I assume you have checked that you have not got any defective or blown dampers / shock absorbers?

Did you change anything on the car just before the problem started?

Are you able to tell if it only one wheel that locks or is it the fronts or rears or just any of them any time?

Things that can cause ABS to cut in fall into two groups, reduced grip levels or brake system problems. Grip levels can decrease if suspension geometry is out, shock absorbers are worn or blown (oil leaking down from the tops, which given the dusty environment may be worth a check under the dust gaiters) and the obvious tyre pressures.

The braking system can suffer electrical problems which could confuse the ABS into triggering (if the rolling radii of the tyres are significantly different to stock it can cause an imbalance front to rear and cause the ABS into thinking that one axle is turning faster than the other, thus indicating to the system that it is time to apply ABS to the slower axle).

The brake discs can suffer surface pick up that will make them grab instead of applying consistent and proportional force to your pedal pressure. The brake servo may have become intermittent. Here you may notice that you have to press the pedal harder to stop than you did before the problem, then all of a sudden, you get much more stopping as the servo takes effect, thus potentially causing the ABS to trigger (is it a vacuum servo on these cars?)

Just a few ideas really. How is stopping distance compared to other cars or compared to before the problems?

Chris

Jaik · December 21, 2007, 22:06

All else I can think is to check the tyres? Apparently there have been dodgy F1s made in the far east somewhere which have AWFUL grip.

Anonymous · December 23, 2007, 15:44

Ok, thanks for messages.

Tyre sizes are standard, bought and fitted at the same time:
195/50/15R
215/40/16R (extra Load ones with stiffer sidewalls.)

Pics here:http://www.agni.gr/gallery/show_gallery.asp?gallery=Agni/MR2

They are now two years old. They have Made in Germany printed on them

Tyre pressures - I tend to prefer a little more pressure than standard and go for 26psi front and 32psi rear. I have tried varying the front pressures without noticing any improvement.

Kilometer age: Although 3 years old, I only have 27,000km on the clock. (hangs head in shame: but it's a small island I live on and difficult to do any long runs!)

ChrisGB: No recent changes. I fitted TTE Springs and TTE Rollbars around the time of the new tyres. I haven't inspected the shocks but certainly no oil leaks noticed on the drive. (Will take a look tomorrow, at the shocks, in the daylight.)
The car brakes evenly (certainly no pulling to one side, even if not holding the wheel.)

When I first had the problem, I got Toyota to replace the pads - even though the old ones looked hardly warn.

I have now mounted a video camera in the car, so keep watching this space for some footage!

PS Neil, I thought you knew, all our villas are rented with the MR2 included:
http://www.agni.gr/travel/enquiries/Car_Rental_and_Hire/index.asp
Just pop by the office, when you are here, and you can take the car for the day. Yammas!

loadswine · December 23, 2007, 15:59

Hi Nathan!
I can confirm that 27k kilometres is pretty good on an island where the roads are a bit tight and twisty, plus Corfu isn't a massive island either.
Sorry to hear that the braking troubles are continuing mate.
I'm not sure if the Toyota technicians understand the finer points of the braking system. Going over bumps with the brakes applied can set the ABS off with very little braking effort.
After they changed the pads, did the condition improve at all.
I can't help wondering whether this is suspension related, exacerbated by the bumpy roads and mixed surfaces you get on Corfu. But they've checked the suspension I guess.
Mmmm, a bit of head scratching s:? :? s:? , baffles me as well, if they've looked and can't find anything at all.

Anonymous · December 23, 2007, 16:39

OK, I promise never to do this again! I've made a very short video of my braking!

http://www.agni.gr/Travel/Enquiries/MR2/index.asp

Yammas!

Nathan

Anonymous · December 23, 2007, 17:25

Hey, I did say it was a short film!

ChrisGB · December 23, 2007, 23:15

In the first braking test, the car is clearly running over a very poor surface and I would expect the ABS to cut in. Second test is harder to tell what is going on. Does the problem occur if you brake on a very smooth even surface?

Chris

loadswine · December 23, 2007, 23:48

I'd agree with Chris on the surface issue, it could be that the roads are just in need of a bit of TLC, but I also know that not everywhere on the island is like that. It is a fairly challenging environment for a braking system, dust , heat and uneven surfaces.
The car sounds really nice though Nathan. s:)

s:)

Anonymous · December 24, 2007, 08:26

Actually that road is one of our better ones!

The road is fine. (Looks poor in the video, the edges were recently dug up to install ADSL phone cables, but otherwise a smooth surface.) Even on better (smoother) roads, braking is the same. Don't forget the problem is recent. (OK the last 6 months or so.) Previously, getting the ABS to ever kick in, was only if you were on a wet road or using way to much peddle pressure or sometimes if braking hard into a corner and a small 'bump' in the road causes lose of traction resulting a single 'engage' of the ABS.

I'll find a better road and record a couple of other stops, to see what you think.

Cheers