Catastrophic Engine failure

[rtbiscuit]

manifold and other parts i can order in from the states, or scrounge from people on the forum for a price.

just got to save up, so taking my car off the road once i get it towed home.

[rtbiscuit]

have been thinking what my final BHP might be like once the work is done, taking into consideration that i have the H&S twin (will that work with the new engine) i will also have an apexi PFC (i hope (if i get it tuned will i get more from the engine))

Things i need to buy:

- 2ZZ-GE engine......................roughly £1200
- Performance Clutch...............?
- Fly Wheel..............................?
- Apexi PFC.............................roughly £400
- Modified manifold..................?
- LR conversion Kit..................?
- New induction kit (green dyna twist)................£100

Rough cost..................?

Things i can sell:

- Custom Painted Valve cover (see garage for pics)..............?
- Custom painted Apexi Induction kit (see garage for pics).....?
- Che Mainfold....................................................................?

as you can see i haven't worked to much out.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  will up date as i find out more  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[loadswine]

If you're really going to go for this Rich, everything I've read says that having the matching 6 speed box is the way to get the best from the engine, due to its ratios.
Seems like SC is the next port of call for your shopping list.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Wabbitkilla]

I would've thought you could still use the Apexi induction kit (even with slight modification), and you'll need a induction kit anyway.

Do you realky need a flywheel ? surely the one on the 2zz is already good?

Just get a manifold to mate the engine to your exhaust and with the pfc I wouldn't be surprised if you're in the 200bhp area

[rtbiscuit]

Things i need to buy:

- 2ZZ-GE engine......................roughly £1200
- Apexi PFC.............................roughly £400
- Modified manifold..................?
- LR conversion Kit..................?
- New induction kit (green dyna twist)................£100
- dyno and tuning session.......................roughly £300

Rough cost..................£2000

optional extra's

- Performance Clutch...............£200ish (RPS)
- Fly Wheel..............................£250ish (RPS)
6 speed gear box.....................

Optional extra's cost...........£450 ish

Things i can sell:

- Custom Painted Valve cover (see garage for pics)..............£100
- Custom painted Apexi Induction kit (see garage for pics).....£80
- Che Mainfold....................................................................£130

[aaronjb]

Rich - don't forget to budget for tuning into that - the PFC base maps are just that.. a basic starting point.

So you'll need to budget a few hundred quid for dyno & tuning time, unless you are willing to risk it with someone elses 2ZZ map (and, personally, I wouldn't).

That means you either need to find somewhere that already has a Datalogit or official Apexi dealer to tune, or buy a Datalogit as well..

[rtbiscuit]

is there anywhere round here with those kind of facilities? how do rogue tune theirs?

once i have this all together it gives me an idea of what i9'm looking at, then i 'll approach woodsports and see what he might be able to do?

just trying to get all my options in place.

 2ZZ-GE engine......................roughly £1200
- Apexi PFC.............................roughly £400
- Modified manifold..................?
- LR conversion Kit..................?
- New induction kit (green dyna twist)................£100
- dyno and tuning session.......................roughly £300

Rough cost..................£2000

optional extra's

- Performance Clutch...............£200ish (RPS)
- Fly Wheel..............................£250ish (RPS)
6 speed gear box.....................

Optional extra's cost...........£450 ish

Things i can sell:

- Custom Painted Valve cover (see garage for pics)..............£100
- Custom painted Apexi Induction kit (see garage for pics).....£80
- Che Mainfold....................................................................£130


this is where i'm up to so far but there are some items i'm not sure on price wise like the 6 speed box etc

[evileye_wrx]

Rich, you might be a bit over-optimistic on your estimates of the stuff you'll sell. I recently bought a sprayed engine cover, and other bits for £25. I also sold a che manifold for £80. A 2nd hand apexi I'm unsure of the price, but I think they've gone on here for about 50 - 60 quid.

As I've just discovered, selling on ebay may increase the money you'll make. Selling to the uninitiated  so to speak. It's also the place to go for your parts if you want to keep the price of the whole build down. Also spyderchat for cheaper 2nd hand parts due to the poor dollar, and, since it's 2zz, newcelica.org. I just picked up my injectors for next to nothing from there when a spyderchatter wanted nearly 4 times as much.

[aaronjb]

There's been reported success on SC using the Celica ECU, I think, also.. that would cut costs down.

You'd need to fabricate or hack up a 2ZZ airbox though - 2ZZ MAF sits in a larger tube with no vanes.

[Anonymous]

Am I the only one thinking here that this may not be the best idea for Rich? I mean, yes his engine's gone and he needs another and more power is always preferential, but then personally I think he may be going down the wrong route here.

Do you want a high-revving engine?
Do/should you really be trying to do this on such a strict budget?
Can you afford to be without the car when you get problems (and you will, no matter how sorted a first install you have)?

There's no doubt that the 2ZZ is the better engine and if you like to live above 6K revs is awesome fun in the '2, but if you try and do it on a budget I think you're going to come unstuck with regards to just what kind of setup you're aiming for. I'm only saying this as a mate Rich, but at this point in time I can't help but think you should probably just stick another 1ZZ in there for now and then maybe in the future do what you really want to do when you've got the money (whether that's ITBs, S/C, 2ZZ or turbo) and do it to the standard you want.

[aaronjb]

Am I the only one thinking here that this may not be the best idea for Rich?

No - I think he's crazy to consider a 2ZZ swap as even remotely the same thing as dropping another 1ZZ in for under a grand.. but it's not my place to choose for him, so I just give technical advice where I know it - as Rich does seem to rather have his heart set on a 2ZZ.

[Liz]

I am sorry to hear this Rich as I said to you yesterday, I haven't really got the technical knowledge to advise you as you know, but personally speaking I would go for the 1ZZ if you have other things to do with your money at the moment.

I agree with Dan that anything other than a straight swap won't get your car back on the road quickly for you, just reading back on posts on here about 2zz swaps, and subsequent problems etc and my own experience with problems after the Turbo were nothing in comparison with other owners being off the road.  Having said that I can more than understand the need for more power whilst you have the chance to do it though - sorry not much help I know.  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:    Good luck.

PS - I take it you have no aftermarket warranty?

[kanujunkie]

thoughts are with you Rich, i know how you must feel at the mo, looks like my second gearbox is on its way out. Hope you get it fixed matey but i'd check out the 2zz properly and go test drive a celica with the 2zz first, i took out a GT and whilst the lift was brilliant its effects were too short for me and i was left feeling dissapointed, of course the 2 is a lot lighter though

[Steven Velocity]

but i'd check out the 2zz properly and go test drive a celica with the 2zz first,

You'd be better off testing a base model 2zz powered elise as that's much closer to what you have with a 2zz spyder. I'll post up more info on the swap & parts nec. a bit later as I'm almost out of credit at this net cafe.

Cheers!

[Anonymous]

Thing is a 111R will be so much quicker and better handling than a 2ZZ MR2 will that it'll distort the mind into what you'll be getting in the end. I have to agree with Stu on this one the Celica will give you the feel for the engine but without the whole "OH MY GOD THIS IS SO MUCH FUN!!!" factor.  s;) s;)

[ChrisGB]

Hi Rich

Sorry to hear about this, just what you don't need. I would take a little time to consider what has gone tits up before committing large amounts of money.

You may have lost a piston ring, which means the bore has almost definitely gone with it. Possible rebore / reline and oversize pistons could sort that out. You will have seen a lot of smoke probably.

You may have holed a piston which may only need a replacement piston. Smoke again.

You may have a blown head gasket, could be very cheap to fix (next to a new engine). Possibly no smoke, look for oil / water cross contamination or fuel in oil or water. May just blow out of the side, so check around the block.

You may have broken a rod and may just need to replace that. Need strip down to suss it out. No smoke generally.

You may have dropped a valve, so new valve, collet, spring and possibly piston. No smoke normally.

Be sure to get a good diagnosis before parting with major money.

As for 2ZZ, you wont really get the best on the 1ZZ gearbox as the ratios are too widely spaced. The car will drop out of the mental zone at each upchange. As an example, you will be in a hole from 48 to 60mph between 1st and 2nd. You will be able to do 80 in 2nd though!

Hope you get is sorted as cheaply and quickly as possible.

Chris

[rtbiscuit]

if i was to do this i would want to do it properly, and at the moment i am just trying to guage what all the costs are, then look at costs of repairing the 1zz.

i have access to another car for as long as i need, its my brothers.

and as for cash i wanted to keep costs down but can save up,  i may keep the car off the road till i get the money together, or by the parts one by one until i have everything i need.

my under lying thoughts are if i'm going to spend all this money to have it fixed, why not spend a bit more and upgrade the power, instead of paying to do it all again.

for toyota to just inspect it will be £400, and thats before anything else. well thats the price of an apexi PFC.

[rtbiscuit]

- 2ZZ-GE engine......................roughly £1200
- Apexi PFC.............................roughly £400
- Modified manifold..................?
- LR conversion Kit..................?
- New induction kit (green dyna twist)................£100
- Performance Clutch...............£200ish (RPS)
- Fly Wheel..............................£250ish (RPS)
- 6 speed gear box.....................
- dyno and tuning session.......................roughly £300

rough cost...........£2450 ish

am i right in thinking a 6 speed gear box is about £350 or am i being silly.

as for when it went, their was no smoke at all.

it started the night before just as i got home i noticed that in 2nd gear 3000 rpm there was a rattle sound like something was loose on the car. (hadn't thought engine)

next day drove in fine, till nearly at work then the noise returned, the rattle returned suddenly got louder then  pop, it kinda went quiet then the car sounded like a tractor (i think that was because their was no compression in the cylinder.)

it still drives but stalls out if i remove my foot off the gas. at the moment it s sat at toyota.

[aaronjb]

Ok, be prepared to inhale swiftly through your teeth (y'know, like a proper mechanic) and say:

"Ooh that's gonna cost ye"

Here's some prices I just sat down and worked out for you, because I'm just that nice  s;) s;)

If you go 1ZZ:

Code Select Expand

1ZZ Engine   £1000.00
Fitting       £500.00

Total        £1500.00
If you go 2ZZ and 'self tune' (or get someone else who knows how to tune the PFC to do it.. watch this space  s;) s;)  ):

Code Select Expand

2ZZ Engine   £1200.00
Apexi PFC     £400.00
Datalogit     £200.00
Copilot        £20.00
Wideband O2   £240.00 (LC-1)
Induction kit £100.00
LR Manifold   £350.00
LR Swap Kit   £250.00
Clutch        £200.00
Flywheel      £250.00
Gearbox       £400.00
Fitting       £700.00

Total        £4310.00
Now if you do away with everything but the absolute essentials and pay someone else to tune (budget £300 or so at least):

Code Select Expand

2ZZ Engine   £1200.00
Apexi PFC     £400.00
Induction kit £100.00
LR Manifold   £350.00
LR Swap Kit   £250.00
Flywheel      £250.00
Gearbox       £400.00
Fitting       £700.00

Total        £3650.00

Notice I left the flywheel in there (1ZZ flywheel doesn't mate to the 2ZZ remember, wrong bolt pattern IIRC) - if you can get a 2ZZ with the flywheel and clutch still attached, drop £250 from that price.

The LR Manifold could be made optional if you cut the flange off the Che and have a new flange welded on along with the pipe diameters changed, but the LR header has nicer runner lengths I think, and the right diameter pipes not to totally kill the high-RPM performance.  You're really going to want a CAT-less downpipe or race-CAT though - stock CAT will muller performance again.

The LR Swap Kit includes a bridge mount so you can use the stock 1ZZ mounts, modified dipstick tube and an engine wiring harness patch - so you don't have to rewire the whole car  s;) s;)  Without that expect labour costs to go up to compensate, so £150 for the wiring patch seems like good value to me.

If you did away with the gearbox you'd end up with a horrible drive, so I really really don't recommend that, but.. you could do it in a pinch and then shell out again later to have the 'box swapped for a good J-spec 6 speed.

Fitting prices are not exact, but are based on .. well I can't tell you right now, or I'd have to shoot you  s;) s;)


[edit] The costs for gearboxes etc are based on what I've seen other people pay, or what I've paid personally (for PFC etc)

[rtbiscuit]

cheers arron, i thought it might come out expensive like that,  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

i am going to speak to mark tonight we have a lot to discuss, will no more later.

[aaronjb]

Yeah - costs mount up fast.. I know from experience when I did the calculations on the turbo kit that it soon shot up from £2500 to £4500, and I dread to think what I've actually spent so far!

Erk.. just worked it out - £3800 so far, not including £200 on the kit and £600 on the wheels, oh and £500 on painting stuff!

[rtbiscuit]

when it comes to ECU's does it have to be an APexi PFC, there are lots of other stand alone ECU's like mega squirt II

but i would definatly get it tuned proffessionally, its not my thing.

i have been told their are lots to use, some cheaper than others and some cost more than others to tune due to time etc.

[aaronjb]

There are plenty of ECUs you can use - but not many cheaper than the PFC..

MegaSquirt is no good as (last time I checked) it can't handle direct ignition systems, let alone VVT..

Link XLEM can do it, I think, but it's pretty rare as ECUs go at the moment.
MoTeC if you want to spend £1000 upward
Hydra is good, but relatively unknown in this country - and more than the PFC
GEMS another big name, but I can't find pricing

The PFC is pretty much the cheapest - and most widely used - VVT capable standalone at the moment, from what I can tell..

[rtbiscuit]

that it will have to be then  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

cheers aaron, i really apreciate everyones input.

i do have one other option, which is repair and then sell, buy something new.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!! i still think 2zz is an option at the mo!

[ChrisGB]

that it will have to be then  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

cheers aaron, i really apreciate everyones input.

i do have one other option, which is repair and then sell, buy something new.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!! i still think 2zz is an option at the mo!

I must admit that a 2zz powered MR2 is what I would like to have next year. Don't know if funds will permit yet though. Doing my research, I would be tempted to give the new motor a set of stage 2 cams and valve springs to match as there is some pretty serious power gains to be had from this combo. The Piper cams in particular give a very plump midrange, filling in the hole before lift kicks in, so may give you a partial alternative to changing the gearbox. Not ideal, but usable. Maybe JDM MRS gearing could help?

As for the exhaust manifold, I would not think the Che manifold could be used even with butchering. The chances of it working out are minimal. You will need to sort something out separately, either a custom build (around £350 and you need a sport cat on top) or the LR solution. PPE do a 2zz swap header, but it is $1200 IIRC.

How about a rebuilt 1zz maybe 2L with stage 2 cams as a halfway house if building the engine yourself?

Chris