Catastrophic Engine failure

[northernalex]

Would the matrix 2zz-ge ecu work as a cheap stopgap till you get PFC?  There's a few on american ebay for about 70 quid + postage?

[rtbiscuit]

i'm mulling several solutions over at the mo, i have got to work out if its worth it. their is one thing spending £2,500 their is another spending £4000, if i'm going to spend this much do i really love the car that much or is it worth passing the capital into something else.

i love the car and am determined to get it on the road but just got to decide what  s:? :? s:?

[ChrisGB]

i'm mulling several solutions over at the mo, i have got to work out if its worth it. their is one thing spending £2,500 their is another spending £4000, if i'm going to spend this much do i really love the car that much or is it worth passing the capital into something else.

i love the car and am determined to get it on the road but just got to decide what  s:? :? s:?

Been considering the virtues of pouring money on the MR2 myself. At the end of the day, it is probably not worth it in cold hard cash terms, but how much more would you spend to get a mid engined car with decent performance but without Lotus reliability / comfort compromises?

With a tuned 2zz in place you are over the 200bhp per tonne point which is where cars get interesting IMO. You wont get that price / performance / handling ratio for less money IMO.

Also, look at Paul Woods Woodsport website. The prices for V6 swaps in older MR2s is pretty keen. If the Mk3 conversions are a similar price, you have another very attractive option.

Take time and consider the options, whatever you go for, I hope it works out well. I get the feeling you will go with more power.

Chris

[rtbiscuit]

if we're going down the route of which power option it starts to get complicated for me, i understand forced induction and N/A,

the options are i suppose

stay 1zz
go 2zz
go 3stge
or go V6.

i was never looking for out and out power, i don't want nor need 60bhp, so it kinda rules out the 3stge. no offence to forced induction as it does a very capable job. but i much prefer good old N/A.

i want a car that is fun to bomb around in, easy to use, minimal fuss and hassle. i don't have time to keep sticking it on the ramp and rebuilding it. so what ever i do it has to be right first time.

question is what is right?  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

[Liz]

i want a car that is fun to bomb around in, easy to use, minimal fuss and hassle. i don't have time to keep sticking it on the ramp and rebuilding it. so what ever i do it has to be right first time.

question is what is right?  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

I would of thought that the answer to that was fairly obvious with what you have said above - put it back to what it was 1zz..have you driven a turbo yet?  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

In order of reliability, I'd say:

1ZZ
2ZZ
Turbo
S/C

I've deliberately left the V6 out for now as although I have no doubts that Nigel's conversion will be/is amazing and the engine as reliable as anything, there's bound to be some running in issues as is the case with anything like that. As we don't know what they are yet it's not fair to pass comment I feel. From your description Rich, what you're actually after is another 1ZZ, as Liz says.

[aaronjb]

Yep, if you want a reliable daily driver that's NA.. stay 1ZZ.

The 2ZZ will be almost as reliable though, I suspect - because it's basically a as close to a drop-in replacement as you can get.. There's certainly people in the US using 2ZZ as daily drivers (Dev? I think.. oilfield_trash was another I'm pretty sure).

If you do seriously never want to do anything other than oil changes then 1ZZ is your only option.. if you're happy to do a little more then the 2ZZ becomes viable IMHO.

(Actually Dan, I'd probably swap SC & turbo around in your list - there's less to go wrong with a supercharger, aside from forgetting to fill the thing with oil  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  )

[Anonymous]

On another application maybe, but I was going on the fact that we know a lot about how a turbo works on a '2 but not so much how an s/c does, IYSWIM.

[Chris_h]

I hope you get it sorted either way you go Rich. I imagine you're on the case, but have you had an insurance quote to factor into the 2zz equation? They are normally a bit of a pain with engine changes unless you find a nice understanding broker.

Good luck whatever

[rtbiscuit]

i don't mind the odd tinker here and there, and in general i love the car for what it is but feel it just needed a little more. i didn't what uber power which you guys get from your forced induction. its never been my thing. but i don't think i want a V6 either. yes its a great engine etc, and will be an awesome car, but i love the fact that mine is so cheap to run (LOL, well kinda) compared to other cars. one of the hardest things when it comes to replacing my car is finding something which is as much fun, user friendly, and fairly economical to run.

in comparison for fun, i could get a vx220 or elise or similar, but they don't carry the same comfort, luxury etc. and they are a more hard core version, better as a track car.

or if i go for power i like the V6's but would want a something like a 350z or similar, love the jag xk's as well. but these are thirsty engines, more expensive to buy and run. and they are better as a cruiser not a bomb around car. and i'm just not ready for that.

i'm still at the fly by the seat of my pants stage in life. and i feel the 2ZZ would be the next best progression for me. it gives that bit more power, maintains the car as it already kind of is. and follows with what i have in mind for it.

i never  pictured it as a turbo or SC or V6 its a roadster at the end of the day, and i want to maintain some of the charteristics.

[Wabbitkilla]

Don't forget that the 2ZZ does require regular maintenance of the lifter pins. They need to be checked and replaced at regular intervals, i've heard of some ending up rattling around the sump and causing all sorts of mayhem.

The 2ZZ will be fun no doubt, but there's a lot to do and expensive things to do when converting. If costs are important why not drop the 1ZZ out, find out what's wrong and then talk to MWR about their big bore options. Close to 2L with PFC and manifold has got to be a cheaper option than a full blown 2ZZ with all the bits needed?

[markiii]

2zz lift bolts are easy solved, I have a set of 4 cryo treated ones in teh garage  :-) :-) :-)

[northernalex]

I wonder what sort of power gains you'd get with some:
Stage 2 crower cams and springs £400
Big bore (2L) pistons and sleves £400
PFC £400
Zero Manifold £450
Tune and install £1000?

From what I remeber from the MWR prices.  Looking at around £3K ?

[spit]

For what its worth, I'd be looking at a 1zz replacement option too Rich,

Or look to get your 1zz repaired and retain the option to go MWR high comp overbore if its going to need that level of stripdown to make it good anyway? It'll rattle a bit more but you're on the way to moderate gains.

[Steven Velocity]

Wow!   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  Lots of good information (& a little mis information  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  ) here for you te sort through Mr. Biscuit. I'll do what I can to help as a 2zz Spyder swapper/driver.

First of all, do you really want/need a 2zz? Yes it is a superior engine to the 1zz, but the power gains are mainly in the stratospheric RPM range (5000 to 9000 rpm *stock 2zz redline is 8300 to 8600 RPM*) , meaning from 0 to 4000 RPM it may feel very similar to a 1zz. Are you a high rev driver? Are you planning on modding to get even more power? If not, you can get the same relatively reliable power as a stock 2zz from a modded 1zz for similar money as the 2zz swap.

EKONA - sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the celica v elise test. Having driven all 3 I have to say the elise will give a much more accurate idea of what a 2zz spyder is like. To back up my pants seat with a little data, here are a couple figures:

The Spyder is MR, as is the Elise, where the Celica is FF, making the acceleration & handling characteristics of the Spyder much closer to the Elise than the Celica. Also, the weight distribution of the Spyder is closer to that of the Elise than that of the Celica.

The Elise weighs roughly 1975 lb (895kg), the Spyder around 2200lb (997kg), and the Celica near 2500lb (1134kg). With engine output a constant, the Spyder's power to weight ratio is closer to the Elise than to the Celica.

Of course the 2zz powered Elise will perform a bit better than the 2zz powered Spyder, but it will be a much closer comparison than the Celica.

WABBITKILLA - The 2zz does not require regular maintenance of the lifter pins/bolts. These should be properly replaced once, but not multiple times. The reason for replacing the bolts is a manufacturing flaw in the original bolts that caused the end tang to break off, (there was a TSB for them a few years ago) and Toyota has since changed the manufacturing process for bolts, and they no longer have this flaw. Cryo treating may or may not make the bolts better for their application. Theoretically it does make them harder, but it could make them more brittle as well, I don't know.

If you are dead set on having 2zz power than congratulations, here's what I reccomend as your bare minimum parts list.

2ZZ ENGINE £1000 to £2000
preferably from a 1999 to 2001 2zz powered car as the sensors are in the right place for a less complicated swap (in the US anyway). You should replace the lift bolts with new ones for optimum performance.

6 SPEED GEARBOX £400 to £800
You want this gearbox. Technically you can use the 5spd, but you'd be sorely dissappointed in the results, and end up paying extra for someone to take the old box off and put a 6spd on later. Save yourself the money & hassle and get the 6spd.

EXHAUST MANIFOLD £100 to £500
The 1zz exhaust manifold is not compatible with the 2zz, and the 2zz exhaust manifold is not compatible with the Spyder, so you'll need to buy a swap manifold (Little Rocket makes one) or modify one from the 2zz or 1zz to fit.

COLD AIR INTAKE £20 to £200
The stock 1zz CAI piping diameter is too small & restrictive for the 2zz. While you can modify it to fit you'd be sorely dissappointed in the results and end up replacing it almost immediately.

CLUTCH & FLYWHEEL £300 to £600
While you're in there this is the best time to get an upgade for essentially free labour. The stock 1zz clutch would soon burn out on the 2zz(in the US the 1zz & 2zz clutches are interchangeable), and the 1zz flywheel is incompatible to the 2zz.

ECM £60 to £600
the stock ecm from the 1999 to 2001 2zz powered celica, matrix, corolla, or vibe will work just fine and will be the cheapest most reliable option, but will not have the tuning flexibility of any aftermarket stand alone or piggyback ecm. Tuning for an aftermarket ecm is extra.

Little Rocket swap kit £250?
I'm not really sure what this kit costs so I 'borrowed' aaronjb's number. The kit should come with a wire harness patch, the right side motor mount bridge, and a few other bits helpful to have for the swap. Although LR work is always top notch I reccomend ordering this part a couple months in advance as he is vey busy and sometimes takes quite a while to ship your product. An alternative is to make your own (or pay someone to make them for you) wire harness patch and right side motor mount bridge and come up with the other bits, but that could be more hassle than you're willing to take on.

LABOUR £800 - CAUTION SHAMELESS PLUG AHEAD
I am offering my services for £800. Drop off your 1zz Spyder with all the swap parts and pick up a fully sorted turnkey 2zz Spyder 1 week later. I'll keep the old tired 1zz as a core to despose of, rebuild or whatever. If you'd like I can even source the parts for you. I'll come and get your 1zz Spyder & deliver you a fully sorted turnkey 2zz Spyder a week later. The cost for this particular service is £4500 including 1 dyno tuning session, and requires 2 months advance notice so I can gather up all your parts.

So there you have it. 2zz power is between £2930 and £4500 away.

My 2zz Spyder is my daily driver and reliability is the same as the 1zz (maybe even more reliable because of no pre cats!) Spyder. It is a stock Toyota engine & gearbox afterall. Hope some of this is useful to you.

Steve

[Anonymous]

Sorry to hear of your problems Rich - but I think you need to find out what the real problem is first before you decide which route to go.

But I must say this is a great topic, with some very different points of view. It interesting just to see how many different alternatives there are - N/A, turbo, SC and finally engine change.

I think the choice is really down to what you want out of the car, my route is simple, keep it original, bolt on some quality well thought out mods giving you fun along with reliabilty - that's the most important bit "reliabilty" with minimum fuss.

Remember it's not just the engine that gets you around the bends and down the straights, you also need to consider suspension, brakes and chassis mods as well.  s:D s:D  

Rob

[Wabbitkilla]

I bow to Steve Velocity, we're not worthy. But it's interesting and important to get the facts out. I'd love to see Rich achieve more power and performance out of this problem. But the funding is critical and we have to be realistic about what can be achieved.
Rich, you really have to be certain about how much you want to spend. That will be what really decides on what you can achieve. All this discussion is great and shows us all what is possible, but at the end of the day we all have limits we have to live within.

For me purely on the cost and effort, the upgraded 1zz seams like a great option but then I have a 6 cog box and upgraded clutch. If you can afford the 2zz with all the anciliaries then go for it, i'm sure you will enjoy it.

[rtbiscuit]

all the information is extremely helpful, and has answered alot of questions.

i now have some new ones, several of you have talked about refitting the 1zz but one that has been tuned up.

if i remember rightly some one said have it bored out to 2 litres and fit a stroker kit or something. what kind of gains am i looking at over the 2zz, will this kind of option give more torque lower down, would i not still need a new gear box clutch etc.

are the costs not going to be just as high?

as for body improvements i have some already, but more planned as well, just this happened to have come up first.

[rtbiscuit]

just while i remember

stu, why do you need another gear box, is it that their is to much power running through yours, or just general wear and tear?

[ChrisGB]

if i remember rightly some one said have it bored out to 2 litres and fit a stroker kit or something. what kind of gains am i looking at over the 2zz, will this kind of option give more torque lower down, would i not still need a new gear box clutch etc.

are the costs not going to be just as high?

Hi Rich

Guilty! If you check out Monkeywrench racing, you will find a kit comprising of liners and Wiseco pistons to take you to just below 2L. Now you need to fill and empty the 11% increase in capacity which will require the breathing to be optimised, so possibly a stage 1 cam if you are staying with something good in the midrange, stage 2 cams for something a bit more feisty but less civilized. Stage 2 will need better valve springs.

You need to have a useful exhaust manifold to get the scavenging good, so Zero or PPE, depending on how you like your torque. Remeber the Zero needed to be partnered with a PFC to get the figures out, the PPE does it out of the box. Both may not work quite so well with the cams. Phone MWR, it does not cost much and they could give you a good idea as they sell all that I have mentioned here.

My guesstimate is that you could see around 170bhp and 145lb/ft on the more conservative stage 1 cams and PPE setup. Possibly a bit more on stage 2. Get management sorted, possibly more still.

My thinking is if it is a knackered ring, you will need to rebore anyway, so may as well reline. The Wisecos are unlikely to go oval on you so reliability should be OK.

As for gearbox, a modified NA engine will not put much more torque down the system, maybe +20% if you are really lucky. A lot of the power gain to be had with the 1zz is losing the appalling drop off at the top end rather than adding to the mid range. Remember that the FI solutions gain their power by increasing torque, and it is torque that kills gearboxes. If you go to 250bhp, you are asking the gearbox to soak up +80%, so it will become less likely to survive long. The TTE solution only pushes around  +32% more torque, so  would to me indicate that it is around what Toyota feel the box should handle. Also, as the box torque loading goes up, the likelihood of early failure goes up exponentially once you get past sensible figures and into the unknown.

Of course, lightened flywheel and clutch are a no brainer while it is on the bench.

A rebuilt 1zz is still under consideration here as well.

Chris

[rtbiscuit]

i reckon with all that work your still looking at £2000-£2500 worth or work.

i like idea, its something different, would adding larger injectors make a difference to it or is that more an FI thing.

[ChrisGB]

i reckon with all that work your still looking at £2000-£2500 worth or work.

i like idea, its something different, would adding larger injectors make a difference to it or is that more an FI thing.

If you keep it simple with  2L kit, stage 1 cam, MWR Flywheel and clutch and say PPE header and high flow cat, you could do it for £1500 including fitting the liners. Would probably need emanage or similar to optimise it.

The stock injectors are used on turbo cars up past 180bhp so I doubt that they would be a problem. If they were, get an uprated FPR instead, cheaper and potentially and better atomisation.

After browsing MWRs website, I have been tempted to buy a knackered 1zz and tune it up. Time is the real problem for me at the moment.

Chris

[Anonymous]

If you're serious about the 2l kit Rich, go and have a read on SC of some of the horror stories over there. It would certainly put me off ever going down that route (hell, it did as I was considering it at one stage).

[rtbiscuit]

chris it is very possible that there will be a knackered 1zz engine coming up soon.   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  lol. if your interested and i don't use mine your welcome to it, i'm sure we could come to some agreement.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

to be honest upgrading the 1zz is not a solid option i was thinking of. a nice idea, but not what i'm looking for.

to be honest i think its going to be a 2zz, but how where and when is another issue.

[ChrisGB]

chris it is very possible that there will be a knackered 1zz engine coming up soon.   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  lol. if your interested and i don't use mine your welcome to it, i'm sure we could come to some agreement.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

to be honest upgrading the 1zz is not a solid option i was thinking of. a nice idea, but not what i'm looking for.

to be honest i think its going to be a 2zz, but how where and when is another issue.

Yeah, 2zz makes best sense IMO. I would consider building 1zz but with 2zz you get more power to start with and good reliability once the install teething troubles are out of the way. Costs more to get more.

For me, next year is when I start looking for more power.

Chris