180hp NA

Jap GT300 · December 19, 2003, 11:49

In my goal to reach at least 180hp at the flywheel without forced induction I was considering the following.

Upgrading the injectors creating a return fuel line upgrade the fuel rail and fit a presure regulator. I could then control this with the dastek unichip once it is fitted.

I know this is possible and has been done in the US and it is done on turbo setups but what are you opinions on this modification?

Thanks Adam

ps with the gtech i am currently recording 158hp

Tem · December 19, 2003, 11:56

I don't get it...why would you need more fuel? Are you running lean?

If you're not, you will only lose power, if you dump more fuel into NA engine.

Jap GT300 · December 19, 2003, 12:19

If I am changing the pistons, rods and valves would it not be to my advantage to push & burn more fuel through?

I may have got this completely wrong but it is what i understood to be a good path to go down.

markiii · December 19, 2003, 12:25

assuming you can increase airflow sufficiently to take advantage, yes.

othewise you;ll just run rich.

however unless you go forced induction it's unlikely you can suck enough air in, to require more than teh stock fuel system can cope with.

likewise with reference to our discussion on rods and valves. surely this only is of any use if you are raising the rev limit? which a Dastek can't do.

Jap GT300 · December 19, 2003, 12:57

You know that I am lacking in knowledge in this department but I am still finding it hard to understand why you will have to rasie the rev limit. If the components are stronger/lighter more efficent, surely that alone would create more hp.

With an almost ram air effect from the PPE CAI and the uprated internals surely it would increase the benefit from tuning the Dastek?

Tem · December 19, 2003, 13:01

Quote from: "Jap GT300"If the components are stronger/lighter more efficent, surely that alone would create more hp.

AFAIK, if you replace heavy parts with lighter ones, you don't actually make more hp. You just reduce the loss of it.

You won't need more fuel with lighter parts.

markiii · December 19, 2003, 13:19

Adam,

Don't take me as gospel, I'm always ready to be proved wong which is fortunate as Steve spends most of is life trying to do this) , however

Taking the Dastek, intake and stock ecu for starters,

You won't get any Ram air effect, the side vents are low pressure. The benfit the PPE brings in theory is colder air and better filtration plus a different inlet tract which may help.

unless you force induction with a turbo/supercharger there is only so much air that the na engine can suck in, if it's colder air then it's denser whihc means adding more fuel will give more power, but only to a point, the MAF only has a certain range above which it can't cope and the ecu can't compensate with more fuel. This is why Turbos tend to imploy a MAP as well.

So in short a good intake, with a good ecu will give more power to a point. I won't dispute that.

howvever, pistons only need upgrading if the existing ones can't handle the power, this assumes that you have the power in the first place. If you mean lighter pistons then arguably that requires less power wastage to move the piston however as this in turn conects to the crank the benefits are likely to be negligable, as the crank is till a fair chunk of metal.

likewise stronger rods will prevent damage from high horsepower but won't reeally aid youin making it.

Now for valves, lighter valves sound like a no brainer however. We have a cam follower and hydraulic tappets. Oil pressure forces the tappet against teh valve causing it to open. The valve springs then force it shut again once the hydraulic pressure is removed. Therefore a lighter valve will take less pressure to open, and close (be carefull you don't get valve float as teh springs will be matched to the valve weight). Based on that I don't see how lighter valves are going to make power?

As for raising the rev limiter, all of your stresses on the engine are increased teh higher you rev it. If you could rev it higher without killing the engine then you should make more power due to a higher rev limit.

However the knack is not killing your engine, this is where lighter/stronger components will help, not so much in making power but containing it without breaking something. Now if you want/need to raise the rev limitor you need something like a PowerFCto allow you to do this, I don't beleive the Dastek can. Now your downside is that because your running an SMT you can't have a full ECU replacement, you need a piggyback. Does anyone know of a piggyback that allows teh rev limiter to be raised?

hope that helps.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 13:30

I don't think you'd see power from that with NA. I think the only way you'll get 180 NA is with head work. Which I am in the middle of getting done while my car is off the road.

I'd like to be proven wrong,

Tem · December 19, 2003, 13:37

Quote from: "markiii"If you could rev it higher without killing the engine then you should make more power due to a higher rev limit.

I think you'd have to do some work before raising the rev limit does anything. If you check this dyno of a stock car, the power is already starting to drop about 500rpm before the rev limit. Higher limit wouldn't give more power.
m http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/tmp/dyno.jpg m

(I'm sure you know that, but someone reading the above might get another idea)

markiii · December 19, 2003, 14:00

Fair point Tem.

WD, have you gone for fensport in the end? I keep getting tempted, have the guaranteed you anything? I kow they were a little vague with figures, but I'd expect worse case if there is no dynoed gain or worse a degradation they should at least refund your cash. What the arragement?

Adam, assuming Ben gets the hoped for result from teh headwork Iwould expect this to be the far more cost effective way to to spend your cash.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 14:27

As you all know my car is off the road as I can't drive right now so it seemed like the best time to do it. I have yet to arrange anything concrete with Fensport but i'm taking the safe root and buying another head and sending that to them.

Costly I know, but I wanted to know I could go back to my normal head.

markiii · December 19, 2003, 14:32

I'd make sure they at least refund you if there is no gain.

Since they can't give concrete figures, remind them there are 300 eager roadster owners here hoping this gives the 30BHP they think it will.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 14:36

BUGGER BUGGER BALLS, they just rang! Spooky!

The guy that did it before no longer does head work, he's retired or something.

BUT they know someone else that can do it, they are getting me power figures and costs now. They should know in a few hours and i'll post right away, i'll sort all the details with them.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 14:52

Dear lord why don't I just buy a RX8.

markiii · December 19, 2003, 14:53

ain't that always the way.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 14:54

or a 350Z.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 14:56

Holy crap CHIMAERAs go for 15k or less.

Jap GT300 · December 19, 2003, 15:12

Quote from: "markiii"Adam,

You won't get any Ram air effect, the side vents are low pressure. The benfit the PPE brings in theory is colder air and better filtration plus a different inlet tract which may help.

You do with the monocraft s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (it has hooooge vents)

Quote from: "markiii"So in short a good intake, with a good ecu will give more power to a point. I won't dispute that.

So will additional fuel help in this situation?

Quote from: "markiii"Now for valves, lighter valves sound like a no brainer however. We have a cam follower and hydraulic tappets. Oil pressure forces the tappet against teh valve causing it to open. The valve springs then force it shut again once the hydraulic pressure is removed. Therefore a lighter valve will take less pressure to open, and close (be carefull you don't get valve float as teh springs will be matched to the valve weight). Based on that I don't see how lighter valves are going to make power?

I forgot to say it was valve and spring set, although this probably still won't be advantagous.

Quote from: "markiii"hope that helps

Yes, I'll be getting headwork done!

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 15:17

I'll be finding out about the head work in a few hours, if I don't buy a RX7 first.

markiii · December 19, 2003, 15:21

Quote from: "Jap GT300"
Quote from: "markiii"Adam,

You won't get any Ram air effect, the side vents are low pressure. The benfit the PPE brings in theory is colder air and better filtration plus a different inlet tract which may help.
You do with the monocraft s:wink: :wink: s:wink: (it has hooooge vents)
Quote from: "markiii"So in short a good intake, with a good ecu will give more power to a point. I won't dispute that.
So will additional fuel help in this situation?
Quote from: "markiii"Now for valves, lighter valves sound like a no brainer however. We have a cam follower and hydraulic tappets. Oil pressure forces the tappet against teh valve causing it to open. The valve springs then force it shut again once the hydraulic pressure is removed. Therefore a lighter valve will take less pressure to open, and close (be carefull you don't get valve float as teh springs will be matched to the valve weight). Based on that I don't see how lighter valves are going to make power?
I forgot to say it was valve and spring set, although this probably still won't be advantagous.
Quote from: "markiii"hope that helps
Yes, I'll be getting headwork done!

hmmn, forgot about the monocraft, that may help a little but unless the filter is right in the airflow it's still not really RAM. ref fuel, only if teh stock injectors have maxed out. Which is unlikely, you should find this out when the unichip is setup, so I'd wait until then and see if you really need it.

I still wouldn't bother with the valves but if your going to have headwork doen that wuld be teh time to to it as most of the labour will be the same.

Anonymous · December 19, 2003, 16:31

Holly crap. Fensport reckon the new guy says about 10-20bhp and will charge £1200! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

I'm not paying that, I could get a 3rd Gen RX7 from Jimmys RXs for 10k with new breaks, rubber and a engine re-build.

markiii · December 19, 2003, 16:35

as opposed to the previous chap who quoted £350 for 30bhp, thats taking the piss.

I'd see if anyone at IMOC know who the old guy is and approach him directly see if you can persuade him.

anyone out there knwo anywhere that does headwork at REALSITIC prices?

Tem · December 21, 2003, 18:41

Quote from: "markiii"anyone out there knwo anywhere that does headwork at REALSITIC prices?

Anyone interested in shipping a head to Finland...?

Jap GT300 · December 22, 2003, 10:29

How much of the engine is regarded as the "head"?

Is it just the the 5" or so of the top that includes the plugs and throttle body etc?

Anonymous · December 22, 2003, 11:32

Quote from: "Jap GT300"How much of the engine is regarded as the "head"?

Is it just the the 5" or so of the top that includes the plugs and throttle body etc?

Just about, but it can depend on what they are doing to it. Just porting and polishing will be fine, but if they do anything to the cams....

BUT I would be interested Tem, what do you have in mind?