180hp NA

[aaronjb]

I've gotta say - my guesstimate on the kind of gains you'd get from a straight port & polish on a modern Japanese head would be more down the 10-20bhp end than the 30bhp.. Heck - even on heavily turbocharged Japanese cars you only get fairly modest gains, and we're talking NA here..

Unless of course the previous Fensport guy happened to know that the intake & exhaust tracts on the 1zzfe heads are terrible, and full of casting flash..

The higher price could also feasibly include valve work - so it would be worth finding out exactly what they're planning on doing for that price.. If it included valve work, the larger valves & seat lapping etc, then that might not be too bad a price..

'Head' btw, generally refers to everything above where the pistons stop at TDC (Top Dead Centre), which is where the headgasket will be too - however it usually excludes the exhaust manifold & intake manifold. Best to get these ground & matched at the same time, as well as any metal gaskets, for best gasflow. A good headjob will include flowtesting too.

Just my £0.02..

Aaron

[Anonymous]

You are right, but in the beginning Fensport had quoted us £300 - £500 and I had decided for £300 even if I only got 10bhp out of it i'd be happy.  I'm not paying over 1k for it, I could get 10bhp from a manifold and CAT removal.

I also think someone got 20bhp from a Dat chip, right?

[aaronjb]

No arguments there  s:) s:)  £300-500 sounds like a simple port & polish, whereas £1000 upwards sounds to me more like a port, polish, valve work, exhaust & intake hone & match and a check-for-true & skim of the head..

Which is probably (almost certainly) overkill, unless you're struggling for the very last bhp out of the engine.

I certainly wouldn't go to all that trouble without having a decent engine management unit in there, and if you were spending a grand on head work, I'd say you'd be looking at another £1500 on a MoTeC or similar anyway..

I.e. you'd be in 'money is no object'-land  s:) s:)

I'll shut up now  s;) s;)

Aaron

[Tem]

Unless of course the previous Fensport guy happened to know that the intake & exhaust tracts on the 1zzfe heads are terrible, and full of casting flash..

Actually they are kinda crappy...let me see if I can find those pics...

[SteveJ]

I also think someone got 20bhp from a Dat chip, right?

Martin (aka mph) got 159bhp from his NA using a Dastek UniChip, and an a'Pexi intake. No other mods.

This was prior to the turbo which in current guise is developing 220bhp - which was more than enough to generate some very 'interesting' moments at Castle Coombe last weekend - sorry about the mud and grass on the back of the car Martin  s:( s:(

[markiii]

it's when theirs skid marks on teh roof you need to worry.

[Tem]

Here we go...remember that 1ZZ is a crappy cheapo budget engine, meant to be produced for as cheaply as possible and to be used in grocery getters...

[Anonymous]

Yes as Tem pointed out our head is a POS.  If you want high NA power you HAVE to start looking at the head first, even if it's just to make sure the engine can take it.

EDIT ** I wouldnt be surpized if head work didnt give us 15-20bhp, but i'll be expecting 10.

[markiii]

Ben,

Are you basing that based upon port and polish? or the whole kaboodle?

[Anonymous]

Ben,

Are you basing that based upon port and polish? or the whole kaboodle?

Which bit?  The 20bhp?  No I think a little cam work would need to be done to get that much power.  My point is that Fensport claimed this for about a year for £300 to £400 and now they say over 1k for 10bhp.  Which has basically peed me off.

I think someone who knew what they are doing could get 10bhp from our head without much effort, and I still think you have to start here if you want good reliable NA power.

[markiii]

well if a port and polish, for £350ish could yield 10bhp that would still be better value than any mod other than the unichip todate.

Trouble is would need to be out of warranty to do it, and I hate to thik what else they would find stripping it down  s:-( :-( s:-(

Tem,

Was your question implying you know someone in Finland who can do this for that kind of price?

EDITED DUE TO GEOGRAPHICAL INEPTITUDE

[Anonymous]

Trouble is would need to be out of warranty to do it, and I hate to thik what else they would find stripping it down  s:-( :-( s:-(

A Cabbage?

[markiii]

with this engine, anythigs possible   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

speak to Japspeed.  I'm sure that Simon mentioned that he knew a good 'headman'

[Tem]

Tem,

Was your question implying you know someone in Finland who can do this for that kind of price?

Well, yes and no...I know someone who has done a great job on other Toyota engines, but never worked on a 1ZZ, so he can't promise +x hp in advance.

[Jap GT300]

 m http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9005 m

Rob of No Limits is selling three 1ZZ heads via this link!

[markiii]

any ide how much he wants for them?

by the time they've been shipped it may be cheaper to source in the UK, does anyone have an exact descriptio of what the head consists of such that if asking a scrappy we'd know what to ask for?

Is teh corrolla head the same?

[Jap GT300]

I can get the whole engine from MJ's in Thurrock for £350 (not including computer or box)

[markiii]

If I had teh cash I'd buy that just to keep as a spare.

If we can find someone to do the headwork it would be worth it.

Then get that head done swap it, and send off the next one.

[Anonymous]

1zz head-2zz intake.  Could fit with some angle milling and port work.  May make top end power.  May kill the bottom end.  May kill both ends but worth some investigating IMHO.




2zz intake gasket on a 1zz head






Just a thought I would love to explore but will never get around to.

[Anonymous]

grr I just never know whether I can be bothered with this engine.

[Anonymous]

2zz swap  s8) s8)

[juansolo]

This all depends what you're setting out to achieve, how deep your pockets are and mainly why you're going this route.

N/A tuning is VERY expensive to do properly.  Simply replacing crank, rods and pistons with steel will not give you a jump in power, or at least not a significant one.  What it will do is significantly strengthen the bottom end of your engine and providing your block is up to it, allow you to raise the rev limit of the engine.  

While you are at the bottom end and you're serious about doing this properly you will also want to eliminate windage.  This is when, on a wet sumped car, the crank as it turns dips into the oil in the sump.  Now you know what happens when you drive through a big puddle in your car and the dragging effect and slow down it can cause, that is exactly the same as what is going on in the bottom of your engine as it spins.  You can get by this with a properly designed sump with a windage tray or the perfect solution is to run the engine dry sumped and in a vacuum.

Now we've got a nice bottom end with shiny pistons in it with big pockets in them to allow the valves to open further you'll want to port and flow the head.  Then, as you're revving higher, switch to solid lifters and any valve mods that may be necessary.  Finally you can fit those mental cams you've been itching for.

So we have a mental engine that can rev like a bastard and now needs to ram more air & fuel in faster and get it out again in a non-restrictive manner.  Induction first.  Being this serious, tapered throttle boddies are the only option.  Suck and fuel tastic (you'll more than likely need to uprate your fuel system).  To control them you are going to need a fully mappable ecu and preferably have it professionally mapped on an engine dyno (as opposed to a rolling road.  The R/R should really only be used for fine tuning/correcting any issues after the engine has been installed).  Then of course you'll need a properly designed exhaust.  A jonny big-bore kit will not suffice.

After all that you can then look to your transmission.  Lighter flywheel to make it rev more freely, might need an uprated clutch.  Might want to change the gearing or CWP to better take advantage of the different power chacteristics you now have.

Finally after all that, you will be in possession of a proper honest to god race engine with all the baggage that comes along with it (anyone who thinks you can treat an engine in this state of tune like a standard road car engine is in for a very expensive suprise).

If that is your goal, good on ya.  Just don't exect it to be cheap.  To build an engine like the above is going to cost thousands to do it properly which is when we get to the point of what you are trying to achive.

The common cry I hear from most people is "I want more power!".  My next question is always "why?"  

Someone once said that you can never have too much power...  I personally think you can.  The problem is that in the pursuit of power you can end up sacrificing many things but the main two are reliability and balance.  There is a stage where the brakes, chassis, suspension, etc simply cannot handle the power that you are asking them to deal with and the balance of the car is destroyed and ultimately it's not a pleasant experience.  

The fastest thing I've ever driven is an S2000 powered Westfield.  It's knocking on the door of 500bhp/ton of pure violence.  It's brutal in a way that nothing else I've ever driven is.  Calling it a handful is an understatement.  It is a absolute scream to drive in small doses as it has reality warping performance.  But I would always choose to drive mine over it with it's modest (in comparison) 330bhp/ton.  It's far better balanced and much more exploitable.

...and this is my point.  Are you wanting to race where every single bhp counts?  Are you wanting a little more overtaking grunt on the road?  Do you want more power but want it to be reliable on the track?  How deep are your pockets?

Most people want the power on the road, they want it cheaply and are unlikely to stress there engines too much.  This is where the strap-on F/I kit rules.   A big wodge of torque low down that will push you into the back into your seat and feel like you're flying.  A N/A tune will not give you this effect and to make progress you are going to have to paste it everywhere.  Though it may be, it will not feel as fast and you'll have to work the gearbox a lot more to get the most out of it.

But, N/A is far more desireable on track as it's far more adjustable and you'll be in the powerband all day anyhow.  But unless you have ego issues and must be the fastest car around the circuit or you are racing, I'd argue that the car is quick enough and you'd actually be better upgrading the driver with training.  

When you do finally get the urge to want to go quicker, then at that point I'd consider a dedicated track machine that will be far ahead in performance to any modded road car and most supercars for that matter.  All for under £10k.

So you want the best of both worlds, you want an N/A engine, reliability and a big slug of power.  The only way to win here is to transplant the engine with a new one (preferably stock) that satisfies your power and weight requirements.  This is why many people with Elises are swapping to Honda power.  In standard trim it's producing more power and torque with a much wider power band than a K-Series tuned to the same level.  Reletive pricing is the same (about £10k for a conversion or a properly done 200bhp K-Series).  Yep you can make a K go faster.  But the Honda is stock and designed to do 100,000 miles with 10k servicing.  The K will need a strip down and rebuild costing a couple of thousand quid on a fairly regular basis depending on use.

The last option is to simply buy a faster car.  When you mod a car and it comes to re-sale you will NOT recoup your outlay.  If anything it may even devalue the car.  This is the sad reality of it.  If you want to go quicker, buy an S2000.  Quicker still? a TVR.  You can pick up them up for not much more than a Mr2 (older TVRs can be less).




All IMO of course  s:) s:)


Edited to add:  I'm not intentionally trying to be contentious.  Just sometimes it can be fun   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[filcee]

Juansolo,

Fantastic post!  If only I had half your insight into this ...

Someone once said that you can never have too much power... I personally think you can. The problem is that in the pursuit of power you can end up sacrificing many things but the main two are reliability and balance. There is a stage where the brakes, chassis, suspension, etc simply cannot handle the power that you are asking them to deal with and the balance of the car is destroyed and ultimately it's not a pleasant experience.

I agree - but for different reasons.  I suspect your post is meant to be general, but I'm going to take this slightly out of contect and consider the '2.  Frankly, I like it just as it is.  I find it quick enough, with just enough of that 'real driving experience' to make my heart beat quicker, and after all, that is what I wanted out of a car (any car).  Which brings me onto another point you make:

I'd argue that the car is quick enough and you'd actually be better upgrading the driver with training.

100% agree.  I'd like a driver upgrade please!  I'm very aware that I'm not fully capable of exploiting the car in standard form, and that I should really have this mastered before I attempt anything in the way of tuning mods.  Of course, I use the car on a daily basis, and expect to cover anything up to 25k a year in it, so the mods would not have to sacrifice reliability (see above).  Quite a difficult balance to achieve, I think.  Perhaps I should consider this in the (extememly - read retirement) long term:

dedicated track machine

Money and time permitting of course!

[Jap GT300]

+ The honda S2000 has the most powerful 2.0 engine (NA) Ever produced by a car manufacturer

240bhp  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  That is impressive

Also I love the way the VTEC cuts in like turbo at about 5k revs and keeps going to 9k!