180hp NA

[Tem]

why it wouldn't last long at 180hp?

I'm already worried that mine won't last long at 140hp  s:? :? s:?

[mph]

Why are you posting turbo remarks to a reply that I made to a 180 NA post?  The reply is in response to to someone suggesting that 180 NA might be possible on the 1ZZ without headwork.  You won't get easily get the 1ZZ to 180bhp NA without headwork and if you DID some how manage to get 180bhp without some gentle forced induction I don't see the head lasting for long.

Maybe we misunderstand each other - I wasn't trying to compare NA to turbo: I'm trying to consider what would fail on the head trying to reach 180 NA. What is likely to fail?

I can't see changing the cam duration being a killer, and if you're not messing with the head, I can't see you messing with the bottom end to increase compression. I can see upping the rev limiter might make the head get very unhappy, or at least the valve springs, but other than that, what have I missed?

[MadMigMR2]

Let's just get one thing straight

Our engine has 2 problems

- first: there was some engines blocks that had a factory problem and they cause a engine fail, after some miles.
My car had that after i did 60000KM
I made an oil change at 58000KM
And after 2000KM there was no oil in it.
Solution: Complete new block with internals, new version with everything checked and some things have changed on the internals (this was told me by the spanish mecanic that changed my engine.
I was going to germany on vacations and 600km after i left home the engine failed because there was no oil in it.

Check the care and maintenance posts on spyderchat.com for a longer description


- second: our engine doesn't make very much rpm without having problems (valves and internals damaged)

A friend of mine, owner of a red mr2 that is on other topic some images.
Had to shift from 4rd gear at around 180KM/H to 3rd gear and then 2nd gear, to save him from a crash. He fortunatly had the reflections to do this and he didn't crashed.
with that breaking with the gears the car made probably 9000rpm or more.
And because of that it had the valves and internals damaged.
His engine had oil in it and the only problem was the excess of rpm's


AND I BET THAT 50% OF THE CASES OF ENGINE FAILURE AROUND THE WORLD ARE BECAUSE OF HIS OWNER THAT MAKES THE CAR REACH THIS RPMS WITH STUPID GEAR CHANGES OR TO SAVE HIM FROM SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I DESCRIBED ABOVE!

If our car engine was so bad why tte was making a turbo kit that doesn't modify anything inside the engine.


And one more thing, and engine head work (port & polish doesn't make any bad to an engine. It's good for an engine to have the exhaust and intake chambers clean and smooth.   s:idea: :idea: s:idea:  

I'm not making this right now because i'm waiting for the end of warranty.
Because i know that port & polish is the way to go.

You can put a great intake and a great exhaust system, but if the restriction on the engine head it's still there, there aren't so many improvements.


It's like my exhaust system right now.
I have a good header
I have a good exhaust
In the middle there is a stock main cat


Yes there is a improvement, but if i change the cat to a high flow cat or remove it, then i will have an even greater result!!


My suggestion is, wait for my car and jap gt300 results.
And then maybee you will understand what i'm talking about.   s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:  

Best Regards for everyone and an happy 2004 with 180HP or more (TTE Turbo)

This will be THE year for our car, you will see...

I expect to be eating for break-fast S2000 by the end of the summer!!!   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

Sorry MPH I didn't see your reply, I didn't mean to ignore you...

But first...

Let's just get one thing straight
Our engine has 2 problems

er we must be using different engines, because we have way more than 2 problems with it.  Low rev pinging, timing chains, pre-cats, bad sports exhaust to name but a few.  The 1ZZ is a economy engine it was made to be cheap, very cheap, TO cheap.  Its light and gives a good 140bhp and suits the light '2 but it is not built to be a sports car engine and is not built for more power.

If our car engine was so bad why tte was making a turbo kit that doesn't modify anything inside the engine.

And when do we get to see this turbo?  Do you really think anyone working directly for Toyota would come out and honestly say "sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?  I know two people working for Toyota both of them in respectable positions and I was told Toyota do know about the problems with the MR2 but are keeping quiet.  As I understand it when Lampka tried to turbo other cars they ended up with more and more problems.

Anyway I have already stated that I think a well set up turbo on a 1ZZ is a much better idea than pushing over 180bhp NA and to try 180NA without using headwork as a starting point is just asking for trouble.  Of course i'm sure you'll make it to 180bhp and hopefully have no problems with it.  I stated on SC that I could get a easy 170bhp NA from this engine, then I took it apart and put it back together and decided not to waste my time, as did Little Rocket and a few other people.

And one more thing, and engine head work (port & polish doesn't make any bad to an engine. It's good for an engine to have the exhaust and intake chambers clean and smooth.

I'm not sure I understand your point with this as THIS is my point also... just about anyway...

I expect to be eating for break-fast S2000 by the end of the summer!!!

And they will still sit happy in the knowledge that they have a beautiful well thought out engine that isn't likely to explode instead of a "way to cheap" engine that Toyota used to save money instead of using a de-tunned 2ZZ.

AND I BET THAT 50% OF THE CASES OF ENGINE FAILURE AROUND THE WORLD ARE BECAUSE OF HIS OWNER THAT MAKES THE CAR REACH THIS RPMS WITH STUPID GEAR CHANGES OR TO SAVE HIM FROM SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I DESCRIBED ABOVE!

I also think that this is fantasy, sorry.  Many people of all types have a had engine problems.  From Exboyracer, who really WAS a race driver to people that drove the car at 40mph everywhere to the shops.  A month before my car went off the road Toyota told me my CATs are fine, and I check them now and they have started to fall apart.  I don't know if Toyota lied but either way i'm pissed off.  

I still think you'll get to 180bhp and maybe even without problems, but if you took a 1000 MR2s and did the same thing, I bet more would come back with problems than would drive on past the 80,000 mark.

I love my MR2, but the engine is terrible I don't care because its not the first time i've run a sports car with a engine i'm always looking at.  In fact when it comes down to the little things like not starting or oil leaks its very good, but I am annoyed because this time its my only car.

[Anonymous]

why it wouldn't last long at 180hp?

I'm already worried that mine won't last long at 140hp  s:? :? s:?

Mine hasn't it would seem.  At least its off the road and I can do something about it.

[Tem]

A friend of mine, owner of a red mr2 that is on other topic some images. Had to shift from 4rd gear at around 180KM/H to 3rd gear and then 2nd gear, to save him from a crash.


AND I BET THAT 50% OF THE CASES OF ENGINE FAILURE AROUND THE WORLD ARE BECAUSE OF HIS OWNER THAT MAKES THE CAR REACH THIS RPMS WITH STUPID GEAR CHANGES OR TO SAVE HIM FROM SITUATIONS LIKE THE ONE I DESCRIBED ABOVE!

Just curious, what happened to your friend? Apparently he lost the brakes, but could you tell more?


I'M 100% SURE THAT I HAVEN'T OVER-REVVED MY ENGINE  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
I've hit the limiter several times though, but that shouldn't kill the engine. If it does, the limiter is in a wrong place for this engine in this car.

[Slacey]

I've hit the limiter several times though, but that shouldn't kill the engine. If it does, the limiter is in a wrong place for this engine in this car.

If that's the case, then I'm knackered...  s:? :? s:?

[Jap GT300]

Do you really think anyone working directly for Toyota would come out and honestly say "sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?  

Yes

[Anonymous]

Do you really think anyone working directly for Toyota would come out and honestly say "sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?  

Yes

Who?

Which Toyota sponsored company has ever included in its sales pitch "we'll give you a little more power but thats your lot dudes and its going to cost you so start saving"?

The 1ZZ is not a engine modern engine that can be tunned like a modern engine.  For that i'd buy a VAG engine and stick a chip in it for 40bhp extra.

Not that I care about the 1ZZ, people keep jumping to the defence of the car like im calling it a lump of crap.  Its a amazing little roadster, but the engine is a POS.  Simple.  It is.  This all started because I stated it.

Do you think 80's Ferrari's had really good engines?  What about 80's Lotus?

But to ignore the fact that the 1ZZ is a POS and start tunning it is not a good idea.

[Anonymous]

thats why i m planning to put 2zz in instead


sam

[Jap GT300]

"sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?

I was replying yes to this.  

I agree and know that this engine has some awful design flaws and was made on the cheap but that doesn't mean you can't make it better.  

Internals, port & polish then increase rev limit.  Thats all i'm after and I know it will cost £££

[Anonymous]

"sorry the 1ZZ really is a POS but we'll do what we can"?

I was replying yes to this.  

I agree and know that this engine has some awful design flaws and was made on the cheap but that doesn't mean you can't make it better.  

Internals, port & polish then increase rev limit.  Thats all i'm after and I know it will cost £££

I wish you all the luck with it  s:) s:)   I think a port and polish will do more for the engine than any other one thing can.  I curse Toyota for not just putting a slightly de-tunned 2ZZ in, it has similar weight, and fits right in.

[MadMigMR2]

Ho boy this will take some time to reply   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

But it's for a good cause.

I'm just curious.
How many of you have the engine replaced on 2003?

I'm asking this because my engine was replaced in August 2003 and the engine i have now is a revised one.
And i don't know when they started to replace the stock head with this new one.

Once again i will start to explain why our engine have problems.
This was explained to me by an engineer from toyota (off the record)

Some engine heads of our engine has a small error of 7 microns (0,007 milimeters).

This diference is at the begining.
With some miles on the car, this diference starts to rise, until the moment, that the car consumes some oil

The oil then is burned and goes through the cats and passes on the  lambda sensors.
Because of the oil, the sensors starts indicating to the ECU that the mixture is rich (but it's not, it's because of the oil that the sensor is thinking that), Then the ECU starts delivering less fuel, that is real necessary, and you start burning a mixture of more air/oil than air/fuel.
This will cause a bad explosion and the fast detioration of the cats.
And when you damage the baby cats ceramic, the glass fiber that is around the ceramic loses up the baby cat and goes to the main cat.
Has you know, glass fiber doesn't burn, so it will obstruct the 3rd cat, and the car will start to loose acceleration.



you can read all my story on this topic.
http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6375

[Tem]

I'm just curious.
How many of you have the engine replaced on 2003?


Some engine heads of our engine has a small error of 7 microns (0,007 milimeters).

Mine was replaced last year...no idea if it's a new or old or what...

But you have to be kidding about 0.007 MILLImeters difference? That sounds like a normal tolerance for F1 engines.

Maybe 0.7 millimeters would be in the right area for normal engines...

[mph]

Thinking out loud, you may have a flaw in your theory:

My understanding is that of your theory is that the engine is runs lean, this over heats the pre-CATs and causes the chain of events as we expect them.

If oil is contaminating the O2 sensors and that contamination makes them err on reading on the rich side, it's a good theory and I'll buy it.

However, I think the oil will be burning off completely and not contaminating the sensors. In which case the sensors will still be trimming the fuel but I believe only by an equivilent to that of oil that is being burnt to keep the engine at stoich. In which case, the system isn't going lean and therefore not overheating. You might be running the car on a petrol/oil mixture which won't be doing it any favours, but doesn't fit your theory so neatly. Worse, at the point you're burning so much oil at you hit the limit that the ECU will trim fuel back, the system you'll go rich and you'll throw a CEL, not a CAT...

  s:?: :?: s:?:    s:?: :?: s:?:    s:?: :?: s:?:

[MadMigMR2]

that theory isn't a theory is the explanation that this engineer from toyota gave me.

And don't forget that the 0,007 milimeters don't stay 0,007 milemeters afters some miles.
It starts to raise, till the moment the oil starts to pass through the cilinders in to the explosion chamber and then through the exhaust system.
My exhaust was very black when i stopped the car after i started to hear the engine noise problem.

Just some mores facts to add to this conversation
My car was with the oil level below minimum. No light came up before i start to hear the engine noise problem, the oil light we have is for oil pressure, not oil level.

I have did a oil change 2500KM before i had the problem on the car.
It's impossible our car consuming almost 4 liters of oil in that KM'S in normal conditions.

Just curious, what happened to your friend? Apparently he lost the brakes, but could you tell more?


I'M 100% SURE THAT I HAVEN'T OVER-REVVED MY ENGINE  
I've hit the limiter several times though, but that shouldn't kill the engine. If it does, the limiter is in a wrong place for this engine in this car.

He just entered a curve to fast and the front was going to crash.
He had to use the gears to break with the engine also.
And He over revved hard.

I also push my car to the rev limiter several times.

[Tem]

He just entered a curve to fast and the front was going to crash.
He had to use the gears to break with the engine also.

I don't get it.

If his brakes were ok, surely he could've stopped with them? Engine braking doesn't bring any extra braking power, if the brakes are ok...

Or am I missing something here..?

[Tem]

And don't forget that the 0,007 milimeters don't stay 0,007 milemeters afters some miles.

I was just browsing some other pages and realized he must've meant 0,007 inches...

 m http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech ... t3stright/ m

[Anonymous]

And don't forget that the 0,007 milimeters don't stay 0,007 milemeters afters some miles.

I was just browsing some other pages and realized he must've meant 0,007 inches...

 m http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech ... t3stright/ m

Yeah 0,007 millimetres seems, well... not right, that seems way way way to small.  God knows how they would even detect that.

Also explain the CAT problem doesn't take away the fact that it happens, it also doesn't stop the 1ZZ being a rather naff little engine for a rather nice little car to be stuck with.  I'd take a Rover K any day over the 1ZZ.

But i'd take a F355 over my MR2 as well, but that doesn't mean its going to happen   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Anonymous]

The last thing I'd want to do when entering a bend too fast is to relenquish more rear end grip by dropping it down a few gears and bolloxing my engine and exiting the bend looking through the rear window all at the same time. I simply have to marvel at the shear genius of this recovery strategy.

If you want to stop quickly you want to be applying force through the front wheels, preferably with the braking system, that is of course assuming that the vehicle was travelling forwards towards the bend. If you're going to downchange to such an extent that your engine is scrap you may as well pull the handbrake and make life easy for yourself.  s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

[MadMigMR2]

About the mesure

1 micrometer = 0,001 milimeters
he told me 7 micrometers = 0,007 milimeters

I imagine that this is small, but from what he told me, with some km's in it this diference will raise to a much higher value.


RUSTY
Let me explain better what happened and then you will reply to me how you would save from this situation

You are exiting from a high way to enter another and you have a open curve before you start enter the new highway.

You enter on that curve in 4rd gear at 180KM/H

What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure.

Just to help you i will give you a tip: if you only break you will continue to understeer and you will crash.

[Tem]

I imagine that this is small, but from what he told me, with some km's in it this diference will raise to a much higher value.

Yes, but even if you start with 0,000000 micrometers, the gap will be over 0,007 millimeters after the first run.


"What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure."

Use the brakes, just a bit. It transfers weight to front wheels making them grip. (also makes the ass lighter, so be careful about not losing it)

Still don't get it though...if he had time to slow the car down with engine, it sounds like he had enough time to slow down with brakes as well. I guess I just don't get it  s8) s8)

[Jap GT300]

Let me explain better what happened and then you will reply to me how you would save from this situation

You are exiting from a high way to enter another and you have a open curve before you start enter the new highway.

You enter on that curve in 4rd gear at 180KM/H

What You do when you see the front of the car loosing grip and you see that if you don't do anything you will crash for sure.

Just to help you i will give you a tip: if you only break you will continue to understeer and you will crash.

I have to agree.

Driving at the complete limit with the car already losing front end grip your best option would be to drop it a gear forcing traction back into the rear wheels.

The only other thing you could possibly do is drop clutch to maybe force the arse round, but that doesn't work above 40mph.

Both braking or accelerating in the current gear would push you in a straight line and not around the bend.

Now would be a good time for one of you guys that did driver training to butt in.

[Tem]

Driving at the complete limit with the car already losing front end grip your best option would be to drop it a gear forcing traction back into the rear wheels.

Hmmmm...if you're at the limit, or actually way beyond it, and the car starts to understeer, how can you get traction back to rear wheels, when you never lost traction in the rear?


Maybe it's just me, but this sounds just crazy. Find an open place. Get the car to 100kmh on 2nd, keep it in 2nd but hold the clutch pedal down. Turn so much that the front loses grip. Release the clutch. Before doing it, guess what happens:
1) You slow down, get traction to sliding front and clear the "corner".
2) You upset the car, get massive oversteer/spin and "go straight out of the road"

Then do the same, but instead of releasing the clutch, gently touch the brakes.

[Anonymous]

Tem is right.  We also a very good ABS system for this.  EBD on the '03 makes it even better.