Crower Cams, Apexi & A Zero

[Wabbitkilla]

Nic - you don't need the commander, I suppose, but I like the ability to do the logging and graphing without needing to plug a laptop in (and buy the Datalogit, of course)

Got nothing to do with having a fancy display on the dash somewhere of course  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Many options, i guess for Alex and I in particular it comes down to when/if Trust will have a v-Manage available and how much it will be. Would be an interesting option to find out

[DannyN]

Nic - you don't need the commander, I suppose,

Got nothing to do with having a fancy display on the dash somewhere of course  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Its a pain trying to find somewhere to stick the bl00dy thing!
I've currently got it velcro'd to the dash just to the left of the steering wheel but that means I cant see it properly when driving


As for the price of the cams I will have a look for the receipt tonight.

I took the price off all my items in the garage for 2 reasons,

1)I couldn't believe how much I had spent!
2)I didnt want 'er indoors' to see how much I had spent!!

[ChrisGB]

I am now seriously into the idea of the Crower cams in the otherwise stock engine. E Manage blue would be my preference for mapping. The torque seems to fall off quite steeply once peak is passed, as would be expected with the 4>2>1 manifold. Both yourself and Rob seem to lose around 20lb/ft going up toward peak power. I am very curious as to how the torque will tail off with the PPE setup. I may be able to see a conservative 140lb/ft in the midrange, but if that only drops around 6lb/ft by peak power (as it does at the moment with stock everything else), that would leave me with 173 bhp. Definitely worth a punt.

Need to start saving now. That kind of output makes for good BHP/£ ratio compared to 2ZZ swap.

Chris

Hi Chris

Spoke with Crower about the expected increases from the cams, they estimate about 8 to 10 BHP increase and the same for torque. Where does the 173 BHP come from?

Rob

Well in basic terms if I get a 10% increase in torque at 6800rpm I am looking at over 173bhp, but to go into more detail of the estimate:

The fundamental difference between yours and Dannys setup and mine is the type of exhaust manifold. The Zero manifold makes more midrange torque, but this falls off by around 20lb/ft between peak torque at 4500rpm and peak power. The PPE is making less torque at 4500rpm, but it only drops around 6lb/ft at peak power, which is also generated another 400rpm up the rev counter.

As I currently make 125lb/ft at just under 6800rpm, if the addition of some sort of management and the cams net me 10% in total, that equates to a decent 137lb/ft at 6800 rpm. I don't expect to see quite that much at the top end, as I am sure something else in the system will knock that down a bit, but given the fact that the fundamental shape of the torque curve seems unaffected by the cams, it would not be unreasonable to expect to see maybe enough torque to carry over 170bhp. Remember also that at present I have no engine management mods and am making 157bhp.

I really don't know how much power it will make, but the results from Danny's car are very encouraging. If I can take similar improvements with the PPE setup, 170bhp+ is not unrealistic. I need to speak to Chris at Hypersports really to see what engine management I need to buy. Could be that vvti adjustment is really playing a part, could be that stock vvti point will be fine.

For the spending involved, it is a decent power gain that may stave off the need for more for a while at least and it wont break the bank, unlike a 2zz swap that I am also seriously considering.

I cannot wait to see how yours goes as well.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Chris

I'm not convinced you will see that increase at the peak power, remember the Crower stage one's are designed for low to mid range increases, which is reflected in both Danny's and my figures - we both have approximately 130ftlbs at peak power (6800rpm) which really confirms where the cams are doing their work.

I think Chris sets our rev limiter at about 7000rpm just for info.

[ChrisGB]

Chris

I'm not convinced you will see that increase at the peak power, remember the Crower stage one's are designed for low to mid range increases, which is reflected in both Danny's and my figures - we both have approximately 130ftlbs at peak power (6800rpm) which really confirms where the cams are doing their work.

I think Chris sets our rev limiter at about 7000rpm just for info.

I reckon the cams will allow better top end breathing that stock. They are mild cams, but will achieve gains across the mid and upper range by virtue of longer duration and lift. If the cams were aimed at low to mid power, they would look like stock or even less lift / duration.

Your graph does not show much convergence between pre and post mapping at the top end, so there are no obvious restrictions up there on your setup, so the shape of the torque curve is pretty much set. Danny's curve shows a similar profile, raised up a few ft/lbs. If the cams raise my torque profile in a similar way,  I should see decent power. To be honest, I would be happy with 165bhp, which someone on SC has seen with PPE and emanage on stock cam, but feel there is room for more. I have 157 at the moment, so combining cam and ecu work, I am looking for a total of maybe + 10% I would appreciate a bit more mid range wallop as well.

The "problem" with the PPE setup is being 4>1 it works better at higher revs, so I don't expect 150 lb/ft in the midrange. However, unlike the Zero setup, it drops 6lb/ft torque at high rpms, (as opposed to around 20 with the Zero setup) so in theory should make more top end. It is the classic difference between 4>1 and 4>2>1 setups.

Of course, something else may limit output before we get past the 170 mark, but we will have to wait and see. I think that for the level of investment, it is worth a punt. I need to collect my pennies for a while (just paid out for BC coilovers), but am almost definitely going for this setup. Will report when all is fitted and dynoed.

Chris

[ChrisGB]

Chris

I'm not convinced you will see that increase at the peak power, remember the Crower stage one's are designed for low to mid range increases, which is reflected in both Danny's and my figures - we both have approximately 130ftlbs at peak power (6800rpm) which really confirms where the cams are doing their work.

I think Chris sets our rev limiter at about 7000rpm just for info.

I reckon the cams will allow better top end breathing that stock. They are mild cams, but will achieve gains across the mid and upper range by virtue of longer duration and lift. If the cams were aimed at low to mid power, they would look like stock or even less lift / duration.

Chris

Looking at the cam specs, it would appear that they do indeed have lessduration than stock, but higher and faster lift. This bodes well for low end (less overlap) and well for high end (stronger scavenging pulses). The cams look like they will add across the range, even if it is less at the top end. Still reckon it to be worth a go. Must save up.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Chris

It's a good time to buy at the moment, Crower's from MWR are $425 plus postage, with todays exchange rate you are looking at just of £200 - now that's a very good price   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Rob.

[northernalex]

Certainly is a good price rob... if its ok.. how much are you quoted for fitting and mapping?

[Anonymous]

Just brought my cams £254 including delivery to the UK - that's a great price.

Alex - I've been quote 2 - 3 hours installation but unsure of the mapping, would expect that to be again on an hourly rate. It's about £45 per hour I think at Hyper.

[DannyN]

Just for info calculated my mpg to (if my maths works properly) be around 32 -33.
Thats mainly urban driving and a bit of spirited weekend stuff

D

[Chris]

danny, or anyone else that knows, are these cams compatible with any future turbo/super charged power upgrades?

[Anonymous]

Compatible? Yes. Ideal? Probably not, as these are designed for N/A engines rather than FI ones (although I do believe MWR do a set of cams for a turbo engine, I think!).

[Tem]

I do believe MWR do a set of cams for a turbo engine, I think!

They do and they do work with a turbo.  s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: