Precat-related engine death

Jaik · November 25, 2007, 22:27

Quote from: "fergusreid12"I take the earlier points about seeing it from Toyotas point of view but basically I would expected a car that has been serviced regularly to last more that 116000 miles ( I have a 30 year old vw which has been round the clock and never needed an engine rebuild). Essentially this is a design fault and i feel a bit agrieved about it.

I know exactly how you feel, but from what I got out of their customer relations team on the phone, if you car is outside the 7 years and the mileage limit (which I thought was 112000 or so for some reason) then they won't do anything to help you out with it.

From the estimate I got from Toyota for the work, getting a reliable independent garage to fit a reconditioned engine would be the cheaper option. Maybe the time for a 2ZZ swap if you're that way inclined (forcefully making every cloud have a silver lining) s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

Anonymous · November 26, 2007, 10:51

Quote from: "heathstimpson"
Quote from: "darbiz"my car is November 2001 60,100 but has only 16 and 20k toyota services could I get the work done on the 7 year warranty then?

darbiz s:? :? s:?
I would guess that Toyota would want to see a full dealership service history to stand a chance of getting a new engine on a six year old car. If your not loosing power at higher revs or drinking oil then I wouldn't worry yourself over a dead engine to be honest s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Just a reminder that I got my 40,000 mile, 6 year old engine fixed under the goodwill warranty with only 50% service history - not all of which was done at Toyota.

However, before they would agree to pay for the work I did have to give them the go ahead to start work so they could investigate inside the engine for "signs of damage caused by lack of servicing", the service guy assured me that even the slightest sign of oval pistons and the work would be covered under the warranty. I (and they) was confident enough that it was the piston problem so I gave them the go ahead although it could have cost me a lot if it hadn't been the piston issue s:!: :!: s:!:

Darbiz - until you get the code it's impossible to say but I'd hazard a guess that you have the legendary O2 sensor problem which really is nothing to worry about. Oh, get the pre-cats out, you don't need them and it's much better to do it manually than have them desintegrate by themselves like mine did! Keep checking the oil level and whip it into MrT if it looks to be excessive - they should do a free oil consumption test if you're really concerned.

Jaik - good luck with the dealership, hope everything goes your way.

Fergus - I know how you feel and it sucks. I got lucky in the end but thought I was screwed until I found out about the warranty. Before that I was considering getting a reconditioned engine which would have cost about £900 for a low mileage off an '04 plate (Plus fitting costs which i didn't get round to pricing up). Or go down the 2zz route if you can afford it and the hike in insurance!

Jaik · November 26, 2007, 15:21

Well, I spoke to the dealer and they told me to try the warranty issuer, who have (as I expected) said that it probably wouldn't be covered as it's down to "engine wear and tear" whereas I'm only covered for "sudden failure". I also have to agree to pay for an engine strip-down to confirm the problem in case it's not something that's covered.

Back to the dealer I think!

Anonymous · November 26, 2007, 15:45

Just a quick thought so I could be wrong. If the Warranty doesn't cover it because it isn't classed as "Sudden Failure" and you've only had the car a month or so then that obviously means it wasn't in good working order when you bought it. So you should be able to reject it s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?: s:?: :?: s:?:

One way or the other either the warranty covers it or the dealer has to accept it wasn't fit for sale or whatever the technical term is. You could have a lengthy battle on your hands but don't back down. It's unreasonable to be expected to pay for such repairs when you've only had the car for such a short time - someone's either tried to shaft you already (dealership) or is trying to shaft you now (warranty)...

Stay strong and keep us posted...

Jaik · November 26, 2007, 15:49

Good point, and thanks for the words of support s:)

s:)

Anonymous · November 27, 2007, 05:57

Hey guys, I'm a newbie and just wanted to thank everybody for the fantastic help you have been! I apologize if this is the wrong place for my post -seemed the right thread. BTW lived in Oxford for 4 years, great place.

I'm in CT, USA, have an 01 MR2, bought at 80k. Engine was replaced at 68k due to a "broken bolt". Anyway, having been informed, it was likely the pre-cat + exhaust recycling problem.

I love the car, besides some rainwater that accumulated in the rear boxes, which went away after cleaning the drain behind the plastic side air-inlets (next time I'll snap off the lower plastic spoke of the 3 there..that should keep it clean).

I checked the precats via the O2 sensor inlets (snapped off 1 bolt of the remaining 3 of the heat shield...even after liquied wrench and warming up.. s:(

s:( ..btw is it OK to just leave the heat shield off and be able to enjoy the manifold's view s:?: :?: s:?: ). They looked absolutely perfect. I get 34 mpg at 65-70 mph highway commute, no oil loss to speak off (yet...). Two O2 sensors (1 pre 1 post) have been replaced thus far.

So, I a ordered an pre-cat-less st steel manifold to replace the original precats on Ebay ($150). This way I can sell the car with both, or swap should unlikely DMV (MOT) issues arise.

BTW I also asked an MR2 outsider yet knowledgable american friend what he thought I should do, here's what he said.

"
I guess you have to ask yourself if you want to keep the car for awhile. If so, it might be worth rectifying (i.e., gutting the pre-cat) if it is a common failure, and contributed to the very early engine failure you experienced. From what I've read, the mod seems straightforward.

But as you indicated, working on this area of an engine, the exhaust header, etc., can be a pain in the ass because the heat cooks all of the fittings, gaskets, nuts and bolts, sometimes making them more difficult to remove or causing them to break when stressed. I can remember back when I was in high school, I took the exhaust manifold off my Triumph so I could pull the cylinder head for repair. The manifold came off only after a couple of the retaining bolts sheared their heads: the remaining shanks of the bolts were frozen to the head, likely due to heat. Of course this was an old English car and probably there was no anti-seize compound used when the bolts were originally installed. However, more recently I can remember much frustration and cursing on my part while it took an inordinately long amount of time to remove a stuck (even with anti-seize lubricant) O2 sensor from the cat on my Audi.

As to whether or not you should do it yourself depends, I'd say, on how comfortable you are at turning a wrench on your car. The $130 will buy you (cool) tools that you can use again; But I would not buy this stuff if I weren't comfortable doing maintenance and repairs myself. If you are comfortable with it, I'd say do it. In theory, the procedure for pulling the header is straightforward, but caveats may apply. Aside from the baking effect of the heat, space may be tight. I don't know how an MR2 engine compares to German motors in this regard.

But if you are not surely comfortable, I'd recommend you find a shop that'll do it. But many shops might shy away from this as you'd be asking them to alter the emission control system, which might be illegal for a shop in CT to do (but I don't know for sure).

Also, I could be wrong on this, but I have a hunch that gutting the pre-cats will alter the emission levels even when the engine is warm. It would seem that they would function as catalysts regardless of engine temperature, as the exhaust always flows through the pre-cats. I don't know how sensitive CT's emissions standards are, but one might not be able to get away with this in California where emissions are held to very strict limits.
"

Useful reply I thought. So I'm going ahead and swap the precats for something shiny s:D

s:D

Best, and keep up the good work.

roger · November 27, 2007, 10:22

Welcome jv. 3 or 4 of us around the Oxford area. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Whilst your mate is right to question the emissions, I reckon all I can do is confirm what you already seem to have picked up, that the pre-cats are only there for start up, and in no way affect UK requirements.

Jigwar · November 27, 2007, 13:02

Quote from: "jverhagen"BTW lived in Oxford for 4 years, great place.

I'm in CT, USA, have an 01 MR2, bought at 80k.

So if i'm reading this correctly and you are now in California with your car then you may need to keep the precats in as this one of the states with strict emissions laws.

Worth checking with our American cousins on SpyderChat

HTH

Steve

Anonymous · November 27, 2007, 13:57

Thanks guys!
Glad to hear the main cat will suffice during 99% of my trips..environment and all. Yet it's already a very fuel-efficient car compared to the monsters I see on the roads here (10-15 mpg SUVs etc). Somehow I hope the gassprices double here to reach UK levels.

I don't know what the CA tests comprise of, but here in CT you drive it warm into a commercial shop who than test it s:P

s:P

BTW: it appears my Mazda 626 also has a precat near the engine and also does the exhaust recycling. Yet, based on 626.net there are no issues with failing engines (instead, it's poor automatic transmissions -mine is OK). Would this imply that it's kind of this "setup" that allows the failure, yet that the MR2s have particularly "fragile" precats s:?: :?: s:?: How common is this precat-recylcing setup across the board?

roger · November 27, 2007, 14:34

Quote from: "Jigwar"So if i'm reading this correctly and you are now in California with your car
Steve

Doh. Usual fingers working before brain in gear.

Jaik · November 27, 2007, 17:59

Okay here's the latest...

I spoke to the dealer who sold me the car today and explained the situation with the warranty company. I said something along the lines of if it's not covered by the warranty, then you'll need to get it sorted out for me. They're being very nice about it so far and said they'd be able to get it sorted. I have emailed over scanned copies of Toyota's report on the problem and the estimate they gave me for the repair work required. I made sure the guy preparing the estimate included everything that would be done were it under warranty; if it's getting repaired then it needs to be done properly.

The salesman I've been speaking to, who sold me the car, is going to talk to his manager about the case along with the documents I've emailed over to him and call me back tomorrow. At least I'm getting somewhere now.

Anonymous · November 28, 2007, 16:53

Sounds like you bought from a dealership that values his reputation at more than £2.5k.

Good work so far...

Jaik · November 28, 2007, 16:57

Looks that way yep s:)

s:) The guy is speaking to his manager today and calling me back; they've got a couple of hours left to get back to me today like they said they would.

Jaik · November 30, 2007, 09:38

The garage are coming with a recovery truck to pick up the car today and are doing the repairs. I didn't even have to raise my voice at them and they offered to cover it all, so a big success!

Thanks for everyone's advice and support!

Anonymous · November 30, 2007, 10:10

Result! Make sure they replace the main cat as well or the new engine will be toast as well.

Anonymous · November 30, 2007, 12:52

Quote from: "nelix"Result! Make sure they replace the main cat as well or the new engine will be toast as well.

+1

Make sure you get the work checked out though to be sure it's done properly.

Jaik · November 30, 2007, 20:15

I'll be doing both of those!

Anonymous · December 1, 2007, 10:51

Nice 1 Jaik.

Glad everythings getting sorted for you. Hopefully you'll be up and running pretty soon.

Jaik · December 10, 2007, 20:56

I had a phonecall from my salesman today. They've stripped the engine down, confirmed the problem is what Toyota said and started getting the parts replaced (all work as advised by Toyota in their quote).

Great news, but his manager wants me to pay a third towards the £3000 it is costing them as their "specialists" say the problem is due to "neglect". I have said I'm not happy with this and am waiting to speak to them againt tomorrow.

If I don't agree to pay the £1000 they want and they kick up a fuss, what is my legal standpoint? I've not agreed to pay anything (nor do I think I should) and they have started the work.

Anonymous · December 10, 2007, 20:57

You've not had it very long, tell them they either fix it as per the SOGA or you reject the car under the same Act. Simple as.

markiii · December 10, 2007, 21:04

there is no way neglect can be a factor in teh time you've had it.

Jaik · December 10, 2007, 23:39

Thanks guys, those were my thoughts. The next step will be to just stand my ground on not paying anything towards the repairs and see what they say I suppose.

Jaik · December 17, 2007, 12:56

Well, I've stood firm on not paying anything towards the repairs. When I told the salesman that I wouldn't be paying anything, he said he'd speak to his manager and get back to me. He didn't get back to me for a couple of days, so I rang them up just now and we're basically in the same situation.

I've told him I'm going to be looking at exactly where I stand legally and getting back to them. More hassle than I need at the moment but what can you do?

Anonymous · December 17, 2007, 16:57

If they're going to be like that, then reject the car. Take it back to them, give them the keys, ask for a bit of paper that says they're not going to perform the work on the engine, and then leave. If they refuse to give you your money back, then start legal proceedings to reclaim it.

Jaik · December 17, 2007, 17:11

They've already got the car and have done most of the work (which was started before they even mentioned me paying a contribution towards the costs).

I've read up all I can find on the SOGA and related bits and pieces (eg. Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002) so I know what my rights are. I'm waiting for the manager to call me back so I can speak with him directly rather than fannying around going through the salesman.

I'll have a proper discussion with him and see if I can get anywhere and if not, like you say Ekona, it's legal time s:(

s:(

On a side note, their company logo is in complete breach of copyright of a large nationwide retailer. It's a complete rip-off of one of their sub-brands. I'm not going to mention that for the moment, but if they continue to dig their heels in, I may tip off the retailer in question.