Which one for trackwork?

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

First post, be gentle!

I'm contemplating getting a car for some track fun this coming year.  I hadn't contemplated the MR2, but have heard that its quite a tuneable car and apparently makes a relatively cheap, fun track car.

With this in mind, could anyone help me determine which model would be best for trackwork?  I've been thinking about getting an early Mk3 and fettling it somewhat, (turbo/brakes/suspension/stiffening etc), but I'm not sure whether I should also contemplate looking at the Mk2 - of which there seem to be more about, many of which have already had various upgrades added.

It would really just be for trackdays, so I'm not too concerned about harsh ride/lack of boot etc.etc.

I would appreciate your thoughts - especially from those that are already tracking their cars.

cheers

[Liz]

Hi and welcome along   s:D s:D  

I would say that the answer to your question really lies in what your budget is for this project

..personally what I would do (have done) is buy an older model and spend the money saved on some toys  s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:  .

[aaronjb]

..personally what I would do (have done) is buy an older model and spend the money saved on some toys  s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:  .

Should probably add that by 'older model' you mean a MK3, Liz, since the OP is also looking at Mk2's (technically they are the older model  s;) s;) )

If it were me I'd go for a Mk3 for track work - the Mk2 is capable, but it's just a bit big to be a track weapon really.. it's more of a GT car - although it does well in the MR2 challenge so it's not exactly a lardy boat  s:) s:)

But since we only really 'know' Mk3's here, I suspect our opinion might be a little biased  s;) s;)

[Liz]

I thought that he was referring to the facelift Mk3. I'll just shut up   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

[aaronjb]

I thought that he was referring to the facelift Mk3. I'll just shut up   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

 s:D s:D  Well he did specify 'older' Mk3 - so you were agreeing that's a good plan of action  s;) s;)

Early Mk3 + bracing + suspension + turbo = track weapon  s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

...and for the cost of that you've got an Elise S1, which will be quicker still if it's purely for track work. Considering just how scary cheap they're getting, that's what I'd go for personally.

Ukwill, any reason you're looking at the MR2 rather than an Elise?

[Anonymous]

The other alternative is a late model damage repairable, get the best of both worlds then, better bracing and the up-graded engine.

Something I've considered but decided not to - mainly due to space plus I wouldn't mind saving and investing is an Ariel  s:D s:D  

Thanks
Rob

[aaronjb]

...and for the cost of that you've got an Elise S1, which will be quicker still if it's purely for track work.

Hmm.. I think I'd like to test that theory out  s;) s;)  I have a feeling the turbo'd '2 would have the edge purely thanks to horsepower.

[Anonymous]

No chance. At Keevil Sandi's mate in his bog-stock S1 was doing a damn good job of keeping up with me in the VXR (okay, so he's a better driver but still), and I walked away from Mark at Anglesey.  s8) s8)

I guess if you had a track with some really long straights and very few corners (Bruntingthorpe springs to mind) then the '2 would have a better chance, but then straights are boring  s;) s;)


This is working on the assumption of a 250-270bhp MR2 though. If you had something silly like 400bhp then it might be different, but then that's a lot of work for a track car and the money you could spend on that could net you something that would be quicker still...




Going back to one point that the OP made, if all else is out of the window (styling, practicality etc) then the Mk3 wins everytime. The Mk2 is still a great car, and if it's straightline speed you want then the tubby can be modded to ridiculous speeds for comparatively money, but for feel and handling the Roadster is king.

[aaronjb]

Hmm - I still think it'd be closer than that.. based on Elvington where the Elise only had maybe 5mph on me by the end of the back straight.  He had better corner speed, but then back then I had stock suspension, no bracing and a bad driver behind the wheel.

Surely there's no way a stock S1 should be able to keep up with you? You have nearly 200bhp over it.. did you leave your handbrake on again?  s;) s;)

[Anonymous]

 s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

A combination of average driver, not knowing the track as well as the other guy, and that the S1 weighs about 100kg less than me I reckon.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the responses people, much appreciated.

I've crossed the Elise out because I really like the Q-car idea of getting an MR2 (mk3) and upgrading it so that it will embarrass lots of far more expensive machinery on the track (i'm a bloke, it's a failing we all have - please forgive me  s:) s:) ).  

I think a suitably fettled MR2 will give plenty of surprises to a whole lot of things on a track day (Elise Mk1's included), and every now and again on the way to and from   s:wink: :wink: s:wink: .   Furthermore, the base price for an early one is getting ever cheaper - I've seen them for under 5k!!  So, I'm factoring around 10k-ish to get me up and started.  Finally from what I can read, it seems to be a pretty resilient car (not much seems to go wrong), it's relatively modern, and isnt' fibreglass (so shouldnt cost an inordinate amount to fix if I have an off or two).

I used to take my old 911 on track, but a couple of cars later I've upgraded to a 996 Turbo, and I can't take that on track and give it full beans without the fear of a crippling bill popping up (gravel traps/armco's etc), as well as worrying about depreciation/resale if I were to track it!  The MR2 fixes all this for me, and will allow me to enjoy trackdays again without worrying.

The mrs has a VW Polo GTi, I only wish we'd got her a MR2 mk3 to begin with!  s:) s:)  

I think a visit to SP is possibly in order...

[Silverman]

Early Mk3 + bracing + suspension + turbo = track weapon  s:D s:D

Q.  For a little more power on the road, would it be dangerous to fit a turbo without lowering the suspension (ingress/egress) and adding body bracing?

[Anonymous]

Fair enough, you know exactly what you're after so fair play to you.

Personally I wouldn't bother with SP: Their reputation has died on it's arse round here recently as they seem to have stopped caring about the MR2 side of the business. Apart from the TTE turbo there's nothing they sell you can't get elsewhere, and you won't want the TTET anyway if you're planning on fiddling with a track car. I'd stay well clear, but that's just IMHO.


For 10K budget, let's factor an early car in for 5K (which is the absolute lowest and it's going to be a high-mileage car, let's face it) and go from there. I wouldn't turbo an engine that old as it's unlikely to last, so you've got a few choices from there as I see it:

1. Put a 2ZZ in there: Great fun, but then it's never going to stonk anything in a straight line really and it's a fair whack of your budget
2. V6 swap: Much better idea, but there goes just about (if not all) your budget unless you do it all yourself
3. Leave the 1ZZ in there and go the light weight option: Flywheel, de-cat, light I/H/E, strip everything out. You've then got money left for suspension (Sportivo? Teins?), bracing (the 3.0 Racing stuff is brilliant), anti-roll bars etc which is then going to make the car a serious Elise-hunter in the corners

Of course, you could always turbo it anyway but factor in the cost of a new engine worse-case scenario (£1K-ish) and do the above mentioned 1ZZ bits as far as you can. If it's track-only I'd put some Yoko 048s on there as per the Exige, or if you do want to use it on the road as well then maybe the Advan Neovas (as per the S1 Elise) would suit better. The former have more grip outright, the latter are more communicative and much better in the wet. Definitely got to be either one or the other though, I wouldn't entertain anything else for a track MR2.



Forgive me if I'm telling you stuff you already know, just trying to cover all the bases for you.  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

[Anonymous]

Early Mk3 + bracing + suspension + turbo = track weapon  s:D s:D

Q.  For a little more power on the road, would it be dangerous to fit a turbo without lowering the suspension (ingress/egress) and adding body bracing?

Dangerous? God no, you'd be safe as houses for motorway pootling and normal (i.e. not stupid) B-road blasts.

[Anonymous]

Fair enough, you know exactly what you're after so fair play to you.

Personally I wouldn't bother with SP: Their reputation has died on it's arse round here recently as they seem to have stopped caring about the MR2 side of the business. Apart from the TTE turbo there's nothing they sell you can't get elsewhere, and you won't want the TTET anyway if you're planning on fiddling with a track car. I'd stay well clear, but that's just IMHO.


For 10K budget, let's factor an early car in for 5K (which is the absolute lowest and it's going to be a high-mileage car, let's face it) and go from there. I wouldn't turbo an engine that old as it's unlikely to last, so you've got a few choices from there as I see it:

1. Put a 2ZZ in there: Great fun, but then it's never going to stonk anything in a straight line really and it's a fair whack of your budget
2. V6 swap: Much better idea, but there goes just about (if not all) your budget unless you do it all yourself
3. Leave the 1ZZ in there and go the light weight option: Flywheel, de-cat, light I/H/E, strip everything out. You've then got money left for suspension (Sportivo? Teins?), bracing (the 3.0 Racing stuff is brilliant), anti-roll bars etc which is then going to make the car a serious Elise-hunter in the corners

Of course, you could always turbo it anyway but factor in the cost of a new engine worse-case scenario (£1K-ish) and do the above mentioned 1ZZ bits as far as you can. If it's track-only I'd put some Yoko 048s on there as per the Exige, or if you do want to use it on the road as well then maybe the Advan Neovas (as per the S1 Elise) would suit better. The former have more grip outright, the latter are more communicative and much better in the wet. Definitely got to be either one or the other though, I wouldn't entertain anything else for a track MR2.

Forgive me if I'm telling you stuff you already know, just trying to cover all the bases for you.  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:

That is all excellent stuff - in fact just what I was after.  Take it that I know less than the least knowledgeable person on here regarding MR2's and you'll get the picture!  

So..  Im intrigued about the fallout with SP.  I read a fair few posts on here last night, but didn't read anything about that.  Ideally I like the idea of a 1-stop shop, however I don't mind looking to another company for a turbo if needs be.  But you are right, I definately want to spend money with a company that I think will be able to provide decent enough post-service assistance if need be.  I'd be interested to hear what you would do, in my shoes.

[Liz]

There has not been a fall out as such with SP...I had a few problems when my turbo was first fitted - huge drop off in torque - but that turned out to be a dodgy MAF sensor which wasn't even looked at as a possibility  by SP.  The TTET has a 3 year warranty on it from the time of fitting, if the engine is above 25,000 miles it only covers the Turbo - under that mileage - which according to your post won't be the case - the engine is covered as well.  I have an aftermarket warranty with Olympic - who for an extra charge of £25 have covered any repairs to the Turbo as well....just in case!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I spent a good deal of money on petrol going backwards and forwards to SP, Markiii spent a day with me hooning around with things strapped to the car to try and sort out what was wrong and I had to use other garages for diagnostics for something which turned out to be a simple solution which I ended up calling them and telling them about, call it about £350 out of pocket ..others have had theirs fitted with no problems whatsoever.  I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that they have not been on here recently and have not paid any interest to MR2's for quite some time.

On the flip side of what Dan(Ekona) has said, if you want a plug and play turbo that you can fit and practically forget about then the TTET is an option, if you want more power and tinkering ability go elsewhere.  

I dare say that you have looked in the garage already - there are several different turbos in there which would give you a good idea of what is available and what power you can expect...and it has already been mentioned but the bracing makes one hell of a difference as well. Strap the car up as much as you can.

Just my 2p worth...oh and where in the UK are you based, there may be a member nearby who can give you a ride out in a modded version to give you an idea of what you can do?

[ChrisGB]

Agree with all the above with regard to modding the car. A couple of other possibilities. Suspension for track use, you may consider BC racing coilovers available with 4/6 or 6/8 or 8/10kg/mm spring rates which are significantly stiffer than the other alternatives. Uprated or adjustable anti roll bars and / or end links. I am using the 4/6 option on road and it is stiff but quick.

On the power front, staying N/A will get you up to maybe 170bhp max (exhaust manifold, cat or decat pipe, cams, ecu). There is a supercharger kit under development in the USA at the moment. Simple stuff, lots of power for less money than currently available turbo kits.

All food for thought.

Chris

[Silverman]

Early Mk3 + bracing + suspension + turbo = track weapon  s:D s:D

Q.  For a little more power on the road, would it be dangerous to fit a turbo without lowering the suspension (ingress/egress) and adding body bracing?

Dangerous? God no, you'd be safe as houses for motorway pootling and normal (i.e. not stupid) B-road blasts.

OK.  So long as most of the city fathers agree with you (?) where would be the best place to have a turbo fitted and which turbo would be the best buy??...

[philster_d]

2zz, forget it too much money for too little gain.
V6 no comment due to lack of data.
1zz blown with good mods, suspension bracing etc FTW!

Mine might be for sale soon too, if you are interested in a ready to go heavily modded MK3. Magazine featured, most powerful mk3 at the SP dyno day last year, fastest Mk3 at the santa pod inter club drag day last year. Second best Mk3 in show at last years JAE etc etc

I think its ready for the next person to take it on to new levels and fettling is probbably the next logical option. My recent redundeny has stopped me in my tracks, sadly.

[Anonymous]

I had the SP240 upgrade and loved it all bar the problem with the oil return and SP would get my vote a a goood place to go but it is a expensive route to take £4k for the TTET and £2k for the upgrade puts it out of the market. From previous experience the TTET is not quite quick enough to keep up with a elise but the SP240 and the Tein's I had fitted was more than enough to take the elise on track (might have been a less powerfull one). In saying that I know the my vx is quicker than the MR2 was and it would be a lot quicker round the track but the MR2 is easier to drive and if stripped out and stiffened and blown could really give most cars a run for there money. I would think you would be looking at arround 260bhp and the same torque to be in the region of the elise/exige.

Don't forget to look at the brakes I found that the oem brakes were the best I could find for reasonable money as I would go through a set every 6 months and upgrade the lines to Goodridge with RBF.

TBH it will be very hard to get it up to elise standard for £5k unless you fit all the stuff yourself I did a quick calculation and I was at £6k allready.

[Anonymous]

Is the C2 Gas beast still up for sale?

http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18165

[cclarke99]

My thoughts would be to just buy the car, don't do anything except the service items needed to ensure it doesn't go wrong and enjoy your trackdays. The MR2 has a very complex and highly integrated engine management system which doesn't seem to take very kindly to modifications. It's all too easy to get dragged into the modification route and spent more time (and money) trying to sort problems than driving the car - I say this from personal (non MR2) experience. From the usual reactions of other drivers, I'm not sure it really qualifies as a 'Q' car either. However 99% of the time the egg's on their face, so perhaps things will improve as people learn from their mistakes. As for the Mk2, I've never driven one, but road tests when it was launched were not that encouraging and it didn't get any better after that.

[philster_d]

mmmkay

[Liz]

The MR2 has a very complex and highly integrated engine management system which doesn't seem to take very kindly to modifications. .

  s:?: :?: s:?:    s:shock: :shock: s:shock:   so thats why TTE developed a turbo for it then, I mean OMG what were they thinking!