Which one for trackwork?

[Anonymous]

The biggest weakness of the MK3 on a track is the oiling system.
Hi-g sweepers or doing donuts in parking lot will uncover the oil pickup and starve the crank rod and journal bearings.

Heres what I would do:
"Phase 1"
1. Moroso oilpan, with oil temp and pressure gauges.
2. Replace the stock suspension with coil-overs.
3. Fattest, stickiest tires available.

"Phase 2- Forced Induction"
1. A custom turbo setup based on a GT2860RS with .86 exhaust A/R or a "CarverCharger". The turbo will allow you to easily make more power but the S/C might have better throttle response on corner exit.
2. A real oil cooler
3. Helical LSD to prevent the tranny from grenading.
4. Brake upgrade - rotors, pads & fluid

"Phase 3 -  Sky's the limit"
1. Built engine
2. Body work to fit even larger rubber
3. Eliminate the rev-limter so you can go to 8k and 170mph

[Anonymous]

I'm contemplating getting a car for some track fun this coming year.  I hadn't contemplated the MR2, but have heard that its quite a tuneable car and apparently makes a relatively cheap, fun track car.

It would really just be for trackdays, so I'm not too concerned about harsh ride/lack of boot etc.etc.

I would appreciate your thoughts - especially from those that are already tracking their cars

I have been down this path, here is my opinion with hindsight.....

I have a 02 Model MK 3 with TTE Turbo, TRD Metal Clutch, Tein Superstreets, Whiteline ARBs, Yoko Advan Neova tyres (195/50/15, 225/45/16). I use it for regular trips to the Ring and Spa, with forays to Bedford, Donnington et al.

If your intention is to have something cheap (ish) to buy and run and able to hold its head up on track then it is a great option. However as with all things once you start it is very easy to spend the sort of money that could get you something much more track orientated to start with hence the Elise S1 question from someone else.

It won't surprise anyone here that the majority of track Elises are no strangers to the upgrade catalogue, and if you have an ambition to turn up to a Lotus-on-track event and kick Toyota sand in their faces then be prepared for a lot of disappointment (I did and was). A standard Elise will give a 200bhp MR2 a very good workout - depending on the circuit and the drivers of course. Don't be surprised if that standard looking S1 is actually packing a Honda vtec or Audi turbo motor with 200++++ Combine that with a much stiffer chassis, much better suspension (even if that haven't ticked the 'Ohlins' box), more rubber, significantly lighter and generally better on track dynamics and your modded MR2 is going to struggle.

So what's my point? If you want something specifically for the track I'd buy an S1/VX, get it properly set-up and go have fun. If you then want to invest cash in making it go faster then you are working on a better canvas to start with.

All of that said, I love my MR2, it is plenty fast enough, has enough practicality to make long journeys to tracks easy (with an S1 you will quickly become familiar with the joy of leaking roofs and bleeding eardrums) and is genuinely entertaining and challenging to drive quicly. It is also great fun embarrassing much more expensive machinery knowing that you won't face a four figure bill for tyres, brakes and clutch after each track day.

Summary, if your 10K budget is actually going to grow (you know how these things happen) into 15 or 20K then bite the bullet, buy an Elise, Exige, VX, or Caterham now.

Time to burn the heretic!  s:flame: :flame: s:flame:

[Wabbitkilla]

No pyromaniac tendencies required - well summed up and presented with the backing of good experience.

For me as stated earlier, the Lotus or VX would be my tool of choice on the track. But I have to live with my car and prefer the open road and scenery of the real world, the track just doesn't hold enough interest for me. Don't get me wrong i'm sure everyone who tracks loves it, and I can understand that. My two forays onto the track were in Seat Leon Cupra R and a S2 Elise, the Lotus was a delight.

The Lotus suspension and chassis outshines our humble car, but then that's what it is designed to do. Toyota optimised the 2 for enjoyable sporty driving as much as everyday suspension and retailability will allow. Every part on the 2 comes from the parts bin of a 'normal' car, maybe the better parts bins - but still 'normal' parts bins.

The Lotus (vx inc) from the drawing board was designed from the ground up with the thought of "what's the best way to get around corners quickly" and mostly they do.

[cclarke99]

I hope I'm agreeing with the previous posts in saying that it's really a matter of deciding where you want to go and then picking exactly the right starting point. I've had two goes at this and when I got it right, the results were stunning; getting it wrong (right car - just the wrong engine), it was ultimately a disappointment (although a lot of fun getting there).
I'm sure you'd have to do a lot to an MR2 to make it as "good" as an ordinary Lotus and it hurts much more to wreck a car you've invested a lot of effort in than something you just picked up at a dealers.
Finally I'd like to apologise to anyone I offended with my previous remark on modifications, the TTE conversion is obviously a top quality item that delivers. However, it also bears out my comment to some extent in that you really need factory support to get this sort of thing to work well; and the choice of a turbo for the project suggests they didn't feel that they'd get far with conventional tuning of what was already an excellent engine.

[aaronjb]

However, it also bears out my comment to some extent in that you really need factory support to get this sort of thing to work well;

The number of emminently reliable and powerful aftermarket turbo conversions running on '2s around the world would also seem to suggest otherwise.  Honestly, I think you're spouting nonsense there.

and the choice of a turbo for the project suggests they didn't feel that they'd get far with conventional tuning of what was already an excellent engine.

Well yes - but the same goes for any engine.  You can spend thousands upon thousands boosting the power by perhaps 50-75bhp if you are NA, or spend a few thousand and double the power using a turbo.  Rather makes sense, don't you think?

Would you spend £10,000 for a tuning package that only makes power over 8,000rpm, is utterly gutless below, and impossible to drive around town?

Didn't think so.

  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[filcee]

Another heretical post ... kind of in support of GT3RS above ...

Didn't Juansolo have an unmodified '2 that was tracked regularly - and usually in preference to a heavily modified Caterfield?  I believe that this was  simply because it was easy to drive to and from the track (I think the Caterfield required trailering), cheap to fix/service in its standard form and pretty cheap to run.  ISTR he loved every minute of it, too.

On that basis, why not just drive the wheels off an unmodded one?  OK, you won't be embarassing anyone except yourself if you're not inch-perfect all the time, but what-the-hey, it's cheap fun if nothing else.

<declaration>
I've never tracked my unmodded one, but I find that without any extra power over stock I get punished for not getting it right on the road simply because there's not some enormous reserve of power & torque that can be engaged in the straight bits to cover for my stupidity.  I find this quite challenging, if not downright frustrating some days, but, on balance, it's something I enjoy about the car becuase it demands something of me in order to realise some sort of return from a drive.
</declaration>

Just my 0.02

[philster_d]

Well all this talk of unreliabiity, mine has never been a problem and has been driven every day at its full power and with no problems. those people who say "I never drove an mr2 but" save the advice.

[cclarke99]

In response to aaronjb, I'm sure there are lots of good turbo kits, and lots of bad ones, my original point was that the more complex the engine management system, the harder it is to sort any problems when they do occur. I base this view partly on the numerous threads relating to modified engines with O2 sensor problems, CELs and similar. This and the need to pass the emissions test every year all adds an extra layer of difficulty to any tuning activity. It also places much more of a premium on the effort put into originally developing the conversion, which is reflected in the price
Regarding the old conventional vs forced induction debate, it really depends on where you start (and want to finish). Some engines don't like being tuned and you'll never get that much from them, but looking again at the Elise, the K series engine is pretty good as standard and a £3K budget will produce some very good figures. Look at

 m http://www.raceline.co.uk/lotuseliseframes.htm m
 m http://www.dvapower.com/ m

By contrast you could spend £2000 on an MR2 and get around 25bhp, hence the reason why so many people choose the turbo route.

[Anonymous]

I've drove a modified and unmodified MR2 on track considerably, mainly as a result of working for bookatrack.  I say this mainly to quantify my experience in a sea of mixed opinions rather than as a boast.  This post of course, is merely an opinion too.  Considering the absence of Mk3's I've seen at trackdays I would say mine is perhaps one of the most tracked examples.  Don't let the absence of other Mk3's on track put you off - indeed this can be a good thing as once up to speed you are sure to get lots of "you were going well!" comments that you simply wouldn't get in an Elise.  s;) s;)

IMO the Mk3 MR2 is one of the great dark horses.  As they are becoming cheaper it would be good to see more on track.  You also have to remember they are only slightly heavier than a new model Elise... I think the latest incarnation of the Exige weighs in excess of 900kg!  The Roadster has the best chassis of the MR2 line, it's so very forgiving for a mid-engined car.  It's quite sensitive to tyre pressure changes (and indeed tyres) though, but this can be great for learning.  I recommend Advan Neova LTS tyres.  Or AO48's on lowered springs would be a strong combination - I'm still on stock suspension however as I am reluctant to tinker with something that is well balanced straight out of the box.

I used mine for nothing but trackdays and driving to and from them (which was pretty hard miles too).  I havn't had much problem other than the usual precat failure which prompted a switch to the 2ZZ engine.

Just picking up on a few random comments in this thread from various posters, I didn't have time to read the entire topic so I may have missed a few things:

If it were me I'd go for a Mk3 for track work - the Mk2 is capable, but it's just a bit big to be a track weapon really.. it's more of a GT car - although it does well in the MR2 challenge so it's not exactly a lardy boat

If I was to do it again I would actually consider a Mk2 as its a little cheaper.  I briefly drove a stripped out NA mk2 challenge race car (otherwise largely identical to a stock road car) and it felt at least as willing as my 2ZZ, well until I bounced it off the limiter.  I didn't have the opportunity to evaluate it on corners, but Patrick at Rogue tells me once you have removed about 300kg of crap the chassis isn't half as nasty as they say.

2zz, forget it too much money for too little gain.
1zz blown with good mods, suspension bracing etc FTW!
Mine might be for sale soon too

I will just look over the fact that this guy is trying to sell his own 1ZZ turbo.  s;) s;)

I love my 2ZZ with the exception that any car with an engine that revs under 8000rpm feels so lifeless.  Turbos are easier to drive quicker... just plant your foot as much as the rear will take and go.  But if you want to develop your driving skills (isnt that what trackdays are all about?) rather than just lap everybody then I would recommend 2ZZ everytime.  It doesn't take long to learn to keep it in the rev range, and when you are putting laps together and heel and toeing without it dropping below 6000rpm you realise you've learnt a skill that you can apply to so many other cars.

The biggest weakness of the MK3 on a track is the oiling system.

Really?  Is that different to the oiling systme with the 1ZZ and 2ZZ Elise's then because they go round tracks all day long on sticky tyres without any problem.  I've had no issues with my 1ZZ or 2ZZ on the oil side of things and they had about as much abuse as you can throw at them.

Didn't Juansolo have an unmodified '2 that was tracked regularly - and usually in preference to a heavily modified Caterfield?

He had a westfield which broke down a lot which was probably a factor.  And yes he prefered the MR2 a lot during the winter, when it was cold and wet and who wouldn't prefer to just get in a car turn the key and drive to the circuit rather than faffing about with trailers and finding out your stocks of waterproofs for the day?  s;) s;)

He sold it in the end, he actually loved it too much on track that he realised if he didn't sell it he would track it more and more to the point where he might eventually crash (I believe he had recently put his westfield in the wall at the time).  He had bought it from new too so it's not like the £5k comparativly throwaway track Mk3s you can consider now.

On that basis, why not just drive the wheels off an unmodded one?

I drove the wheels off my unmodified one quite happily.  I would have continued to do so had the 1ZZ precat issue not reared its head.  I was rather reluctant to fit a 2ZZ actually as I had so much more learning to do with the standard car.  I think this is a reason why my 2ZZ MR2 is still essentially stock other than the obvious change.

I ought to point out for the original posterof this thread about the precat issue, as it's a fault in the design of early cars exhaust systems rather than something that wears out.  Toyota should have done a recall really.  Search in the form for precat for more info.  There is a FAQ somewhere.  Of course you could buy a forumites car which has already been sorted.

[philster_d]

Not just the wheels I heard  s;) s;)

I will just look over the fact that this guy is trying to sell his own 1ZZ turbo.  

I love my 2ZZ with the exception that any car with an engine that revs under 8000rpm feels so lifeless. Turbos are easier to drive quicker... just plant your foot as much as the rear will take and go. But if you want to develop your driving skills (isnt that what trackdays are all about?) rather than just lap everybody then I would recommend 2ZZ everytime. It doesn't take long to learn to keep it in the rev range, and when you are putting laps together and heel and toeing without it dropping below 6000rpm you realise you've learnt a skill that you can apply to so many other cars.

Overlook the facts if you like, yours was blown up so the difference was less relavent. ie.  swapping engines anyway? then you might as well 2zz (tho I have heard the 2zz is not as bullet proof as the 1zz when you start upping things more with mods - I personaly considered building a 3zz but settled on the turbo in the end)

Price wise with a swap for a 2zz the gain is less than you can expect from the similar spend on the blown 1zz simple as. Also, if you do some internals you can up the rev limit on the 1zz if you so choose the na route and like the extra revs.

I had also both a mk2 turbo and na and I would say the na is pretty gutless and lardy (do very much need to keep the revs up). No denying the turbo was a beast! but I ended up with the opinion of I must sell this before I break it (much like your friend sounds like)

[kanujunkie]

so hows your 2zz running then Jules?

[NickNJ]

Some of the elise/MR2 comparisons are more about driving ability. A good driver in an mr2 will probably beat an average driver in an s1 elise. Either way, I don't think there will be much in it between an s1 and mr2 turbo.

In fact, the north west lotus club (norlog.net) have their own mr2 which they track between them as its cheap and resonably quick. UKWill, get a mk1 with the mkii turbo engine thrown in, that'll be the perfect stealthmobile you're after.   s:D s:D

[loadswine]

If you do go for one of those, I know where there is a nice Mk1.5 for sale.
(No, its nothing to do with me)  s:) s:)

[Liz]

Has anyone else noticed that ukwill hasn't been back - have we put him off!!?

[spynish]

Is the C2 Gas beast still up for sale?

http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18165

I talked to him a few days ago and it was. So think it is yet   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[loadswine]

Has anyone else noticed that ukwill hasn't been back - have we put him off!!?

Very likely Liz, I think the thread has wandered around a bit, but that will happen with the subject matter.
If Will comes back  here, it would be good to see where he is at, and where he wants to go with the thread to assist with his original enquiry