Turbo or Supercharger

[alancdavis]

Naturally I know a lot of members have fit a turbo but have any fit a supercharger,,,what would be an unbiased opinion twixt the two options.

[loadswine]

The guys over on spyderchat have had a fair bit of experience with these.
There is a kit close to being brought out now, I understand.
ChrisGB has been watching this one closely I think.
Worth a look!

[Anonymous]

Turbo = More power, more lag, more options, easier to fit
S/C = Less power, no lag, less options, harder to fit.


For more details on turbo stuff please search the site as it's been covered a million times before. There's not so much on the s/c side of things, but then there's Spyderchat for that. For an overall explanation on the technical differences between the two setups, please visit here and have a read through.

[scottish_turbo]

To be honest if it was me and I considering a turbo or supercharger the choice for me wouldnt be too difficult, I'd go with a turbo - to be precise markiii's turbo kit (if its still for sale).

I have spent a ridiculous number of hours setting my turbo kit up how I want it adding various parts to the kit and changing parts on the kit for better quality parts.

You can see that mark has also done this too. This costs a fortune to do so you are better taking advantage of someone else spending time and money doing it and you getting a better kit straight away.

[SimonC_Here]

To be honest if it was me and I considering a turbo or supercharger the choice for me wouldnt be too difficult, I'd go with a turbo - to be precise markiii's turbo kit (if its still for sale).

I have spent a ridiculous number of hours setting my turbo kit up how I want it adding various parts to the kit and changing parts on the kit for better quality parts.

You can see that mark has also done this too. This costs a fortune to do so you are better taking advantage of someone else spending time and money doing it and you getting a better kit straight away.

I think he might be too late for that!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s8) s8)  


Simon

[northernalex]

I'm no expert on turbo kits or cars in general, but going on the chief engineer at my work "Supercharger all the way".  He agrees with all the points made about lag, power etc BUT the big one in his mind is that the turbo sits on the exhaust manifold, you're activley pumping heat into the blower, which apparantly  isnt that good  s:) s:)

He's more used to older cars, not ours, so i dont know how much this is still valid these days.  But thats another opinion.

[scottish_turbo]

To be honest if it was me and I considering a turbo or supercharger the choice for me wouldnt be too difficult, I'd go with a turbo - to be precise markiii's turbo kit (if its still for sale).

I have spent a ridiculous number of hours setting my turbo kit up how I want it adding various parts to the kit and changing parts on the kit for better quality parts.

You can see that mark has also done this too. This costs a fortune to do so you are better taking advantage of someone else spending time and money doing it and you getting a better kit straight away.

I think he might be too late for that!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s8) s8)  


Simon

haha! just read your location! Quality.

[evileye_wrx]

Panek from Spyderchat has a turbo for sale. It's advertised in the For Sale section. Its pretty cheap, tho you'll probably need to add about £700 for shipping and fees

[ChrisGB]

Naturally I know a lot of members have fit a turbo but have any fit a supercharger,,,what would be an unbiased opinion twixt the two options.

From an engineering poit of view:

Turbo pros:

Uses engine waste energy to drive it giving better efficiency and potentially more power, subject to other factors.

Can be mounted to suit engine bay layout.


Turbo cons:

Can partially restrict exhaust flow

Need to balance lag against top end fall off

Boost needs to be controlled by ecu / wastegate system (room for error or system failure with potential dire consequences for the engine, boost creep etc)

Heats up engine bay

Can heat air up a lot for volume shifted

Supercharger pros:

Minimal to zero lag if pipework is kept brief

Stable linear power characteristics across rev range / throttle position

Stable boost, no boost control ecu needed (engine driven means speed of compressor is directly fixed by engine speed)

Can be cooler running from an air output temperature point of view

Does not heat engine bay

Supercharger cons:

Supercharger takes engine power to drive it so if your engine is putting out 250bhp, the engine is making approx 275, 25bhp of which is driving the supercharger.

Need to be located for belt driven operation, so positioning and plumbing options are limited.

Off boost mechanical drag can be a problem (M90 uses 0.5bhp when not boosting apparently, but older designs are possibly less good).

Needs to be bypassed when off boost or inlet restriction occurs.

Adds rotating mass.

Needs servicing periodically.

Can be noisy.

From a drivers standpoint, the turbo is always going to be a balancing act between top end power and lag. Bigger turbos push more air at the high rev / full throttle but suffer from lag at mid to low engine speed, small turbos suffer very little lag, but will not make big horsepower high up the rev range. To ffset this, the energy used to drive it is waste energy (although the turbo itself may knock 5 - 10bhp off the output as a result of the small restriction it makes on engine breathing.

Superchargers on the other hand are just matched to the engine. Once the gearing is set up to get the speed right, the engine will make good mid and top end power. Mid range torque will of course be limited where a turbo can be made to make a big swell of torque in the mid, a supercharger has only a linear speed slope, so cannot normally be made to fatten up the midrange without having an inlet restriction. For the 1zz the lack of mid range lift could be a good thing for the gearbox.

Driving the turbo car, there will always be a little lag. I drove Liz's car and the lag was minimal with a very smooth torque curve, a very nice installation running 203bhp. Generally, the supercharged car will have a more consistent response to the throttle as whatever you do, the compressor is up to speed and boost is there immediately. Driving back to back the turbo will always feel turbod, the supercharged car will respond immediately and consistently like the normal engine but with more power.

For me, for the 1zz, the appeal of the supercharger is twofold. First, I really like the lag free "big engine" feel of a supercharged setup. Second, I have paranoia about the gearbox, so would like a flat torque curve staying at or below 200lb/ft if possible. Supercharging makes this easier to achieve. The turbo will be ultimately more efficient, but my personal preference is for the supercharger because of the way it will drive.

If you are going to bigger horsepower, the supercharger driving feel advantage becomes greater. Run a fully built up engine at say 350bhp with a large turbo and you will potentially have big lag low down the rev range. Run the same with a supercharger, you get very linear power. On the downside, you also need to make an extra 35bhp to drive the supercharger.

The kit over on SC is coming with a methanol injection option which eliminates the need for an intercooler (and its attendant lag introducing properties). Cost is looking good on the kit as it uses a commonly available supercharger. Other kits using the Rotrex will generally cost more than the turbo kits (the Rotrex unit costs a lot). You pays your money and takes your choice. Neither is better IMO, just have different pros and cons.

For my tastes, a light mid engined car needs lag free responses particularly at part throttle and a linear flat torque curve to maximise traction. Supercharging is the obvious choice for my wish list. I am hoping I can hit 190lb/ft at 6800 rpm for a gearbox friendly 245bhp. No idea how the PPE manifold or Che exhaust will work with boost yet. If the kit is the right price and output though, I will be having one as soon as it becomes available.

Chris

[Wabbitkilla]

 s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  What he says   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

The supercharger from SC looks very appealing to me, also consider the way some tubular turbo manifolds crack due to the inherent heat and vibration introduced by diverting the exhaust into a turbine.

[philster_d]

Supercharger cons:
Hacking away at the firewall ? /location forces it to be there.

[loadswine]

Carver's kit on SC doesn't require cutting of the fire wall according to his thread.
Be really interested to see how this goes, wonder if he'd like to design one for my V6!

[ChrisGB]

Carver's kit on SC doesn't require cutting of the fire wall according to his thread.
Be really interested to see how this goes, wonder if he'd like to design one for my V6!

I cannot find a smiley for drool and you cannot find room in the engine bay!

EDIT: You could plonk it on top with an engine cover bulge!

Full kit price announced at $2650  s:D s:D  

Chris

[carl_evs]

I've been watching Carver's thread (and associated ones) closely as it looks like its going to be a good piece of kit.
Not been on in a few days - if thats the price for the kit it is going to be even harder to resist the urge!!

[loadswine]

I'm watching this development with interest, wonder who'll be the first on here to go for one.
I know who my money's on.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Yes Chris, it would be nice, a blown 6, but there isn't much room for sure, except in my wallet, which is empty!  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  
I was only dreaming!

[alancdavis]

Guys,,thanks for all the great advise,,,,,this shows what the forum is all about with regard to the experts we have out there
Thanks again    s:) s:)

[DannyN]

Full kit price announced at $2650  s:D s:D

GB ??

[ChrisGB]

Full kit price announced at $2650  s:D s:D

GB ??

At that price I doubt there is a huge amount to be saved on parts, but could be a good deal on shipping. Wont hurt to ask. Or do you mean GB£? In which case around £1500 shipped I would guess.

Chris

[Anonymous]

I've been following the thread on spyderchat closely too.
Definately interested in going down this route at that price!   s:D s:D

waiting for some hard figures but it looks very promising. will also need to see much it would affect my insurance premium.   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

should look into a deal on shipping - sure there'll be a few ROC'ers going  for this!

[Wabbitkilla]

I'll be up for it, but I have to wait for my bonus.
Also, i want the full kit minus the engine management as i've already got an e-Manage installed. I noticed there was no mention of bigger injectors - running at 10psi, it really shuld have them!

On top of that i'll want an Apexi intake, possibly with a Zero manifold.

[Jaik]

Depending entirely on the insurance cost, I may be interested in the CarverCharger as it's now been dubbed. Realistically though I don't think it's going to be viable for me (male, 22, 2yr NCB, 1 fault accident in 2005, F-grade area).

[Wabbitkilla]

Realistically though I don't think it's going to be viable for me (male, 22, 2yr NCB, 1 fault accident in 2005, F-grade area).

Oh the joys of reaching 40 and living in a rural town  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Jaik]

Realistically though I don't think it's going to be viable for me (male, 22, 2yr NCB, 1 fault accident in 2005, F-grade area).

Oh the joys of reaching 40 and living in a rural town  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Sod off  s:D s:D

[DannyN]

At that price I doubt there is a huge amount to be saved on parts, but could be a good deal on shipping. Wont hurt to ask. Or do you mean GB£? In which case around £1500 shipped I would guess

Yes I just meant to save on the shipping

[ChrisGB]

I'll be up for it, but I have to wait for my bonus.
Also, i want the full kit minus the engine management as i've already got an e-Manage installed. I noticed there was no mention of bigger injectors - running at 10psi, it really should have them!

On top of that i'll want an Apexi intake, possibly with a Zero manifold.

I think it runs an uprated FPR to get the injection volumes up. This has always been my preferred method as it counteracts the boost pressure difference drop as well, leading to better atomisation.

As for the manifold, remember the alternator is coming round to the back of the engine block, so need to make sure there is room to clear whatever system you have. Clears PPE   s8) s8)  

Engine management could be tricky. They are using the Split Second system and according to Split Second inc there is no agent or support in the UK although they are happy to support any tuning shop taking it on. I may go Emanage or PFC.

Chris