More grip needed

[Anonymous]

Your example of your friend who started learning again in your car does actually work, as because the arse end is a billionty times more likely to come around you soon have to adapt your driving style to a more conservative one, which will always end up being slower and therefore more stable.

Perhaps then, this is where we are at with my own driving and indeed the rather more competent driver than gave it a shoeing.  Though personally I don't feel I am driving any more conservativley - I would be happy to accept that there is reduced grip and therefore reduced cornering speed with the gain of more communication.  I feel that can only be a good thing.

If you really wanted to ever prove a point on it, then I've got a set of 17" wheels in my garage shod with T1S rubber in 205F/215R sizes, which is by far from a perfect setup as the stagger isn't quite enough, and they're also heavy as hell. It's not impossible for me to bring them to a track of your choosing (since you get free tracktime  s;) s;) ) and you to drive a few laps with your setup, and a few on my tyres. I can guarantee that you'll be quicker on my tyres after a few laps getting used to the extra grip available. Dead serious offer, no small print, could do it under test conditions if you liked (if you could wangle use of the track at lunch when it's empty so you have no other traffic, and we'd record everything on videotape so no timing would be done at the track itself, neatly getting round the insurance issues  s;) s;) ).

It sounds like an interesting experiement and I'm game, but I'm not sure what the test would prove particulary when at no point have I said going for my tyre configuration gives you greater speed.  17" vs 15" using a different tyre manufacturer altogether is hardly control conditions so its all a bit silly - though I've always wondered how larger wheels run on track.  It might certainly help the standard 4x4 suspension my car still has so I would be interested from that point of view! (though somehow I would be half expecting a sales pitch shortly afterwards)

[Anonymous]

I rather disagree that the s2 elise doesn't understeer on it's skinny fronts

I understand it understeers more than the S1, and I know this is for the reason you have given for its intended market.  My point was that it doesn't understeer dramatically - I've certainly seen standard examples on track enjoying themselves.

yur cavalier approach to assuring all who will listen to not worry about tyre widths is irresponsible at best

My original point has rather been dragged out and twisted slightly, since I was responding to the idea that same-size-tyres-all-round was a deathwish.  I have found it both safe and communicative using standard wheels and suspension with Neova LTS.

I think the core point of the matter is that a sweeping statement declaring one configuration as dangerous (or indeed safe) based on tyre width alone is misleading.

[ChrisGB]

Taking the driver out of the equation completely, we need to look at how controllable a car is when past it's limit of adhesion.

If you breach the limit of adhesion in a mid engined car at the front, you will get some understeer, largely easy to correct as the car is still pointing in roughly the right direction. Correction can be via easing off the gas, or unloading and reloading the steering or a bit of both. In a situation where this occurs unexpectedly, the drivers chances of recovery are good to excellent.

If the same car at the same speed loses grip at the back end, you will get quite a lot of oversteer, the weight being out back and the grip at the front. The car will very quickly not be pointing in the right direction by some angle. The driver will need to apply opposite lock and to modulate the throttle accurately to regain rear grip but avoid transferring weight off the rear tyres.  In a situation where this occurs unexpectedly, the drivers chances of recovery are medium at best.

For the more experienced driver, who can listen to the cars signals, the chances of unexpected over or understeer are much less than for an inexperienced driver, however, we have all no doubt come across the wet and unusually greasy roundabout and found ourselves drifting wide at the nose a little. Put in a set of equal sized tyres and you are drifting wide at the rear instead. I only ask one question.

Does Fanjules reckon a car more likely to spin in these circumstances is as safe as one that is not?

I have gone to tyre sizes that, because of slight rim pinch on the rear, reduce the size difference slightly. On these tyres, I have had many more sideways moments than on the stock sizes (all of them planned in advance). I would suggest that although the car now turns in much harder, the extra bite at the front end is what is mainly the cause of the relative drop in overall limit stability. Sure I know the car and accept that I have sacrificed a little safety margin to get better turn in, but would I pass the keys to someone I knew to be new to mid engined cars, not a chance. What has essentially changed is the amount of time it takes for it to get sideways. Where it used to get away relatively slowly, the greater front grip now makes the rear get away much more quickly. I now need to be absolutely aware of when it is on the edge and remove lock or gas just as it starts to move. It is still on the safe side, pushing wide at the front on neutral throttle, but the oversteer is now much closer.

Chris

[Anonymous]

If you really wanted to ever prove a point on it, then I've got a set of 17" wheels in my garage shod with T1S rubber in 205F/215R sizes, which is by far from a perfect setup as the stagger isn't quite enough, and they're also heavy as hell. It's not impossible for me to bring them to a track of your choosing (since you get free tracktime  s;) s;) ) and you to drive a few laps with your setup, and a few on my tyres. I can guarantee that you'll be quicker on my tyres after a few laps getting used to the extra grip available. Dead serious offer, no small print, could do it under test conditions if you liked (if you could wangle use of the track at lunch when it's empty so you have no other traffic, and we'd record everything on videotape so no timing would be done at the track itself, neatly getting round the insurance issues  s;) s;) ).

It sounds like an interesting experiement and I'm game, but I'm not sure what the test would prove particulary when at no point have I said going for my tyre configuration gives you greater speed.  17" vs 15" using a different tyre manufacturer altogether is hardly control conditions so its all a bit silly - though I've always wondered how larger wheels run on track.  It might certainly help the standard 4x4 suspension my car still has so I would be interested from that point of view! (though somehow I would be half expecting a sales pitch shortly afterwards)

You wouldn't want them, they're absolutely shot to pieces!  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:


No, it's not absolute control conditions of course, but it's a good way of proving my point. If you genuinely couldn't be quicker on staggered widths on big heavy wheels then there may be a point there, but I know you'd be a hell of a lot quicker. Speed is indeed not everything on the road compared to track, but the point would be more the extra control you have allowing you to go faster, IYSWIM.

[evileye_wrx]

Is this thread not done now? Everyone agrees that their views differ from Jules. We've probably answered the original question. From what I've heard Jules prefers to hang out with the Porsche Boys than bother to talk to MR2 drivers. After he's resorted to insulting anyone who doesn't agree with him. So maybe we should just lock the thread and end further tit-for-tat debate

[Wabbitkilla]

[MOD] Agreed, this has swung so far off topic as to be unreal.

Needless to say this is an emotive subject and tempers have frayed.
Don't take this as a criticism against anyone in particular, everyone has made their point abundantly clear.
{/MOD]

[Anonymous]

Except I'm right


 s;) s;)