Dead Battery Recharging

[onion86]

Sorry if this has been covered before or if it is a very noob question but this is the first time I've tried to do something like this and search didn't shed any light.

My battery (I think OEM Jap MR-S - it is black with 'Zi ta.GS' on the side) has died due to the car sitting in the cold not being used for a few weeks, up to the point of the red light in the car no longer even able to flash. When this happened on my Civic (not due to cold/no-use, was alternator problem) the garage charged the battery rather than trying to sell me a new one so I've decided to do the same thing now.

I bought a battery recharger this one as I'm sure the battery itself is fine so thought I'd plug it in and put it on charge for a while. I was going to put it on last night but haven't yet because I opened up all the Cells to check the levels, they're all about the same height but seem to be a lot lower (~2cm) than what I can assume the 'max level' is supposed to be (the picture/diagram is rather simple). Pretty much everything other than 'max level' and '12V' on the battery is obviously in Japanese.

Just a couple of quick ones:

- Firstly I'm guessing this charger is fine to use on the battery?
- I was going to top up the cell levels before putting the battery on charge, am I correct in thinking I use ionised water in here? Would Halfords be my best bet in where to buy that from?
- Do you think the battery would be fine to try straight off or would jump starting the car and driving it a little help initially before plugging it in to the charger?
- Should I vut my losses and get a new battery and return the charger rather than wasting £15 for something that probably won't help?

I have got a few pictures of the battery on my phone that I can upload if that's of any use?

Thanks
Stu

[Anonymous]

yes that battery charger looks fine
dont jump start the car first, just stick the battery on charge.
Yes, halfords sell the ionised water as do some petrol stations.
personally I would give it a go, the charger will probably come in handy in the future even if your battery is shot..

[spit]

Absolutely worth a try, but with winter coming this could be the death-throes for your existing battery.

If you go for a replacement, the MR-S terminals are smaller than UK. If you have trouble sourcing one with smaller lugs and the correct polarity (+ve on the right as you look in), let me know and I'll root out the details of suitable types that are pretty readily available from UK suppliers.

[onion86]

Thanks Ben I'll try it out. Will check Tesco petrol station later for water and if not I'll go over to Halfords.

Cheers Ste I remember seeing the smaller terminals brought up before. If I was replacing I was going to try and get one of the light-weight batteries I've seen people mention on here, any of these come with the smaller terminals on as I hadn't thought about that? Still not 100% sure whether the few kg weight loss is worth it at double the price though.

I'm going back to Suffolk next Friday so need the car working for then; should hopefully be using it more often now as I've only got 5 more weeks at work then I'll be driving about quite a lot until mid Jan. I'll be out in the sticks with no other transport, so fingers crossed the battery will last the winter.

[mrzwei]

With regard to the fluid level, it just needs to cover the electrodes.

[wbarrwebster]

I'm sure you are aware but if your charging up the battery.....with the cells visable, no naked lights.....

B

[enid_b]

just to throw some alternative light on this one.

from experience, once the battery has become completely discharged it is knackered.  mine ran flat about a month before i sold it. i tried trickle charging, boost charging, driving with high revs for a period, most options in fact.

it would start the car again, say if i had nipped into the shops, but it would not work if it was left overnight.  the car had only been doing 6 miles a day for the 6 months prior to this, so i do not think it was getting much of a charge.

personally, with the winter coming i would shell out for a new one, peace of mind and all that.  i was advised by a mechanically minded friend that once these modern batteries go completely flat, they are effectively goosed.  plus, its not the biggest, most heavy duty battery to begin with is it?

again, personally i would not bother with the lightweight replacement, its not cost effective.

[ChrisGB]

Going to be a luck of the draw thing really. You have nothing to lose by charging it up, but it is 50/50 if it will be any good again. Sometimes a battery can recover from a deep discharge, sometimes it will be knackered. As a rough guide, if it takes a lot of current for a short time then shows charged, it is probably knackered.

I find that as my car is not used very often over winter, a top up charge every two or three weeks keeps the battery fine.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Standard car batteries (unlike leisure or caravan batteries or the type used by off-roaders to power electric winches) are not designed to be completely drained (electrically) and then recharged more than a couple or three times.  They suffer and you will find they stop holding charge.  Bite the bullet and fork out for a new one before winter.  If you are laying your car up for winter it is always a good idea to buy a charger and keep the battery on charge - that way the car will always be ready for the occasional bright winter day whan you want to get the top down and blast away the cobwebs.

[onion86]

Cheers for your views guys. The battery has been on charge overnight and I'm going to check it out in a bit, after plugging it in the charging light had changed colour after a couple of hours (it's supposed to be red and green but was also orange to start with - which wasn't mentioned in the instructions) so looks like it may have taken something in (fingers crossed). I was thinking the same about being completely drained = dead but as the same thing happened to my 1998 Civic, albeit with a ~2yo battery, thought I'd give it a go with this one.

As far as I'm aware, if this is the stock battery it could be 9 years old so if I do have to replace it after today it's definitely had a good run!

Cheers for the views on the LW battery Jason I was thinking the same thing.

*EDIT* - Light has now gone Red, Orange and changed to Yellow within the last 30 minutes, just need to wait for Green I guess. Looking hopeful. Been on 13 hours now though, seems quite a long time!

[onion86]

I put it in yesterday morning and went for a drive. Got to the petrol station and wouldn't start up again (I thought oh crap I really should've tested it more than once before hand!). I then had a look and I hadn't tightened the negative enough so the wire had come off the battery (oops).

Started the car 4 times since putting the battery in and driven about 15 miles total. When I'd finished, my handy gauge was telling me that with the engine off but key turned, it's sitting at 12.5v and 12.1v with the lights and fans on, left it steady for about 1 minute just so as not to drain anything unnecessarily. Looking good, will try again tonight and see if it's gone bad overnight.

Also found out last night what the E9 error code on my LC-1 wideband was and it was due to lack of power to run the sensor. E2 error was back up yesterday and I have now disconnected the wideband to stop the error flashing at me.

[Tem]

from experience, once the battery has become completely discharged it is knackered.

Can't agree with that, it's not that simple.

I still have my original battery, built 1999. I has roughly 5 years on the '2, then three years on a Crown (2.8l biggish engine car) and then two years on a turbo Supra. It has been completely discharged several times, more than 10. I have always charged it with a good charger and it's still just fine. It can still hold the charge for over half a year and start the big 3l engine with 10W oils on -30C.

Chargers do have HUGE differences. Most just can't seem to get the full life back to drained batteries. CTEK makes great chargers. They cost a lot, compared to the amperes they put out. But they do make wonders. I have revived several batteries others thought were dead and were about to buy new ones. And they work just fine for years after that, so it's not just for a week or month or so. I think everyone who owns a car should have one.
 m http://www.ctek.com/ m

[enid_b]

fair enough tem, but it does sound like you have a super charger  s:) s:)

most folks i have spoken to about this agree with the 'once its dead its dead' philosophy.
  s:D s:D  
good to see that it is holding a charge onion, i would keep a set of jump leads handy over the winter, just to be on the safe side.  it is quite easy to jump start the 2 though. my drive has a very gentle slope on it, and its not the longest drive in the country. but i was able to roll down in and bump it 90% of the time. i only got stranded in the middle of the road once, and once at a petrol station (but thats a different story   s:D s:D    s:D s:D

[Tem]

fair enough tem, but it does sound like you have a super charger  s:) s:)

most folks i have spoken to about this agree with the 'once its dead its dead' philosophy.

Yeah, I guess it really is kinda super.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  I used to believe in the "dead=dead" till I got the CTEK. It really has a big difference to anything else I've tried. And I'm not even trying to sell them, just a very happy user.  s:D s:D

[ChrisGB]

A good charger certainly helps a lot. There are a few things you can do to save a dead battery. If it only draws current on charge for a very short time, say 5 / 10 minutes, or simply will not draw current, it is sometimes useful to give it a quick pulse of 24v or so (maybe 5 seconds) which can sometimes bring them back to life. Another trick when it wont draw current is a string of quick bursts of reverse polarity (very quick, just a second at a time and rest for 10s for a few minutes). These need doing with caution though as both can lead to an explosion or fire if not carefully managed. Key is to have a charger that you can check current draw with and if you are doing anything that you normally should not, be very sure to disconnect immediately if big current is drawn.

I have bought a few batteries back using these techniques and a modest charger with ammeter. Sometimes they have gone on to work for years, sometimes, they have died in a few more months, sometimes they discharge internally overnight. All depends on how much damage the deep discharge and recovery cycle did. A clever charger manages it so much better and gives much better odds for a recovery.

Chris

[cclarke99]

£225 for a battey charger? Granted thats the top of the range model (I hope) but the cheapest is still more than many batteries. And a lot of modern batteries last 10 years or more without any maintenance at all.

Theres two ways to flatten a battery, through a fast discharge like trying to start the car or a slow discharge, like leaving it standing or with the lights on. In the former case, the battery only actually disharges to about 50% which is not a problem (provided you don't do it too often). In fact, used like this, the theory is that batteries last the same equivalent number of complete discharge-charge cycles. You can either discharge it by say 50% for 1000 cycles or 5% for 10,000 cycles. The slow discharge has a much more serious effect and the longer it continues whilst the battery is completely flat the worse it gets. Just one of these will kill an older battery completely, although if you catch it in time it may recover.

As for overcharging or reverse charging, don't even think of it, whatever a new one might cost it's got to be better than being smothered in hot acid from an exploding battery.

Whats more, even if you manage to revive it, all you're doing is just ensuring that it will let you down again, when it might be much more of a problem. Just one longish distance taxi ride could cost more than a new battery.

[enid_b]

As for overcharging or reverse charging, don't even think of it, whatever a new one might cost it's got to be better than being smothered in hot acid from an exploding battery.

absodiddlyutely..... i would strongly advise not trying this at home, unless you are SURE you know what you are doing

[Tem]

£225 for a battey charger? Granted thats the top of the range model (I hope) but the cheapest is still more than many batteries.

You just have to ask yourself do you need the top model.

If you have the time to charge an empty battery for hours instead of minutes, the smaller models will be just fine. And I'm not sure about car battery prices in UK, but the basic model is going for £28...

 m http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CTEK-PULSE-12V-BA ... 2882wt_754 m


Of course the other option is to always buy a new battery when something goes wrong. In the end it will be more expensive, but the choice is yours.  s;) s;)

[Dyn-Evo]

From experience.....dont waste your time, its not worth the risk, TBH...!   s:D s:D  

Go to halfords, spend £50 on an HB053, (or whatever they call it), and enjoy a worry-free winters driving....  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

For the sake of £50, you simply dont wanna be breaking down at an inconvenient time, in the dark, wet......  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

......If your battery is as old as you suspect, you've had good VFM from it...time for a new one..?

[cclarke99]

If you have the time to charge an empty battery for hours instead of minutes,

Hours or minutes is irrelevant if you're late for that important interview because your battery has died from having the last bit of life squeezed from it. In daily use, if the charging system is working properly you should never have to even look at the battery. When you do it's time to say goodbye.

If you don't use the car often then you may need a separate charger, in which case a simple constant voltage unit with good regulation (and possibly temperature compensation if the car is kept outdoors) will do nicely. If thats what you get for £28 then thats OK.

Looking at the spec for the XS800, I'm not sure what the "desulphation" bit does, the constant current and voltage phases are fine and the pulse charge mode is effectively a PWM equivalent to a constant voltage float. Unfortunately the data doesn't say anything about temperature compensation, neither does it give the output in constant current mode, so it's impossible to say how long it would take to recharge a flat battery. They do specify a maximum 32Ah (it's intended for motorcycle size batteries) so it's going to have to work pretty hard to recharge an MR2 battery.

[Tem]

If you have the time to charge an empty battery for hours instead of minutes,

Hours or minutes is irrelevant if you're late for that important interview because your battery has died from having the last bit of life squeezed from it. In daily use, if the charging system is working properly you should never have to even look at the battery. When you do it's time to say goodbye.

Very good point and that's exactly why you should have a good charger, to prevent the battery death and know in advance when the battery is getting too old. The main function isn't saving you after it has gone empty, though most do use it only for that. It never hurts to charge the battery with a good charger once in a while, it'll keep the battery healthier and alarm you about possible issues before you fail to start the car. Just generic maintenance, like you should do with other parts of the car too, instead of just waiting for them to die.  s8) s8)  

I believe you are wrong about ignoring the battery in a daily use, because it really depends a lot from your daily use. Modern cars have electronics that drain the battery when the car is parked, immobilizers, alarms, radios, etc. Then the start takes quite a bite from the battery too. If your daily driving is mostly short runs, the battery will never get back to full charge and slowly die on you. Even if the alternator is working perfectly. That is more common on wintertime, because a cold battery doesn't charge as fast as a warm one and a partial charge doesn't handle cold that well. Which is also the reason why many battery issues tend to happen on winter. It's not because the batteries couldn't handle the cold temps if they have a good charge, they just slowly die without proper care, if you only rely on the alternator.

And you can say goodbye, or just charge it.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Looking at the spec for the XS800, I'm not sure what the "desulphation" bit does, the constant current and voltage phases are fine and the pulse charge mode is effectively a PWM equivalent to a constant voltage float. Unfortunately the data doesn't say anything about temperature compensation, neither does it give the output in constant current mode, so it's impossible to say how long it would take to recharge a flat battery. They do specify a maximum 32Ah (it's intended for motorcycle size batteries) so it's going to have to work pretty hard to recharge an MR2 battery.

Did you check the tech specs and other tabs? The output is only 0.8A, so you can roughly calculate how long it takes, guessing how empty your flat battery actually is. They also give rough examples under tha Battery-tab. If you want a faster one, the XS3600 (3.6A) is roughly £40 (ebay.co.uk), I have that one myself.
 m http://www.ctek.com/EN-GB/XS-800.aspx?p=features m

XS800 loads a pair of 120Ah batteries (roughly equal to 240Ah) just fine, there's no 32Ah maximum in real life.  s8) s8)

[onion86]

Well I thought I'd try but most of you were right  s:P s:P

The battery had gone down enough so it wouldn't start on Thursday. Yesterday I went and picked up a 054 battery from Halfords. It's got more power so should hopefully cope a bit better for if I upgrade the sound system and for all the gauges. It's a lot bigger length ways than the stock battery, and slightly smaller width ways so doesn't fit into the battery tray properly. I've just put it on top of it and done the nut up. It's nice and tight and snug so shouldn't be a problem. Should I remove the plastic battery tray completely or is it a good idea to keep one in there so leave it as is/buy a larger one?

[OlberJ]

The trays are good if the battery ever leaks, stops the tray corroding.

You'll be able to pick one up cheap enough so i'd defo get one in there.

[AckersMR2]

My battery was dead yesterday, we went out in it Wednesday last week and it fired on the first turn sluggish turn so hardly surprised.
I've got a trickle charger that my bike is plugged into through the winter and the lights on it show its holding 6-12v, been on charge all day but not got up to the green light yet, see if its ok tomorrow but might be time for a new battery?

[mrzwei]

You should be getting 12.4 - 12.6 volts across the terminals on a 'fit' battery.
Much less after charging then get it tested at a tyre / battery place you can trust.
Trouble is, when they go, they go. My last two batteries failed after long drives, then parked overnight, then nothing the next day.

Possibly an alternator problem, you should get around 13-14 volts across the terminals when the engine is running but more likely the battery.
A full charge may fix it. Most modern chargers will fully charge before they just trickle. Overnight should do it.