Engine rebuild - If money no object.

[mrzwei]

As another thought if I was to buy a recon engine does anyone have the faintest idea how much the revised pistons and seals etc from the 03-> engines would cost as I could add them in whilst engine is out???

please, forget about a recon engine. If the engine that is reconditioned was because of oval bore syndrome, its going to use a lot of oil at the least (been there done it). Think about it, the bores are bigger than they should be. You need to bore out bigger and fit bigger pistons or sleeve it so that the bore diamater is reduced back to what it should be.

But this is what you pay the engineering shop to do, check out the engine, sort out the oval bores etc by reboring and fitting new pistons and rings - simples  s:D s:D  . If they didn't do that then they were a crap firm. Expensive though because they have to take the engine apart but that's all you are going to get in an exchange anyway. If you buy second hand or on the bay then 'caveat emptor'.

[muffdan]

As another thought if I was to buy a recon engine does anyone have the faintest idea how much the revised pistons and seals etc from the 03-> engines would cost as I could add them in whilst engine is out???

please, forget about a recon engine. If the engine that is reconditioned was because of oval bore syndrome, its going to use a lot of oil at the least (been there done it). Think about it, the bores are bigger than they should be. You need to bore out bigger and fit bigger pistons or sleeve it so that the bore diamater is reduced back to what it should be.

But this is what you pay the engineering shop to do, check out the engine, sort out the oval bores etc by reboring and fitting new pistons and rings - simples  s:D s:D  . If they didn't do that then they were a crap firm. Expensive though because they have to take the engine apart but that's all you are going to get in an exchange anyway. If you buy second hand or on the bay then 'caveat emptor'.

Depends what you mean by 'rebore'. You can't just hone the cylinder walls and fit new stock pistons and rings. You need to bore it out and fit bigger pistons. Sourcing the pistons and rings in the new correct larger size, sorting out a headgasket solution and having the block accurately machined to accomodate the new pistons on top of the labour for stripping and rebuilding the engine is going to take time and money, comparable to a 2zz or V6 swap. It'll also technically need to be declared to the insurance company as the capacity is larger, increasing the policy premium (if they'll even cover it) and reducing after market resale value. All true of the 2zz and v6 swaps too of course, but with no where near the performance gains.

There's a reason most people in this situation go for a second hand 1zz swap rather than a rebuild.

[markiii]

there are steps between stock pistons and a performance overbore, toyota make 3 (from memory( different sized pistons to allow you to overbore by a few thou to sort out engien issues.

unless your bores are ridiculously oval one of these sets should do

personally if budget allows I'd v6 it, but beware you will also need suspension upgrades to do it properly


however as has been said the resale market for a engine swapped car isn't going to be huge, so you will be wating for that particular buyer

it depends on how long you are keeping the car

or, maybe you could part ex it as is to someone with a v6/2zz e.t.c who wants a  new project and save yourself any development costs

[muffdan]

yep, depends on the amount of ovalling. On my second engine, you could see the bore out on cylinder 4 and feel the ridge with your finger. Must have been over a mm larger in diameter, I kid you not! That engine was a reconditioned engine that presumably suffered from oval bores/precats in the first place. The engine always used oil from day 1 and it eventually got to the point where there was visible smoke out the back. Should have gone for a replacement facelift engine in the first place.

[The Lum]

Could anyone point me in the direction of post face lift engines for sale? Been looking but had no real luck.

[Anonymous]

only got halfway down the thread but thought I would add, from experience, getting the same people to supply and fit the engine can save you a massive ball ache if anything goes wrong it avoids the finger pointing and slopey shoulders.

[Dyn-Evo]

Re: V6 unreliability.....

I'll go along with Nigel on this: His was the first 3VZ Mk3 car Paul did, mine was the first 1MZ...

Now we have both had a few problems, as have a couple of the more recent ones.
However, ALL these problems have been "teething" probs with the conversion, rather than anything to do with the engine as such....

When you fit a totally different engine into a car, there are going to be these little niggles, but most have now been identified and sorted:

Gear linkage fouling on the pass window switch.That is resolved by running one linkage down the drivers side.
Mk3 coolant systen not really up to the flow rates of a V6 at higher revs (fitting an ally Koyo race rad sorts this).
Gear linkage snapping (fitting an M8 rather than the stock M6 sorts this).
There were a couple of other niggles, TBH, but none worth mentioning as they were very minor, and will not recurr on new conversions.......

Wills's problems were not swap-related, and the engine mounts fitted to all new conversions will be the uprated type, anyway!
My car has been pretty good, barring the above. The rad issue has been identified from day 1, but the cause took a few months to nail: so I suppose with the Koyo fitted, the stock coolant cap can be used, then, rather than the uprated one..?

Anyway, personally I'd recommend anyone having 1ZZ problems to seriously consider a V6 conversion: ploughing thousands of £££££ into a 1ZZ just seems pointless to me: you can start at an effortless 200hp, and if you wish, spend £££££ on upping that, if you deem it worth it....  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Disclaimer: no...I dont work for Woodsport....I'm just telling it how it is..!   s:D s:D

[WillsSayers]

Yes, to further the points raised on the V6....... My Koyo rad should hopefully arrive at Woodsport today to solve my radiator issue - well, the main issue being the fact my old radiator corroded, but the Koyo is a necessary upgrade unless you want to top coolant up every so often!

The issue I had with drive-shafts being pulled was completely unrelated to anything Woodsport has done to the engine – turns out my car has had accident damage in the past, with one of my rear wheels being noticeably twisted and offset. I've had another couple of niggles but none of these were caused by Woodsport or their work – just wear and tear. Fantastic thing being, if the parts Woodsport have supplied have failed shortly after the conversion, Paul's been more than happy to replace the parts at his cost (this happened with one of my gearbox cables). They're a truly fantastic company to do business with.

As for the car itself, it's seriously fun. The sound, the torque and the power.... I believe they're 220-ish bhp with some headwork (offered by Woodsport at an additional cost), a serious upgrade from the 140bhp 1zz as stock!

[muffdan]

Will, did you get the inlet manifold fouling the cross member under torque issue sorted?

[WillsSayers]

No, I didn't. Paul had a go at filing some of the cross member away, which has made it far less prominent. However, seems the problem with mine is the fact the torque mounts could do with replacing. And if they're being replaced, may as well uprate them, hence why I wouldn't mind sourcing a pair of Kirk's mounts  s:) s:)  Just not managed to get any yet!

[markiii]

No, I didn't. Paul had a go at filing some of the cross member away, which has made it far less prominent. However, seems the problem with mine is the fact the torque mounts could do with replacing. And if they're being replaced, may as well uprate them, hence why I wouldn't mind sourcing a pair of Kirk's mounts  s:) s:)  Just not managed to get any yet!

will if your mounts are shagged then you can get some complete uprated poly ones from tworus whihc are supposed to be better than kirks as they are as stiff without teh vibrations

think I'd go for them

[loadswine]

The so called "problems" with the V6 conversions have been mostly minor and all sorted impeccably by Woodsport.
These issues are nothing compared to some of the issues on engine mods and conversions that have been done in the past.
The big difference with Woodsport is that swaps are reported on in detail , so the number will appear more significant than in reality.
Looking back on conversions past, very few turbo conversions have been fit and forget. If you modify a car to this extent, you have to accept one or two issues may well arise.

[WillsSayers]

Looking back on conversions past, very few turbo conversions have been fit and forget. If you modify a car to this extent, you have to accept one or two issues may well arise.

That's a very fair and valid point to be honest, I think I've seen more accounts of people out of pockets due to turbo's gone wrong than I have V6s.

will if your mounts are shagged then you can get some complete uprated poly ones from tworus whihc are supposed to be better than kirks as they are as stiff without the vibrations

think I'd go for them

Cool, I'll have a butchers at this now, ta  s:) s:)

[muffdan]

In case I've gotten anybody's back up, I'd like to make clear that it wasn't my intention. I made NO claims that V6 conversions were less reliable than a turbo'd 1zz. I was comparing a V6 (and 2zz) conversion primarily to a replacement 1zz. The engine conversion will be less reliable, it has to be! It also seems that the v6 has more issues than a 2zz swap and I'm sure it's down to more modifications being carried out for the v6 swap. Although problems are (usually) minor with the V6, they are present and they do require back and forth trips to get sorted. Not ideal if you live 100's of miles away no matter how minor the issue. It is of course a side effect of any major modifications to a car. I'm sure some issues will be common, and others unique to each conversion, but they will be there.

And yes, turbo'd twos can be even more reliable! You can't beat a stock 1zz for reliability.   s:D s:D

[WillsSayers]

I don't think you've got anyone's back up mate, we're just passionate when it comes to tempting people to V6'ing  s;) s;)

And yes, turbo'd twos can be even more reliable! You can't beat a stock 1zz for reliability.   s:D s:D

I could argue that the stock ones are less reliable then the V6 engines - after all, none of them have starved themselves of oil and died yet! *touch wood*

[Dyn-Evo]

I don't think you've got anyone's back up mate, we're just passionate when it comes to tempting people to V6'ing  s;) s;)

+1...!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[loadswine]

Not been too many 2zz conversions documented on here, to refer to either. So difficult to say for sure how many or what type of issues people experienced.  If it comes down to it, a lot of mods could give issues.
At least anybody considering a V6 ( and I think we've probably gone way off topic by now!) will be fully aware of what folks have experienced and definitely how enthusiastic the owners of these things are!   s:) s:)

[OlberJ]

Not off topic at all, from speaking to Calum last night he's considering either swap for the future   s:D s:D

[paul Woods]

If i may chuck my 2p in, I think some of the negative V6 reliability comments on this thread are based on not looking at the whole picture. Putting a v6 engine into a roadster is still a relatively new conversion in the UK, and as such has a huge learning curve. I'd be a fool if i said i knew everything that was going to happen or was needed with such a conversion from day 1, hell Toyota can't even get that right, sometimes it takes thousands of miles of roadtesting to shake a bug out, something that we would never find when building the car.

Take the radiators for example, we presumed the stock Toyota rad would be ample for the job, after all a stock mk1 and mk2 rad copes with anything the V6 throws at it, however we assumed Toyota made the mk3 rad out of more than two pieces of cardboard glued 10mm apart! Well not quite but in reality it's not that much better! Only after many miles of testing did it make itself apparent that the stock rad does not cut the mustard. So what did we at Woodsport do about it? Well most garages reactions would be to do nothing, but we offered to fit the KOYO rad upgrades LABOUR FREE to any of our conversions, and in two cases that offer was taken up. We also discovered the torque mounts need a polyurethane upgrade to stop excess engine movement, again all upgraded for free as part of a recall.... i believe Toyota themselves are partial to the odd recall too at the moment   s:D s:D  

What i am getting at is, ask us in 2 or 3 years time if we know it all, i will probably still say no, but i do know that any new conversions we do has learnt from anything that has needed to be upgraded on previous attempts. The one we have just built for example features many tweaks and improvements, and as with all of my "babies" it too is welcome back to Woodsport anytime for a free upgrade in any area it is found lacking. None of my customers ever go wanting for free upgrades or tweaks, a conversion with us is a conversion for life.... not many garages can stand by that. We had to do the very same relative number of ongoing tweaks and upgrades to our first Mk1 v6's, mk1 3sgtes, mk2 v6s and even our v6 celicas, christ my v8 mk1 will need years of tinkering to nail everything down, but every Mk2 v6 that leaves us these days leaves with us knowing every possible tweak has been found out or exploited by now, but such things take time to show themselves and develop, or sometimes not!

In all the v6 engine itself is hugely reliable, of the 120 or so v6 engines we have swapped into various Mr2's (yes 120!) we have seen one total engine failure, what can i say, got to be the odd bad apple in the barrel, i bet more than 1 in 120 1zz-fe engines bite the dust well before the 100k mark, we only just start using the v6 at this point!   s:D s:D  So yes they are very very good engines indeed.

Ok i'm biased, but would i rebuild a 1zz? hell no. I owned a roadster for two years and hated every minute of its stock engine. Woods out.

[Paulm]

I will comment on this thread when a I get the thing MOT'd and on the road

[ChrisGB]

Been thinking about this a lot lately. 1zz staying N/A limits you in some ways. If you want to get proper power, you are going to need to rev it higher and get it breathing up there. I considered stage 2 cams on an otherwise healthy engine, but when I did the maths, it worked out nearly as expensive as doing a 2zz swap, but for less power. To get it to work I would have needed to replace the ECU with a stand alone unit, replace valve springs and cams, shorten intermediate gear ratios and when all added together, it came to close on £3500. If you are repairing as well, it will cost more, so best bet is 2zz. Of course V6 is another option, but at the cost of a little weight addition in the rear.

Of course, anything that involves opening up the engine, or changing wiring away from stock has the potential to ruin reliability, you want to see the hugely expensive processes that are carried out by the automotive industry to validate even quite small changes. Even then they can get it wrong. Just look at the mess CTS have made for Toyota recently.

My conclusion is that economically, if you are staying N/A, stage 1 cams and some mapping with manifold and exhaust is as far as it is worth going. For a track car, stage 2 could be worth doing, but on road, shorter gearing is a must and this pushes the game into 2zz conversion money.

Chris

[Anonymous]

Yep I think that's the best way to look at it Chris, I certainly wouldn't change what I've got now as I think with the suspension and chassis mods the cars pretty much there - and that's the thing, the engine is not everything on these cars and I think people sometimes get blinded by the quest for more power and forget just how good this car is in it's own right - but that just me.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Just carry on cutting and chopping and changing - it makes a good well looked after fairly standard car worth more.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Rob.

[Rogue]

There's an option here that no-one's mentioned yet, and that is to purchase a short block from Toyota to rebuild your engine. Because of the issues with the early 1ZZ-FE engines, these are really cheap - just ~£660+vat exchange, and come with new revised pistons, rods and crank installed. With labour and gasket set it's still gong to work out more expensive than a low mileage late revision engine, but does effectively mean you're back to zero miles. This is what we do for all of our MR2 Championship mk3 race cars.

With regards to tuning, if staying I4 I *personally* would not go down the route of increasing the performance on a 1ZZ-FE. As others have pointed out, by the time you've spent out for a mild tune you could have replaced the stock engine with a 2ZZ-GE which not only gives you an extra 50 ponies out of the box but is a much better platform for future modifications. Definitely ensure that you get the corresponding gearbox as well since the ratios are matched to the variable cam timing's lift point.

[Anonymous]

There's an option here that no-one's mentioned yet, and that is to purchase a short block from Toyota to rebuild your engine. Because of the issues with the early 1ZZ-FE engines, these are really cheap - just ~£660+vat exchange, and come with new revised pistons, rods and crank installed. With labour and gasket set it's still gong to work out more expensive than a low mileage late revision engine, but does effectively mean you're back to zero miles. This is what we do for all of our MR2 Championship mk3 race cars.

With regards to tuning, if staying I4 I *personally* would not go down the route of increasing the performance on a 1ZZ-FE. As others have pointed out, by the time you've spent out for a mild tune you could have replaced the stock engine with a 2ZZ-GE which not only gives you an extra 50 ponies out of the box but is a much better platform for future modifications. Definitely ensure that you get the corresponding gearbox as well since the ratios are matched to the variable cam timing's lift point.

Is that an option or a sales pitch.   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Why would I want to stay 14.  s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:    s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:

[muffdan]

I will comment on this thread when a I get the thing MOT'd and on the road

I think you can justify starting a new thread for you Audi 4.2l conversion. Start it soon please!   s:D s:D