IC, CC or WI???

[AC]

The one thing that my turbo install hasn't got is any kind of intake cooling (minor detail really  s:flame: :flame: s:flame:  ), now whilst the ambient air temp at present probably means I can still get away with it, come summer I may find myself with nothing more than a hot air pump under the right foot, not to mention subsequent engine damage  s:roll: :roll: s:roll: .  As the blower went on back end of Oct I guess I timed it as best as poss to run without cooling, but the next item on my turbo agenda is to get something sorted in the next month or two (ha, if this winter ever ends), especially as the Noble session made 230hp at 9psi.

I've started weighing up the 3 possible solutions (if there's a 4th or 5th someone please tell me?) of which only 1 will be used, been reading through past posts and had the odd conversation, but as I embody the saying 'a little knowledge is dangerous' any constructive input would be much appreciated.  I've started a pro's & con's list off;

Intercooler
Initial plan would be to use the SP set-up from Matt's latest turbo kit design, partly as the most space I have is forward and down of the battery and the exhaust system would have to be changed to try and emulate the C2 or Hass IC set-up.
+ Almost off the shelf solution; IC, brackets, pipe (IC to TB) ready to go.  OE set-up on TTE and Matt's latest is larger and more efficient than the original and track proven on his motor.
+ DIY install, so no anticipated costs on the fitting front.
+ Fit and forget relatively speaking.
+ Maybe worth another 10hp?

~ Finished costings are looking around £500 with a nearly new IC.

- Not the most effective cooling solution, could still suffer with high intake temps/laggy-ness on a warm day.

Charge Cooling
Other than Phil's PWR kit being for sale (though that might have changed?) I don't have a great deal of finished options identified.
+ The most effective single cooling solution, possibly worth a further 20hp?

- Not a DIY job (for me anyway), quite an involved install from what I can see.
- So labour costs an additional consideration, possibly a full day's?
- Finished cost may be as high as £1000 once fitted  s:scared: :scared: s:scared: .

Water Injection
The rank outsider, but my Apexi kit had WI as the only cooling source on the prev car and DAZ400 reckoned it was all that was needed (to the point that it appears he removed the Apexi IC!).
+ Least space critical and I have old ally elbow with threaded insert for injector so should fit easiet of all 3.  Probably DIY as well.
+ Cooling performance tuneable (on 2D upwards kits) and possibly more effective than IC???

~ Finished cost for new kit looks no greater than IC option.

- Not fit and forget, needs regular refills.


I realise all 3 will need a follow up mapping session, thats fairly unavoidable (well planned actually).  With a cooling solution fitted a HP fuel pump would be the last and final mod.  The re-map might then make 250hp, probably as far as the kit will go and tbh as far as I will go with it.  So the cooling needs to be no more than this.  I'm leaning towards IC at the mo.  Any idea's?

[muffdan]

IC will get the job done most of the time. Having ran the larger IC on my own car for over a year, I can confirm it will run nicely for every-day driving, but it will suffer from heat saturation. Sustained boost will cause it to pretty much stop working and power will drop off sharply.

Go for the charge cooler if you can, but you're right in it's not cheap. Parts wise you can get everything you need except the rad (and rad plumbing) from chargecooling.co.uk. Fitting it is another matter. If you want someone else to fit it for you, you'll do well to get it all in for under £1000.

[AC]

Go for the charge cooler if you can, but you're right in it's not cheap. Parts wise you can get everything you need except the rad (and rad plumbing) from chargecooling.co.uk. Fitting it is another matter. If you want someone else to fit it for you, you'll do well to get it all in for under £1000.

Cripes  s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:  !  In that case, with re-map and HP fuel pump, I will have knocked out over £5k on this  s:scared: :scared: s:scared:  and it isn't exactly a major project.  Oh well.

Jason, did you ever measure your intake temps when later stage IC, ideally after spirited road use in summer?  I'd like to know what if any reduction under the 70's this IC might achieve?

[custardavenger]

You can do it cheaper than that. My Charge cooler isn't fitted yet but I have all the components and it was no more than £400 spent. I also have WI, which is cheap as long as you don't go for a custom tank like I did.
I can give you any details you need.

Which ever way you go you'll need it mapped. Why the Hp fuel pump?

[AC]

Why the Hp fuel pump?

Number of reasons now, but mainly as Noble highlighted it when mapping as they said even with max fuel adjust on EMB it was at it's limits, as if it could do with more pressure in the rail. I have 310cc 2zz injectors in which whilst bigger aren't exactly huge so the extra pressure may help with achieving greater fueling levels. I've also read here that it's a worthwhile safety measure and I understand a fairly easy mod. Was thinking about an MWR unit, 255lph, $115 plus del and tax.

[markiii]

you can do chargecooling on a budget given patience mine cam in at about £600

the only expensive bit is the heat exchanger

£40 ish for a metro rad
£30 for some hose
£200 for resevoir and pump

it can be done with patience

[custardavenger]

I'm not too sure that the HP pump will sort out you fuelling issue, You may find you need injectors as well.

I suppose WI may be good for you as running 50water/50meth, as normally installing it you would take fuel off when the WI reaches max.

Did Noble not suggest which way to go? re cooling?

[AC]

you can do chargecooling on a budget given patience mine cam in at about £600

Was that £600 total parts cost, with self fit?

I'm not in any real rush, well no more than summer is  s:lol: :lol: s:lol: .

Did Noble not suggest which way to go? re cooling?

Not really, well no more than that a PWR barrel would fit in the area where the stock airbox was and where my intake piping from comp to TB now runs, but as it was the first map cooling wasn't on the agenda, just set up. S'pose I should've asked further  s:? :? s:? .

[custardavenger]

That's cool. Well as I'm sure Mark will tell he got a steal on a PWR. They're not cheap. The option I went for was a Frozen boost/silicone intakes CC. then next most expensive thing is the pump, then the tank (if needed) and the silicone. I got my metro rad from ebay for £13 and the pump and CC from Silicone intakes.

[muffdan]

never got actual temp readings with the rad, just what I noticed through the peddal.

Just to re-interate, the price I gave was if you are getting a garage to install the kit for you. It takes a lot of time and time is a lot of money! If you can be bothered to fit the kit yourself and arrange any custom pipe work etc yourself, you can definitely get it done for around the £700 mark I think. Below is a copy of my invoice for the main parts. Rad was an extra £40, and then there was a set of elbows/adapters etc to connect it all up along with inlet pipe work etc to get the barrel hooked into the intake.

Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x 5" x 6" Chargecooler (5x6) = £365.00
1 x AVT / Bosch Chargecooler Pump (CCPump) = £89.99
2 x AVT Universal Chargecooler Piping Kit (Pipekit) = £70.00
1 x AVT Alloy Chargecooler Header Tank (CCTank) = £65.00
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: £589.99
Flat Rate (Best Way): £9.95
Total: £599.94

[AC]

That's cool. Well as I'm sure Mark will tell he got a steal on a PWR. They're not cheap. The option I went for was a Frozen boost/silicone intakes CC. then next most expensive thing is the pump, then the tank (if needed) and the silicone. I got my metro rad from ebay for £13 and the pump and CC from Silicone intakes.

Interesting, I'll try and check it out, ta.  When is your CC install planned?

[evileye_wrx]

My kit is still for sale. Same price.

I'm thinking that if it doesn't sell soon I will probably get it fitted in the VXT along with a new exhaust at the back end of the summer. If it sells before then I'm not too fussed.

Phil

[custardavenger]

That's cool. Well as I'm sure Mark will tell he got a steal on a PWR. They're not cheap. The option I went for was a Frozen boost/silicone intakes CC. then next most expensive thing is the pump, then the tank (if needed) and the silicone. I got my metro rad from ebay for £13 and the pump and CC from Silicone intakes.

Interesting, I'll try and check it out, ta.  When is your CC install planned?

Not until the summer. I plan to get the WI up and running first and then get a proper tune. I'm probably getting a new manifold made first as well. I plan to have custom pipework made for the CC or I would have in installed now.

[AC]

Whilst investigating the IC route further the Mk2 3SGTE SW20 side air vent positioned set up kept appearing (from ebay as it happens  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  ).

Maybe a stupid question but, has anybody experimented/tried fitting an IC in the n/s air vent on the Mk3?  I understand it's a low pressure intake and that's a compromise straight off, but wasn't it also LP on the Mk2?

Another thought that crossed my mind was whether an IC positioned directly below the engine cover vents/slashes, where the drip tray normally exists.  Anybody tried, any thoughts???

[custardavenger]

Mine currently has an IC in the engine cove vent. I have fans permanently pulling air through it. It does work but is not as efficient as a CC would be, that's why I'm changing it.

I may have missed it, Which turbo kit have you got? Also I'm assuming the BHP number is calculated crank?

There are many options for underslung IC but I really believe you money is better spent on a CC.

[AC]

Cheers Rob.

Which turbo kit have you got? Also I'm assuming the BHP number is calculated crank?

Apexi, not many others with same (if any?).  The HP is at the flywheel according to Noble's dyno.

Some pics on here if you haven't seen the kit before.  Not that dissimilar to the PE.
 l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27099 l

[custardavenger]

Oh OK. Well that set up screams CC looking at the pipe routing.

[markiii]

agreed I reckon a 6" x 4" barrel would fit happily

[evileye_wrx]

mine is an 8 x 4 barrel. Enough to provide cooling for up to 290bhp so more than enough for any set up that doesn't involve changing the engine internals

Phil

[markiii]

so what are you selling it for Phil?

[evileye_wrx]

I bought it for the '2 then sold it before I fitted it. I don't really want to fit it to the VXT as i'd have to do an exhaust to get any benefit and that's around £1300 extra. Then i'd need a remap and then your into uprated suspension, brakes etc. Next thing you know you've spent another 5 grand. I don't really have the cash, or the inclination to do all that to this car as I don't know how long I'll keep it.

I still have the kit in the box in my shed waiting for someone to come and take it away

Phil

[Dyn-Evo]

Re: the original question.....

Thats a difficult one: I did a lot of research with WI a few years ago, when I had my Mk1 AE101 Supercharger setup.
The plan was to replace the VERY inefficient IC setup with a WI install...Theory being that the "latent heat of evaporation" would extract more heat out of the charge than the IC.....

That did prove the case, but I have to point out that if the IC setup had been optimal (ie: front-mounted, and a lot bigger), then the A2A would be better.

The Mk3 has a similar setup to the Mk1, with the addition of the very useful passenger side vent!
I also played with a CC setup from a Subaru Legacy (cheap off Ebay!), which is very similar to the GT4 CC setup commonly used by the MK2 tubby guys......

I was planning to mount the CC setup with a Spal fitted, and a custom pass-side vent...pretty much what the Mk3 has, basically...  s:D s:D  


The CC is probably the best overall way to go, but an optimised A2A setup will beat it every time: however, with the MR2, this optimal setup is almost impossible to achieve (without a lot of clever pipework, and loads of pressure-drop!).

The WI route would give good results, but I must stress its not simply a case of buying an Aquamist 1S, fitting it, and voila!

Ideally, you need to match the water (or methanol) to the fuelling, and the whole setup needs tuning......potentially a very good setup, especially with higher boosts...but requires correct implementation....  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Overall, CC would be my choice!

[philster_d]

Thats the same charge cooler I looked at first. I thought it could fit if you moved the battery to the front then there would be enough space there in its place.

[Tem]

Charge Cooling
Other than Phil's PWR kit being for sale (though that might have changed?) I don't have a great deal of finished options identified.
+ The most effective single cooling solution, possibly worth a further 20hp?

- Not a DIY job (for me anyway), quite an involved install from what I can see.
- So labour costs an additional consideration, possibly a full day's?
- Finished cost may be as high as £1000 once fitted  s:scared: :scared: s:scared: .

Unless you're set for the Chargecooler brand, you might wanna check this thread too:
 l viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27056 l

I'm looking at some 300 euros with everything. The A2W cooler is about 150e shipped, the Bosch water pump was about 40e and a VW radiator another 40e, with 5e for parts to mod it. 13e for the hose, about 10e for two bleed/fill points and I count no value to connectors made from leftover metal around the garage. And then some for the coolant too, don't know the amount yet. Also bought a fan for 25e, but not sure if I even need to use it.

Maybe I should make a kit out of it and sell it for £500.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Captain Vimes]

I had exactly the same dilema about 6 months ago. If you search for my previous posts you'll find some pictures where I was trying the ic in different locations.

I came to the conclusion the cc is the way to go but it's the most expensive. So the question is, do you want to spend that much cash? I decided to create my own ic install and it came in around £200 in parts. I added a shield between the exhaust and ic and took off the rain shield too. While I don't have logged results, after some sustained WOT runs, the intake pipe was warm but it could still be held comfortably, unlike the pipes on the other side of the ic!

If it gets too hot in the summer then I was going to make a scoop to fit on top of the engine lid (maybe take an old impreza scoop...). Which should bring more air through the ic. In my mind, there should be a pressure drop behind the car too which should help pull the air through. I may need to make some more vents behind the ic too but it's working well for me (205 bhp, 6.5psi).

You could always go for ic and add wi later which is triggered by a temperature signal...