DT Alignment - Ding Day (2nd Op result)

[AC]

Has anybody noticed a deterioration in handling since having a 4 wheel alignment at Demon Tweeks last Saturday?

Mine is now an absolute bag of s**t.  Yesterday in the wet it was truly horrific, tank slappin on 2/3 throttle on a dual carriage way in 4th on the straight  s:scared: :scared: s:scared: , then at low speed round a bend off throttle front then back broke away (wtf?).  In the dry today I am getting some weird sensations, bump steer, white line steer, on off throttle causes almost a steered sensation in straight lines, feels like the front and rear are pointing in very slightly different directions.  In short the car has gone from feeling planted to feeling like a crab  s:evil: :evil: s:evil: .

Thing is whilst there I took it back as the steering wheel was not level after the first go, further adjustment performed no change to the wheel level.  Having studied both results of the adj's I can't work it out, on the second adj one reading that was fine on the first was then out!  It's left me wondering whether either DT's equipment is knack'd or their technician is FUS or maybe I'm just the unlucky one  s:? :? s:?  .  One thing is for sure the 2 is not a car that can afford to be mis-aligned, not if you plan keeping it for anytime.

So what next; back to DT's and waste £40 on fuel and 4+ hours of my life and it still possibly be toss, go to local Mr T who first did a 4WA and it was spot on but costs £75 +vat, or somewhere completely different.    s:x :x s:x    s:evil: :evil: s:evil:    s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

[Anonymous]

Steering wheel shouldn't be 100% straight on a good alignment due to most roads sloping to the left  s;) s;)

Checked tyre pressures? Post up the printout they gave you post alignment, see if there's anything obvious there.

[mrzwei]

That's an interesting post, just had the alingnment done on my Saab twice. First time the wheel was off center to the right, then they re-dit it and it was fine, now driving in Germany for a few days and the wheel is off centre to thr left. I think I will now give in   s:D s:D

[markiii]

do you have before and after specs?

[AC]

Steering wheel shouldn't be 100% straight on a good alignment due to most roads sloping to the left  s;) s;)

Checked tyre pressures? Post up the printout they gave you post alignment, see if there's anything obvious there.

Yeah I appreciate the road camber can steer the car but on a flat car park the wheel should be level in a straight line on a good alignment, imo anyway.  Admittedly I am unfortunately one of these people who hates it when the wheel is out, but right now I have a wheel out and s***e handling.  The tyre pressures is a good shout, that thought crossed my mind today when I walked around the car (because of course you can see a bad alignment  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  ).  Anyway, printouts;

First check


Return Check


I know the equipment is/can be sensitive but why after the first check would the rear n/s toe have gone out, from 0*11' to 0*16' and yet the rear o/s camber have come in, from -1*52' to -1*41'?

[mrzwei]

This was a front wheel to rear wheeh alignment (ie they call it four wheel) and I looked at the laser reading and it seemed ok. It was on a Saab so I don't think they can alter the back geometry anyway.

[philster_d]

I would start with tyre pressures too.

[AC]

Ok just checked pressures with my Halfords digital gauge;

front o/s 27
front n/s 26

both rears 32

Next step now is another alignment, not a happy bunny.

[FGrob]

Hi Andy.

What set-up have you on the back, standard or lowered - lowering springs or adjustable coilover's, also have you any adjustable arms on the back.

Rob.

[AC]

Hi Rob

I have TTE lowering springs only, were fitted by Mr T.

Prior to DT's the car was last 4 WA'd by my local Mr T when it was on the standard springs and it drove straight and well after that on both the standard and the lowered springs (wasn't re aligned after lowering, though I did think about it).

Cheers

Andrew

[markiii]

speak to DT first explain yojur problem and the fact that its not easy to get back to them

they may refund your original  costs

[FGrob]

Hi Rob

I have TTE lowering springs only, were fitted by Mr T.

Prior to DT's the car was last 4 WA'd by my local Mr T when it was on the standard springs and it drove straight and well after that on both the standard and the lowered springs (wasn't re aligned after lowering, though I did think about it).

Cheers

Andrew

Have you jacked up the back end of the car to check for play in the wheels, also you might want to check for any loose bolts etc, could be ones come loose. Remember on the front and middle tie bars to tighten the bolt head and not the nut as they are self locking nuts.

Not sure if there's much come back on DT as you drove the car away and it's been over a week since the work was carried out, how did the car feel when you drove home??

Also check for oil leaks around the shocks - just in case one's blown.

Just a couple of suggestions.

Rob

[Two's Company]

I had mine done on the same day and whilst it wasn't out much, it does feel better now so I don't think it was the equipment at 'Tweeks.  

I had a a 4W alignment at DT a couple of years ago and the handling was way out after they had done - fortunately I noticed on the first roundabout after I left and they blamed the (old) machine. I was a bit suspicious when the technician gave me the keys and said 'see what it feels like'.

[Wabbitkilla]

Hmmmm... been reading through this on & off, I had mine done on the same day and they only found one angle a little bit out. OSR toe was a bit wayward and thus thrust angle, they adjusted it and handling has been spot on since.

Did they have to heat up any of the bolts? It does sound like something has loosened up after the alignment or even 'sprung' out of position. You need to have a look underneath and track down the cause.

[markiii]

what doesn;t help is that teh Toyot specs are a mile wide,  so being green just means its within that barn door sized window

look at your left and right camber, it was actaully better before teh alignment as the 2 figures were more closelty matched, even though they are currently within spec

I always aim for a particular spec, rather it just being within teh window

[philster_d]

Mine were nearly all red but also pretty perfectly matched. Who knows what setup the last person was going for though.

[AC]

Yeah, rather concerningly (now) the DT tech did have the blow torch fired up, think it was for the front o/s track rod, though not entirely sure as the tech didn't provide

After the second adj I did also get the "that should be better now" response......

Anyway, rightly or wrongly, I'm now booked in to my local Mr T this Saturday for the second opinion/rectification (this is the same Mr T who last aligned it and afterwards it was spot on, so I'm reverting to the 'do what you know works' course of action).  I'll get them to check all the suspension points, arms, bars, etc for play or looseness.

[Green George]

what doesn;t help is that the Toyot specs are a mile wide,  so being green just means its within that barn door sized window

So what specification should the geometry be set to with TTE springs?

I read somewhere for fast road / track the following was recommended but this is only hearsay:

Camber:         -1.25 (front)   -1.75 (rear)

Toe in: 0.5mm (front)    3mm (rear)

Would that be a good starting point?

[AC]

Managed to get my alignment 2nd opinion yesterday at my local Mr T, would have been last Sat but they rang me to say only four of their tech's are trained to use the alignment equipment (and non of them were working that day).  In one respect I was bouyed to learn that not any old monkey would jump on the job (it was also encouraging to see they had a bay dedicated seperated from the general multi-bay workshop).

So, first difficulty was the fact I had TTE springs fitted as they suspected the settings should change for these over standard springs but the [Toyota specified] alignment equipment didn't have any values associated.  Based on the fact that before DT's knack'd up my alignment it was set to the standard specs yet running the TTE springs I decided that that would have to do.  So technician Andy Henderson set off to work at 11.30am firstly checking all suspension pick up points, bushes, sway bars, etc, and reported all was fine.  The process all in all took well over two hours (unlike DT's 30ish mins) and the findings were that front track and rear toe were out.  Having compared the DT print with the Mr T print the settings values seem identical so I can only conclude that it is down to technician competence.  The fact that DT's were knocking our alignments out in 'record times' does now make me wonder whether the tech was either bored, 'snow blinded' by repetition or worse of all incompetent!  Either way lessons learned for me are 1. PAY CHEAP BUY TWICE and 2. that a competent Toyota trained technician is as good (or better) as any specialist.  All in all, £110 (£35 at DT, £75 at Mr T) spent to cure a problem I didn't actually have in the first place - triffic!

[mrzwei]

This alignment stuff has always bothered me a bit. Had a four wheel alignment done on the Saab with a tyre change (not full four wheel, they just align the front with the back). Took it back because the steering wheel was to the right of centre when driving in a straight line. They re-did it so now it's left of centre when driving in a straight line. I've decided to live with it   s:D s:D  . So much for hi-tech laser alignment when the basic issue is to centre the steering wheel and lock it before you make any track adjustments.

[roger]

Bit difficult to read your DT print-out, but I guess if its all green, then unless there is something totally wrong with the kit, you were OK when leaving them.

Which only leaves 2 options really, something not tightened properly, or you've just been unlucky with a rather large pot-hole or speed hump. The first option should have been picked up at Toyota, so all I can think is something has happened in the short time between the two.

Mine only had a very minor adjustment, and TBH it feels no difference after to before - perfectly OK in both cases. It was only a check, I had no reason to get it done other than 3 years since the last one.

[Thudd]

You've not mentioned whether the Toyota alignment sorted it - all better now?

[Wabbitkilla]

Yes please highlight how the car feels now

[AC]

Yeah sorry I realised I missed the most important point  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Instantly felt better, steers straight, no crabbing sensation, no bump steer, not tramlining on white lines. The handling feels neutral again, as in when you're just tootling it's not trying to do something different and when you get on the gas it aiming/wanting/trying to go in the direction your pointing it.

The DT alignment was just plain old wrong, it was wrong at first and wrong after second but being the end of the day I returned home suspecting it was as much me, but it wasn't.

I don't want to go all out against DT so I'll conclude that the 2 is extremely sensitive to geometry and alignment and that a poor adjustment (or set up) will feel shocking.  Mine certainly did.

[Mike_V]

This was posted a number of years ago but I can concur with what AC said, had mine done at this years Ding Day and had all of the symptoms that AC had and when I arrived back at home the nearside rear wheel was pointing inward again causing the car to Snake under braking. Would I get it done there again, a plain old no......