How does fitting a V6 affect the handling?

[ChrisGB]

As per title, I am having difficulty finding a 2zz, so am widening the search to cover a possible V6 conversion.

So what does it do to the handling, especially on limit? Does it make the car less stable when trail braking? I really like the idea of a V6 but really not keen on the added weight. I am worried that I may turn the car into a point and shoot tool, which really would be a bad thing given my liking for B roads. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

[CJB]

The extra weight in the back will give you more extreme lift off oversteer and sudden breakaway on fast corners if you are not smooth with your inputs. You'll have to widen the rear tyres (like the 911)

[Ilogik]

If you going v6 get a 2grfz or whatever it is,  may as well do it properly.

 m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1FcnO0xXZo m
 m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPqbAgUCCA0 m

[markiii]

Chris, you nee dto sweet talk Nige into a test drive

its not even as bad as some people think with teh cast iron block, with an alloy block like the 1mz or 2gr its no big deal you would need to re fab some of your rear bracing though as it doesnlt fit

whilst teh V6 is my perfect roadster its not frenetic, and so different to teh 2zz I'm not sure its you

[loadswine]

I'm not quite sure what to say here, as whatever I come out with, there will be the haters and prophets of "doomweight" who'll just say its a pile of junk.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  
However, I'll try and help if I can, though I'm a bit biased, as I've owned one for 2 and a half years now. Firstly, its definitely MY favourite incarnation of the Roadster, but I'm aware it won't appeal to all.
My experience is also with the heavier 3VZ-FE and not the lighter 1MZ-FE that others have. ( I think mine is the only Roadster anywhere running the 3VZ.)
Install wise, there are several things that I think are key:
Decent bracing, adjustable suspension ( I think you have these ), make sure you get a gearbox with the Roadster LSD put in it ( a must for that instant pull on the corners)
A top notch and thorough geometry check and setup works wonders. I tried on track at Anglesey the first year I had it and it was a handful in the wet with no LSD and geo that turned out to be miles out.( Not to mention that at the time I was running on 5 cylinders or so)
I only spun once on that day and the conditions were appalling for a first time out on the track, let alone the fact Im not used to much wet weather running in my 2. When it let go, I really couldn't catch it, but did gather it up on the second rotation, so a better driver with a lighter 1MZ might well be fine.

On extremes in the dry, well I used it at the North Weald airfield day last year and it was successful once I got the hang of it.
High speed corner test, ( I know you've been on one of these Chris, so it may be useful reference),
was pretty surprising. In a good way.   s:D s:D  I was amazed just how fast I could ( and also Nathan who was sharing the car with me) take the corner. I got up to 76 mph ( real, not speedo) and it was tending to drift sideways. I never had the guts to go fast enough to spin it and the only limiting factor was how far over I would drift to cross the line of drain that Andy had marked out as the boundary for the test.
On the aitotests with cones, understeer was the issue, until I learnt how to turn in actually on the brakes and then the car came round and it was an absolute hoot. Not the smoothest, but very contollable and pretty quick times were possible. Hilarious fun as well.
On track at Bedford, I was entering one or two low speed corners on the brakes and it helped, but again, understeer is more pronounced than a stock Roadster. Same with the really tight bends on the mountain roads in France.
Fast sweeping bends I have absolute confidence and the car works really well and is nice and stable. One or two passengers were surprised I think.  s8) s8)  
Bottom line, if I am anywhere near where you are, you're welcome to have a go. I wouldn't want to commit unless I'd driven something at least close to what I wanted.
For my money the 1 MZ would be a good option, but it would have to be the 2 GR-FE. There is a GB going on over on TwoBrutal right now, including some good fittings, that give 300 NA horses straight out of the box!
I reckon it would topup to £8k though, but what a car.

Now the rub, and I think Mark may have hit the nail on the head here, your personal preferences. If you want that super revvy unit and that's what really floats your boat, then stick with plan A. I like mine as I don't have to rev it to have fun, but that may not work for you mate.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  
I hope that helps a bit. A few others have driven it and will be happy to tell you , privately or on open forum if they think its good or rubbish.

[aaronjb]

£4k or so for the 2GR in the GB? .. Almost tempting, if I had the facilities to put it in myself  s:( s:(

[markiii]

you have friends and a garage, what more do you need  :-) :-) :-)

[Anonymous]

you have friends and a garage, what more do you need  :-) :-) :-)

£4k   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[aaronjb]

 s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  Yeah.. need to pay for the double glazing first.. damned houses! Anyway.. sorry.. enough of the drift  s:) s:)

Chris, I reckon if you go for an ally block v6, it'll be less than (or at most equal) the weight of a turbo car.. and those certainly aren't tail happy. If you haven't driven one, you're welcome to take mine out if & when we're actually in the same place at the same time  s:) s:)

[ChrisGB]

Many thanks for the replies all.

If you going v6 get a 2grfz or whatever it is,  may as well do it properly.

That would be the most likely solution if I went V6.

Chris, you nee dto sweet talk Nige into a test drive

its not even as bad as some people think with the cast iron block, with an alloy block like the 1mz or 2gr its no big deal you would need to re fab some of your rear bracing though as it doesnlt fit

whilst the V6 is my perfect roadster its not frenetic, and so different to the 2zz I'm not sure its you

This is the thing, Plan A is still the 2zz. The problem is the appeal of all that power and the V6 soundtrack keeps distracting me. Seems like the 2GR revs out OK ish, not the manic setup I am after, but a viable alternative. 1MZ makes good noise and I have more spare cash for power mods if I go that route.

I'm not quite sure what to say here, as whatever I come out with, there will be the haters and prophets of "doomweight" who'll just say its a pile of junk.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  
However, I'll try and help if I can, though I'm a bit biased, as I've owned one for 2 and a half years now. Firstly, its definitely MY favourite incarnation of the Roadster, but I'm aware it won't appeal to all.

I am sure there are those out there that would dismiss it out of hand, but I reckon that you should never knock it 'till you try it.

My experience is also with the heavier 3VZ-FE and not the lighter 1MZ-FE that others have. ( I think mine is the only Roadster anywhere running the 3VZ.)
Install wise, there are several things that I think are key:
Decent bracing, adjustable suspension ( I think you have these ), make sure you get a gearbox with the Roadster LSD put in it ( a must for that instant pull on the corners)
A top notch and thorough geometry check and setup works wonders.

My thinking was that the 2GR would mate to a E153 box off a tubby. Not sure that the LSD would fit that, but I would need some sort of LSD with that sort of power. Bracing would need some work under the engine and a decent Geo goes without saying.

On extremes in the dry, well I used it at the North Weald airfield day last year and it was successful once I got the hang of it.
High speed corner test, ( I know you've been on one of these Chris, so it may be useful reference),
was pretty surprising. In a good way.   s:D s:D  I was amazed just how fast I could ( and also Nathan who was sharing the car with me) take the corner. I got up to 76 mph ( real, not speedo) and it was tending to drift sideways. I never had the guts to go fast enough to spin it and the only limiting factor was how far over I would drift to cross the line of drain that Andy had marked out as the boundary for the test.
On the aitotests with cones, understeer was the issue, until I learnt how to turn in actually on the brakes and then the car came round and it was an absolute hoot. Not the smoothest, but very contollable and pretty quick times were possible. Hilarious fun as well.

I found the stock MR2 to do much the same. I did manage to spin it at 70 down the high speed bend test, but it was intentional, using excessive trail braking to see just how far it could be pushed. On the cones course, I have never done a dry lap, best time so far is 1:09 on a damp course on worn Hankook RS2, reckon I would get close to 1 min in the dry with current setup. What sort of times were you getting with the V6?

Bottom line, if I am anywhere near where you are, you're welcome to have a go. I wouldn't want to commit unless I'd driven something at least close to what I wanted.
For my money the 1 MZ would be a good option, but it would have to be the 2 GR-FE. There is a GB going on over on TwoBrutal right now, including some good fittings, that give 300 NA horses straight out of the box!
I reckon it would topup to £8k though, but what a car.

I will be looking very closely at that group buy. 8K is more than I have to spend, but I may be able to work something out. 1MZ is also possible, these being cheaper and easier to get than the 2zz. However, it does not make sense in power / weight terms, so not my favourite solution.

Now the rub, and I think Mark may have hit the nail on the head here, your personal preferences. If you want that super revvy unit and that's what really floats your boat, then stick with plan A. I like mine as I don't have to rev it to have fun, but that may not work for you mate.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  
I hope that helps a bit. A few others have driven it and will be happy to tell you , privately or on open forum if they think its good or rubbish.

It helps a lot, thank you for the excellent reply. The 2zz plan A is still the one to aim for, but I am getting knobbed off trying to find an engine. 2GR is running second, 1MZ running 3rd.

:lol:   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  Yeah.. need to pay for the double glazing first.. damned houses! Anyway.. sorry.. enough of the drift  s:) s:)

Chris, I reckon if you go for an ally block v6, it'll be less than (or at most equal) the weight of a turbo car.. and those certainly aren't tail happy. If you haven't driven one, you're welcome to take mine out if & when we're actually in the same place at the same time  s:) s:)

Weight wise, the 2GR and associated gearbox add circa 85Kg to the car. It is all ahead of the rear axle and much of it low down too. My experience of taking weight out of the rear is very positive, but that was exhaust system and manifold, so all very rearward.

Money is an issue too. I cannot spunk unlimited funds on the conversion but I don't want to do it on the cheap either. Original plan was 2zz (up to £2000) PPE manifold and cat and a MWR flywheel (£1100) custom exhaust similar to current carbon setup (£250 + labour) and £1500 for the swap, so 5K give or take. 2GR will cost more than that even keeping it basic. Cheapest is possibly 1MZ which keeps it in contention.

Chris

[loadswine]

Doing it properly - well mine does pretty well really, but if I had the money, the 2GR-FE would be what I'd like. Having said that, I am really enjoying just driving mine these days. The 3VZ was the only engine sensibly available at the time mine was done, and it appears to give performance levels roughly on a par with the TTE turbo and such. ( Power delivery appears different, but end result is pretty much the same.)

Yes, you'll need an E153 tubby box , and a lot of these come with LSD.
The box and engine will weigh more than a 1MZ with the S54 box, but the weight, as you rightly point out, is where its most neutral, lower down and forward of the axle line. More importantly, the intake is plastic and this removes weight from the top of the engine bay. Gouky ( from TB ) supplies stainless freer flowing exhaust manifolds  ( English , not American lol), which replace the cast iron ones, so a pound or two there.  s:) s:)  

Money is the killer here and a likely fitted swap cost of £8k is significant, but 300 bhp is too!
A fitted, basic 1MZ will run to about £4k fitted, but if you want more power, headwork can free some horses for reasonable outlay. I would recommend a lightweight flywheel, they are nice! Throttle bodies and standalone ecu would raise power levels and rev limit, but this starts to push the old wallet a bit.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

On the cones course, and I only had about 3 attempts at it, I got down to 1:04, in the dry on a very hot day and brand spanking new Toyo T1Rs at the back. There was an Imprezza STi there which did 1:02.
I do find mine handles nicely now and I've not been left for dead by most Roadsters on the roads yet, but at the end of the day I'm not as advanced a driver as some of you chaps, and as Dirty Harry said " A man should know his limitations! "   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Good luck with whichever way you go Chris. I'm sure with your analytical and measured approach it will be an outstanding conversion.

[Ilogik]

before you get to tempted by the V6, watch this video  s:) s:)
 m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRJl17oG-ho m

[markiii]

2gr with cams and ITBs

that would be teh bollocks  :-) :-) :-)

[Ilogik]

Would also cost you around 8k wouldn't it?  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[loadswine]

Well yes, I've already said that.

I've tried to concentrate on the handling, as that was the question asked, but sound wise a 4 pot is never going to sound as good as a 6. ( Drift over)  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[ChrisGB]

Never simple is it? Even looking at 1MZ, there are variants, the one to have is the one with vvt-i. Some do not have this, so have to be careful. Budget is £5.5K maximum so 2GR would be the most basic install. 1MZ is appealing because it can be had quite cheaply and in vvti guise, will still punt the car up the road quickly.

Still favouring the 2zz, but the V6 is a contingency plan.

Chris

[Dyn-Evo]

I see a lots already been covered here, but I reckon the 1MZ without the VVTi punts you up the road a little, too....!?   s:D s:D  

All the V6 variants are different: Nige's IS, to my knowledge, the only 3VZ roadster in the UK.
Mine was the first roadgoing 1MZ: it has the stock MK2 NA gearbox with the LSD from the roadster fitted.

Later conversions have the longer 5th gear from the Avensis fitted, which makes motorway driving nicer.....   s8) s8)  

The 2GR conversions (of which none have actually yet been done, except for Patricks race cars) will be ace...but for me, 200hp / 200 torques makes for a far better Mk3 experience than the 1ZZ.

Handling-wise, TBH it feels virtually the same as stock.......no radical differences, as the engine/gearbox is not much heavier than standard. You can change the handling more by sticking a set of perfomance tyres on the rear, to be fair...?

If I was considering a conversion now, I would probably be tempted by the 2GR, but I would also then feel that brake / suspension / bracing upgrades were necessary to handle the extra power, whereas the 1MZ adds just enough without requiring these extras..?

Its up to you really: 2ZZ for the closest to stock handling with the revviness, 1MZ for a little extra torque/power with little effort, or the 2GR which takes it to the next level...

Personally though, for the cost of a Mk3 / 2GR, I would be looking at a VX220 turbo instead..........!?   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Ilogik]

Try and fit a turbo diesel in it  s:) s:)  That would be interesting.   s:D s:D

[ChrisGB]

Later conversions have the longer 5th gear from the Avensis fitted, which makes motorway driving nicer.....   s8) s8)  

I take it the standard tubby box is short geared for the 1MZ engine then? If so, this is a good thing as one of my pet dislikes about the stock roadster is silly long gearing in a sports car.

Handling-wise, TBH it feels virtually the same as stock.......no radical differences, as the engine/gearbox is not much heavier than standard. You can change the handling more by sticking a set of perfomance tyres on the rear, to be fair...?

The fact that it feels virtually the same as stock is what worries me  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   I currently have removed much weight from the rear end with a very light exhaust system and PPE manifold / decat. The difference this makes to handling is quite noticeable, especially in the twisties when it is being thrown about. As for tyres, running R888 at the moment, don't think I will find anything stickier that is road legal.

If I was considering a conversion now, I would probably be tempted by the 2GR, but I would also then feel that brake / suspension / bracing upgrades were necessary to handle the extra power, whereas the 1MZ adds just enough without requiring these extras..?

I already have suspension and bracing. One problem I can see is the Corky rear lower brace. This makes a big difference to the way the car feels and with a 2zz it stays. With the 1MZ, it would need to be completely re engineered.

Its up to you really: 2ZZ for the closest to stock handling with the revviness, 1MZ for a little extra torque/power with little effort, or the 2GR which takes it to the next level...

Next level in spending as well  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

Personally though, for the cost of a Mk3 / 2GR, I would be looking at a VX220 turbo instead..........!?   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

I have no intention of spending enough to go for a different car.

Chris

[ChrisGB]

Try and fit a turbo diesel in it  s:) s:)  That would be interesting.   s:D s:D

I am sure someone was doing that a while back? The whole reason I am not just boosting the 1zz is that I like N/A throttle response. Turbo diesels have shit throttle response at best, and who wants to listen to and smell a diesel when travelling top down?

Besides, if VAG launch their roadster, they will probably do something like that  s:? :? s:?  

Chris

[loadswine]

1MZ uses the S54 box from the Mk2 NA and does have shorter gearing than a stock UK Roadster. I had the 5th gear conversion done on mine when the box was upgraded with the LSD. If you want that instant urge in any gear, then don't go for that bit.

On my conversion, extra rear stiffness is added by the custom cross brace above the rear cross member. This will add weight though.

Overall though Chris, I really think the 2zz is definitely more what you want. I have read your responses carefully and I doubt the V6 is going to fit the bill.  I hope you find a nice 2zz unit.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

(@ Greg  I'm pretty sure mine is the only 3VZ Roadster anywhere)  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[muffdan]

or you could get the best of both worlds; torque, noise and high revving and (relatively) light weight by going for a 1LR-GUE   s:D s:D

[DannyN]

[ChrisGB]

or you could get the best of both worlds; torque, noise and high revving and (relatively) light weight by going for a 1LR-GUE   s:D s:D

May be a bit pricey. Having two GSXR motors welded together would work out cheaper.

Chris

[muffdan]

the exhaust manifolds are a work of art.

I wonder how much it does actually weigh.