How does fitting a V6 affect the handling?

[Dyn-Evo]

I have no intention of spending enough to go for a different car.

..dont worry about the weight......worry about the cost!?    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Nice lump, though!!  How much IS that, anyway?   s8) s8)

[ChrisGB]

1MZ uses the S54 box from the Mk2 NA and does have shorter gearing than a stock UK Roadster. I had the 5th gear conversion done on mine when the box was upgraded with the LSD. If you want that instant urge in any gear, then don't go for that bit.

On my conversion, extra rear stiffness is added by the custom cross brace above the rear cross member. This will add weight though.

Overall though Chris, I really think the 2zz is definitely more what you want. I have read your responses carefully and I doubt the V6 is going to fit the bill.  I hope you find a nice 2zz unit.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

(@ Greg  I'm pretty sure mine is the only 3VZ Roadster anywhere)  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

The big improvement in bracing is the Corky item that ties all the lower suspension mount points together. You would not believe what it does for the feel of the car. Would need to retain it or run something similar.

The more I read and look at V6 conversions, the more they appeal. With the short gearing they should rip through the ratios nice and quickly, so will still be frenetic on the twisties. Decisions, decisions.

Chris

[stargazer30]

Try and fit a turbo diesel in it  s:) s:)  That would be interesting.   s:D s:D

I am sure someone was doing that a while back? The whole reason I am not just boosting the 1zz is that I like N/A throttle response.

Chris

Not meaning to sound rude or anything but have you driven one of the SP turbo'd roadsters?  Mine doesn't suffer lag like an old school turbo setup at all.  It just feels like it has a big engine in it, and gets better MPG to boot.

[loadswine]

All the turbos do have lag, even the smaller turbos like the PE, which spools fastest of all the ones I've driven, including TTE.
They are very good, but not quite NA response. I had a PE  before the V6 and I think Chris would notice it and the PE spools from 1500 RPM.

[ChrisGB]

Try and fit a turbo diesel in it  s:) s:)  That would be interesting.   s:D s:D

I am sure someone was doing that a while back? The whole reason I am not just boosting the 1zz is that I like N/A throttle response.

Chris

Not meaning to sound rude or anything but have you driven one of the SP turbo'd roadsters?  Mine doesn't suffer lag like an old school turbo setup at all.  It just feels like it has a big engine in it, and gets better MPG to boot.

I have driven the TTE Turbo. As turbo installations go it felt like a good quality OEM setup and gave minimal full throttle lag, about as good as a turbo intallation can get (mind I am driving a supercharged and turbocharged Skoda at 9:00 today which may prove interesting). Where the turbo loses it for me is the part throttle response which is typically elastic. While it is perfectly acceptable for some, my favourite driving environment is the twisty B road where much of the driving involves high cornering force and blending the throttle in early in the corner. For this, nothing beats an N/A setup. I suppose supercharging the 1zz could be an alternative.

Chris

[Kool PT]

The fact that it feels virtually the same as stock is what worries me  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   I currently have removed much weight from the rear end with a very light exhaust system and PPE manifold / decat. The difference this makes to handling is quite noticeable, especially in the twisties when it is being thrown about. As for tyres, running R888 at the moment, don't think I will find anything stickier that is road legal.

I already have suspension and bracing. One problem I can see is the Corky rear lower brace. This makes a big difference to the way the car feels and with a 2zz it stays. With the 1MZ, it would need to be completely re engineered.

Chris

I'm struggling to remember if/what you did with the battery?

Olie's relocated mine to the front as part of the swap to help to balance out the weight distribution.

Rear brace wise, V6s are now getting more and more common so a custom designed part may be cost effective if you can get enough interest in a GB. However, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if PaulM has something on the go soon, his midship brace is now in production and he did mention something about getting a front  lower brace done as well.

[Paulm]

With mine being a V8 I'm expecting this to be more of an issue with myself, (it'll be minimised by getting it back to the 50/50 I like though), but
I guess the challenge is that we are all talking about are subjective issues in regard to response, transitions and turn in's etc.
I dont think we'll ever come to a point where we can accurately define the issue, without spending a whole lot of money on telemetry equipment and strain gauges.
So I think at the end of the day its all down to personal feel, preference and what can be economically done to enhance or minimise a vehicles characteristics.
Also theres plenty of people in the world who profess to know all especially on forums, woth only a few that actually do,but the best advice I could offer is to disregard the most extreme answers from both ends of the spectrum and work from there.

For braces, I'd be happy to fab-up an Aluminium rear brace for the V6 if anyone would like to pop over so I can measure and fab it up and I'll just working on a front brace, it'd be about £90 + posting, which is quite a lot in my tight ares opinion but it would be made in 6082 ali with a full X-bracing between all four mounting points, which uses nealry 6metres of Ali.

Qick question though - How does the handling differ when adding a passenger ?  about 80 - 100KG ?

The fact that it feels virtually the same as stock is what worries me  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   I currently have removed much weight from the rear end with a very light exhaust system and PPE manifold / decat. The difference this makes to handling is quite noticeable, especially in the twisties when it is being thrown about. As for tyres, running R888 at the moment, don't think I will find anything stickier that is road legal.

I already have suspension and bracing. One problem I can see is the Corky rear lower brace. This makes a big difference to the way the car feels and with a 2zz it stays. With the 1MZ, it would need to be completely re engineered.

Chris

I'm struggling to remember if/what you did with the battery?

Olie's relocated mine to the front as part of the swap to help to balance out the weight distribution.

Rear brace wise, V6s are now getting more and more common so a custom designed part may be cost effective if you can get enough interest in a GB. However, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if PaulM has something on the go soon, his midship brace is now in production and he did mention something about getting a front  lower brace done as well.

[ChrisGB]

With mine being a V8 I'm expecting this to be more of an issue with myself, (it'll be minimised by getting it back to the 50/50 I like though), but
I guess the challenge is that we are all talking about are subjective issues in regard to response, transitions and turn in's etc.
I dont think we'll ever come to a point where we can accurately define the issue, without spending a whole lot of money on telemetry equipment and strain gauges.
So I think at the end of the day its all down to personal feel, preference and what can be economically done to enhance or minimise a vehicles characteristics.
Also theres plenty of people in the world who profess to know all especially on forums, woth only a few that actually do,but the best advice I could offer is to disregard the most extreme answers from both ends of the spectrum and work from there.

This is why I wanted the subjective opinions of those who have actually had the swap and driven it. The Mr2 is around 32/68 by default, so 50/50 is going to be a big change. I would rather have rearward bias but keep the mass near to the centre of rotation for low polar inertia. Your V8 looks like an interesting project, I look forward to seeing (and hearing) it in the metal one day.

For braces, I'd be happy to fab-up an Aluminium rear brace for the V6 if anyone would like to pop over so I can measure and fab it up and I'll just working on a front brace, it'd be about £90 + posting, which is quite a lot in my tight ares opinion but it would be made in 6082 ali with a full X-bracing between all four mounting points, which uses nealry 6metres of Ali.

That rear brace is a 4 piece system that joins the mount points to the bodyshell at the rear of the fuel tank and provides better rigidity between the mount points too. It is a hugely effective piece of kit that makes the feel from the rear end more intelligible. Any replacement will need some serious consideration of the forces acting on it to maximise its effectiveness.

Qick question though - How does the handling differ when adding a passenger ?  about 80 - 100KG ?

I find turn in on right bends a little faster, the car also loads its left rear tyre earlier under power in right hand bends. It is not just about how much you add, but where you add it. Losing a lot of weight out the back by having a 4.6Kg exhaust system made a lot of difference to transient behaviour for example. Ideally any weight added is best kept near the cars centre of rotation. This of course changes depending on how sideways you are (within the confines of the slip angles of the tyres), but the MR2 has its engine in a pretty much ideal place. Having never added weight where the engine is, I am none too sure what to expect. I will drive a couple of V6 conversions before going ahead anyway. Assuming a decent 2zz does not turn up first.

Chris

[Rogue]

Mine was the first roadgoing 1MZ: it has the stock MK2 NA gearbox with the LSD from the roadster fitted.

I thought you got yours done in August 2009? The first one that I know of in the UK was completed in November 2007 (around the same time as Nige's 3VZ):

 m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS4q6cYWqtM m

The 2GR conversions (of which none have actually yet been done, except for Patricks race cars) will be ace...

All three 2GR-FE Roadsters are currently road legal, and are occasionally driven to race circuits.

or you could get the best of both worlds; torque, noise and high revving and (relatively) light weight by going for a 1LR-GUE

This is Toyota's best engine code EVER!

For me, the MR2 Roadster with a 1MZ-FE engine fitted provides a better handling experience than with the 1ZZ-FE installed. The extra weight is noticeable, but only in that the car seems more planted and less skittish.

The 2GR-FE is a different ballgame though. Installing one in a race car meant that weight increased 7% overall, with power increasing by over 100%. There is a rearward bias to the weight but it's not as great as you might perhaps think. (I have specific figures but they're confidential to the vehicle's owner). More mechanical grip is definitely needed - look what happens when the loud pedal is pressed - pay particular attention to where it leaves tyre marks:

 m http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OIAW-nlUHM&hd=1 m

Some explanation is needed:-

First race, both Anthony and I in turbos bog down on the line and Alric in his mk3 V6 gets away cleanly... and quickly! Unfortunately he selects fifth instead of third as we enter Coppice and I end up getting alongside him. (Anthony is confused about why Alric has slowed down and lifts thinking there may have been a red flag). Once he's found third gear again he takes off like I'm standing still and you should be able to see the dirty black lines that his tyres leave around the three bends that are visible on my footage. Try watching in HD if you can't make them out.

Ironically, my rear camera didn't capture anything of the first race and my forward camera didn't get the second! Anthony bogs down again but this time I make a reasonable start. Alric is missing from the grid having ripped a driveshaft CV joint apart two laps from the end of race one. I'm in front for a lap and a bit before the superiority of Anthony's car allows how to breeze past through Charlies.

[ChrisGB]

For me, the MR2 Roadster with a 1MZ-FE engine fitted provides a better handling experience than with the 1ZZ-FE installed. The extra weight is noticeable, but only in that the car seems more planted and less skittish.

Many thanks for the excellent input. Thinking back to how the 2 was before I started altering it, the one trait I never liked in the handling was the way the back end would try and lurch into oversteer if you made a harsh transition between two corners while slowing for the second of them. Bracing made a difference, coilovers with stiffer springs made a difference, but the icing on the cake was losing the exhaust system weight.

My car seldom feels skittish, but it will sort of glide across the surface evenly front to rear when grip is running out. Having more weight in the middle could well increase the grip under these conditions, I just worry a little about losing the chuckability the car has now.

The 2GR-FE is a different ballgame though. Installing one in a race car meant that weight increased 7% overall, with power increasing by over 100%. There is a rearward bias to the weight but it's not as great as you might perhaps think. (I have specific figures but they're confidential to the vehicle's owner). More mechanical grip is definitely needed - look what happens when the loud pedal is pressed - pay particular attention to where it leaves tyre marks

I think that 2GR is possible financially, but to do it properly and uprate other stuff too, I am looking at spending just a bit too much. 1MZ is appealing, maybe 3MZ if they can be had over here. I am having no luck at all trying to find a 2zz at the moment, it is getting frustrating. Love the way the car can lay black lines and stay hooked up, that is some driving.

Chris

[OlberJ]

I am having no luck at all trying to find a 2zz at the moment,

Chris

You're not alone, trying to find one in budget is slowly but surely giving way to a TB'd 3SGE for the TRC.

If the rules allowed a V6 it would be 1MZ all the way though. It really is some package!

[Ilogik]

How much are you looking to spend? I can send you contact details of a guy in the states i got some of the smaller pieces from, he was offering shipped engines but then it still leaves you in need of a gearbox.

I just put some requests in see if anything comes back to me, when I was originally looking I had 3 good ones pop up.

[ChrisGB]

Anyone know what date (if ever) the Camry changed over from 3vz-fe to 1mz-fe in the UK market?

According to Wiki, it changed in the US market in 1994 with the 3vz-fe continuing in other markets.

Chris

[loadswine]

96-97 in the UK I think. The US have a much more plentiful and cheap supply of 1MZs. A lot of other nice lumps too.

[markiii]

chris let me have your email address and i'll send you the spreadsheet i put together when thinking of going v6

[ChrisGB]

chris let me have your email address and i'll send you the spreadsheet i put together when thinking of going v6

PM sent.

[ChrisGB]

96-97 in the UK I think. The US have a much more plentiful and cheap supply of 1MZs. A lot of other nice lumps too.

The big hassle I have found looking for the 2zz is even if I find a lump, I cannot see it running. Bearing in mind the stuff I have seen and found out over the last few weeks, I am considering buying a running Camry and breaking it for the engine, sell the rest to the scrap man. At least that way I can test drive it and will know where it came from.

Chris

[ChrisGB]

How much are you looking to spend? I can send you contact details of a guy in the states i got some of the smaller pieces from, he was offering shipped engines but then it still leaves you in need of a gearbox.

I just put some requests in see if anything comes back to me, when I was originally looking I had 3 good ones pop up.

Budget is flexible, but I cannot stretch to 2GR and do it properly, so 1mz is the way forward. Contact details for the guy in the states and an idea of what he can source would be good.

Chris

[loadswine]

96-97 in the UK I think. The US have a much more plentiful and cheap supply of 1MZs. A lot of other nice lumps too.

The big hassle I have found looking for the 2zz is even if I find a lump, I cannot see it running. Bearing in mind the stuff I have seen and found out over the last few weeks, I am considering buying a running Camry and breaking it for the engine, sell the rest to the scrap man. At least that way I can test drive it and will know where it came from.

Chris

 That's what a lot of the guys over on TwoBrutal do. One of the guys on there is pretty good with headwork as well, which is the cheapest and most effective way of upping the output from the 1MZ and 3VZ.

[Ilogik]

I signed up to a breaking site to see if i could find you a 2zz lump, had nothing ocme back not even the dodgey pikeys selling rebuilds. have you thought about buying an engine from the states? with shipping it works out about the same? and they seem to be over run by them. Give Bottlefed a PM on Spyderchat he can supply everything you need so might save you a head ache.

[aaronjb]

You folks need to stop talking in this thread..


You're giving me bad ideas..  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

(Actually I'm wondering if there's a v8 small enough to fit in a crosswise orientation that doesn't cost the earth - which rules the bike-based v8's out)

[Rogue]

96-97 in the UK I think. The US have a much more plentiful and cheap supply of 1MZs. A lot of other nice lumps too.

Models equipped with the 3VZ-FE look like this:

 m http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0513022424 m

1MZ-FE versions look like this:

 m http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0450634153 m

Definitely buy a whole car rather than just an engine - that way you know you'll get all the parts from the donor that you'll need. I personally wouldn't consider a 3VZ-FE; the technology in the 1MZ-FE is more analogous to the MR2 Roadster and makes for an easier, cleaner installation.

[loadswine]

I don't think for one moment Chris is considering a 3VZ.
I don't really regard my install as "unclean", but agree it makes more sense to get the lighter more powerful engine with newer technology.
Thinking about it Chris, there's not much point in you driving mine really, it'll  give you the wrong impression. You need to look at the guys who have the 1MZ.

[Rogue]

I don't really regard my install as "unclean",

I was thinking more in terms of the deadheaded fuel system - it would be a "cleaner" installation as it would require less pipework and less modification.

[loadswine]

Fair point. My fuel system was already hacked around from a previous turbo install, ( not my doing   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  ) so the V6 tidied things up for me.  s:) s:)  
I'd love a 2GR-FE conversion one day if money ever allows.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:   The 1MZ should be a cracker though.