How does fitting a V6 affect the handling?

[ChrisGB]

Thinking about it Chris, there's not much point in you driving mine really, it'll  give you the wrong impression. You need to look at the guys who have the 1MZ.

I was working on the premise that if I like it with the iron block, I will like it with the ally one too. If I don't like the direction that the additional weight takes things, adding a little less is unlikely to appeal either.

Chris

[loadswine]

Fair enough mate, that's sound reasoning.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Paulm]

It would need to be the Audi V8 due to its shortness and I wont go any further, except so say its being worked on.

You folks need to stop talking in this thread..


You're giving me bad ideas..  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

(Actually I'm wondering if there's a v8 small enough to fit in a crosswise orientation that doesn't cost the earth - which rules the bike-based v8's out)

[ChrisGB]

I signed up to a breaking site to see if i could find you a 2zz lump, had nothing ocme back not even the dodgey pikeys selling rebuilds. have you thought about buying an engine from the states? with shipping it works out about the same? and they seem to be over run by them. Give Bottlefed a PM on Spyderchat he can supply everything you need so might save you a head ache.

I have been looking all over the place for the 2zz. I tried all the local jap spares specialists, breakers, 1st choice, trents and a few others to boot. I have only actually seen one engine in all that time, the rest where offered, but when I doorstepped them to have a look, for one reason or another, they did not have the engine or it was the wrong engine (1zz). One place did get back to me with a price for an engine gearbox and some ancillaries, but that was over £2.5K and no way of proving its origins (some non UK markets get 180 or even 170bhp versions and these guys import). The only 2zz I saw, the guy said I could have the engine, but not the alternator or starter as they were sold to someone else. When I went to see the engine the next day, the guy I had spoken to was off sick and the engine was still being stripped. The starter motor was already off, the front engine mount was still on and bent and the alternator was crushed up against the head. The breaker scene is not filling me with confidence. Importing an engine is a possibility, but if there are issues, I am in for much inconvenience.

The more I think about it, the more I am warming to the V6 anyway. Looking at the short gearing the conversion on the Mk 2 box gives, the car should be somewhat quicker than the 2zz swap. I have been checking out youtube vids, and the V6 even in a Mk2, is quicker in the critical 60-80  B road bracket than the 1zz Mk3s. Then there is the noise of course. And availability which may be the clincher.

Chris

[Ivano]

2gr with cams and ITBs

that would be the b***ocks  :-) :-) :-)

Has anyone put ITB's on Their V6's?

[loadswine]

There's a chap called Limey on TwoBrutal who is well advanced on installing ITBs on his 1MZ.  Should sound amazingly good.   s8) s8)

[OlberJ]

The more I think about it, the more I am warming to the V6 anyway. Looking at the short gearing the conversion on the Mk 2 box gives, the car should be somewhat quicker than the 2zz swap. I have been checking out youtube vids, and the V6 even in

 a Mk2, is quicker in the critical 60-80  B road bracket than the 1zz Mk3s. Then there is the noise of course. And availability which may be the clincher.

Chris

Have a blast from 80-120 and you'll be even more pleasantly surprised! (On track of course)

We went for a run on Wed night and i had a guy in an S2K behind me, fairly twisty b-road with a few good straights. He was nowhere to be seen after about a mile, the pull out of corners is nothing short of brilliant.

I don't think you're a 1/4mile hero Chris so you'll get much more benefit of the real world torque available. You just need to learn to use that torque differently from a car you rag the nuts off of and try to get the perfect revs etc into the corner. You simply set up the car, hit the apex and then away you go.

It's that corner exiting blast that makes the V6 so special for me.

That and the noise   s:mrgreen: :mrgreen: s:mrgreen:

[ChrisGB]

Having now had the pleasure of driving Nige's 3vz-fe powered car, I am in a position to know more and of course, this raises more questions.

Nige's car is an excellent drive. In normal driving, the car is smooth, relaxed and tractable. Start to push on a bit and the effect of the V6 weight makes its presence felt, mostly in a good way. Sure there is extra weight and this can be felt in off throttle direction changes, but it never feels threatening at road speeds. On the upside, the combination of traction and torque (and the glorious noise of course) make the car a real blast. It needs a considered approach, you obviously can't just chuck it at a corner any old how, but once on the gas and hooked up, it is rapid and much more stable under power than the standard car. I can imagine fast sweepers being the cars best terrain, it really is well planted.

Against this, I have to contrast it to my car. Obviously, I am more familiar with my car, so am comfortable throwing it about, but Nige's car would not be the ideal tool for my favourite sort of road (the manic B road), but then neither is a stock MR2. I am pretty sure that this is mostly a result of the much more aggressive springing and damping my car has, along with extensive rear end bracing and a lack of weight from behind the axle. My car could never do the agile GT style that Nige's car so brilliantly pulls off, it is very mobile under power, but then, it is really optimised to do the back road scratching, where comfort is a non consideration.

Of course, I want to have my cake and eat it, so the V6 is still a very alluring proposition. I am thinking firmer rear springs for my car if the V6 goes in it. Delivery wise, most B roads would just be done in 3rd and 4th, which is nice, if not quite scratching, but hey, fast is fast.

Decisions, decisions.

Chris

[loadswine]

I also had the opportunity to try Chris' car as well and now I understand the point where he's coming from.
Its a very focussed car that Chris has and the agility is superb. I was pretty conservative with it, but when Chris demo'd it a bit, wow! it really hangs on and changes direction with aplomb.
I love cars with just the right combination of mods and his was one of those, very sweet indeed and I can see the reluctance to run the risk of compromising this.
One thing I particularly liked was the exhaust, good purposeful note, but not too loud or boomy and the weight loss worked well for the car.
So a 2zz would give more of the same and a 1MZ would give something a little different, though still brilliant. I'm betting though, that if Chris does go V6, we V6 'ers could all benefit, as he has a talent for finding combinations that work well.
Good luck with the decision matey!   s8) s8)

[ChrisGB]

Further developments. I had a good drive of Rogues TRD VM180 today, a 1mz-fe powered car. I did not get the chance to throw it about, but by some considered inputs I reckon the weight increase of the 1mz-fe conversion will be manageable. I have a possibility to get some further weight reduction done in the rear end of the car and an increase in rear spring rates should help keep the two ends in phase. It wont be quite what I have now, but should be cracking and that V6 thump and noise has got me.

While a 2gr conversion is very appealing, the cost is just a bit too much for me at the moment, so 1mz-fe it is. Just waiting to see how the figures work out and if it is affordable, should progress quite quickly.

Only downside is that all the manual gearbox cars I have driven since 2005 have been six speed and the conversion is most probably going to be a 5 speed. Must get used to that  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Chris

[loadswine]

Interesting to see you have been swayed to the dark side! How did the gear ratios work for you? I think Rogue used a longer final drive. One or two others have used that too, so just wondered, as the stock S54 ratios are pretty short.

[ChrisGB]

Interesting to see you have been swayed to the dark side! How did the gear ratios work for you? I think Rogue used a longer final drive. One or two others have used that too, so just wondered, as the stock S54 ratios are pretty short.

The gearing is only slightly longer than your car, I think the rev limit may be set a little lower than yours too, 3rd running to somewhere just under 80mph for example.  The first 3 gears are energetic enough, things calm down from 4th onward but it still gets along nicely.

The top gear cruise seemed noticably shorter, sounding busy even at 60, but against that, it has instant get up and go in any gear.

The pull of the dark side is strong.

Chris

[OlberJ]

Are you going NA box Chris?

[ChrisGB]

Are you going NA box Chris?

In the absence of a useful 6 speed solution, the N/A box makes most sense.

Chris

[Ivano]

Further developments. I had a good drive of Rogues TRD VM180 today, a 1mz-fe powered car. I did not get the chance to throw it about, but by some considered inputs I reckon the weight increase of the 1mz-fe conversion will be manageable. I have a possibility to get some further weight reduction done in the rear end of the car and an increase in rear spring rates should help keep the two ends in phase. It wont be quite what I have now, but should be cracking and that V6 thump and noise has got me.

While a 2gr conversion is very appealing, the cost is just a bit too much for me at the moment, so 1mz-fe it is. Just waiting to see how the figures work out and if it is affordable, should progress quite quickly.

Only downside is that all the manual gearbox cars I have driven since 2005 have been six speed and the conversion is most probably going to be a 5 speed. Must get used to that  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Chris

Hiya Chris!
do you know what power figures rouge is putting out? I ask, cos when he did his build thread(around the same time as Nige) he mentioned he was going to use an aftermarket EMS! so should be quite strong.
The dark side IS strong....My 1MZ is almost done  s:D s:D  
cheers
Ivano

[OlberJ]

Oh and if you can stretch to it, definitely go 2GR.

Went out in Lee's yesterday and even in the Mk2 it is an amazing feeling engine.

[stargazer30]

Given that wood sports on my doorstep, how many V6 owners do we have in the north east?  I'd love to blag a ride in one see how it compares to the SP turbo I have.

[ChrisGB]

Hiya Chris!
do you know what power figures rouge is putting out? I ask, cos when he did his build thread(around the same time as Nige) he mentioned he was going to use an aftermarket EMS! so should be quite strong.
The dark side IS strong....My 1MZ is almost done  s:D s:D  
cheers
Ivano

Patrick reckoned around 200bhp, the engine is stock with a cone filter on the inlet, the stock T pipe and a TRD exhaust. Sparks and fuel are controlled by a Link ECU. Pulls really nicely, the mid range being particularly strong.

Oh and if you can stretch to it, definitely go 2GR.

Went out in Lee's yesterday and even in the Mk2 it is an amazing feeling engine.

There may be a way to get into 2gr ownership, but it is still a lot of expense and a heavy gearbox. Looking at the financial options at the moment. Bugger, scratch that, the Group Buy on the 2gr is off, so it is now well out of reach. I have a possible on a vvti 1mz though.

Given that wood sports on my doorstep, how many V6 owners do we have in the north east?  I'd love to blag a ride in one see how it compares to the SP turbo I have.

I have driven a TTE turbo and the 1mz is quite different in many ways. Part throttle response is very precise, being N/A you expect it of course. The delivery is probably not hugely different in terms of the shape of the torque curve. The other big advantage over the 4 cylinder setups is of course the noise and the NVH. A V6 is a much sweeter engine than any straight 4 in terms of feel and sound. On the other hand, with the setup you have, a 1mz powered car will not be quite as fast.

Chris