What price a turbo conversion?

[calaerial]

My 2 cents on the matter:

Personally, as a person who has just bought a '2 as their first real performance car, i dont really think that adding a turbo is a financially viable option.

The work that goes into these kits; from what people have said; is vast. And as a result their price is high. Not going to begrudge that price, if something takes a lot of work and know how to make, and doesnt have a mass market appeal, its going to be expensive.

However, even at £3500 i would have to compare it against similar routes at similar money.

For example, a used 2 is going to run you what? Say £3500 for an early model maybe, if you want a good one. Add in another £3500 for the turbo kit and yeah, it'll take you to about 200BHP and thats fine.

But its then a £7000 car.

And £7000 really does put you within spitting distance of moderately decent VX220's (Non-Turbo) and im willing to bet even without a turbo the VX will probably give the Turbo '2 a good kicking.

Doesnt seem like a wise choice to me. I'd need it down to silly money like £1500 before it would become viable, and thats just not going to happen. For very good and fair reasons.

[loadswine]

All depends on what you want really. If you consider the that the 2 is pretty easy to live with as a sports car, it makes a lot of sense, as some of the alternatives are harder to live with, especially folding roof design. If you want a track weapon, then the alternatives may work better in that area, though a 2 with around 200 horses on tap is a fairly decent piece of kit, and would be a convincing overall package. Just my opinion though.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[calaerial]

Fair point, well made

[manchestermatt1986]

And from my inner child point of view. Everyone expects certain cars to be quick, when you see a porcshe carrera you expect it to be quick what ever model, or when you see a subaru, evo ect. But when a mr2 is surprisingly quick its a shock and a hell of a good feeling for the driver.

[MattPerformance]

Some interesting points...

I'd raise some complementary points:

1) The practicality of alternative sports roadsters is hugely compromised (as mentioned)
2) The running costs of running alternatives (VX220, Elise, Boxter etc) is massive by comparison (trust me on this!)
3) Stealth is a great feature of a turbo'd '2 (as mentioned, it really is a great feature  s:) s:) )
4) 2/3 of what you spend on a turbo kit will be recovered when you remove it and sell it on (unless you keep it for loads of years and miles in which case you'll get a bit less but then you'll have had much more value out of it anyway).  So it's actually much better value than the "alternative sports roadsters" - but if you want the styling/ image and sharpness of said alternatives then you've got the wrong car in the first place.

[calaerial]

O_o

Did i write that?

[michaelasaunders]

Hi Matt,

Apologies if you have already answered these questions.

What would be the expected lifetime mileage for the turbo kit?

Once the expected lifetime has been reached for the kit, how much would it cost to refurbish it, assuming it can be refurbished?

[Anonymous]

The only part of the kit that could ever really fail would be the turbo itself, and I'd expect to get approx 100K miles from it assuming it's been looked after properly (regular oil changes, no 6bar boost spikes etc). You probably wouldn't bother refurbing a turbo of that age with seals and bearings and whatnot, you'd just buy a new turbo and slap it on.

[stargazer30]

My 2 cents on the matter:
But its then a £7000 car.

And £7000 really does put you within spitting distance of moderately decent VX220's (Non-Turbo) and Im willing to bet even without a turbo the VX will probably give the Turbo '2 a good kicking.

Doesnt seem like a wise choice to me. I'd need it down to silly money like £1500 before it would become viable, and thats just not going to happen. For very good and fair reasons.

Or you could go spend £10K on a focus ST like I did after I got rid of the Turbo 2.  Hmm now lets see....

Handling
MR2 wins

Performance
MR2 wins (assuming 200bhp or more)

Economy
OMG MR2 wins by a mile.  18mpg in the ST round the doors, I may as well just pour petrol on my drive/road and be done with it! lol

Looks
Hmmmmmm... MR2

Comfort
ST - only cause I hate rattles

Audio
ST

Did I mention I miss my MR2?  Seriously for a daily driver if you don't need a boot and rear seats £7K for a turbo'd 2 is the best money/performance/economy combo I can think of.

[MattPerformance]

Hi Matt,

Apologies if you have already answered these questions.

What would be the expected lifetime mileage for the turbo kit?

Once the expected lifetime has been reached for the kit, how much would it cost to refurbish it, assuming it can be refurbished?

Hi Michael
As Dan says, 100k is a reasonable mileage to expect from the turbo (of course there are documented cases of much more and some with a bit less but that's a realistic expectation).  The cost of refurbing the turbo only is around £400 (on an exchange basis) plus labour.  A brand new one is about £700.  A minor refurb could be as little as £250 though if you just had it overhauled with no major components needing replacing.  
Bearing in mind that we're using the same turbo as the TTE kit at the same boost levels we fully expect to see the same kind of life from the turbo in this installation.  Does anyone know of a TTE turbo unit "failure"? (I don't)
Matt

[michaelasaunders]

Thanks for that.

I can not afford one at the moment, but I am considering it for the future,

[AllanE]

Matt,

Could you provide a a curve similar to the first/top one here:
http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=976
- but with a curve that carries on at the same level from 6400rpm to close to 8000rpm, rather than tailing off?
That would give 300bhp+ without pushing much more than about 200ft.lbf through the gearbox and would take my interest away from a Rotrex...

[MattPerformance]

Hi Allan
Let me start by saying that whilst I think the guys at MWR are a good bunch, I don't have a lot of faith in their output number claims (firstly, 10psi will NOT deliver 275whp, secondly, the stock engine will NOT handle 275whp).  Nor will the stock 1zz engine rev to near 8000 rpm.  The turbo (whether in this form T25, or our Stage 2 T28) will not sustain boost at those kind of RPMs either (whereas a Rotrex could).  Without wanting to sound cynical, it's easy for a firm to make such power claims when it is someone else's job to map the car (because they don't offer a map solution).  I offer a full drive-in drive-out service with complete warranty and complete piece of mind.
My experience of the '2 indicates that the 'box is capable of handling up to 240ftlb in normal road use but of course with an electronic boost controller it is fine to limit the boost in the mid-range to cap the torque at 200ftlb if that's what you want.  That said, the electronic boost control option adds to the cost and even at that torque you'd almost certainly need an uprated clutch so you're already heading into territory well beyond the £3,600.
I guess it's just a matter of whether you're looking for something which is tried and tested and ready to go out of the box or whether you want something more custom (I'm assuming the Rotrex option you have in mind is custom?).  The custom route may ultimately give you more of what you want but it carries two risks: 1) if it doesn't work out first time (and it rearely does) it can cost a packet and 2) it'll be a bit of an unknown come resale time so may not have such a good resale price.
Hope that helps.
Matt

Matt,

Could you provide a a curve similar to the first/top one here:
http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=976
- but with a curve that carries on at the same level from 6400rpm to close to 8000rpm, rather than tailing off?
That would give 300bhp+ without pushing much more than about 200ft.lbf through the gearbox and would take my interest away from a Rotrex...

[AllanE]

Matt,

OK, so if the 'box will handle 240ft.lbf, that's even better - @ 8000rpm that's 366bhp.
Additional cost of a boost controller is not an issue, neither is resale value, or 'above £3 600'.
I already have a 4-puck clutch in me bedroom, together with the Crower st. 3 cams (I want to make power beyond 7000rpm), rods, valves, springs, fidanza flywheel, Apexi PFC etc.
Reliability is important, which is why I also have £900 worth of Toyota engine parts in me bedroom (82mm sleeved block is in the garage).
Both TTS and some guys in the states seem to have Rotrex setups reasonably sussed.
Can you give me a reliable >200ft.lbf from 4-8000rpm?

[firepower]

matt fitted my tte turbo and i have had no trouble with it at all , just 3 years of turbo induced grin every time i floor the throttle   s:D s:D  .... my car only has around 190 bhp but even that is enough to fire this little car down the road at a rate of knots . at york last year i did a 1/4 mile in 14.6s beating a seat cupra r which had 297bhp , i dont think this car needs 300 or 400 bhp.... dont stress test the engine and gearbox to their limits and have a well set up turbo fitted and you should get many trouble free miles out of it

[muffdan]

Matt certainly has experience with turbo setups on the 1ZZ. 300+bhp is nothing new for him and I thoroughly recommend him for both his off the shelf kit or for a custom setup.  s:) s:)  I wouldn't be surprised if mine is making north if 350bhp on high boost (certainly if/when I increase my rev limit). Will find out in a month or so when I finally get round to having it mapped  s:) s:)

[AmeR]

Matt certainly has experience with turbo setups on the 1ZZ. 300+bhp is nothing new for him and I thoroughly recommend him for both his off the shelf kit or for a custom setup.  s:) s:)  I wouldn't be surprised if mine is making north if 350bhp on high boost (certainly if/when I increase my rev limit). Will find out in a month or so when I finally get round to having it mapped  s:) s:)

Can I have your car???  s:) s:)

[markiii]

Since matt is being nice

I'll just say it,

I wouldn't touch mwr with your bargepole for anything they have developed in house

[loadswine]

I'm glad Mark said exactly what I'd been thinking, I wouldn't go near them.
Back to Matt's products and I think that barring specialist cars, around the 200 horse mark is a real sweet spot for the Roadster, especially when reliability of all the major components is factored in.
Custom stuff can be interesting, but also unpredictable and expensive, not to mention time and a deal of patience. The main conversions that Matt has mentioned have all been developed and are proven in a lot of cars.

[ChrisHumes]

matt

did you settle on a price for future turbo conversions?

chris

[Thudd]

And £7000 really does put you within spitting distance of moderately decent VX220's (Non-Turbo) and Im willing to bet even without a turbo the VX will probably give the Turbo '2 a good kicking.

I had a run out though the Peak district with a VX220 and a mk2 Elise through the summer, and while they were loads faster than my standard MR2, they were moaning about sudden loss of rear grip through the 13bends, and fear of crashing.
Clearly I can't comment upon whether the problem was car or driver  s;) s;)

[muffdan]

IMHO the Elise and (presumably) VX220's aren't all that when compared to a turbo'd, well planted MR2 from a performance point of view. Yes the Elise/VX handle a little better through more raw grip but its not as much of a difference as you'd think. When factoring in comfort/practicality and running costs etc the MR2, even if it worked out at the same price as an Elise, is still a contender worthy of consideration. A turbo'd MR2 is much quicker than a regular Elise/VX in a straight line and through my experience on track, a turbo'd MR2 is quicker in terms of lap times. Yes, you can modify the Elise/VX to make them better too, but that will then cost significantly more than the modified MR2 and so price comparisions aren't as fair any more.

(Prepares for   s:flame: :flame: s:flame:  )

[Peter Wright]

Yes the Elise/VX handle a little better through more raw grip but its not as much of a difference as you'd think.

Last year at Snetterton an Elise and I had a few laps together, I was much quicker than the Elise through the corners, bat alas straight line speed he lost me, now I am turbo-ed I would love to try again
Pete

[heathstimpson]

Matt having read through this I would say that price level for the kit your offering is excellent and should attract a few buyers even at the low value of the current MR2's.

[brad82]

Well I dropped my car off at matts this morning to have the low output kit installed   s:D s:D  

Now cant wait to pick it up all turbo'ed up   s:bounce: :bounce: s:bounce:  how slow will time go now   s:lol: :lol: s:lol: