help with oil and engine please????

[Anonymous]

i am a bit concerned with my car.
i had a 40.000 service at the start of march, i checked the engine oil on the way back from the treasure hunt and it was empty?
i put a litre of the top up oil given to me at my service (castrol performance 10w40) but it was still showning empty. i know the car holds 3.7 litres but what is the correct oil that should be in the car. i have done a search and everybody runs different stuff.
the funny thing is that at the service the techs reported back that there was no oil in the engine.
i have done approx 1.500 miles since my service.
any suggestions please?

[SteveJ]

Looking into my crystal ball, I would say the surface of your left-hand pre-cat has broken up, been sucked back into the cylinder closest to the flywheel, where it has scored the bore, allowing the oil to be pumped out past the rings which has then been turned into tar by the main cat which is almost certainly now toast.

<edit> Didn't I say all of this when we took your O2 sensor out at the midlands meet a few weeks back?</edit>

New engine and complete exhaust is my diagnosis - good luck convincing MrT

Either that or there is a dirty great puddle of oil on your drive.

[darrenjuggins]

That sounds a little terminal jonboy, a visit to Mr T QUICKLY would be my suggestion.

Cheers

Darren

[Anonymous]

well its a new engine for me.
appartently its a common fault which affects the toyota avensis as well.
the aluminium is to soft and the holes were the pistons go have wore away so its being replaced.
no mention of any problems with the pre cats causing it but they are gonna check them anyway.luckly i have caught it very early so i it is still ok to use, so 3 weeks and counting till it gets replaced.

[Anonymous]

Blimey... nearly fell off my chair when I read that... and there was me expecting you to have an uphill struggle to get it sorted.  Nice one!

[Anonymous]

dont count the chickens just yet.
got to get authorisation from head office but the tech seems certain that it will go through as he has agreed that it is a know fault with cars my age and registration.

[Anonymous]

what is your age/reg out of interest .. fingers crossed be nothing like mine!!

[Anonymous]

y reg 2001.warranty runs out in august.have done 43.000 miles.
have had a ticking noise on engine for about 6 months.
do not take the car to hartwells in wolverhampton as i have had numerous problems with there service.
1 example is that i was told by them that the ticking was from the timing chain which they changed and today i found out by the dealer i am taking it to to have the engine done that they changed the timing belt as it was twisted and stretched but never changed the belt tensioner which should have been changed along with the belt.
i was also told that this should have been picked up at my last service and because i had reported high oil consumption before it should have been the first thing they checked.
i am surprised at the difference of knowledge from one dealership to the next especially or the same car.

[markiii]

seems liek your getting a lot of misinfo their Jon.

Timing chain won't twist, if it had your engine would have stopped working.

The belt tensioner is parts of teh accessopry belt assembly, which is teh part that usually makes the noise. This belt may stretch but I doubt it would twist.

teh oil and teh precats are integrally related and as for teh bores erroding, personaly I think thats unlikely, it sounds liek it's their trying to explain teh situation where the oil seeps past teh piston rings. Why does thsi happen, not because teh aluminium is too soft but because as Steve explained the debris from you dead precat has in all likely hood been sucked back into teh cylinder, thus scratching teh cylinder bores and allowing the oil past.

Still the good news at least is that they are replacing it. you need to INSIST (and Idon't mean it would be nice, I mean it is essential) that they replace the Precats (manifold) and teh main cat as well. The oil will have found it's way into the main cat which will now be knackered. If they don't replace that as wel, then you'll be needing yet another new engine in a few months as teh cycle repeats itself.

Blocked cat = increased backpressure
increased backpressure = stress on engine
stress on engine = oil past teh rings and probably forced into teh intake via teh PCV
oil past teh rings = toasted pre-cats
toasted precats = disintegrating pre-cats

and on and on we go.

[Anonymous]

thanks for the helpful info mark.this is what i want originally so i could have something concrete to back me up with when i go to my local dealer.i was actually shown the report for the warranty claim and it clearly stated stretched and twisted belt.suffice to say i will not be using that dealer again.
things like this dont put faith in after sales service especially when you get conflicting views through different dealers.
i will go back and see him tommorrow as i mentioned about the cats being changed but he was rather insistant that this would not be the case and that he has not heard of the cats causing the problem.
is there anything or anywhere that i could print off a hard copy regards to you post????maybe a toyota technical bullitin or something along those lines???

[markiii]

unfortunately although certain dealer techs will admit it on the quiet teh official word from Toyota is this is not a problem.

They also struggle to take anything you get from "The Internet" seriosuly, and I suppose I can't blame them there is a lot of misinfo out there.

however with teh experiences of teh members here, and the statistically quite large number in teh US, I and others are happy in our minds that this is or very close to the REAL story.

If you mention your sources I'd refer to people from teh owners club rather than people from teh internet.

Anyway regardless of there comments on teh connections, you do have a failed pre-cat that is falling to bits, it isn't supposed to be like that, and they know it. Since it's broken under warranty it's that simple. they should replace it.end of story.

You may have more of a battle with getting the main cat replaced as there will be no visible problem. Put them on teh spot and ask what effect 4 litres (and teh rest) of oil dumped into the main cat will have. It's cheaper to do it now than replace everything when it fails again in 6 months.

Ultimately if they refuse to budge, you need to insist that they document your request, the reasons for it, and why they won't honour it on teh paperwork relating to your engine failure. Their copy and yours. Then if you do have to go back after warranty has expired you have slightly more than a fighting chance.

My manifold gets replaced soon due to a crack in the pre-cat honeycombe, and I insisted that they document this on the service paperwork.

[Anonymous]

Jon, you've a sodding great hole in your right precat... that alone is a warranty claim all by itself... get them to replace it, 'cause it's fallen apart.

Whether it caused the engine problems is not really relevant.

While you're at it, point out that the pieces of precat will have clogged the main cat, and ask them to replace that too.

While we think they're connected to the oil problems, they don't have to agree.  They simply need to look at the precat, realise it has fallen apart and replace it.

[Anonymous]

i have had the pre cats checked at the crappy dealer but not at the one where they are replacing the engine so, that is also down to be checked properly when they have the manifold off ,thanks for the point about getting it documented never thought of that.also while we are on the subject of warranty can i request to have a copy of all the warranty work undertaken since i have had the car or can the dealer refuse me access to it?

[Anonymous]

while we are on the subject of warranty can i request to have a copy of all the warranty work undertaken since i have had the car or can the dealer refuse me access to it?

The Data Protection Act 1998 allows you access to personal data stored about you: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80029--b.htm#7  (You may have to request in writing and pay a small fee).

However I'm not sure whether the info you're after could be considered to be "perosnal data".

However, I'd ask nicely, if they're a bit hesitant, mention the Data protection act, and ask nicely again.

[SteveJ]

Jon, you've a sodding great hole in your right precat... that alone is a warranty claim all by itself... get them to replace it, 'cause it's fallen apart.

Whether it caused the engine problems is not really relevant.

While you're at it, point out that the pieces of precat will have clogged the main cat, and ask them to replace that too.

While we think they're connected to the oil problems, they don't have to agree.  They simply need to look at the precat, realise it has fallen apart and replace it.

It's actually the left-hand precat that has the piece missing from it, although it is far from a big hole.

TBH, I did raise this as a problem with jonboy at the midlands meet, but I was dismissed with a shrug.

The evidence that I and a number of other club members are gathering pointed towards this failure and so far we have been totaly vindicated in what we have said.

DO NOT SETTLE FOR A REPLACEMENT SHORT ENGINE - IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE ENTIRE EXHAUST SYSTEM BE REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME, AS OTHERWISE YOU WILL JUST HAVE ANOTHER ENGINE FAILURE, BUT THIS TIME IT WILL BE OUTSIDE OF WARRANTY.

[Anonymous]

It's actually the left-hand precat that has the piece missing from it, although it is far from a big hole.

Doh, that'll be why I have L & R tatoo'd on my feet  s:) s:)

[Anonymous]

im sorry u felt that it was dismissed steve but the local dealer was specifcally requested by myself the following week to take a look at it. now if a MAIN dealer tells me that there is nothing wrong then im afraid who am i to question that!!!
that is a fault with the dealers technical know how or they just didnt bother to check (which is more likely) and not dismissive on my part.
i am grateful for everybodies help regards to this matter and all helpful comments are extremely benefical to me and are greatly appreciated  s:D s:D

[Anonymous]

it really does feel that we having a ticking bomb in the back of our 2's waiting to go off at any moment. Ive only had my 2 a little over two weeks, and i feel myself getting more and more paranoid as time goes on (especially as my 2 is a 2000 and out of warranty, and also dont have the money at the moment to replace the engine if it suddenly decides to pop its clogs)

Toyota are renowned for their reliablity, and here we have numerous posts of faulty precats destroying their engines. I have not been here long, but since i have their has been at LEAST 3 owners on here that have needed replacement engines in this short space of time - J.Blackmore, Jonboy and now i notcie Liz has a problem with her's too.
I really cant see a manufacturer as big as Toyota can have designed an engine as poorly as this. I can see a lot of people turning away from toyota because of this (including myself if mine goes the same way)

When i was looking at 2's i was aware of the fault but thought the chances of me picking up a dodgey 2 were pretty slim, but now im convinced its inevitable that the worst will happen.

*mental note, must check oil tommorrow*

[markiii]

teh engine isn't inherently flawed, it's the appliocatiion in teh roadster using teh pre-cats to get ULEV status that causes teh problems.

If your in warranty my advice would be buy an 02 tool, regularly check your pre-cats or/and have your dealer do it. Doucment teh results.

don't use magnatec oil, it gets too thin when stressed.

at teh first sign of trouble take it to your dealer.

if your out of warranty either gut your pre-cats (you won't need them to pass an MOT) or buy an aftermarket header.

From an insurance point of view the former would be more adviseable.

Guttign teh cats is easy, but if your concerned just ask I'm sure their are numerous people on here who would be glad to help you out.

[Anonymous]

i think i will go with gutting the pre-cats. Is it just the pre-cats that cause the problem or can the main cat be a cause too?

Im just worried i will have trouble when i come to sell, and the potential buyer starts asking questions.

Im waiting for this top secret header to come out, (supposed to be very good?) but dont want to spend too much money (student)

[Tem]

ULEV status

You have that in UK...?  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  I thought it's called that only in US...

[markiii]

correct Tem.

It doesn't need them in the UK at all, but Toyota left them on for all markets.

Tom, Pre-cats only are the problem. Essentially because beign so close to teh engine they get VERY hot. In theory they are designed for this , but in practice........

There is also some speculation that cylinder 1 runs hottest (possibly due to teh fuel rail design) which is why the left pre-cat is usally teh one to go first.

In terms of futire buyers I wouldn't normally hide anything but this makes no difference to anything else and since even a dealer won't notice at casual inspection, I'm not sure I would flag it. If you did it should be seen as a positive, but then how many of us woudl list all teh known faults of a car model when selling it. And I mean the ones inherent to the model not the idividual.

[Anonymous]

the tech yesterday said that even if it was out of warranty then toyota would pay 75% of the cost anyway.im just glad that mine is still covered.
once my warranty runs out i will be either changing the header or gutting the pre-cats just to be on the safe side.i must admit that i was considering selling the car but after the treasure hunt and the drive back with the roof down, it is not gonna happen.
i love the car to much and so does the missus after she drove it on sunday.

[SteveJ]

the tech yesterday said that even if it was out of warranty then toyota would pay 75% of the cost anyway.im just glad that mine is still covered.

I hate to say it but the tech is wrong about Toyota paying 75% of the repair costs - they may have done it in the past as a gesture of good-will (ie. to avoid negative publicity), but they are getting increasingly hard-nosed about threats from dissatisfied owners threating to go to the press to the point where they are calling their bluff.

Also the motoring press have more than enough disgruntled owners to contend with, and my guess is they are only using ~1-2% of the stories they receive - at the end of the day, the press want to keep the manufacturers sweet as they don't want to jeapordise their freebies to the South of France 'testing' new models.

All I'm trying to say is be careful - get everything fixed now, and don't expect Toyota to help you at all after the warranty runs out - they have no obligation to do so.

[Comer]

After reading this and seemingly more and more occasions of disintegrating pre cats, I am positively paranoid of my car experiencing the same problem in the future.

I've an O2 socket on order for my use, but I was just wondering on how you get the dealer to check the state of the pre cats once you notice a problem.  Are owners allowed to check their precats and rush to the dealer as soon as a small crack appears?  

I'm wondering whether the dealer will say that the warranty is invalidated because you have taken the O2 sensor out yourself.

I'm hoping that is not the case otherwise owners will have to wait for the symptoms before getting the dealer to investigate and by then it could be too late.