2ZZ or turbo?

[Anonymous]

which out of these would be the cheaper mod including all labour work?
 
also, if swaping for a 2ZZ, how do you go about telling the insurance? -  

Me: have swapped my enigine but its still a 1.8
Insurance: oh, no extra charge then!

[markiii]

ref insurance they'd ask havs it increased teh power, and you'd say yes.

which would be cheaper? depends on your insurance company.

which is better.? it's as much personal preference as anything.

you could argue a 2zz is more reliable as your leaving it stock, but by the time you've bought it, had it fitted, paid for a full custom exhaust, to do it properly e.t.c you won't have spent far of teh costs of Perry's turbo kit.

you pays your money you makes your choice,

for me turbo = torque, that woudl be my choice.

[Anonymous]

is the stock 1ZZ reliable enough for a turbo, meaning no parts need replacing for stronger ones.

What power figure do the turbo kits kick out? i would want at least 200bhp

[markiii]

TTE reckon that the clutch may need replacing if you go as far as 200bhp, but that your basically safe to wait and see if it blow get a beter one.

teh engine internals can cope with modest boost certainly enough to get 200bhp. after that, maybe.

[mph]

The stock clutch will *not* hold the level of torque and will fail sooner or later. Mind took probably a couple of months, including a hell of a thrashing at an airfield.

Due to a slight technical mix up, I was running at around 0.9bar for a while (@14psi) - nothing went pop happily! Have since dialled it back down to 0.5 - 0.6 bar which seems optimal on stock parts anyway. I wouldn't try and push the engine past 200bhp but IMO, if you really want more than that, you're in the wrong car.

Throwing the 2ZZ in will ultimately be more reliable, however, you will be reducing the ease of day-to-day driving as the torque moves up the rev range. To the get the most from it, the rev range is something like 6000-8000rpm. The turbo is a very lazy 3000-6000rpm.

[Tem]

Throwing the 2ZZ in will ultimately be more reliable, however, you will be reducing the ease of day-to-day driving as the torque moves up the rev range.

Actually it's pretty much the same as 1ZZ till 6000rpm...

Power/torquewise you can pretty much think of it as equal to 1ZZ up to 6000rpm. The difference is that just when the 1ZZ is about to start losing power and hit the limiter, the 2ZZ really comes alive.

I know it feels like it's missing a lot of torque from lower revs, but it doesn't. It just feels so cause of the massive upper rpm power.

[mph]

I stand corrected.   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  I have some but little experience with the 2ZZ.

It'd be interesting to see overlaid dyno plots of a 140 & 190 Celica. Anyone?

[Tem]

It'd be interesting to see overlaid dyno plots of a 140 & 190 Celica. Anyone?

I have one at home...I'll post it tonight, unless someone beats me to it.

[Anonymous]

TURBO IT  s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:

[mph]

When Adam's finally finished his 2ZZ conversion, we'll all be able to have back-to-back tests. Should be interesting!

[Anonymous]

i would be under the umbrella of changing for a 2ZZ and then go from there as it's more than starndard and i think that altho a turbo do look nice and give good torque i think the reliablity of the 2zz is unquestionable.

Also at a later date and it's still not engoth power then there's nothing stopping you with putting better pistions cranks pulleys eyc and then if thast still not enogth then turbo the 2zz
   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

The stock clutch will *not* hold the level of torque and will fail sooner or later. Mind took probably a couple of months, including a hell of a thrashing at an airfield.

Martin is 100% right here but i thought i'd throw in the fact i've been turbo'd for nearly a year and still no clutch slip. (kiss of death i know)

MAYBE and it is a maybe the JSpec version has a different clutch, or i'm just a lucky sod. I have a clutch at home on standby anyway.

[Tem]

It'd be interesting to see overlaid dyno plots of a 140 & 190 Celica.

Here's one with the US versions, so the 2ZZ-GE is the 180hp version...

[heathstimpson]

Whats the 2ZZ rev limit then  s:?: :?: s:?:

[mph]

Something in my head is telling me that those graphs don't look right, but I can't think why.   s:? :? s:?  Interestingly, all my graphs for the 1ZZ pre-turbo and even pre-unichip peek around 6600-6700.

[Anonymous]

Whats the 2ZZ rev limit then  s:?: :?: s:?:

8200

As an owner of both engines (n/a), I would recommend the turbo for it's more linear delivery (feels odd, saying that about a turbo).

The way the power comes in on the 2ZZE is not a good idea for a ME installation.  Note the ECU has been completely reporgrammed for the 111R.

And, the 2ZZE isn't that reliable.  There are 3 on Celica-Club.co.uk that have had the short engine replaced under wty.

[Jap GT300]

Limit is 8450 according to my diagnostics sheet from Jap Parts who ran the engine up when it was imported.

From the graphs ive seen of standard 1zz they look more like this

Code Select Expand

       ______
      /
    /
  /

Roughly of course.

[admin edit (mph): added code tag to preserve spacing]

[Jap GT300]

It wont let me draw it because it take out all the spaces.

[aaronjb]

Put your drawing within [ code ] [ /code ] tags Adam  s:) s:)  (Tags without the spaces, of course)

[mph]

Err, or get a mod/admin to take pity and do it for you   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[aaronjb]

Err, or get a mod/admin to take pity and do it for you   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Yeah but you can never find a nice mod when you need one..

Oh.. hello Martin, didn't see you there  s;) s;)   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  (Only kidding.. honest!)

Back to topic - didn't our Portugese member post a dyno chart recently? I'll do a quick search..

[Tem]

Like I said, those are from US Celicas...they might be different from UK/EU, but my 1ZZ dyno sure seems a lot like that one...
 m http://koti.mbnet.fi/temmeke/tmp/dyno.jpg m

2ZZ has different rev limits on different years. At least 8200 and 8400 have been used, maybe more...

[Anonymous]

i think its safe to say 2zz swap and then turbo it... you can get some mad power (if thats your thing) and it will be more reliable than turbo 1zz

  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

there is nothing wrong with 2zzge reliabilty, just the fact that some people might mis-shift our 6speed and drop from 3rd into 2nd at 8,100 rpm might be slightly damaging to your 2zzge... and that might happen if you are not careful and if your transmission didnt loosen up a bit or you got used to it more... thats also an reason +02 models of our 6speed got stricter gates and are harder to shift smoothly

[Tem]

i think its safe to say 2zz swap and then turbo it... you can get some mad power (if thats your thing) and it will be more reliable than turbo 1zz

Why would a turbo 2ZZ be more reliable than turbo 1ZZ (at same power level)...?

Also, don't know how much mad power really is, but here's one example of my idea of mad power from 1ZZ:
 m http://www.spyderchat.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=11742 m

Note that the dyno shows rwhp...and even if the hp number really doesn't seem that huge, think again. Let's take a 3500lbs Skyline, with 600hp and (estimated) 30% drivetrain loss. That's 120 whp/1000lbs.

Then take a 282 whp Spyder with 2200lbs and you have ~130whp/1000lbs. Suddenly the sub 300hp MR2 sounds pretty good, huh?  s;) s;)

[Anonymous]

because - according to people who build turbos for both 1zz and 2zz - 2zz is much slicker design and tougher engine, and you could have same whp with 2zz while running at smaller psi, which would make it loads more reliable... 2zz-ge kits with t3/t4 do around 250whp at 8 psi, with no mods to the engine at all, no IC,  with no issues - except that the 6speed tranny likes to blow up if mis-handled

have no doubts though - my choice will be TTE turbo, nice and reliable, not too much power either... but 2zzge turbo is good stuff...