Handling problem, intermitent veering!

Started by dcod, June 2, 2011, 14:29

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Dyn-Evo

#25
June 3, 2011, 12:15 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "markiii"misunderstood tyre effects?

really?

some peoples stupidity knows no bounds if they think mismatched tyres aren't a problem

Mismatched ON THE SAME AXLE.....obviously THAT is a no-no......  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  


but different makes front/rear..THATS not gonna kill anyone anytime soon...as long as they're matched side to side.
Sure it will affect the handling...but it wont be dangerous as long as you get used to the difference BEFORE trying to be Seb Vettel on a public road....

THEN you may find that elusive ditch......!!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Current: 2006 Toyota Corolla T-Sport COMPRESSOR 215hp, Silver, totally stock!
EX]V6[/color]  \":-)\"   )
Black Leather interior, "micro-lip" rear spoiler, Refurbed OEM 15" Pewter Metallics, Cobra Quad-Exit, HEL SS braided hoses, EBC pads, AEM DryFlow CAI.
Ex: "NightHawk" MR2 Mk1 4AG-ZE AE101 S/C conversion (170hp), water injection
Ex: MR2 Mk1b stock 4AGE

dcod

#26
June 3, 2011, 12:33 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "markiii"he said post facelift have vsc which uses the abs pump, sounds like BA to me?

Hmmm, think I'm going to research on how to findout whether I have BA or not. I can't really go by UK specs because my car was imported from Holland.

I agree with you, BA seems the most logical conclusion.

Dyn-Evo, I wouldn't put anything past Toyota anymore ...
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

filcee

#27
June 3, 2011, 12:42 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
I thought brake assist was the technology designed to interpret how hard you were pressing the brake pedal in order to determine the need for an emergency stop.  If the inputs appear to indicate an emergency stop is required, then the ECU will apply the brakes fully in order to bring the car to a stop as quickly as possible.  As far as I know, this technology was introduced because modern braking systems are so well assisted, most drivers don't need to press the pedal hard to pull up in normal driving conditions, they are therefore conditioned to not have to press the pedal hard ever, and therefore rarely apply sufficient pressure to effect a good emergency stop, thus warranting the introduction of more electronics to 'aid' the driver.

I don't think this is fitted to my facelift.  The braking is too progressive for BA to be interfering with what I want to do.

And on the other hand, everyone I know who has ever had this fitted on a car has pretty much hated it.  Apparently, it is very difficult to control when and by how much BA will interfere, it is therefore pretty much impossible to judge braking distances accurately.

Going back to the OPs original problem: worn tyres will cause the '2 to tramline (esp. Bridgestones).  This can be felt at low speed if there is sufficient disturbance in the road surface for the front wheels to start following something.  The best course of action is to address the tyre situation, put the standard ('book') pressures in and work it out from there.
Phil
2003 6-sp SMT in Sable
x-2001 5-sp SMT in Lagoon Blue

Jaik

#28
June 3, 2011, 12:45 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
If you've got ramps or another easy way to get under the car, I'd check for play or signs of wear in any of the suspension arms. I'd imagine a knackered ball joint or bush could cause this kind of issue?

Tyres or brakes do sound like the most likely culprit though.

dcod

#29
June 3, 2011, 12:50 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Hi filcee,

I am certain, in my mind, that the issue isn't tyres. However, I will be changing them very soon   s:) :) s:)  

If BA has such an effect that people hate it then I would say that I don't have it. My brakes have always done exactly what I wanted and never surprised. Thanks for the info though.   s:) :) s:)  

Hi jaik,

Good point but I had my wheel allignment done 2 weeks ago and watched the guy pull away at my suspension. He told me everything was cool.
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

Dyn-Evo

#30
June 3, 2011, 12:53 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Of course having 20-30mm of stagger front to rear is only going to make the overall tramlining effect worse, whatever speed we go at....

Doesn't matter how worn the tyres are: if you drive along 2 ruts in a motorway lane there will be points where either the front or rear tyres are on the edge of one or other of the ruts..this will cause one end of the car to pull.

Not a very nice effect....

You'll only really notice it at speed on a dual-carriageway / motorway, though, to the point where it'll feel dangerous.
Add to this the buffeting of gusty side-winds and the instability some suffer at 70+, and you may feel your car is trying to kill you.....!

..and thats WITH the correct front/rear stagger....  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:
Current: 2006 Toyota Corolla T-Sport COMPRESSOR 215hp, Silver, totally stock!
EX]V6[/color]  \":-)\"   )
Black Leather interior, "micro-lip" rear spoiler, Refurbed OEM 15" Pewter Metallics, Cobra Quad-Exit, HEL SS braided hoses, EBC pads, AEM DryFlow CAI.
Ex: "NightHawk" MR2 Mk1 4AG-ZE AE101 S/C conversion (170hp), water injection
Ex: MR2 Mk1b stock 4AGE

Jaik

#31
June 3, 2011, 13:19 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "dcod"Good point but I had my wheel allignment done 2 weeks ago and watched the guy pull away at my suspension. He told me everything was cool.
Did the problem start before or after the alignment? If after, perhaps something has worked itself loose since being adjusted.

dcod

#32
June 3, 2011, 13:32 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "Jaik"Did the problem start before or after the alignment? If after, perhaps something has worked itself loose since being adjusted.

Started about a week after. I've already booked my car in at my local garage for Tuesday to check the whole suspension out.

Does anyone hear/feel a scraping noise just after starting and pulling away? I believe it's something to do with the braking system taking on air. Is this BA? My car has done this from new, 10 years ago. Has been doing it a fair bit more recently.
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

filcee

#33
June 3, 2011, 16:50 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Brake Assist: p169 of the owners manual specifically mentions brake assist for vehicles fitted with VSC - which is the post-facelift SMTs (i.e. mine).  I can't say I've ever noticed the effect I described above.  Maybe this was another aspect of a sports car that Toyota got right.
Phil
2003 6-sp SMT in Sable
x-2001 5-sp SMT in Lagoon Blue

Anonymous

#34
June 3, 2011, 16:57 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
you have said yourself the tyres are low so rule them out and change them, hell you got to do it anyway. also mine does yours it because it is tramlining my tyres are low and it even will turn some corners for me it trams so well. now this is not because of a ba or traction system as i know for fact that it dont bloody well have it. and at the end of the day if it not your tyres which you ruled out because you changed them it will be a ball joint etc as it throughs out the alinement. either way its not a sodding ba

rant over

markiii

#35
June 3, 2011, 17:41 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "dcod"
Quote from: "markiii"he said post facelift have vsc which uses the abs pump, sounds like BA to me?

Hmmm, think I'm going to research on how to findout whether I have BA or not. I can't really go by UK specs because my car was imported from Holland.

I agree with you, BA seems the most logical conclusion.

Dyn-Evo, I wouldn't put anything past Toyota anymore ...

you can, as mechanically EU cars are identical
Gallardo Spyder<br />Ex Midnight Blue 911 T4S<br />EX VXR220<br />Ex Custom Turbo 2001 Sahara Sun MR2 Roadster 269bp, 240lbft<br /><br />MR2ROC Committee 2002 - 2009<br /><br />

cclarke99

#36
June 4, 2011, 23:35 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Tramlining is a well known problem with well worn Bridgestones, and I'd agree with all those above who suggest getting some new tyres. I woudn't look for any other cause until you've changed them.

mrzwei

#37
June 5, 2011, 18:42 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
It's all been said really and some good stuff.

The golden rule for any form of problem solving is to only change one variable at a time so that it can be eliminated from the equation.
You have identified a problem variable. If you alter something else and the problem is still there then you still don't know whether or not the tyres are the cause of the problem. (Although you will know that what you changed isn't).
Ex.MR2 SMT sadly missed.
Saab 9-5 Turbo, Hirsch stage 1, Sports suspension and anti roll bars, uprated disks, sports intake and filter and various other bits. 210bhp, 320Nm.
Talbot Express campervan with carb, distributor, coil and no cat! SOLD

dcod

#38
June 10, 2011, 08:49 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Update:

I cancelled the garage check for last Tuesday, I decided to change the tyres first (as logically suggested earlier).

Car has not shown the problems I was getting since last Thursday.  I hate intermittent problems!   s:x :x s:x  (car does bounce around, tramline and feel like its made of jelly though)

Should be getting a full set of Toyo T1Rs today.   s:D :D s:D

Then?

a) Car feels great; play the waiting game ...
b) Car still feels wrong or scary problem comes back; get car checked at garage ...

Thanks for all your replies.
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

ChrisGB

#39
June 13, 2011, 11:52 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "dcod"Good point but I had my wheel allignment done 2 weeks ago and watched the guy pull away at my suspension. He told me everything was cool.

First and most obvious question, did the problem start after the alignment?

If so, is the alignment correct?

Was it a proper 4 wheel alignment correcting toe and thrust angle so front and rear track match?

If the rear alignment was adjusted, are the lock nuts on the rear toe adjusters fully tightened?

I had a problem after some work was done recently and it turned out to be a rear control arm mount bolt only done up to around 15lb/ft. You could pull on it and no free play was evident, but when driving, it was all over the place.

The RE040 do tramline really badly when worn, it is just a function of camber wear, stiff side walls and geometry as far as I can tell. The softer sidewall tyres seem not to have so much of a problem with it, but I am running R888 and they are similar to the RE040 in this respect. With the RE040 the tramlining can be at very low speed.

Hope your tyre change fixes it, let us know how it goes.

PS, remember to take it easy on new T1R as they are greasy for the first 500 miles or more.

Chris
Ex 2GR-FE roadster. Sold it. Idiot.  Now Jaguar XE-S 380. Officially over by the bins.

dcod

#40
June 13, 2011, 13:05 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "ChrisGB"I had a problem after some work was done recently and it turned out to be a rear control arm mount bolt only done up to around 15lb/ft. You could pull on it and no free play was evident, but when driving, it was all over the place.

The RE040 do tramline really badly when worn, it is just a function of camber wear, stiff side walls and geometry as far as I can tell. The softer sidewall tyres seem not to have so much of a problem with it, but I am running R888 and they are similar to the RE040 in this respect. With the RE040 the tramlining can be at very low speed.

Hope your tyre change fixes it, let us know how it goes.

PS, remember to take it easy on new T1R as they are greasy for the first 500 miles or more.

Chris

So far the car has felt great. I forgot how new tyres can breathe fresh life into a car.   s:D :D s:D  

Unfortunately, the problem I had seemed to stop 4 days before I had the tyres fitted so I don't 100% know whether the problem has been fixed.

New tyres has fixed the following though:
1. Sliding around on bumps even in the dry   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  
2. General tramlining.
3. Bone shaking ride.
4. Cornering feel.

Current problems:
1. Tyres don't feel too sure in the wet (probably need wearing in as you said).
2. Car vibrates above 70 (balancing weights fell off or were falling off! Half fixed by kwikfit on Sunday but will get all wheels done again very soon)

What have I learnt? Just because you have plenty of tread on your tyres, don't think they are ok! If they are over 4 years old and don't get used much, change them!
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

markiii

#41
June 13, 2011, 13:07 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
what pressures are you running?
Gallardo Spyder<br />Ex Midnight Blue 911 T4S<br />EX VXR220<br />Ex Custom Turbo 2001 Sahara Sun MR2 Roadster 269bp, 240lbft<br /><br />MR2ROC Committee 2002 - 2009<br /><br />

dcod

#42
June 13, 2011, 13:31 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "markiii"what pressures are you running?

26 front, 32 rear. They feel fine but any suggestions are welcome   s:) :) s:)
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

Anonymous

#43
June 13, 2011, 13:40 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
i would say they low as i believe the toyo tyres should be run 5 psi higher to normal. for me i would probably run 30 front 35 rear but its all depends on mods and tyres and finding the right balance

ChrisGB

#44
June 13, 2011, 13:46 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Need to know specific sizes to give a definitive answer on pressures as some sizes are xl rated, some not.

Chris
Ex 2GR-FE roadster. Sold it. Idiot.  Now Jaguar XE-S 380. Officially over by the bins.

dcod

#45
June 13, 2011, 13:53 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Standard OEM wheels 185/55/15 and 205/50/15. Mods? Flaky paint and bubbles   s:D :D s:D
Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses"

I bought a "Lean Mean Fat Reducing Grilling Machine" to lose weight. I put on five stone. I blame the delicious gravy it makes.

sh4branze

#46
June 13, 2011, 14:28 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
I had a similar problem with mine.I had Toyo T1Rs and only replaced the rears because the 2 year old front tires still had half the tread left.It drove terrible and an alignment made no difference.Replacing all 4 tires at the same time works best.

ChrisGB

#47
June 13, 2011, 18:28 Last Edit: January 1, 1970, 01:00 by Guest
Quote from: "dcod"Standard OEM wheels 185/55/15 and 205/50/15. Mods? Flaky paint and bubbles   s:D :D s:D

Looking across the load index tables, I would say you are pretty much spot on with stock pressures.

Chris
Ex 2GR-FE roadster. Sold it. Idiot.  Now Jaguar XE-S 380. Officially over by the bins.
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