Inefficient brakes

Anonymous · May 27, 2003, 18:36

Hi all
I have never been really happy with the standard pads. I have said to my dealer that the only time they are good enough on gentle braking is when I have just washed the wheels or it is raining/damp atmosphere. (All dealers know that even the Yaris brakes are very sharp and warn customers if they haven't driven one before.) Has anyone had a similar problem? Is the only cure to change them to TRD or similar?

s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · May 27, 2003, 18:46

I've always thought that the brakes where ok not poor but ok,

On the old forum there was a thread about brakes and some people said the same so your not alone.

I would recomend getting hold of a compnay like EBC or Black diamond and getting them to make you a set of cross drilled and groved dics. These should make the brakes feel like "just wasjed the car". They cool the brakes down and clear all the carbon depostist away so the next time the pads come into conact it's only metal and not carbon balls.

Also a upgrade of pads could be use-full TRD are highly recomended but i have heard that EBC are bringing out a set for the spyder but worht giving them a call. Be prepared for the price to be around £160 for a set of 2 discs and £120 for pads. Could replace all 4 and get a deal. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · May 27, 2003, 19:45

If you're feeling that the stock brakes are not good enough, then either i) there is something wrong with your brakes, or ii) your expectations are WAY too high.

The Roadster brakes are widely recognised as being amongst the best there is. My own personal trackday evidence, trackday passenger comments (including an ARDS instructor), and media reviews, all support this. I seem to recall (but don't quote me on this) that the Roadster will do 0-60-0 in only 3 metres more than a Boxster S, widely recognised as having the best brakes in the business.

Upgrading pads or discs is unlikely to make any significant performance improvement, at least not under normal (ie non-track) driving. Traction (or lack of) between tarmac and rubber will always be the limiting factor, long before friction between pad and disc.

If you're driving really hard, eg on track, then overheating can be a problem. Most likely is that you'll boil your brake fluid, leading to vapour in the brake lines, and a "spongy" pedal; cured by replacing fluid regularly, preferably with a high-temperature spec one (a whole seperate topic!). Drilled/grooved discs can help cooling, at the expense of contact area (ie friction), and high-temperature pads can last longer before fade.

The only remaining brake upgrade could be braided hoses, which would improve pedal-feel, but again, only really likely in extremes, where your stock rubber hoses are "stretching".

No doubt Martin will be along shortly to share his experience with TRD pads, and spyderchat also has many who've tried several types of pads (with little reported difference).

Anonymous · May 27, 2003, 19:45

I found the brakes on the yaris i was driving very sharp and the brakes on my '2 are SOOOOOO good!

IMHO i would stay away from the grooved discs... i had drilled/grooved black diamond discs on my old car and while they stop the car like nothing else, they eat up pads BIG TIME!!! I mean i was changing pads every few months, and these were EBC pads, so not cheap!

If you dont like the pads, i have always heard that Mintex (think that is spelt right) are some of the best you can get.

Hope that helps.

mph · May 27, 2003, 21:50

'Sharp', or peddle pressure isn't a good indicator of brake effectiveness - what it illustrates is how much brake assistance is present. The Yaris, given it's, umm, target market, aren't interested in peddle feel or travel so a little goes a long way. Us on the other hand want to be able to carefully modulate the braking, which inheritantly requires us to use greater peddle force & distance to yield the same end result as the Yaris, but allows us to finely control the pressure in between.

As Phil says, the Roadster has truely exceptional brakes, even in stock configuration. If you're not happy something is wrong somewhere, be it mechanical with the car or the driver expectation!

Unless you're on track, you won't be stressing your brakes to the point of over heating them, unless you're dragging them of course. Even then, the first thing to go is the Toyota's weakest stock component, the DOT 3 brake fluid. A flush and replace with something like Motul 600 (note: DOT 4 not 5.1) will solve that problem though.

As for Pads, I've tried the TRD street pads. I have to admit, they are better for road use, but will shred under track conditions. Pagid R4S or R4 is often recommended in the USA. Also on the 'good' list is a set of Mintex 1155. Personally, I wouldn't touch EBC Greenstuff, for a start they don't do rear pads, so you'll be left with disparate front/rear material - not a good idea.

I really wouldn't touch the discs or calipers, they're more than adequate for our weight & contact surface.

Lastly, braided hoses may help a little, but again, don't really come into their own until you've got fairly warm fluid inside them.

markiii · May 27, 2003, 22:05

Quote from: "Buster"I've always thought that the brakes where ok not poor but ok,

On the old forum there was a thread about brakes and some people said the same so your not alone.

I would recomend getting hold of a compnay like EBC or Black diamond and getting them to make you a set of cross drilled and groved dics. These should make the brakes feel like "just wasjed the car". They cool the brakes down and clear all the carbon depostist away so the next time the pads come into conact it's only metal and not carbon balls.

Also a upgrade of pads could be use-full TRD are highly recomended but i have heard that EBC are bringing out a set for the spyder but worht giving them a call. Be prepared for the price to be around £160 for a set of 2 discs and £120 for pads. Could replace all 4 and get a deal. s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Sorry to disagree again matey, but grooved and slotted discs were appropriate in days gone by, but these days with the non-asbetsos pad material they acheive nothing other than shreding your pads, and weakening the discs. Slotted/drilled rotors once nice and warm tend not to like rapidly cooling down from puddles and the like. They sell these days mostly to the max muppet customer to who looks are far more important.

Anonymous · May 27, 2003, 22:20

Quote from: "mph"As for Pads, I've tried the TRD street pads. I have to admit, they are better for road use, but will shred under track conditions. Pagid R4S or R4 is often recommended in the USA. Also on the 'good' list is a set of Mintex 1155.

Porterfield make the R4 (a real track pad) and R4S (a semi-track pad) not Pagid. I'm not sure of the Pagid part numbers, but I think they fall into a similar category as EBC's.

mph · May 27, 2003, 22:36

Quote from: "pmdye"
Quote from: "mph"Porterfield make the R4 (a real track pad) and R4S (a semi-track pad) not Pagid. I'm not sure of the Pagid part numbers, but I think they fall into a similar category as EBC's.

Oops. Brain fade. I don't have part number for the Pagids either - maybe this should be telling us something?!

Last time I was checking the prices of things a couple of months ago:

Porterfield pads:
R4S AP822 £80.46
R4S AP309 £49.35
+ VAT + delivery

Mintex:
MDB2029
MDB1325
price circa £300+VAT for a set of 1155s. Discounts for five or more sets.

Peter Laborne · May 28, 2003, 10:35

Quote from: "pmdye"If you're feeling that the stock brakes are not good enough, then either i) there is something wrong with your brakes, or ii) your expectations are WAY too high.

The Roadster brakes are widely recognised as being amongst the best there is.

Too true. Excluding the rust the brakes are exceptional. The Roadsters 60-0 distance is only 3 yards further than the Elise.

The only slight problem is that I find the 2 suffers slightly more than anticipated from brake fade, but this is easy to overcome.

Peter

Anonymous · May 28, 2003, 10:59

I am astonished that ANYONE would want to change the discs and pads on what is already a superb set up. The feel is good, the modulation is good, the lack of fade on a good old fashioned coutry jaunt is good and the overall stopping power is second to none! I would recommend that the people who want to change the system should have their cars checked over for faults cos the brakes on a 2 are pretty fine and dandy already. As in previous posts I have written, the only other car I found to have had better brakes has been an Elise. And that surely has to say something.....

Anonymous · May 28, 2003, 14:43

Hi guys,
Thanks for all the feed-back. Phil and Martin have reminded me when they mentioned brake fluid that I have heard a high-pitched whining noise coming from the reservoir. It stops when the engine is switched off, even with the ignition switched on. Can everyone have a listen to their car and let me know if they detect the same sound.
Bearing in mind my post on ""Customer Service" at MrT" if there is a problem I can't see me getting anywhere with a post-warrany claim!!!!

s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · May 28, 2003, 15:13

Martin (mph)
I didn't say that her indoors's first Yaris was a 1litre top-of-the-range CDX,which I changed for the "pocket rocket" T Sport at the end of January
105 bhp instead of 69. Even moving the cars on the drive I think that the Yaris brake assistance is much better and have told MrT.

s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · May 28, 2003, 22:33

QuoteBuster wrote:
I've always thought that the brakes where ok not poor but ok,

On the old forum there was a thread about brakes and some people said the same so your not alone.

I would recomend getting hold of a compnay like EBC or Black diamond and getting them to make you a set of cross drilled and groved dics. These should make the brakes feel like "just wasjed the car". They cool the brakes down and clear all the carbon depostist away so the next time the pads come into conact it's only metal and not carbon balls.

Also a upgrade of pads could be use-full TRD are highly recomended but i have heard that EBC are bringing out a set for the spyder but worht giving them a call. Be prepared for the price to be around £160 for a set of 2 discs and £120 for pads. Could replace all 4 and get a deal.

Sorry to disagree again matey, but grooved and slotted discs were appropriate in days gone by, but these days with the non-asbetsos pad material they acheive nothing other than shreding your pads, and weakening the discs. Slotted/drilled rotors once nice and warm tend not to like rapidly cooling down from puddles and the like. They sell these days mostly to the max muppet customer to who looks are far more important.

Markii we always seam to disagree LOl well it makes for good chat tho s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

I have driven a 2 that has had the brakes "upgraded" by a compnay called TDI, i seam to mention these people a lot because i think there gods when it comes to the setting up of the 2.

Anyway It has same size disc's but grooved and cross drilled, with TRD pads and up graded brake fuild and hose's. It also had a set of P1's on front and rear brand new. And i must say that it stoped around 15-20% quicker than a standard 2.

I would say that on the most that the disc upgrade is manly for cosmetic reason (apart if you do lots of track days) and the pads do ware quicker with groved disc's like lkris said but over all it seam a much better set up and provided to me that there is much room for improvement on the 2's brake set up. Not in comparrison with other stock cars but if your after a high performance brake set up. Personaly i wouldnt only maybe upgarde hose's and fiuld and when the pads came for a change then i would maybe go for the TRD's.

But it has been done and he difference is noticalbal, but everyobe to there own i supose s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 14:34

I've been reading this post and by the sounds of it the brakes on my MR2 should be s*hit-hot.

I bought the car recently and it's only done 20,000 which I don't consider a huge number of miles.

The car brakes ok but it's nothing spectacular. My girlfriends 1.2 base model Clio has outstanding brakes compared to my MR2.

I know the Clio is built for town driving and there for the brakes are going to be good from cold but I've only experienced good braking on the MR2 when I've had to push hard on the brake pedal.

Is this the character of the MR2's brakes or should I expect it to be better? What I really need is another MR2 owner to come and drive my motor. Any offers from anyone in the Bristol region?

Cheers,

Mike

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 14:40

I find my brakes are superb... im driving a Yaris at the moment and the brakes on that are sharp and stop suddenly, but not as good as on the '2 which stop you quickly at high speeds too. I think the brakes on my MR2 are great.

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 14:41

I don't live too close to Bristol (I'm in Oxford), but what it seems you're describing is the Clio having "positive brakes", that is to say, you only have to press the brake pedal a small amount to add a lot of brake pressure.

Unforunately this isn't really a good measure of how good the brakes are. The only real way of telling how effective the brakes are is seeing how far it travels while braking fully from a set speed.

My old car had very positive brakes, but at the end of the day, if you had to stop in a hurry, it wasn't all that good at all.

The two is very different. The brakes don't feel too positive, you have to press them much further to get any braking action, but if you do press it all the way to the floor, it stops a lots lot quicker than my old car.

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 14:43

well said phil4 - thats what i was trying to say but did a bad job of it! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 14:51

I have always been pleased with the brakes on the 2 and this was borne out on Thursday evening when a slow moving truck pulled out without warning to overtake his even slower mate just as I was about to complete a safe overtaking behind a Volvo

The Volvo was in all sorts of problems - almost crossing into oncoming traffic whilst the 2 stopped quickly in a straight line and well short of trouble

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 14:55

But a volvo is built like a tank. It doesn't need good brakes.

My last problem was stopping too quickly, stopped with plenty to spare from the car in front, but the car behind didn't stop quickly enough and had to swerve.

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 15:20

Phil4,

This would explain why the Clio feels sharp with very little pressure on the pedal and my MR2 brakes feel more progressive. At least I'm safe in the knowledge that when called upon my MR2 will stop quicker than 99% of other cars on the road.

Thanks

Mike.

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 15:24

Don't take my word for it. Try them out. Find a nice bit of empty straight road, make sure there's no one behind and nail the brake pedal to the floor. Rinse and repeat with the Clio.

This should get you used to what the ABS feels like too (which may well save you pulling your foot off the pedal when it kicks in!).

Hope4Sun · June 30, 2003, 16:10

Quote from: "pmdye"The Roadster brakes are widely recognised as being amongst the best there is. My own personal trackday evidence, trackday passenger comments (including an ARDS instructor), and media reviews, all support this. I seem to recall (but don't quote me on this) that the Roadster will do 0-60-0 in only 3 metres more than a Boxster S, widely recognised as having the best brakes in the business.

I read the same thing somewhere to, think it was autoexpress, etc, but i think i'd swap my S's brakes for the Roadsters any day, bl**dy thing just never seems to want to stop s:shock: :shock: s:shock: (ya have to be so heavy footed on em really s;)

s;) , the Roadsters seemed much sharper)

On a serious note though, i found i was not braking hard enough in the Roadster and ate through my discs pretty quick s:oops: :oops: s:oops: , though they replaced them under warranty s:)

s:) , once i started breaking later and a little harder, it made a huge difference, failing this maybe there's a fault, i'd get them checked just to be safe s:)

s:)

Andy

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 16:11

Phil4 wrote:

QuoteBut a volvo is built like a tank. It doesn't need good brakes

Errr......don't you kinda think that is the point? Cos it IS built like a tank, it should have BETTER brakes cos something like that, which is so bulky and heavy, regardless wither it will protect you in a crash or not (they are no longer the safest cars on the road), then you need good stopping brakes to stop the weight and bulk.

As for the '2 brakes, they are tremendous. My girlfriend ALSO drives a Clio 1.4, which I drive on a reasonably regular basis and I can tell you that the Clio's brakes are nowhere NEAR as good as the '2s. Yeah, they take less pedal pressure to initialise the braking, but the actual stopping power is no more than "adequate" where the '2s are astounding, born out of me recently nearly driving straight out into a juntion that I didn't know that was there (it was immediately round a bend and I didn't know the road) and I had to hit the brakes HARD to stop me ploughing into the traffic and I know for a fact that if I was in the Clio (or my old Mk1 for that matter, which also had bloody good brakes), then I would have been done for. As I didn't know the power of the brakes, I stopped actually about 7-8 yds AWAY from the junction. Very, VERY impressed.

The Clio's brakes just scare me they are just so sharp. But the stopping power just doesn't translate........

Anonymous · June 30, 2003, 16:14

Bizarre. Can't really think why braking gently would cause increased brake wear. The last two cars I had managed to never need any brake changes and managed 75000 and 63000 miles respectively.

zud · June 30, 2003, 16:21

One of my pet hates at the moment is the number of kn*bheads on the road that seem to think they can out-brake an MR2 just because they can see over the top of it. I guess most times I need to brake they'll see the cause at the same time I do... but sooner or later someone will pull out in front of me and I'll be swapping details with the kn*bhead behind!!!