Nervous at high speeds

[danrem]

Hi everyone, I am a new owner of a prefacelift dark ble MR2 roadster with only 44k miles on the clock and it is in great condition except for one issue which I have. At high speeds lets say 70mph + the car seems to be very nervous when you turn in. It feels like the rear isn't in sync with the front and it feels nervous. I am used to mainly driving front wheel drive front engined hatchbacks and occasionally my brother's caterham and I am wondering whether it is a trait of the car or just my paranoia. I have checked the tyre pressures and corrected them to 26psi front to 32psi rears and it has improved matters a little but there is still an underlying feeling that the car is twitchier than a speed addict. It feels a little like when you have a worn ball-joint or worn suspension mounts or bushes but at low speeds it seems fine. Turns in well and gives good steering feel (would prefer less assistance but lets not be too fussy). I have tried changing my drip at the wheel and loosening my grip on the wheel which helped a touch. I am thinking about checking the wheel alignment/geometry. Any ideas? Has anyone else suffered the same issues before?

[roger]

Hi Dan and welcome.

You've checked pressures, but are tyres to spec (all same make, good tread, right sizes)? Certainly after that a geometry check would be useful.

You may well find a bit tricky on motorways or the like if it tries to "follow" HGV indentations, but after that things will start to cost.

[uktotty]

Hi Dan
Agree with everything Roger says, also look into additonal bracing, front, rear and underneath if you want to stiffen everything up

[markiii]

does it have the plastic spat in front of the front and rear wheel?

how about the big one underneath the nose?

[danrem]

Hi Dan and welcome.

You've checked pressures, but are tyres to spec (all same make, good tread, right sizes)? Certainly after that a geometry check would be useful.

You may well find a bit tricky on motorways or the like if it tries to "follow" HGV indentations, but after that things will start to cost.

Thanks for the welcome. The motorway in question seemed fairly smooth and I don't think it was a tramlining issue although the camber due to the crowning was quite steep as I was on the fast lane. Funny you should mention tyres. They are all the correct size but the fronts are Firestone Firehawk 700 (not a bad sporty tyre) whilst the rears are Goodyear NCT5's (more of a touring tyre). The NCT5s are an ok tyre for a Ford Focus but not one that I would choose for the MR2. However they are all fairly new and I would be surprised if they are the cause of the issue. Am I wrong? Seriously I was not doing trackday speeds. Just motorway sorts of speeds.

[danrem]

does it have the plastic spat in front of the front and rear wheel?

how about the big one underneath the nose?

Sorry I don't know what you mean by plastic spat. Are you asking about the plastic linings inside the wheel arches and are you asking whether it may have been crash repaired? Patience with us newbies...   s:D s:D

[MisterK]

I would suggest your problem could well be the tyres - not all the same make all round is considered a no no.  Plus you mention that the fronts are a 'sporty' tyre whilst the rears are a 'touring' type.  The two don't mix.  I bet that others will probably agree that if you fit a set of the same make all round e.g.toyo's with the correct stagger, then it could make all the difference.
MarkK

[Stephster]

I too switched from hatchback, front drive, front engined to the MR2. I have Yokohamas all round, and geometry is fine, but the driving feel is completely different at high speeds. I couldn't believe how twitchy she felt on the motorway compared to my Pug. The twitchiness now that I am used to it, is now increased responsiveness !
Having the same brand of decent tyre all the way round would certainly make a difference though. I know the usual advice is just to not mix brands across an axle, but the 2 it is important that they are all the same, especially as in this car the back would occasionaly like to overtake the front !

[Ilogik]

As weird as it sounds, my car used to feel like this, it could vary hugely depentant on stretch of road. It felt like the car was going lighter and felt like it was wondering. Eventually i fitted a rear spoiler and it made the car feel very planted and fine to drive.  If the steering feels like your front tyre pressure is too high.

[VVT-i]

Check list.

1. Tyre pressures
2. Tyre sizes and same make/model all round.
3. Full global geometric check (don't confuse this with wheel alignent, a geometry check will check and 16(ish) different angles, adjust as required.
4. Suspension components, check for worn ball joints and bushes etc.. extra bracing can help too.


The plastic spat mentioned earlier refers to the little plastic tabs the sit infront of all 4 wheels, look like very small mud flaps, these divert the air around the tyre instad of forcing it under/through it, if these are missing it could make the front end light at high speed.

If everything checks out to be as it should and you still find it too twitchy, consider fitting lowering springs, TTE and Tien are both good quality options, lowering will improove the handling and won't let as much air under the car, after I switched to 17" wheels I had a similar problem... lowering fixed it.

Good luck with it.

[danrem]

I too switched from hatchback, front drive, front engined to the MR2. I have Yokohamas all round, and geometry is fine, but the driving feel is completely different at high speeds. I couldn't believe how twitchy she felt on the motorway compared to my Pug. The twitchiness now that I am used to it, is now increased responsiveness !
Having the same brand of decent tyre all the way round would certainly make a difference though. I know the usual advice is just to not mix brands across an axle, but the 2 it is important that they are all the same, especially as in this car the back would occasionaly like to overtake the front !

I have come from a  Pug 306GTi-6 with Koni sports all round and that can occasionally tramline but because it is a front wheel  driver with the engine weight over the front wheels it feels quite nicely planted even when it is being tugged and gragged by the cambers and grooves in the road. The MR2 though is naturally light at the front as the engine is in the middle so you would expect some lightness in the steering compared to the 306 which is fine. It was just the "twitchiness" that occasionally catches me out. It hasn't actually moved off line but as you turn in off camber it feels like the weight transfers rearwards wanting to throw the back out. If there even a dusting of snow it would have swapped ends for sure! In the ice I had a slow speed tank slapper that I just managed to hold onto. Classic turn into the round about, front end ploughs on, I came off the gas (bad idea) and the tail swung out pretty damn quickly, slight over correction of opposite lock and caught it the 2nd time round. Phew! Always used to catch the 306 1st time round so I will definitely have to learn about mid engined handling.

Damn shame about the tyres as the NCT5s are brand new and are actually good tyres but not for the MR2 and I can't really afford to get 2 Firestones especially as I would probably choose Toyos or similar over them. At the same time I can't afford to die...   s:scared: :scared: s:scared:

[danrem]

Check list.

1. Tyre pressures
2. Tyre sizes and same make/model all round.
3. Full global geometric check (don't confuse this with wheel alignent, a geometry check will check and 16(ish) different angles, adjust as required.
4. Suspension components, check for worn ball joints and bushes etc.. extra bracing can help too.


The plastic spat mentioned earlier refers to the little plastic tabs the sit infront of all 4 wheels, look like very small mud flaps, these divert the air around the tyre instad of forcing it under/through it, if these are missing it could make the front end light at high speed.

If everything checks out to be as it should and you still find it too twitchy, consider fitting lowering springs, TTE and Tien are both good quality options, lowering will improove the handling and won't let as much air under the car, after I switched to 17" wheels I had a similar problem... lowering fixed it.

Good luck with it.

Thanks for the check list. For point 3. above, Is the MR2's toe, tracking and castor adjustable at the front as well as at the back? For point 4, it feels like the bushes and ball joints are tight at low speeds and there are no knocking or clonking sounds coming from the steering. It is just the high speed changes in direction that are making me sweat! Maybe I'd better get some new tyres and just stump up the cash. My life is worth more than £120 or whatever it will cost me. I will be checking the spats tomorrow when there is some light. Hopefully it will be obvious what you are referring to. My wife would divorce me if I lowered it.

[stargazer30]

The regulars are missing one obvious check here.  Make sure it has the spare wheel in the frunk.  Unlikely, but if thats missing it would cause the front to be floaty at speed.

[danrem]

Sorry to reraise this issue but I found a 4 wheel geometry readout that may explain my handling woes. It shows that the right hand side rear wheel has a camber of -2.31degrees (ie cambered out) compared to -1.16 on the left. Would that cause a handling issue at high speeds? I was gaining some confidence the other day at lower speeds and it was feeling ok if not perfect. Its at high speeds that the car doesn't feel right. Its a strange one because everything feels new, it damps well, steering is consistently light ( a little too light for my liking but not bad), but at high speeds especially when you are giving it some beans, the car feels unbalanced. A little like it is out of phase and porpoising.

I know a lot of you will say tyres and I agree that the tyre difference front and rear are not perfect but it is more that just this. When I get a chance I will be doing a new 4 wheel geometry but would like to get some feedback from those in the know. Does anyone have the propoer camber, castor and toe figures for a pre-facelift roadster with 185/55 15's with 6" wide wheels at the front and 6.5 width 205/50VR15's at the rear?

Finally does anyone know someone that can help me with 4 wheel geometry near Woking-Guildford in Surrey and how adjustable is camber, toe and caster in the front and the rear?

Thanks in advance

[Anonymous]

Mattperformance, just by the NEC has all the numbers, plus the geometry equipment. Not too far from you. Send him a PM. Very good guy to know.

[Anonymous]

Let me get this straight so you want advice,people tell you it is really important to have same make tyres all round you ignore this as it will cost you money to do this and want other options? Start with the basics first,change the tyres!   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Anonymous]

Cost of new rubber, £260ish. Cost of alignment check, £45ish. If youre going to fit tyres, alignment will need doing anyway. Id go for alignment first, myself.

[Ilogik]

Those geo settings sound  sfuck fuck sfuck ed  there should me a small percentage of difference between each side. Never heard one one positive the other negative. If you imagine it one wheel will push in the other out lol. Making it super twitchy. Go somewhere else. You usually have green and re on alignment readout. What colour are all te boxes? Can you scan it?

[Anonymous]

Sorry to reraise this issue but I found a 4 wheel geometry readout that may explain my handling woes.

Looking at this again, the whole point of a 4 wheel geo check is to adjust the angles to achieve factory settings (assuming youre not going to the track).
Why would the geo be left outside spec? I can only think of two reasons.
1. There is suspension damage which means the adjustment cannot be made to bring the angles back to spec.
2. The camber bolts are siezed into the crossmember and cant be adjusted.

[PeteT]

I have been to these guys before when i had a mk2 and they are brilliant. They are not cheap but they were the only people to solve my mk2 issues that no one could fix up here.

[SteveJ]

2. The camber bolts are siezed into the crossmember and cant be adjusted.

The cross-member bolts adjust toe, not camber. Camber is only adjustable on the rear using crash-bolts (undersize bolts that allow movement between the strut and the hub until they are tightened). Whiteline also do some adjustable camber bolts that have cams on them.

[Wabbitkilla]

I've had experience of this with a local "specialist", they tried adjusting my camber arms ... couldn't and just hid the results the best they could while charging me for the honour of being their customer.

Sounds like you need some proper investigation of your suspension and some crash bolts to adjust the camber.

[FGrob]

Camber is only adjustable on the rear using crash-bolts (undersize bolts that allow movement between the strut and the hub until they are tightened). Whiteline also do some adjustable camber bolts that have cams on them.

Actually Steve that is not correct, you can adjust the camber by using either Megan or Che adjustable lower camber arms, a lot easier to use and less stress.

I still can't see where the setting go from + to - according to Ilogik - are you looking at a different thread?  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Yes agree on the tyre front, get them all the same then start with your settings, sounds like the back could have seen a bit of action with those setting, might be worth checking for damage.

Rob.

[Anonymous]

The cross-member bolts adjust toe, not camber.

Sorry, I was confused by the fact they are called bolt, camber adjust. (48190-32010)

[danrem]

Let me get this straight so you want advice,people tell you it is really important to have same make tyres all round you ignore this as it will cost you money to do this and want other options? Start with the basics first,change the tyres!   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

I have taken notice of what people have said about tyres and I am sure it is a factor. However, you haven't felt the way the car handles and it is not just the tyres. I have had enough experience of driving to know that this is not purely a tyre issue. To find an old 4 wheel geometry report and see that one of the readings is out gives me some indication that this must be a contributing factor. To slap on some tyres and see how it goes and have them wear strangely due to an off camber wheel/suspension setting doesn't make sense to me.