Nervous at high speeds

Anonymous · February 21, 2012, 13:21

I had a similar problem repairing a car recently. When trying to set up the geometry we just couldnt get it within tollerance. It was only then that we noticed that the cast iron knuckle was bent.
Once that was changed it was perfect.

SteveJ · February 21, 2012, 13:41

Quote from: "FGrob"
Quote from: "SteveJ"Camber is only adjustable on the rear using crash-bolts (undersize bolts that allow movement between the strut and the hub until they are tightened). Whiteline also do some adjustable camber bolts that have cams on them.
Actually Steve that is not correct, you can adjust the camber by using either Megan or Che adjustable lower camber arms, a lot easier to use and less stress.

I was going to edit the post as I knew some smart-arse would say that but I stand by what I posted - the standard car is only adjustable using crash bolts (or other 3rd-party upgrades).

FGrob · February 21, 2012, 13:48

Quote from: "danrem"
Quote from: "life of bryan"Let me get this straight so you want advice,people tell you it is really important to have same make tyres all round you ignore this as it will cost you money to do this and want other options? Start with the basics first,change the tyres! s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

I have taken notice of what people have said about tyres and I am sure it is a factor. However, you haven't felt the way the car handles and it is not just the tyres. I have had enough experience of driving to know that this is not purely a tyre issue. To find an old 4 wheel geometry report and see that one of the readings is out gives me some indication that this must be a contributing factor. To slap on some tyres and see how it goes and have them wear strangely due to an off camber wheel/suspension setting doesn't make sense to me.

It's not just about slapping tyres on but removing a known problem in the first place, once you've done that you can start on the alignment, nobody is saying drive the car around. Did you ever check the front for the small plastic deflectors which was mentioned earlier, they should look like this:

It's surprising how much difference things like these make.

SteveJ · February 21, 2012, 13:54

Totally agree with Rob on the deflectors - Markiii's car was missing those so we did back-to-back comparisons with and without them when he bought a set. The difference was like night & day at higher speeds.

FGrob · February 21, 2012, 13:55

Quote from: "SteveJ"
Quote from: "FGrob"
Quote from: "SteveJ"Camber is only adjustable on the rear using crash-bolts (undersize bolts that allow movement between the strut and the hub until they are tightened). Whiteline also do some adjustable camber bolts that have cams on them.
Actually Steve that is not correct, you can adjust the camber by using either Megan or Che adjustable lower camber arms, a lot easier to use and less stress.

I was going to edit the post as I knew some great person would say that but I stand by what I posted - the standard car is only adjustable using crash bolts and adjustable arms.

Just corrected that for you Steve. s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

Ilogik · February 21, 2012, 13:57

QuoteActually Steve that is not correct, you can adjust the camber by using either Megan or Che adjustable lower camber arms, a lot easier to use and less stress.

I still can't see where the setting go from + to - according to Ilogik - are you looking at a different thread? s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

.

shows that the right hand side rear wheel has a camber of -2.31degrees (ie cambered out) compared to -1.16 on the left

I have some camber adjustment bolts for sale, think they are for the front though s:P

s:P Can't remember s:lol: :lol: s:lol: They are toyota ones.

SteveJ · February 21, 2012, 14:01

Quote from: "Ilogik"
QuoteActually Steve that is not correct, you can adjust the camber by using either Megan or Che adjustable lower camber arms, a lot easier to use and less stress.

I still can't see where the setting go from + to - according to Ilogik - are you looking at a different thread? s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

.
shows that the right hand side rear wheel has a camber of -2.31degrees (ie cambered out) compared to -1.16 on the left

I have some camber adjustment bolts for sale, think they are for the front though s:P s:P Can't remember s:lol: :lol: s:lol: They are toyota ones.

What are you wittering on about? They are both -ve so the top of the tyre is leaning in towards the car which is what it should do. The fact that one is leaning more than it should could be a sign of a damaged strut. Damage to arms almost always causes +ve (or too little -ve) camber .

danrem · February 21, 2012, 14:35

Quote from: "PeteT"I have been to these guys before when i had a mk2 and they are brilliant. They are not cheap but they were the only people to solve my mk2 issues that no one could fix up here.

Spoke to the geometry/suspension specialist at blackboots and gave him the settings shown on the results of the report. He then said that this was significantly enough out to cause handling problems and then described what he imagined the car would feel like. It was a fairly accurate description of my car's handling. He then advised me to get some Eibach adjustable bolts which when fitted will allow the camber to be changed. I could then go up there and ask his to 4 wheel geometry test the car and the readings indicate that this is still the issue then I could have this fitted and adjusted. Once the settings are correct I can then change the tyres, if it still feels off-balance. Does this sound like a plan?

To answer the others on deflectors, the car has these intact both left and right. Talking about aerodynamics, the wind does seem to affect the car more than it should.... then again it probably would do if your suspension settings were off...

markiii · February 21, 2012, 14:56

you won't need anything but stock components to get an alignment that will feel safe and predictable unless something is bent

so find teh problem first don't band aid it

if you choose to run settings that are out of spec (and you can make it handle better this way) then yes those bolts are one solution.

Personally I hate camber bolts, megan arms are a much better solution

danrem · February 21, 2012, 15:44

Quote from: "markiii"you won't need anything but stock components to get an alignment that will feel safe and predictable unless something is bent

so find the problem first don't band aid it

if you choose to run settings that are out of spec (and you can make it handle better this way) then yes those bolts are one solution.

Personally I hate camber bolts, megan arms are a much better solution

Do you know of anyone that could diagnose problems in the Surrey area? I looked up megan arms and they look pricey. I am afraid that I am a total pleb when it comes to cars suspension settings. Can you tell me what is wrong with using Eibach adjustable shim bolts and what benefits the megan arm will have over these. Will the adjustable camber bolts not be bringing the settings to the correct setting or are you worried that there may be other issues behind all of this? Someone above mentioned that there could be strut problems... although I must say that the car seems to handle bumps well when going in a straight line. With my super simplistic understanding of car suspension and settings, my suspicion is that someone has slapped a curb or hit a huge pothole and bent the suspension a little causing the camber to be out.

Dan

markiii · February 21, 2012, 15:51

if you need anything non standard to get standard spec then something is wrong, camber bolts will let you get it in spec but they cammed onces a a pain to fit, and the smaller ones will slip with time.

I'd be looking at finding the cause of the problem, assuming there even is one. it might be able to be aligned without any trouble, so far you don't seem to have had the actual settings checked, just some vague historic stuff,

Surrey I can't help with but I'd heartily reccomend PSR Automotive in Bishops Stortford or if you really want a suspension guru Chris Watkins at Centre Gravity in the midlands

loadswine · February 21, 2012, 16:01

You could try Matt at AFR Tuning in Crawley, but I doubt if it will be cheap. He set my V6 up superbly, but it still took a couple of hours for that as I had a full geo setup.

Wabbitkilla · February 21, 2012, 16:03

Getting the car to a proper full geometry and alignment place is a good start to get their advice, get someone who will communicate with you rather than take your car away to a dark room and come back asking for money.

The car may already have crash bolts fitted and are just badly adjusted.
In my experience crash bolts will be happier to maintain than Megan (or TopSpeed Pro) arms, they may not have the firm control of the pillow ball joints in the Megans but in the real world they're absolutely fine. TopSpeed Pro actually have the arms made and then Megan Racing buy them and put their own stickers on.

alfajerry · February 21, 2012, 16:20

Quote from: "danrem"
Quote from: "PeteT"I have been to these guys before when i had a mk2 and they are brilliant. They are not cheap but they were the only people to solve my mk2 issues that no one could fix up here.

Spoke to the geometry/suspension specialist at blackboots and gave him the settings shown on the results of the report.

Wheels In Motion are very highly thought of on the MX-5 forums.
They are part of Blackboots now, I believe.

danrem · February 21, 2012, 16:43

Quote from: "Wabbitkilla"Getting the car to a proper full geometry and alignment place is a good start to get their advice, get someone who will communicate with you rather than take your car away to a dark room and come back asking for money.

The car may already have crash bolts fitted and are just badly adjusted.
In my experience crash bolts will be happier to maintain than Megan (or TopSpeed Pro) arms, they may not have the firm control of the pillow ball joints in the Megans but in the real world they're absolutely fine. TopSpeed Pro actually have the arms made and then Megan Racing buy them and put their own stickers on.

Good advice. I will do that first and I have bought the Eibach adjustable shim bolts just in case they are required at £20 delivered it isn't too wasteful. I would hate to turn up get the readings and then not be able to complete the job because I didn't have the bits. I might try the Blackboots place as that is not 1000 miles away and he sounded like he knew his stuff. Also with recommendation from PeteT an experienced MR2 member.

danrem · February 21, 2012, 16:44

Quote from: "loadswine"You could try Matt at AFR Tuning in Crawley, but I doubt if it will be cheap. He set my V6 up superbly, but it still took a couple of hours for that as I had a full geo setup.

How much an hour did they charge?

markiii · February 21, 2012, 16:49

anything less than £150 for a full 4 wheel alignment and you will be doing well

danrem · February 21, 2012, 16:50

Quote from: "markiii"if you need anything non standard to get standard spec then something is wrong, camber bolts will let you get it in spec but they cammed onces a a pain to fit, and the smaller ones will slip with time.

I'd be looking at finding the cause of the problem, assuming there even is one. it might be able to be aligned without any trouble, so far you don't seem to have had the actual settings checked, just some vague historic stuff,

Surrey I can't help with but I'd heartily reccomend PSR Automotive in Bishops Stortford or if you really want a suspension guru Chris Watkins at Centre Gravity in the midlands

You are right about not having actual settings. I am making a lot of assumptions. As mentioned, I will be getting some actual settings from Blackboots and see how that goes. Bloody hell I just want to enjoy this car and it feels like it would be really fun IF the settings were fine.... assuming that is the problem. At low speeds it feels better but not perfect. Usually for example with my brother's Caterham, you get acclimatised and it gives you the confidence to have a play. This hasn't given me that feeling at all.

Thanks for your advise and I will keep you posted.

danrem · February 21, 2012, 16:51

Quote from: "markiii"anything less than £150 for a full 4 wheel alignment and you will be doing well

s:scared: :scared: s:scared: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

Wabbitkilla · February 21, 2012, 16:54

Good thinking, having the bolts ready to hand makes sense s;-) ;-) s;-) ;-);-);-);-);-);-):grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:;-)

loadswine · February 21, 2012, 18:36

Quote from: "danrem"
Quote from: "markiii"anything less than £150 for a full 4 wheel alignment and you will be doing well
s:scared: :scared: s:scared: s:cry: :cry: s:cry:

I think it cost me getting on for 200, but well worth it in my case, as so many bits had been off the car with my conversion and everything was dialled in well.
I think you do get what you pay for sometimes, just like Mark says.

Anonymous · February 21, 2012, 19:07

A couple of those and you could buy the equipment!

danrem · February 21, 2012, 19:38

Quote from: "dick2ski"A couple of those and you could buy the equipment!

Guys I need a more cheerful note here! Isn't there a member who likes to fix MR2s for free/for cost out of the love of humankind? i knew I shouldhave got a Mundano TDCi but my Caterham owning brother convinced me that I needed a mid-life crisis mobile.

markiii · February 21, 2012, 20:02

trust me you won't know how good a sportscar can be until its aligned properly

£150 to someone who really knows what they are doing is well worth it. The toyota specs you could drive a bus through and still "Technically" be in spec

FGrob · February 21, 2012, 20:07

Quote from: "danrem"
Quote from: "dick2ski"A couple of those and you could buy the equipment!

Guys I need a more cheerful note here! Isn't there a member who likes to fix MR2s for free/for cost out of the love of humankind? i knew I shouldhave got a Mundano TDCi but my Caterham owning brother convinced me that I needed a mid-life crisis mobile.

Why don't you come up to the Ding day at Demon Tweeks, the only downside is the timing, it's in May. last year it was about £56 or so for a check and set, I've never paid more than £65 even when I changed over to the Megan chromed arms and full Monoflex coilovers, that was at DT's and I did buy the coilovers from them.