Trusting was my error

[Wabbitkilla]

Here is a summary of my recent experiences in geometry land, this has been going on for some months now since my clutch went bang.

I've drawn up a demonstration of the repeated errors

This has really been a learning experience for me, not just about who can be trusted, but also how suspension geometry works in relation to the adjustments that can be made.

Rule 1: Don't let anyone f-ck about with the length of your adjustable arms if you have them.
Rule 2: If they have to adjust camber get them to use crash bolts / the slotted bolt mounts on the struts to adjust the kingpin angle of the hubs.
Rule 3: Educate yourself about the adjustments that can be and are made to your suspension, be aware of what is the "best" setup for your car and your driving.
Rule 4: If a garage takes days to replace your clutch, it's because they're up to no good and trying to cover something up ... like damaging your CV boots.
Rule 5: If you're getting work done to your car at a garage where you're not going to be around to watch them, take some measurements of basics like track before you drop the car off.
Rule 6: Take it to Charlesworth if it's something you can't handle at home or don't have the opportunity to abuse Ste's good nature   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  


So summing up.
My clutch went splat.
I got a replacement clutch delivered from Charlesworth, the special order LUK item.
I towed the car to Ian Cranston in Skipton who have done good work for me in the past, to replace the clutch.
I don't use the car every day so we are in the habit of me leaving it with Ian and his crew for a few days ... but never over weekends.
When I got the car back all seemed fine, but it was noted that the nsr camber was extreme -ve.
So after a recommendation advice as to a reliable local GEO station took the car to TFSmiths in Crosshills and waited onsite. They took over £100 off me and took 4 hours. The camber hadn't been changed even though the paperwork said it had .. do you trust your eyes? I do now!!
Further recommendation sought and I took the car to Nigel Langs in Bolton, on appearance the perception is good, efficient, and friendly. "He" found the Megan Camber bars adjusters were seized so he adjusted toe in and track, I went home to order new camber bars from Che. Approx £100 spent.
He also identified that the inner nsr cv boot has been damaged and an attempted repair made by whoever did it, this can only be Ian Cranstons .. and they were suspicious in their aversion to give the car back until a weekend had passed. No doubt allowing their "glue" to set. New Che camber bars and cv boot fitted at Spitstop, cost £160 altogether.
Back to Nigel Langs with new camber bars fitted and he adjusted camber to what he thinks is right, -0.5 degrees all-round. I couldn't remember what Demon Tweeks set them to so couldn't comment. £90 spend.
Upon driving in anger I found the front end light and the rear end very unstable, assuming the tyres nearly worn out on the back they were due to be replaced, I replaced them and it all went worse. Discussing with Ste we discovered the common ideal setup for the roadster is -1.5 degrees of camber on every corner.
Still believing there's a problem with the car, we investigate a knock that has appeared since this all started, it turns out to be a Megan trailing arm pillow ball that has become corroded and has a "step" in the surface... replaced, knock has gone but the handling issue is still there. We also discover the engine mount between gearbox and firewall has excessive play ... kirks mount fitted to fix. Rear track between wheels measured and compared to multiple other cars ... the rear has been adjusted by Langs to narrower than the front!!!   s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  Measurement shows my car is 20mm narrower at the rear than the average roadster (rim to rim)  s:evil: :evil: s:evil:  
Back to Nigel Langs and insist that camber is set to -1.5 degrees. Big argument really and very annoying that after 5 years driving and working on the car my opinion means nothing to him. Under duress he adjusts rear camber of -1.5 degrees both sides (allegedly), £90 spend.
Handling issues are still there, it's dangerous and I'm ready to set light to the car.
Inspecting the GEO results back at base it's discovered that front camber is still not correct, -0.5 degrees osf and -1.0 dgrees nsf. We "Ghetto" adjust the front camber at Spitstop - result is front stability is restored. We still have the rear issue though and I'm still hating driving what I consider a dangerous handling car.
Suspected spring / shock on nsr ... replaced both springs at £60 cost - no change to handling problem, but the suspension feels better sprung on the rear now.
Then we notice the nsr wheel is pulled into the arch further than the osr, and indeed the track of the nsr wheel is still narrower than the nsf wheel. Camber of the wheel has also changed since I changed the springs, it appears 0.0 degrees or even verging on +ve camber.
Car abandoned for the planned holiday in Scotland with MR2OC ... I really miss the MR2 on and MR2 trip and the whole point is we're in MR2's.  s:cry: :cry: s:cry:   Saving grace is the Audi astonishes many with its ability ... and I have a giggle anyway. Freinds are really important and all are famously good company.  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

Back home, I decide to measure the suspension linkages as I suspect nsr arms are shorter than osr, mirroring them I estimate that the rear track will be corrected, the camber will likely approch normal, and the wheel will sit in the arch properly again.
Visit to Spitstop and we find the nsr camber arm and toe arm are 10mm shorter than osr, and there's a 3mm difference in the nsr trailing arm (feasible since we had to replace it). All adjusters are now well lubricated   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   so I adjust the nsr arms to match the osr arms. It turns out there is some adjustment in the kingpin angle of the hub-strut bolts on the BC coilovers, so it's best to concentrate on them in future and leave the arms alone.

Result = nsr "looks about right", camber appears to be in the right region, the wheel sits in the arch more consistent with normal for the car and handling is vastly improved ... if not perfect! But far better than the GEO-Adventure began. Then the alternator started whining like a biatch.

This weekend
Replaced alternator, I got one from a 2005 35k breaker to go in, working all hunky-dory now and th previous reconditioned unit has definite dry bearing / broke bearing.

I have a camber measure tool now to get our adjustments more accurate, it needs a little modification to suit 15" - 17" wheels but it will be a great help whenever we're playing with suspension in future.
I've replaced belt, vvti ocv filter and washer while I had the alternator out.

I was going to get geo accurately adjusted at Ding Day, but when I was underneath dealing with the engine mount so we could remove the alternator  spotted my rear subframe has a hole corroded in it, obviously it's come from inside the beam and exploded outwards, so I now need to source a replacement beam ... bugger, yet more time spent fixing this car.

And now a picture;
[/quote]

You can see that each visit to Langs has been expensive and completely wasted, it seems the machine / professional cannot understand the importance of track width relation front to back.

As a result I've had to bin places i used to recommend;
Ian Cranstons : took £240 off me to fit the clutch, damaged the nsr inner cv boot and tried to cover it up, their method of clutch change also resulted in a massive change to suspension geometry which I never managed to achieve even when I swapped out the gearbox previously.
TFSmiths Crosshills : took £100 off me for a botched Geometry setup and didn't mention anything about seized adjusters or damaged cv boot. To be fair another friend had said they do shoddy work, but I also had a recommendation. Mind the person who first recommended them has now been let down by their Geo man too.
Nigel Langs : I've spent in the region of £400 here, and I can only state that what I've experienced is professional well intended incompetence. Never again!!!

I've not added the price of the Clutch as that's the only thing that was good in this saga, and clutches do wear and do break ... mind it was an Exedy Organic which should have lasted longer imho! The replacement LUK feels far superior in every aspect.

[StuC]

Well done for hanging in there. I am sure the car has nearly been set on fire several times.

Glad to read that your Geometry is as it should be now.  :-) :-) :-)

Sorry to hear about the hole in your subframe!
Now you understand about all the adjustments, when you do swap the frame out, it least you will know where you are starting from and how to fix it.  :-) :-) :-)

[dan_daran]

thx for the informative and valuable post , -
-when i had my clutch/flywheel  installed the car felt a little different in terms of handling but it would not have occured to me to check the geometry

[FGrob]

Hi Nic

Sounds a complete nightmare, one thing I will never do is leave my car with anyone, when I go to Tweeks to have a geo check I will strip everything back myself, plastics etc and even have my own spanner that they have to use to adjust the Megans - if needed. I will give Tweeks their due, they will openly discuss what is going on and will allow you to have a good look under your car to check the work yourself.

I forgot to say, when I had my car resprayed, I only allowed them to have the bumpers and bonnet - even the insurance company had to accept this, the car stayed in the garage, I simple don't trust people I'm afraid, nothing against garages but that's how I feel.  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

I think your biggest problem Nic is the fact the car stands outside which basically makes things rust up and seize, the only suggestion I would make is completely soak all your pillow ball joints and running gear with WD40, I would say once a month. As for the rear chassis - I've already spoke about that, are you changing this before the ding day, if not I can't see the point of having a Geo done at Tweeks.

As for settings, I run -1.49 on the back and -1.52 on the front, which when I have it checked at Tweeks, hope that it's not changed.

Rob

[loadswine]

Ah man! That's a heck of a saga mate, hope you get that rear beam changed okay. That has to be the last thing surely!  s;) s;)
I'm always very nervous of letting any "professional" near my Roadster, so I do feel your pain. Think I'll be sticking with non adjustable arms for the forseeable future.  s;) s;)
Anything you want a hand with at ding day, just ask.  s:) s:)

[spit]

Keep plugging away Nic and we'll keep hiding the matches   s:D s:D  

Its been a grim time, and particularly cruel that the sweetest-handling '2 in the Club (IMHO) is having to be nursed back to health as a result of professional oversights.

All credit to you though Nic - I think most of us would have binned it by now.

Sooooo.... Lets find that beam, get it prepped into a thing of beauty, and put the fun back into your road miles.   s8) s8)

[alfajerry]

The only geo place i've ever seen get consistently good reviews is Wheels In Motion, but they are as far from you as they are from me.

[stargazer30]

Glad you got it sorted, pity it cost so much.  Most of us have been there.

Heres my 400mile old £200 a corner tyres on my focus ST.  After my local ford dealer did the tracking.




The small local garage I took it to after said they'd seen nothing like it and can't understand how they got it so wrong given they have much better kit than them.  I can its because they employee useless unqualified staff and pay them naff all.

The cost of the tyres wasn't what peed me off it was the fact I only found out on a wet country road, with my kids in the car when it went out of control!

Not the first time i've had trouble with this ford dealer, I've never gone back since nor will I ever again.

[PaddyDT]

Oh crap. Just had my clutch changed.
Clutch feels great.
The rear though, feels totally unsettled. Felt utterly sorted before.
It now shimmys over small bumps. Almost like a little squirm. Feels very unsettled. Front feels ok.
Thought it might be tyre pressures but no.
Any thoughts or advice.
Going to take it back in the first instance and insist they work out what the problem is.
If they don't it will be of to Mr T's to get an inspection and report. Then small claims if they won't make it good.

[Wabbitkilla]

A mate had his alignment 'corrected' at a dealership lately. Same ineptitude and lies.

Sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[mrzwei]

A slight drift but one of the issues I always had with basic simple front wheel alighment was that you had to be certain that the front wheels were in the 'straight ahead' position. Without that datum then nothing else follows.
I have done my own using an extending curtain rod, tape measure and a pencil (don't ask   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  ) but there was still the base issue.

Had the Saab laser checked two years ago and it comes out with the steering wheel off centre (from a tyre place I actually like dealing with). Took it back and they sorted it but should the tail really have to wag the dog?

[PaddyDT]

Cheers. Whilst I don't necessarily want to take it to Mr T, I'm not sure I'm going to have much choice.
Just did a crude check following having a closer look.
The back alignment is actually visually wrong.
Then used a cutting mat with a cm grid on it to confirm.
Holy crap!
Definite major toe in at the back, significantly more on the rear passenger side than on the drivers side.
What for the record is the default set up?
-1.5 camber right?
what about toe?
Don't know enough about geo so I do not know what is possible and what is not?
What might they have done to cause it?
Sorry for the questions but I need to get as informed as possible, as quickly as possible.
BTW its a facelift with factory fitted TTE exhaust and springs.

[Jaik]

At least you're finally back on track Nic, sounds like a pretty horrible experience!

Regarding a reliable place to have wheel geometry done in our end of the country, I've only heard good things about Drury Lane Services in Oldham and they come recommended by Tony at Wheels in Motion. That said, so does Nigel Lang!

[PaddyDT]

Ok. Sorted.
Phoned them and explained what was happening. Mentioned info from here.
Took it down this morning and the mechanic who fitted the clutch took a look, immediately apologised and when I came in the afternoon to pick it up talked through a few things. Official Toyota settings applied. Car handles better than before and the luk clutch feels great.
Going to get full geo done in a month just to be 100%.
Not great them getting it wrong in the first place but I guess that is what comes from using an independent that only sees these cars very rarely.
Great attitude when faced with their mistake.
Cheers

[Wabbitkilla]

Ok. Sorted.
Phoned them and explained what was happening. Mentioned info from here.
Took it down this morning and the mechanic who fitted the clutch took a look, immediately apologised and when I came in the afternoon to pick it up talked through a few things. Official Toyota settings applied. Car handles better than before and the luk clutch feels great.
Going to get full geo done in a month just to be 100%.
Not great them getting it wrong in the first place but I guess that is what comes from using an independent that only sees these cars very rarely.
Great attitude when faced with their mistake.
Cheers

Excellent news, and all credit to them for their attitude and doing the right thing.

[graham read]

Hi nick sounds like you are in a livving nightmere ??. Had my supra suspension set up by NIGEL'S IN BOLTON  all was good  not cheep, being i,ve been in the motor trade ,be it h.g.v.for 40 years good car garage's do come and go as do good mecanics i have a limmited  list of people with which i trust with my mr2 , a list of GOOD GARAGE,S TO TRUST would be a very very short list, i think but am guesing is it that there are not a lot of MR2 TRAINED MECHANICS ?? That,s my thoughts on the garages  p.s. hope to see you all at a sunny ding day .

[Wabbitkilla]

Time for an update of this thread.

Soo.... I had the Geo setup at Demon Tweeks and saw an immediate improvement ... alas it wasn't the end of my problems.
Ok, so I have now found that the BC coilovers do have adjustment built in for rear camber. It's actually very simple, where the two bolts mount the bottom of the strut to the hub, the upper hole is elongated allowing something like 3 degrees of adjustment. Technically it's "kingpin" angle, but it works almost the same way. So you don't need any clever adjustable camber arms, or Ingalls cam bolts to adjust rear camber ... just a pair of 19mm spanners and the equipment to measure camber (which I / we now have). Over the recent work Ste and I have done to the car we have been successful in setting up the camber as required. It's a bit of a tricky job, annoying and swear inducing but definitely d.i.y possible.

I was still having a "shimmy" on the nsr wheel, on uneven surfaces it was becoming more apparent that the wheel was behaving very independently of the suspension and control arms. The only reason I could imagine, would be a problem with one of the bushes in the hub. So I bought a nsr hub off ebay for £50 from a 2004 car, it arrived quickly and even has a decent disc attached. We fitted it yesterday and found yet more damage caused by the garage who fitted the clutch to the stub shaft that the hub mounts on. Anyway, I've now had a test drive today around 100 miles and it appears that the shimmy has been resolved, handling is much improved especially in the wet. Checking the old hub against the new the bottom bush, which happens to be a ball joint, was noticeably looser on my old hub, and I'm pretty sure when on the car I sensed a bit of slackness in one angle of rotation. So all appears much better, I just need to regain my confidence in the car, as you can imagine this has been going on for a long time now and I've been avoiding driving the car as it felt unsafe.

Another bit of good news and very welcome is that I have been contacted by Sam Smith of TFSmiths ... the first place I tried getting the geometry set up. He's a very pleasant chap and we've had some really constructive conversations about the garage and his business. I've made some suggestions about how the workshop technicians can co-operate with the customers, especially for a niche enthusiast car, or any sports car really and Sam has taken it all on board. It's a huge credit to him that he took the trouble to get in touch and discuss matters, and it shows a willingness to understand and accept opinion to improve the service his workshops offer. His attitude has impressed me so much that I would consider using the services of the workshop again should I need those services. The calibration of the equipment in the workshops is carried out by an independent agency and he will double-check to make sure the equipment is top-notch set up. A solidly decent chap   s:D s:D

[Mike_V]

Excellent news Nic  :-) :-) :-)